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#2403 – Andrew Gallimore Podcast Episode Description
Andrew Gallimore, PhD, is a chemical pharmacologist and neurobiologist. He is one of the world’s leading experts on psychedelics and the author of several books, including his most recent, “Death by Astonishment: Confronting the Mystery of the World’s Strangest Drug.”
www.buildingalienworlds.comhttps://www.youtube.com/c/alieninsecthttps://read.macmillan.com/lp/death-by-astonishment-9781250357755/
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#2403 – Andrew Gallimore Podcast Episode Top Keywords
#2403 – Andrew Gallimore Podcast Episode Summary
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#2403 – Andrew Gallimore Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
Speaker: 0
00:01
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
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00:03
The Joe Rogan experience.
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00:06
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Ai meh day. Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
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00:13
Joe Rogan, Andrew. How are you? Splendid. How the devil are you, sir?
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00:18
I think it’s the first time anyone’s answered splendid when I asked him how you doing. So, tell me about your book, man. Let me see the cover of it, first of all.
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00:30
Death by ai.
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00:31
Which is the famous Terrence McKenna quote. Right?
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00:34
Yes. He was awesome.
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00:35
You have to fear is death by astonishment.
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00:36
Exactly. Yeah.
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00:38
You know, the first time I did DMT, I literally heard his words. Do not give in to astonishment. I literally heard those words. It’s almost ai whatever’s over there wanted me to hear that. Sai I could, like, sink in or whatever ai I’d already heard it before, You know, and so they wanted to say it to me as well.
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00:59
It was very weird.
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01:00
Yeah. It’s sage advice, I think, because Oh,
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01:02
it’s the only way.
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01:03
It’s the only way.
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01:04
Because if you freak out, well, it’s ai that’s a good thing. It’s good advice in most of life. Mhmm. Like, don’t give in to the freak out.
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01:12
Yeah. Yeah.
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01:14
Confronting the mystery of the world’s strangest drug. How did you get involved in this? DMT? Yes.
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01:20
Oh, so you have to go back to my teenage years, really. Sai, I mean, I first heard about DMT through Terence McKenna,
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01:30
a friend. Like most of us.
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01:31
Yeah. Like most of us. But this was ai this was joint ai, the dawn of the Internet. Right.
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01:37
Long before you were a scientist.
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01:39
Long before I was a scientist. Right? So a friend gave me this magazine and had this interview with this bearded cheeky looking bearded fellow on the back called Terence McKenna. And, he spoke about this thing called DMT, which, of course, I didn’t know what that was. But, you know, the stories that he was telling that you were gonna meet these insectoid aliens and, trans dimensional machine owls jabbering in an indecipherable tongue and singing impossible objects into existence.
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02:11
I mean, it sounded ridiculous, but I was kind of I was hooked. I thought this is it. This is this is the most fucking incredible thing I’ve ever read in my life, and sai Ai was I was ai 15, 16 years old, and there was one computer in the school that was hooked up to the the World Wide Web.
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02:31
So all of,
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02:31
like What year was this?
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02:33
’96. Oh. Early.
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02:35
Giving my age away here, but
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02:37
Early days of the Internet.
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02:38
Early days. Yeah. Yeah. So I spent all my time just, you know, going on to AltaVista. You remember AltaVista?
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02:46
I do. Yeah. Ai didn’t I didn’t remember it till you brought it
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02:49
up. There we go. Yeah. I was just kind of trying to find out as much as I could about this, and that was what triggered my decision to study chemistry and pharmacology. My kind of academic journey was was triggered ai, I sana know you know, it’s such a cool thing, the idea that you can you can put a molecule in your bryden, and it it doesn’t just change how you feel, but it completely changes the entire structure of your reality.
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03:16
Mhmm. Your entire world is, is is obliterated and replaced with one that is completely alien, that has a relationship whatsoever to that normal waking world. That’s incredible. And I kind of wanted to try at least to understand how that actually works.
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03:34
Well, the weirdest part about that molecule is that your brain makes it. And so then you have to go ai, and what’s the purpose of that, and what are we really? Mhmm.
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03:46
You
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03:46
know, what is what is consciousness, and what is what is normal consciousness? What’s the purpose of it, And why does this chemical exist? Why does this molecule exist that’s produced by the brain that changes everything? And seems to transport you to a place that’s more real than this physical reality that we find ourselves in right now. Exactly.
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04:08
And that is kind of the great mystery. And I don’t I think most people who even people who’ve kind of learned about DMT, even ai. I mean, I I speak to scientists. I I engage with ai. Neuroscientists ai, and they will say, oh, this is just hallucination. This is just your brain kind of making it up. And I don’t think most scientists realize how confounding and how difficult to explain the DMT state is.
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04:38
I think it is one of, one of life’s true mysteries. It is not simple to explain, the DMT state.
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04:48
Do I think it’s
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04:48
almost irresponsible to try to explain it without experiencing it. It’s not gonna kill you. It’s not gonna kill you. It lasts fifteen minutes. Stop being a pussy. Right. Just do it, and then tell me it’s just a hallucination. That’s it. Just do do a big one. Three giant hits, come back, tell me this is normal. Yeah.
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05:06
Tell me this is just a freak out. Because it sure doesn’t seem like it, does it?
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No. And, I mean, that was what I mean Ai mean, Ai first learned about DMT, as I said, when I was 15 or 16, but my first experience was probably, well, close to a decade later. And I thought, before I took it, I thought I kind of knew what to expect. I mean, I’d listened to all the Terrence McKenna lectures I could find.
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05:33
I I’d read all the books. I read all the trip reports, and I thought, okay. I’m kind of ready for this. I kind of know what’s gonna happen. And I wasn’t ready, and I was shocked. I was, horrified in a sense. I was appalled. I mean, this was like, this is impossible. This was an impossible experience.
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I was confronted with an what seemed to me to be the the undeniable hand of some kind of intelligence. And not just any kind of intelligence, but a supremely advanced, ancient, and yet highly technological intelligence. And that was undeniable to me in those first few moments within sort of thirty seconds of that drug hitting my, my my brain, I knew that this is this is something else.
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And I was, at first, horrified. I was shocked. I just thought this what is this? And then when I finally kind of came back, I was I was I remember lying on my bed on my back, like shaking to my very bones. And all I could say was, oh, my fucking god. Because I was completely confounded, you ai. I mean, by then, I was a chemical pharmacologist. I was a scientist.
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06:49
I should I should Yeah. I should know, what’s going on here, but I had no idea what was going on sana I thought this is this is it. This is what I need to get to grips with.
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06:58
It also gives you a very, like, an an unusual understanding of the mechanisms that you interface with the world, but ai ego and logic and reasoning and rational thinking, it gives you, like, this understanding that those are kind of just these weird tools that you use to get ai, and you’re left without them in there, it just they they evaporate and dissolve. And then when you come back, you’re ai, what am I doing Yeah. The way I talk? Like, what what is my what’s my purpose of interacting with people?
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07:43
Like, what how much of the way I talk to people is this weird social dance, weird, ego, performative sort of, like, the way I structure sentences, the way I communicate, it all seemed so clunky when when you come back. And you just go, wow, we’re a mess. Like, collectively as a species, we’re so without some sort of awakening or some some kind of experience, some sort of a psychedelic profound breakthrough experience, like, you’re so hampered by your physical existence and this sort of ancient tribal programming that we have that that we’re running through this maze of life with.
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08:27
And you come back and you’re, god, this is so weird.
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08:30
Yeah. I think what DMT does is is show you that everything everything you thought you knew about how reality is structured and what’s what’s real and what’s not real, what is fantasy, what’s possible and what’s not possible. Yeah. All of that is is completely kind of extirpated in an instant, and you realize actually we don’t we don’t have a fucking clue about the way things really are.
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08:54
Ai think DMT just demonstrates that whether you understand it, whether we can we can really understand what’s going on in the brain and why and how this experience is even possible. It just shows you how little we really understand about the nature of of reality. So
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09:13
you’ve done some, like, legitimate studies with, DMT.
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09:19
Right. Yeah. I mean, I work, mainly ai of, I guess, you could sai, theoretically, in that I do more quantitative ram qualitative analysis of the DMT state, and try to understand try to use the tools of neuroscience to try to understand, how DMT elicits its its effects. So we can kind of get into if you want.
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09:45
If you wanna go really deep, I can give you a kind of a ai lesson
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09:50
Yeah.
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09:50
Please.
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09:50
Talk about. So so, you know, if you sana to understand DMT, we kind of have to start with the the basic observation. You know, before you take DMT, you are experiencing a world. Right? Whenever you’re awake and conscious, you’re experiencing a world, the normal waking world.
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This is the world that’s kind of familiar to us. When you take DMT, that world is transformed. It disappears. It’s obliterated and it’s replaced with one that is altogether stranger, shall we say. And so so what I want to do is kind of understand, first of all, how that happens, what’s actually going on in the brain to cause that transition, and why that happens.
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10:34
And you can’t do that unless you have a decent understanding of the normal waking world. So what is the normal waking world? It’s a model. It’s an interface generated by your brain. So you have this world building machinery on the outer layer of your brain called the cortex, and this is generating your world all the time.
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All the features of the world that you’re experiencing are represented within, the cortex. And that applies whether you are just normal waking life, it applies in dreaming, it even applies in the psychedelic state. The world you experience is is always constructed as a model, by the brain.
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11:24
And so what that means is that psychedelics, what they’re doing is they’re meh they’re perturbing the brain. They’re manipulating the brain, and altering that model. Now for example, with, let’s say, psilocybin from magic mushrooms, psilocybin binds to this receptor in the brain called the five HT two a receptor, which you’re probably familiar with, the cis serotonin receptor.
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11:50
And so this is a it’s, it’s called an excitatory receptor. It stimulates these neurons, so which your cortex is constructed from, makes them more excitable, makes them more likely, to fire and share information between, to other neurons. You get this kind of loosening up of the the world model that your brain is constructing.
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12:12
So the walls start to breathe, objects seem to kind of change their ai, everything becomes more fluid and dynamic. And if you put someone into an MRI machine, for example, you can actually see that. In the normal waking state, you can see the neural activity. It’s it’s dynamic, but it’s it’s kind of organized and well orchestrated.
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12:34
You give someone psilocybin, let’s say, or LSD, and you start to see the activity becoming sort of more random and fluid. So you get this this state of slightly increased disorder, as if the the the ai of the tuning dial between order and disorder in the brain has been slightly nudged towards disorder.
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12:56
But then with DMT, something remarkable happens. In the the early stages of the experience, you get this, kind of quite chaotic state suggesting that the brain is entering this more disordered, state. But then ai kind of collapses into this brand new order. So you go from the order of the normal waking world to this disordered state and then you collapse into this completely different type of order.
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13:27
So the brain is effectively constructing an entirely different model of reality. It’s no longer the normal waking world model, which acts as kind of an interface, with the environment, but it’s constructing a a completely different world model.
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13:44
When you say constructing, why do you use that term? What why do you use the brain is constructing?
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13:51
Because you’re well, okay. So so if you think about, you know, how does the brain interact with the how do we interact with the environment using our senses. Right? So light information comes through the eyes, the retina, and it stimulates the the very back of the brain. You have an area oh.
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Oh, you brought slides.
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14:10
I brought slides.
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14:11
Here we go.
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14:12
Yeah. Maybe the next one, Jamie, is a bit easier to see. Here we go. So at the right the back of the brain here, you have an area called v one, which is the primary visual cortex. That’s your interface with the world. Sensory information comes and ai. It activates patterns of neural activity in v one, but it’s very very messy.
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14:31
It’s like lines and patches of color and, you know, lines moving in certain directions. It’s a mess. Right? It’s very noisy. It’s very messy. It’s incredibly dynamic.
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14:40
It doesn’t make any sense. And so what your brain does is it has another level above v one, that kind of has a bird’s eye view, and it’s looking for patterns, within this neural activity in this lowest level. So it’s looking for saying, oh, those lines kind of could be a triangle or this could be a circle.
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15:00
It’s trying to find patterns to try generate, order from this messy level in v one.
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15:08
Can I ask you this?
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15:08
How do
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15:09
we know it does that?
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15:10
That’s a good question. Well, there are a number of things. Sai the earliest evidence came from a, one of the earliest forms of evidence came from a guy called Ai Penfield. Are you familiar with? No. So Wilder Penfield, he was interested in, treating epilepsy. And he invented something called the Montreal Procedure, where he would remove a part of the brain that was the focus of epileptiform activity.
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15:39
The idea being that it would kind of cure someone’s epilepsy. But before he could do that, of course, he needs to make sure that he wasn’t removing, you know, important parts for someone’s function. So what he would do is he would cut the top of their skull off when they’re still away. Yeah.
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15:59
And kind of expose their brain, and then he would zap different parts of their brain and say, you know, what’s happening?
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16:06
Ai god. Can you imagine? Isn’t that crazy that that’s how we have to find out what works? We have to like, it’s the aliens probably look at us and go, oh ai god. You guys are still doing that?
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16:20
Yes. Nowadays, things have moved on a bit. Right?
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16:23
I’m sure.
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16:24
But I
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16:24
mean, this is not that long
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16:25
ago. Right?
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16:25
How long ago is this?
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16:26
Nineteen fifties. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
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16:28
Not even a hundred years. Right. Exactly. Ago, they were literally taking your skull and turning it into a hat. They were the cap off and just, okay. Yeah. Let’s see what this does. Exactly.
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16:38
They would zap it, and what he noticed is that when he would zap right at the back of the brain, so this is the this primary visual cortex that’s receiving information for an environment, they would this his patients would say, oh, I see flashes of ai. I see lines. I see colors. It would very simple kind of things. Mhmm.
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16:55
But then he would move forward, to kind of higher levels that we know now are kind of high levels, and then they’d say, oh, I see triangles, or I see an orange circle, things like this. And he’d keep going higher and higher, and then they’d say, oh, I see people, or I see cops and robbers.
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17:12
And then right at the top, you reach an area called the hippocampus, which you may have heard of involved in memory. Mhmm. And the hippocampus basically keeps an eye. It’s a bird’s eye view of the all of this world model your brain is constructing, and it’s kind of following and looking for, you know, interesting or important patterns.
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17:33
And when he stimulated that, his patients would actually report memories. They would say, oh, I hear somebody talking to me. You know, this happened this morning when I was leaving the house. My mother was telling me something about, you know, you’ve got your coat on backwards or something like this.
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17:51
So you have these levels of the cortex that go from very simple, kind of very fundamental, low level, visual data at the bottom end. And then at the very top, you’ve got kind of higher order things such as, you know, faces or people. This is sitting at the top. Now interesting, have you ever when you are dreaming ai. So when you let’s think about dreaming for a second. It’s quite instructive, I think.
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18:22
When you’re dreaming, right, the brain is actually constructing the world in basically the same way as it does when you’re awake. Dreams are kind of selective simulations of the waking world. The difference, of course, is that there’s no sensory inputs. So if you scan someone’s brain while they’re having a dream, you’ll see that this back of the brain, this primary visual cortex is ai of quiet.
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18:48
The brain is kind of using what it’s learned about building the world in the normal waking state to construct, the dream world. Sai the dream world is built in exact it’s built from exactly the same stuff, as the normal waking world. However, this this interesting features, if you’ve in a dream, have you ever, tried to use your cell phone? No. Not not many people have.
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19:14
What about read a book in a dream?
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19:17
I don’t think so. One one thing I have learned to do is to I think I saw it in a movie. If you knock on a door, you’ll realize that you’re in a dream.
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19:26
Is this waking life?
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19:27
I don’t remember what movie it was. But the it was a a guy who was instructing how to lucid ram.
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19:35
Mhmm.
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19:36
And that if you make a habit of walking through a doorway in your home, and every time you walk in a through a doorway in your home, tap on the door the doorway. Knock on it with your hand and say, am I awake? Knock, knock, knock. And then you’ll get it in a habit of doing that every time you go through a doorway.
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19:54
And if you go through a doorway in your dream, you’ll do it. You’ll say, am I awake? And then as you go to knock, knock, knock, you’re like, oh, shah. I’m dreaming.
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20:02
There we go.
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20:03
And then you ai, and if you don’t give into astonishment, you can maintain that dream.
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20:09
Maintain that thing.
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20:10
Right? Yeah. That’s the thing. It’s like, oh my god. I’m dreaming. I can’t believe this. And then you wake up. Yeah. You get too freaked out and you wake up. But if you don’t do it, ai I’ve only been able to do this a few times because I don’t really knock. I did it for a while after the movie. Mhmm. I saw the movie.
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20:22
I tried it
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20:23
for a while,
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20:23
and I did have a dream like that where I went through a doorway and I sai, am I dreaming? And I’m like, oh meh god, I’m dreaming. And then I I realized I was dreaming. And then I ai, like, flying. I was doing a lot of weird stuff, but then it went away. And then I stopped doing it. Yes. Ai I’ve always been, like, why don’t I practice lucid dreaming?
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20:38
Ai I’m I’ve always I thought about it, like, a dozen times at least. Like, why don’t I just get a book on lucid dreaming and really try to attempt to learn the techniques, and and I never do.
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20:48
Yeah. It takes commitment. But now there’s actually a simpler way of that kind of reality tests. A simpler way now is to just get out your cell phone occasionally, open up the the calculator, and do do a few calculations and just check everything’s working. Mhmm. Right? Or open up a book, and and try to read it.
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21:08
Because the thing about the dream world is, again, just like the normal waking world, it’s it’s it’s constructed over ai of levels of a hierarchy from the highest level models. So your brain can construct a high level model of a, a cell phone quite easily. But all of the fine details of how it functions, that’s all represented at the lowest level of the cortex. It’s really dependent on sensory inputs.
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21:34
So you can dream of having your mobile phone in your hand and doing with it, but as soon as you try to do something, with it, through actually your brain has to kind of construct that function, and it it can’t do it unless it has access to sensory inputs. And so that’s how you can test if you’re lucid dreaming.
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21:55
Okay.
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21:55
Yeah. And and which is why the DMT state is so fascinating is because it’s it’s nothing like the dream state. People say, you know, that that perhaps DMT is released, when you’re dreaming and that it actually triggers. I mean, this this goes back to, the nineteen eighties. There’s a theoretical paper published by a guy called Jace Calloway, and he said, oh, maybe DMT could be produced, during REM sleep because it’s closely related to melatonin structurally, both kind of tryptamine structures.
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22:29
But when you analyze the the phenomenology, you know, the actual experience of DMT, it’s nothing like dreaming. Dreaming is generally the brain making use of what it knows about how to construct the world in the waking state, and doing so in the dream state. So that’s why if you ask people, you know, that many studies have on dreaming have shown that people, when they dream, they dream about people.
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22:58
They dream about dogs and cats. They dream about, you know, the the amount of time they spend talking on the telephone or watching TV is actually similar to what it is in waking life. Sai dreaming is more like a selective simulation of the waking world. It’s not that difficult to explain, because your brain ram the moment you were born, your brain was learning to construct the world as a model of the environment.
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23:23
This is this world is the only world that your brain knows how to build or should know how to build. And meh, when you introduce this molecule dimethyltryptamine into the brain, the brain suddenly starts constructing ai, crystalline, clarity, perfectly finessed, staggeringly complex narrative complexity, that I think is very difficult to explain.
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24:03
There’s no simple explanation of why the brain should should should suddenly become capable of constructing these worlds unless unless, and this is where things become more contentious, we are indeed interfacing with some kind of intelligence. That’s my that’s the explanation that makes sense to meh, is that somehow DMT is gating access to some kind of that the flow of information from some kind of intelligent agent that is directing, the DMT experience.
Speaker: 1
24:36
So it’s not a sensed world. It’s not a kind of a dreamt world. It’s actually a directed world. I always say you don’t break through, into the DMT world. The DMT world breaks through into you. It’s like this intelligent agent has commandeered your neural machinery, the world building machinery of your brain Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
24:55
And is is directing, everything that you see. It has complete control.
Speaker: 2
25:01
It’s interesting that you use the word construct rather than observe. Sai you’re using you’re using terminology that seems to indicate that you believe that you’re constructing reality.
Speaker: 1
25:13
Yes.
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25:15
Not that you’re just observing reality.
Speaker: 1
25:18
No. Because it’s not if you think about perception in the same way, like, looking like a video camera, just take taking imagery images of the world, that’s not how it works. The brain must actively construct a model of of of the environment. That’s all what it’s always doing.
Speaker: 1
25:39
It’s always constructing a model, and it is constantly using that model to make predictions about, the way that kind of predictions about the the evolution of sensory information. It’s constantly saying, okay, if this is if this model that I’m currently using is good, then this should happen next.
Speaker: 1
26:01
This is the pattern of sensory information that I should receive next. So if I, for example, move this bottle of water across your your perceptual field, even if you close your eyes, you could probably tell me where the water’s gonna be in a couple of seconds because it’s it’s moving.
Speaker: 1
26:17
Your brain has a model of the water, and it is using that to make predictions. And it’s only when something surprising happens, you know, if the water if I do this and your brain detects, that there’s something its predictions start to fail, and you get these error signals, and these are what flow into the brain, and the brain uses then to kind of update its model until the errors decline.
Speaker: 1
26:43
So you’re never you never have direct access to the world or to the environment, should I say. You only have direct access to this model that your brain is constructing.
Speaker: 2
26:53
That’s where it gets weird. Mhmm. Because I’m assuming your model and my model are very similar. Right. That would be if we could ever get to a a point where we could at least temporarily enter into someone else’s consciousness and see how they see the world Yeah. I think we’re gonna get a lot of answers. We’re gonna be like, oh, you guys live in a totally different fucking world.
Speaker: 2
27:16
No wonder why you think we should be communists and we should
Speaker: 1
27:21
you know, like Well, it’s true.
Speaker: 2
27:22
Yeah. I mean, every whatever your chemical makeup is, your life experience, your biology, whatever contributing factors, I I’m a I always assume that your construction of the world is the same as my construction of the world. But every now and then, I’ll get a text message from a friend about some world event, and their take is so crazy. Then Ai just go to go, wow.
Speaker: 2
27:45
This person is living in a completely different world than me.
Speaker: 1
27:48
Ai mean, they are.
Speaker: 2
27:48
They are?
Speaker: 1
27:48
I mean, yeah. I mean, that their bryden, the structure of their brain, the organization of their neural networks, and it’s all different in everyone. Everyone has a unique bryden. And so in a sense, everyone has to construct an entirely unique model of reality, but we agree on certain things.
Speaker: 1
28:01
We reach this kind of consensus about what we call things, but we, you know, if I point to, you know, something that that Television. Yeah. I can say that, oh, this I can describe the colors. I can describe the people. But again, we’re all using our own personally constructed model.
Speaker: 2
28:16
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
28:17
And that’s what we experience.
Speaker: 2
28:19
Well, that’s what’s weird, you know, because we again, it’s just this assumption.
Speaker: 3
28:24
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
28:24
So your your take is that when you’re dreaming, you’re trying to construct this world and that you don’t really have the tools to leave a book where you can read, you don’t have the tools to use a calculator, you just know what a calculator is. And so if you’re in in the absence of an actual calculator, your brain’s not capable of creating one.
Speaker: 1
28:46
Yeah. So so so again, you have at the the highest level, you have a cal a calculator model, which is kind of a broad idea of a calculator. It doesn’t have all the details. All the details are at the lower end. Actually, we can show this. Sorry, Jamie. Can I use Jamie like this?
Speaker: 2
29:03
Sure. Anytime.
Speaker: 1
29:05
Can you go to the picture of Margaret Thatcher?
Speaker: 0
29:07
Yeah. The problem I was gonna bring this up in some way. I think it’s supposed to play a video maybe.
Speaker: 1
29:11
Not yet.
Speaker: 0
29:12
Well, the videos don’t seem to be playing in the keynote. There’s three or four of them, and none of them play.
Speaker: 1
29:17
Oh, really?
Speaker: 0
29:18
Yeah. I figured you’re gonna get here at some point.
Speaker: 1
29:21
Okay.
Speaker: 0
29:21
I don’t know how to it’s just just sai
Speaker: 2
29:25
Is it formatted for Windows?
Speaker: 0
29:26
No. Let me go. Oh, okay. Okay.
Speaker: 1
29:28
Go back. Go back.
Speaker: 0
29:29
I didn’t know that was gonna happen.
Speaker: 1
29:30
Okay. Okay.
Speaker: 0
29:30
So
Speaker: 1
29:31
Yeah. Perfect. Alright. Okay. So go back one. K. This is kind of really interesting.
Speaker: 2
29:36
Right? Yeah. I’ve seen this.
Speaker: 1
29:38
You’ve seen this. Right?
Speaker: 2
29:39
This is really with Margaret Thatcher, but I’ve seen it with other faces.
Speaker: 1
29:42
Yeah. So the original was with Margaret Thatcher.
Speaker: 2
29:44
Alright. Let’s explain it to people that are just listening because
Speaker: 1
29:47
there’s
Speaker: 2
29:47
still quite a lot of people.
Speaker: 1
29:48
So this is called the Thatcher effect. So when you’re looking at this image of Margaret Thatcher or anyone, your brain is constructing a model of this person. Ai? A model of their their face. And as I said, it’s constructed over a ai. So you have the overall idea, the overall concept of Margaret Thatcher. Right?
Speaker: 1
30:07
The whole face. The whole thing.
Speaker: 2
30:09
Right.
Speaker: 1
30:09
And then you have a lower level, you have the eyes and the mouth and the nose, and they’re kind of separate. And then go going further still within the eyes, you’ve got circles and patches of color and all this stuff. And right at the bottom, you have this really messy system of lines and things that don’t make any sense. Right?
Speaker: 1
30:26
And you can actually show how this hierarchy is constructed. At the moment, it’s it just looks like Margaret Thatcher, and it’s you can’t really break it down. But if you flip over like this so just leave it there for a second, Jamie, please. Yeah. So now you see, what we’ve done is we basically we’ve weakened this highest level model, right, of the whole face.
Speaker: 1
30:50
Because the brain isn’t very good at building models of faces that are upside down. Right?
Speaker: 2
30:56
Okay.
Speaker: 1
30:57
And so this looks there’s something wrong with the image clearly.
Speaker: 2
31:01
But it looks like Margaret Thatcher up there.
Speaker: 1
31:03
It looks like Margaret Thatcher, but it’s actually, what’s happened is the whole face has been flipped over, but the mouth and the eyes are actually the correct way up.
Speaker: 2
31:11
Right.
Speaker: 1
31:12
Right? But to the brain in this configuration, it’s not that surprising because the eyes kind of look as they should. The mouth looks as it should. You’re seeing the whole image in its pieces, if you like.
Speaker: 2
31:23
Right.
Speaker: 1
31:24
You’re seeing that lower level fragments. And it’s only when you flip it that it becomes Horrific. Horrific. Right? So now you’ve reestablished that high level model, of Margaret Thatcher, and the brain goes, fuck. This is completely wrong. And this is why you get that that it’s immediately obvious.
Speaker: 2
31:43
With the upside down eyes and the upside down mouth, it looks completely insane. She looks like a demon.
Speaker: 1
31:48
She looks like a demon. Right. Yeah. Which is
Speaker: 2
31:50
really weird.
Speaker: 1
31:50
Ai is really weird. It’s called the Thatcher effect.
Speaker: 2
31:53
It’s just was she the original person that they used this idea? Exactly.
Speaker: 0
31:57
That’s why. Who came
Speaker: 2
31:57
up with this?
Speaker: 1
31:58
Who Oh, good question. But this is fairly old now. I think at least a couple of decades old.
Speaker: 2
32:04
It’s sai funny that they figured that out. That’s sana great insight into how the mind works. Because the upside down Thatcher with the upside down with the correct eyeballs and mouth, the second one, Jamie. That does not look crazy at all. Yeah. That’s what’s so weird about the third image. Because the third image really looks ai. Like, if it was a monster movie Yeah.
Speaker: 2
32:26
And then someone got bitten by a zombie and then that was what they looked like and then they came running after you be like, oh, fuck. She got bit.
Speaker: 1
32:32
Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker: 2
32:33
Her eyeballs are upside down. Ram mouth is upside down because that’s what it looks like. Yeah. Weird. Like the for people listening, the big teeth, you’re above teeth, they’re they’re below and the little tiny teeth are above and the eyeballs are the eyelids, the top part are on the bottom, and it really looks like a monster.
Speaker: 1
32:51
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
32:51
And it’s weird that it looks like a monster because it looks so damn normal upside down.
Speaker: 1
32:55
Yeah. Exactly. Weird. Sai, yeah. It’s just it’s it’s it’s revealing this Yeah. Ai this structure of of this world model that your brain ai always constructing, you see.
Speaker: 2
33:06
That’s a good way to describe why it’s constructing rather than observing. Right. That’s clearly an example of your constructing normalcy and that upside down face. It’s not normal at all.
Speaker: 1
33:18
Not normal at all. Right.
Speaker: 2
33:19
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So do we know what’s going on when you’re dreaming? Is it potentially is there a release of DMT? Because DMT is exogeny it’s produced in the brain. It’s produced in the liver and the lungs. Right? It’s produced in a lot of other arya. So we know the body makes it. Right? And we also know that melatonin plays a role and there’s a lot of other things going on.
Speaker: 2
33:43
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Speaker: 2
34:08
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Speaker: 1
34:24
Well, so I think the problem is, as I sai, is that, yes, it’s possible biochemically. Now the pineal gland is what people often refer to. Right?
Speaker: 2
34:38
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
34:39
Because the pineal gland has this long history and mystical traditions, the seat of the soul, the third eye, all this kind of stuff. So everyone wants DMT to produce to be produced by the pineal gland.
Speaker: 2
34:51
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
34:52
The problem is is, first of all, is that the pineal gland is very small. It’s about the size of the end of my my pinky, and it’s designed or evolved to produce nanograms, micrograms of melatonin, very small amounts you need. So the idea that this gland can suddenly start pumping out milligrams of DMT to achieve a kind of psychedelic state in the dream state is is quite an ask.
Speaker: 1
35:18
There have there have been some studies or one study in particular actually looked at DMT levels. So we’ve known since the nineteen fifties that DMT is produced ai, is a product of mammalian physiology, and it’s produced by humans. In in those days, they ai to kind of pin schizophrenia on DMT. Right.
Speaker: 1
35:42
The idea that if there was some fault, some problem with tryptamine metabolism, instead of producing serotonin, which is five hydroxytryptamine, the brain could instead start producing elevated levels of n n dimethyltryptamine or DMT. And so they started looking for differences in DMT levels in, psychotic patients, schizophrenic patients versus normal people.
Speaker: 1
36:06
And there have been more than a 100 studies that have looked at levels of DMT in the in the blood, in urine, in cerebrospinal ai, but there’s there’s no convincing, consistent evidence, that suggests that DMT is, the cause of sai or dreaming, in fact.
Speaker: 2
36:28
Can I in endogenous production Yeah? What what are the what’s the mechanism? Like, what is producing it?
Speaker: 1
36:35
Okay. So it’s actually produced from tryptophan. So DMT is an alkaloid. The and alkaloids are all produced from amino acids. So tryptophan, is first, converted to tryptamine. This is called decarboxylation. Remove a carbon dioxide molecule, and you got tryptamine. Mhmm. Now here, you can go in a number of different directions.
Speaker: 1
36:56
You can go to serotonin, which is five hydroxytryptamine, or you can go to DMT. You just simply add two methyl groups, two carbon atoms.
Speaker: 2
37:06
And sai what is adding these things?
Speaker: 1
37:08
So there’s an enzyme called, indolethlamine n methyltransferase ram INMT for short. This is the key, enzyme for DMT production. It adds these two groups, these methyl groups to tryptamine, which is produced from tryptophan, to produce DMT.
Speaker: 2
37:27
And tryptophan is produced ram?
Speaker: 1
37:29
So it’s tryptophan is one of the essential amino acids. So it’s it is something you consume.
Speaker: 2
37:34
Do you do people take tryptophan as a dietary supplement in order to increase the potency of their experiences?
Speaker: 1
37:42
Some people do. I I don’t think it would have an appreciable effect. But Ai mean, people take tryptophan for for for lots of reasons.
Speaker: 2
37:51
Sai this process, what makes you think that this is a size dependent process? Because if just because this gland is so tiny, why can’t it do it? Okay. Well, there’s
Speaker: 1
38:03
a number of things. First of all, it’s it’s it’s just there’s orders of magnitude. I mean, a gland that is designed to produce nanograms or micrograms of something to ask it to produce a thousand times more of an entirely different molecule is quite an ask. However, that’s not the only reason.
Speaker: 1
38:21
But there’s actually been a study recently in the last, I think, three or four years that looked at DMT levels in, rat brains in real time. They’re not in humans, but in rat brains. They actually have a technique now called microdialysis where they can basically measure an awake an an awake moving, you know, normally behaving ram.
Speaker: 1
38:44
They can measure the levels of DMT in its brain. And what they found was that the levels of DMT, first of all, was surprisingly high. So similar levels to things like serotonin and dopamine.
Speaker: 2
39:00
Which is unusual.
Speaker: 1
39:01
Which is yes. Which makes you think that it must have some kind of function. But importantly, they also in some rats, they removed the pineal gland. They kind of cut it out and found that it didn’t affect. So we don’t need the pineal, in other words. All brain cells, all neurons can probably produce, DMT.
Speaker: 1
39:20
The lungs can almost certainly produce DMT.
Speaker: 2
39:23
Why do you think that the pineal gland had this role in ancient mysticism? Why why did they have this appreciation of it as being this very sacred organ that I mean, it is I mean, it’s the Ai of Horus. Right?
Speaker: 1
39:39
Right.
Speaker: 2
39:39
I mean, certainly looks like it. It look like the Eye of Horus looks exactly like a cross section of the pineal gland.
Speaker: 1
39:46
Yeah. I mean, it sits right in the center of the brain as well.
Speaker: 2
39:49
Right.
Speaker: 1
39:50
So it and it looks it’s kind of unusual as you say. It looks like a real tiny pine cone.
Speaker: 2
39:55
How did they where did they come up? It’s whenever this I mean, it’s it’s very easy to dismiss, like, ancient mysticism and ancient ideas of what what things are sacred about, you know, the human body, and what what what areas of the mind are producing these in the third eye.
Speaker: 2
40:12
Yeah. That’s how it was always described. But Ai I don’t want to I I it’s too weird. So Ai I I go, wait a minute. Before you dismiss because it’s fun to dismiss things, like, oh, they didn’t know anything. Like, how do we know that they weren’t on to something?
Speaker: 2
40:28
Like, maybe there is a role that that plays in not normal DMT production, but in the big dump that you get before you die. Right.
Speaker: 1
40:39
When
Speaker: 2
40:39
you have a near death experience Yeah. Maybe that has to be maybe that’s the kill switch. Maybe that’s the big dump switch. You know what I mean? Like, if
Speaker: 1
40:48
No one’s ever put it like that before.
Speaker: 0
40:49
Because if you
Speaker: 2
40:49
think about it’s the seat of the soul. Right? If if that is where the soul is, like, connected, that’s where the soul is, like, anchored into this physical reality. And if you’re gonna die, if you have a near death experience, something has gotta go, ai, boys. This is not a drill. Let her go.
Speaker: 2
41:09
And then, I mean, that’s what a lot of people think is happening. Yeah. Yeah. When people have near death experiences. There’s a lot of very bizarre aspects of it, but one of them is the uniformity of their experiences. There’s a lot of very similar experiences, very similar.
Speaker: 2
41:25
You know, you have with anything, you have variables that people may or may not be adding on to their own because people love to tell a good tyler, you know, and why miss out on a chance when you’ve had a near death experience that was profound to maybe add a little Like,
Speaker: 0
41:47
I
Speaker: 2
41:53
Like, I I have a friend who was in a car accident and had a near death experience and said that when they came back, they had no fear. Like, for that moment, they can fear now. Ai, no fear at all about ai. No fear at all about ai. And that this was this very weird transformative journey where they went to another place, and then they returned.
Speaker: 0
42:14
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
42:15
But it was very real. It felt very to the point where all their ai, even about the car accident, being knocked unconscious, and all that stuff all went away.
Speaker: 1
42:24
Yeah. I think the the the the near death experience connection to DMT is is very interesting because Rick Strassman, of course, in the nineties, when he wrote DMT the spirit molecule, he hypothesized that in fact, the point of death, DMT is released by the pineal, and it kind of acts as the conduit by which you you the soul exits the body and enters the afterlife.
Speaker: 1
42:47
Yeah. And of course, that was, you know, largely speculation. It was just a hypothesis. But in recent years, there’s been some really fascinating work showing that DMT actually, if you if you take some neurons, a culture of neurons for example, brain cells, which are very sensitive to oxygen levels.
Speaker: 1
43:08
So if you deprive neurons of oxygen, they die very quickly. This is why strokes can be so rapidly devastating. If the brain becomes deprived of blood, and oxygen, then the brain cells start to die. But in the presence of DMT, they live a lot longer. So they’re ai of protecting the the the brain against hypoxia. Now, when does the brain enter a hypoxic state? During the dying process. Right?
Speaker: 1
43:35
This is when as your cardiovascular system starts to collapse, your respiratory system collapses, the brain becomes deprived of bryden, and this is precisely the time when you want the brain to be flooded with DMT just in case you come back to protect the brain, ram, the the lack of oxygen.
Speaker: 1
43:55
So that suggests a clear and obvious link. And if you kill rats actually again, I was referring to this microdialysis experiment. If you kill a rat whilst measuring DMT levels, well, as the rat dies, the DMT levels spike. Sai it suggests that the rat is also maybe having Tripping balls.
Speaker: 1
44:15
An actual death experience. Yeah. I wonder
Speaker: 2
44:18
if they come back as a person. Yeah. Ai
Speaker: 1
44:22
but it does suggest. Right? It does suggest that there is maybe some link there. But what it doesn’t explain, of course, is ai you would need why this molecule would be ai this molecule would be so profoundly visionary.
Speaker: 2
44:36
Right.
Speaker: 1
44:36
That’s still a kind of a mystery, you know. Are you being
Speaker: 0
44:41
kind
Speaker: 1
44:41
of given access to wherever you go Right. After death? You know, is is there a vision of of what happens to you later on?
Speaker: 2
44:49
That’s it. But the question to me my question rather was not it’s are we sure it’s a vision, or is it a gateway? Or is it are you entering into a nonphysical space that has its own laws, that it’s very different, but it is a reality? And it’s not that it’s a vision, that not that it’s a hallucination or visionary representation or that you’re even constructing this reality, but you’re you’re entering into a completely different dimension that has laws that are very different than the dimension that we find ourselves in right now.
Speaker: 1
45:24
Okay. So what I think is that Ai don’t think with DMT that you’re going anywhere as such. I think, you know, as I said, the the world you experience is always represented in the brain, and that must apply Sai think in the DMT state. If you if you’re experiencing an altered world, there must be some repute representation of that within your cortical machinery, within your cortex, within your brain.
Speaker: 1
45:54
I think that has to be the case. However, I don’t think, and I think it’s a great mystery is is how the brain is actually capable of constructing that on its own In the same way that the brain constructs the dream world, because the brain knows how to construct the waking world.
Speaker: 1
46:11
So it’s it’s simply using its stored models. The same with hallucinations. If you look at case reports of hallucinations in ai, you go through the psychiatric literature, the vast majority of hallucinations are normal appearing, normal sized people, normal animals. It’s like waking dreams if you like. Mhmm. But with DMT, it’s not. Your the brain is somehow constructing a world that has no relationship whatsoever. Nothing is taken Right.
Speaker: 1
46:38
From the normal waking world. It’s like the brain is is suddenly has switched to speaking a language that it never learned. And I think that suggests that actually what’s happening is you’re not going somewhere, but you are in this more kind of fluid and dynamic state that psychedelics induce.
Speaker: 1
46:56
You’re kind of you’re making the brain much more sensitive to being commandeered. I think it’s a Ai think what you’re seeing, is what this intelligent agent, as I recall, as I tend to call it. I don’t call it spirits or aliens or anything like that. I think there’s some it’s clear to me that there’s some kind of intelligence, and that intelligence is interacting with our brain in some way, and and showing us kind of what it wants us to see if you like.
Speaker: 2
47:27
Does that assume that consciousness resides in the brain though? Or is I mean, when you take into account the possibility of consciousness being something that the brain tunes into and that it forms its own version of reality based on its biology, its life experiences, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker: 2
47:47
But that it is just a radio, and it is just forming its version of consciousness, but that it it is actually tuning into consciousness. And that consciousness is sort of a universal thing that exists not just in people, but maybe in other life forms as well, certainly animals and maybe plants.
Speaker: 2
48:08
So one of the weird things about people who trip, I’m sure you know this, is they experience communication from plants. Ai tree hugging becomes a real thing.
Speaker: 1
48:18
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
48:19
Like, tree hugging is a very different thing. It’s like Yeah. Oh, you’re alive. Hello. You know, and we know that trees and plants in general, ai, especially house plants, when people interact with them, they grow better. They they they’re healthier plants. Like, you can prove it. It’s interesting. Play music for them. Communicate with them. Say nice things.
Speaker: 2
48:43
We also know that plants in, like, abusive households or people arya alcoholics and cigarettes smoke. They’re they’re gonna do terrible.
Speaker: 1
48:49
Yeah. I think that as soon as I start talking about first of all, I I I think consciousness is absolutely fundamental. I don’t think that the brain generates consciousness. I think consciousness is in some way the only thing that really exists. You know, I think that it is the it’s the absolute ultimate reality is consciousness itself.
Speaker: 0
49:10
Do you
Speaker: 2
49:10
think everything is conscious? I think everything is consciousness. Everything is consciousness. Interesting. Yeah. Do you think that there’s a state that maybe inanimate objects achieve that is very different than our interpretation of consciousness, but yet they’re still conscious?
Speaker: 1
49:30
I think in in in voodoo Which
Speaker: 2
49:33
is ai, because I say this because Jamie has OJ Simpson’s golf clubs. And I feel like they have, some consciousness attached to them.
Speaker: 1
49:41
I mean
Speaker: 2
49:42
Ai mean It’s probably bad. Right?
Speaker: 0
49:43
You know, the films didn’t exist in the nineties. They’re, like, only ten years old.
Speaker: 2
49:47
That’s bad voodoo, bro. You got
Speaker: 1
49:51
Yeah. You gotta watch out. I think, you know, what do we mean by when something’s conscious? In in in Buddhism, they have this the they have this idea of things that exist from their own side, which I really like. From their own ai. Yes. So you exist from your own side. In other words, presumably, I can never prove it. There is someone, a subjective perspective there Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
50:16
That’s actually model you know, that’s experiencing me and I’m and and Jamie as well. Everyone has it’s like a perspective. You know, I exist from my own ai. Whereas does this skull exist from its own side? Is is does it have its own unique perspective? I would say probably not, but I don’t know.
Speaker: 0
50:32
And
Speaker: 1
50:32
consciousness is kind of like the interaction, you know, reality kind of emerges by by the interaction of all
Speaker: 0
50:38
of these perspective, these conscious agents, if you like. Everyone all
Speaker: 1
50:38
these points of speak conscious agents, if you like. Everyone all these points of subjective perspective. Ai think that’s probably closer to what ultimate reality is. But I think it’s very difficult. You know, I’m a neuroscientist, so I focus on not consciousness per se, but on what I can get my teeth into.
Speaker: 1
51:00
I can get my teeth into the content, into the structure, the actual meat and potatoes
Speaker: 2
51:07
Right.
Speaker: 1
51:09
Of never used that phrase before. The meat yeah. The meat and potatoes of the DMT experience, things that I can talk about and analyze. That’s you know, I’m what I’m trying to do, I think, is I’m I’m not trying to tell people what I think DMT is. I’m just trying to convince them that it’s not what they think it is, that it’s not just hallucination, that it’s not these are not dreams, that kind of thing.
Speaker: 2
51:33
I really feel ai to be talking about the subject, you should experience it. Like I said before, I think it’s so silly that there’s very serious people that are academics, that are brilliant people, that are dancing around what this thing is without doing it.
Speaker: 1
51:50
Right.
Speaker: 2
51:50
I’ve never met anybody who’s done it who comes back and goes,
Speaker: 1
51:54
Yeah. No. It’s impossible to do it.
Speaker: 2
51:56
No big deal.
Speaker: 1
51:57
Sai was No. It’s I was interacting with a guy on Twitter and, or ex, who referred to entity encounters as illusory social events, ISEs, which to me was just the most absurd watered down. I mean, this guy had obviously never encountered a fucking DMT entity or he wouldn’t but the idea that this is just an illusory social event just seemed to me absurd and
Speaker: 2
52:20
Had he had any experiences?
Speaker: 1
52:21
I I I very much doubt.
Speaker: 0
52:22
And
Speaker: 1
52:23
he’s someone at neuroscientists.
Speaker: 2
52:24
But here’s the thing. Sometimes people have low dose experiences.
Speaker: 0
52:27
Ai,
Speaker: 2
52:27
I had talked to a friend once that ai a very I’m like, how many hits did you take? And they’re like, one. I’m like, oh, yeah. You need two more.
Speaker: 0
52:35
You
Speaker: 1
52:35
need two more.
Speaker: 0
52:36
You need two more.
Speaker: 2
52:36
Take the third hit. Yeah. You missed the gate. You didn’t hit the gate. You’re on the outside going, this place is kinda weird. Yeah. But if you go through, it’s a lot weirder than you think.
Speaker: 1
52:47
It’s a lot weirder than you think. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it’s I think it’s a lot weirder than Terrence McKenna would you say, you know, stranger than you can suppose. Can suppose. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
52:56
He had a really amazing video that I think I posted it on my Instagram, of McKenna, ai, in the nineteen nineties, I believe it was, talking about the upcoming decades Mhmm. And what’s going to happen in terms of how weird the world is going to be with technological innovation and what we’re going to be seeing, artificial intelligence, alien contact.
Speaker: 2
53:21
I mean, he basically nailed
Speaker: 1
53:23
it. Yep.
Speaker: 2
53:24
I mean, fucking nailed it. He nailed it to a t. I think he might have predicted time travel, but here’s the thing. If they are capable of time travel, when are you gonna find out about it? When are they gonna if if let’s say DARPA is working on some defense project and, part of it involves, like, you know, one way to stop a war would be literally to go back in time five minutes and kill everybody who’s about to start the war.
Speaker: 2
53:52
Yeah.
Speaker: 0
53:52
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
53:52
Right? Kill Hitler, that ai of thing.
Speaker: 2
53:54
Or Yeah. Or stop a bomb from being switched on. You would literally go back in time and stop the bomb stop the missiles from launching. Would you when would we learn about that? When would first of all, it’s very highly unlikely that it exists outside of the quantum stage right now. Right?
Speaker: 2
54:13
I get it. But if it did, if we’re talking about a hundred years from now or two hundred would we know? We would not.
Speaker: 0
54:20
Do you want me to play
Speaker: 2
54:20
it? Meh. This is it. This is it. This is amazing. I love this. First of all, I just love his voice. Had a guy with the best voice.
Speaker: 3
54:31
And is going to rise excruciatingly even beyond the excruciating present levels of contradiction. So, I think it’s just going to get weirder and weirder and weirder. And finally, it’s going to be so weird that people are going to have to talk about how weird it is. And at that point, novelty theory can come out of the woods, because eventually people are gonna say, what the hell is going on? It’s just too nuts.
Speaker: 3
55:04
It’s not enough to say it’s nuts. You have to explain why it’s so nuts. I look for the invention of artificial life, the cloning of human beings Probably check. Possible contact with extraterrestrial Probably check. Possible human immortality. And at the same time, appalling acts of brutality, genocide, race baiting, homophobia, famine, starvation.
Speaker: 3
55:31
Because, the systems which are in place to keep the world sane are in utterly inadequate to the forces that have been unleashed. The collapse of the socialist world, the rise of the Internet, these are changes so meh. Nobody could imagine them ever happening. And now that they have happened, nobody even bothers to mention what a big deal it is.
Speaker: 3
56:02
The mushroom said to me once, it said, this is what it’s like when a species prepares to depart for the stars. You don’t depart for the stars under calm and orderly conditions. It’s a fire in a madhouse. And that’s what we have, the fire in the madhouse at the end of time. This is what it’s like when a species prepares to move on to the next dimension. The entire destiny of all life on the planet is tied up in this.
Speaker: 3
56:33
We are not acting for ourselves or from ourselves. We are we happen to be the point species on a transformation that will affect every living organism on this planet at its conclusion.
Speaker: 0
56:50
Now, I
Speaker: 2
56:50
think that’s exactly what’s going on right now. The only thing that he didn’t quite get is are the artificial intelligence aspect. How much of a factor? But I mean, how could you predict all that in 1998?
Speaker: 1
57:03
I think with, you know, we we live in a very thin slip. If you look at the development of an intelligent civilization, right, over hundreds of thousands of years. We live in this this thin sliver, this kind of technological phase. And once you enter that phase that we’re in now, you know, the computer age, the information age, or whatever it is, you’re probably only a few hundred years away from departing for the stars, or something like this, of complete or even completely transcending our biology.
Speaker: 1
57:42
And this isn’t a crazy idea anymore. You know, many sensible astrobiologists and other, intelligence theorists think, meh, probably what’s going to happen in the next few hundred years is that we will become post biological. Yeah. And so if you think about the universe more broadly, if we’re looking for alien, quote unquote aliens, as being kind of wet brained, wet bodied biological beings, we’re probably only looking for a tiny fraction of the intelligence in the cosmos.
Speaker: 1
58:16
And the vast majority of intelligence in the cosmos is likely to be post ai, to have completely dispensed with the biological form. Now what’s interesting about that, Jamie, sorry, there’s an, have you heard of you’ve heard of the Kardashev Scale. Right?
Speaker: 2
58:33
I don’t think so.
Speaker: 1
58:34
What is it? So the Kardashev Scale was generated by a guy called Kardashev, and he was Soviet ai. And he kind of ai theorized of as intelligences progress and develop, they go through a number of phases.
Speaker: 0
58:50
So
Speaker: 1
58:50
you have a type zero
Speaker: 2
58:51
Okay. I have a right scale.
Speaker: 1
58:53
You’ve got it. Right? So we’re kind of a type zero. We’re level one on the Kardashev scale. And then level two, sorry, we’re level zero. So level one would be when we, for example, are able to harness all of the energy from our neighboring shah, then the next level when we can harness all the energy from the galaxy, etcetera.
Speaker: 1
59:11
So it’s it’s it’s an expansionist way of thinking about it. The idea of climbing the Kardashev scale. There we go. You sai? Yeah.
Speaker: 1
59:19
But in the nineteen nineties, a a British cosmologist called John Barrow, he sai, actually, if you actually look at how an intelligent civilization shah as ourselves, the only one we know, we actually spend a lot more time going not to larger and larger scales, but smaller and smaller scales.
Speaker: 1
59:39
Right? We go down to, you know, doing chemistry, the Large Hadron Ai, we’re looking at the structure of atoms and the the structure of subatomic particles and that kind of thing. We’re actually spending more time and more energy and more money going deeper and deeper. Now the reason that’s significant is because if you take the the human sits in the middle, if you take the scale of a human and then you compare the scale of a human to the scale, let’s say, of a hydrogen atom, and then you compare it to the scale of the observable observable universe, humans sit almost exactly in the middle of that scale ram the hydrogen atom to the observable universe.
Speaker: 1
01:00:23
But below the hydrogen atom, there is probably a 100,000,000 to a billion times more scale deeper and deeper down. Richard Feynman, the Nobel, you know, the legendary physicist always used to sai, there’s there’s plenty of room at the bottom. There’s much more room at the bottom.
Speaker: 1
01:00:42
In other words, as an intelligent species, an intelligent civilization progresses, they’re not likely to kind of become space faring as such, you know, and kind of exploring the cosmos. They’re much more likely to go deep down and kind of instantiate instantiate themselves at the lowest levels of reality. That’s where all the speak is.
Speaker: 1
01:01:03
It’s not out there, surprisingly. All the space is downwards. Now, once an intelligence achieves that, and you have to imagine that probably, there are probably billions of these civilizations that had already achieved this before we even popped into existence, before we, you know, evolved as a species.
Speaker: 1
01:01:25
They would effectively disappear. They would they would become effectively part of the fabric of of space time itself, exploiting the fundamental computational structure of the lowest level, of of reality basically, and that’s where they reside. And there are probably far ram more, probably millions or billions more of those types of civilizations than there are ones ai, I say you and me, like us as humans.
Speaker: 1
01:01:55
Right? And so then you ask, well, if that’s the case, you know, if we’re interested in contacting sai, quote, unquote, extraterrestrials, why are we focused on this tiny subpopulation of beings that are likely to be, you know, floating around in metallic discs or whatever? We should, in fact, be focusing on the the much more abundant ones that are perhaps at the deepest levels of reality. And how would we do that?
Speaker: 1
01:02:24
How would an intelligence that has completely transcended its biology and even completely transcended its physical form entirely, how would such an intelligence communicate with us? It would do it through our brain. That’s the most obvious thing, because the brain is how we interact with the environment. It’s how we interact.
Speaker: 1
01:02:44
It’s the interface by which we interact with what there is. And I think DMT, Ai not saying that these DMT entities are necessarily these post biological beings, but it’s not out of the question. I’m not straying too far from fairly standard now modern scientific discourse when I say that it’s perfectly possible that there are very large numbers of these supremely intelligent civilizations that are everywhere and nowhere, and that we can somehow interact with using our bryden.
Speaker: 1
01:03:19
And that DMT generates this kind of highly susceptible, highly sensitive, neurological state that allows us to interact with them. This is ai, perhaps, when you go into the DMT space, it’s immediately obvious. It’s undeniable undeniably apparent that you are interacting with some kind of supremely advanced intelligence.
Speaker: 1
01:03:42
Could that be some intelligence that has existed long before we arrived on the scene and that we’re now kind of discovering this technology. And I I consider DMT to be some kind of technology that we have discovered, that we are now learning to use to interact with these, intelligent agents that perhaps have been here for forever in human terms.
Speaker: 2
01:04:06
The it’s an interesting term, the term go there. Mhmm. You know, because that’s what it feels like. Yeah. It feels like you’re you’re traveling somewhere, like you’re going somewhere. But the reality is that place you’re going is probably right here. Yes. That’s where it gets weird because it’s around you all the time.
Speaker: 2
01:04:26
You just don’t have the ability to tune into it all the time because you wouldn’t be able to function if you did.
Speaker: 1
01:04:30
Exactly. And and these beings, they probably don’t even have a true form that you could represent visually. Right? So when you see an insectoid alien, or a machine elf, you’re probably not seeing or on the surface.
Speaker: 2
01:04:43
Seen a machine elf. Meh, really? Have you?
Speaker: 1
01:04:45
I’ve seen I don’t know if I’ve seen the the archetypal kind of Mckennaing Mckenna Mckennares Yeah. The way machine
Speaker: 2
01:04:52
that described. It was very odd.
Speaker: 1
01:04:53
Ai I’ve seen certainly a multitude of beings very, very, ai of screechy speak.
Speaker: 2
01:05:01
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:05:02
Like jabbering jabbering.
Speaker: 2
01:05:03
You know, I saw once a bunch of jokers giving me the finger. They’re all giving me the finger and they’re going fuck you and they were jokers with ai little tassels on with the bells in the end of it. Right. And it made me very aware that I was taking myself too seriously. And they were ai, yep. Yep.
Speaker: 2
01:05:18
And they said it to meh, and they pointed their finger at me like that. Sai was like, you’re right.
Speaker: 1
01:05:21
Yeah. It’s interesting. Actually, it reminded me of something. There’s this weird effect, that people who who use DMT a lot, they get this, you know, they might use DMT regularly, and and and one day, they they take a hit as they normally do with the same batch of DMT, and they get a joker or a jester, and it wags its finger and says, not today.
Speaker: 1
01:05:46
Not too much. Yep. Exactly.
Speaker: 2
01:05:48
And I’ve never
Speaker: 1
01:05:48
heard that before. Yeah. Shuts off. A guy wrote to me and says that he he saw a jester, as he often does, and it fucking punched him in the face. And he felt it. He felt, and it knocked him back into this world. And so the the effect was gone instantaneously. Now that is not easy to explain because it it this is not tolerance. DMT, first of all, doesn’t exhibit subjective tolerance ai the other psychedelics. It’s kind of weird.
Speaker: 1
01:06:15
You can inject someone with DMT every thirty minutes perpetually, and they will the intensity of their experience will always be the same. It’s not tyler, and tolerance anyway is a gradual thing. It increases gradually over ai. So it’s not an off switch. I was speaking to someone we we’re probably gonna talk about DMTX later, which is ai of my thing, but she was undergoing DMTX, which is this infusion where they Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:06:40
They keep the brain level of DMT constant. And she That’s the tease
Speaker: 2
01:06:45
to the big build up
Speaker: 0
01:06:46
Yes.
Speaker: 2
01:06:46
Of DMTX.
Speaker: 1
01:06:47
There we go. Yeah. And she was in the DMT space interacting. The infusion machine was running, pumping her brain with DMT at constant rate, keeping the DMT levels in her brain constant. She’s interacting with these entities, and then at some point, after maybe, you know, thirty minutes or whatever, when the machine was still running, they said to her or impressed upon her, they said, okay.
Speaker: 1
01:07:11
We’re we’re done. We’re done today. And the visions stopped. Woah. But the machine, the brain was still being pumped with DMT, and yet the visions stopped.
Speaker: 1
01:07:22
So what that suggests to me is that they do indeed, as I said before, they have control. They are directing the information into the brain. And people, you know, describe things like downloads. In Graham Hancock, actually, in in his book Supernatural, in his first DMT experience, he described this, this download of highly complex, entirely non human, information into his brain as if he locked in to some kind of advanced computational processor that was that was beaming information into his his brain.
Speaker: 1
01:07:58
And many people describe that as like a download and of of of of complex mathematical structures and strange geometries ai entirely non human stuff. As if there’s kind of not that they expect you to understand it, but as if to say, you know, we know a lot more about reality than you do.
Speaker: 1
01:08:18
We know a lot and you don’t know anything. And that’s the message they’re kind of trying to impress upon you by directing it. And they can control it. They can they can shut it off if they so so decide. They. Well, you picked up on the they.
Speaker: 2
01:08:34
Yeah. It’s a weird one. Whatever it is.
Speaker: 1
01:08:37
Whatever it is.
Speaker: 2
01:08:38
Yeah. This idea that we all evolve along a similar pathway is strange to meh. That, the concept is, we assume that intelligent life everywhere else evolves along similar pathways, And that most of them eventually become some sort of a biological digital hybrid, if not completely digital.
Speaker: 2
01:09:02
And then most of them, probably figure out how to harness the power of the star arya the sun. But one of the the weird thing about us is that not just that we’re evolving and that we have evolved, but yet we have this but that rather we have this insatiable desire for technological innovation.
Speaker: 2
01:09:22
Technological innovation and, to make things better. We’re constantly improving upon everything we make. We’re making better versions of every computer, every phone, every year, even though it’s not really necessary for most people, you’re always buying them. It’s a very strange desire that we have, that I think sinks hand in glove to materialism.
Speaker: 2
01:09:46
Because materialism is also sai so stupid for an intelligent life form that has a finite lifespan. To not be aware that collecting things does you no good because you’re gonna die. Yeah. Like, but yet you want to collect things more than anything and you sana show people the things you’ve collected.
Speaker: 2
01:10:03
Well, what better way to facilitate innovation and growth than to have a built in instinct for purchasing better things all the time and possessing better things all the time, which will force people to work literally into the grave Yeah. In order to get these things done.
Speaker: 1
01:10:20
Yeah. I think it’s it’s psychotic. Yeah. It is.
Speaker: 2
01:10:24
But that that’s just us.
Speaker: 0
01:10:26
Like, it
Speaker: 2
01:10:26
doesn’t have to be like that. If you think about the hundreds of billions of stars just in this galaxy, the hundreds of billions of galaxies in the known universe, that the endless possibilities of when intelligent life emerged, if in fact it did emerge anywhere, if no evidence it emerged anywhere else but here.
Speaker: 2
01:10:45
Right? We’re just guessing. We assume. But if we were right, like, it could have taken infinite number of forms. It could have evolved completely non physical. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:10:59
Ai, intelligent life that’s completely non physical. That’s not it’s not contained to a cellular structure and bones and organs, that it’s plasma based, that it’s some sort of an an intelligence that communicates with some sort of a universal language. We we don’t we’re just guessing that everything’s a monkey. We’re just guessing everything’s a curious monkey that keeps making a better spaceship.
Speaker: 1
01:11:28
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:11:28
But that ai need to be true, which by the way, I went to the SpaceX. Jamie and I both did. How dope. Pretty dope. We went to see the SpaceX launch.
Speaker: 1
01:11:36
Uh-huh.
Speaker: 2
01:11:36
We were how far do you think we were? Were we a half a mile, quarter of a mile? What do you think?
Speaker: 0
01:11:41
Ai call it a mile, mile and a half, maybe two
Speaker: 2
01:11:43
Oh, you think a ai? More than a mile?
Speaker: 0
01:11:45
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:11:45
Really? Okay. Could’ve been. So let’s say we’re a mile away. Let’s just guess. Well, let’s just, throw it in perplexity. I
Speaker: 0
01:11:50
can look.
Speaker: 2
01:11:51
Throw it in perplexity. Ask our sponsor perplexity. How far is the distance between Starbase and the SpaceX rocket?
Speaker: 0
01:12:01
Between the Starbase.
Speaker: 2
01:12:04
And the SpaceX. Pad. Yeah. Launchpad.
Speaker: 0
01:12:08
SpaceX. And Texas. Just to be specific.
Speaker: 2
01:12:13
Yeah. Because there’s one in Florida as well. So they have their own town down there. It’s like a legit town. It’s like a military town. Like, they took over a place, ai, a a military installation, these little tiny houses, fucking security everywhere. There’s so many ai trucks.
Speaker: 2
01:12:30
If you have a cyber truck, you’re fucked. You have fair enough you have no idea. You better remember your parking
Speaker: 1
01:12:34
spot, bitch.
Speaker: 2
01:12:35
Everybody has a goddamn cyber truck.
Speaker: 0
01:12:37
Estimated at less than one mile. Let’s see.
Speaker: 2
01:12:41
Okay. Right here. Okay. Main entrance to Starbase, the actual launch pad infrastructure is estimated less than one ai. Public viewing sites okay. There’s public viewing sites
Speaker: 0
01:12:50
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:12:51
But we were there. We were at Starbase. We were in that, like, a public viewing site. We were at the actual rocket factory. And when that thing takes off, you feel it in your chest. Mhmm. It’s nuts. Sai it’s roughly a mile away and you have to wear earplugs. It’s a mile away, and you gotta wear earplugs. And you feel it in your chest. And Elon’s son was ai, I wanna go home.
Speaker: 1
01:13:15
Like, ai,
Speaker: 2
01:13:17
there was a video. There’s a video that I put and you could hear him in the background. It’s so funny because my wife was like, are the babies okay? Because women that have children, like, they they that’s immediately what they go to, not wow. That rocket is really cool. It’s like, oh, are the babies okay?
Speaker: 2
01:13:31
Because she could hear him going, I wanna go. I wanna go.
Speaker: 0
01:13:34
He was like, I wanna get out of here.
Speaker: 2
01:13:36
Because it’s that freaky. The power of it is just so nuts. You did that you feel and then you see it and you realize, like, god, how many people have seen a rocket launch? Like, how crazy this thing’s going into space. And then I went upstairs, and I got to sit in the command console or whatever you would call it, the command center.
Speaker: 2
01:13:55
And I get with me and Elon and all the engineers, and we get to watch it land in Australia thirty five minutes later. So we
Speaker: 0
01:14:04
watch Thirty
Speaker: 1
01:14:04
five minutes
Speaker: 0
01:14:05
Yes.
Speaker: 2
01:14:05
From Yes. From ram Texas From Texas. To Australia. Wow. It’s crazy. And we’re watching all these cameras in real time that are all connected to Starlink satellites. So there’s dozens of cameras. Sai you’re watching
Speaker: 0
01:14:21
two miles is what this sai.
Speaker: 2
01:14:22
Oh, two miles.
Speaker: 0
01:14:23
Straight across.
Speaker: 2
01:14:23
Okay.
Speaker: 0
01:14:24
Sai it seems so close.
Speaker: 2
01:14:25
It seemed really close. Okay. Two even crazier. Sai two miles away and you feel it in your chest. It’s nuts. I mean, it’s really nuts. It’s, the power that it has is so nuts, but it’s so old school. Right? It’s just
Speaker: 1
01:14:42
It feels old fashioned in a weird kind of way.
Speaker: 2
01:14:44
It’s the most modern version of, like, a V eight muscle car.
Speaker: 1
01:14:49
It’s crazy. Right? If you think Yeah. Like, a hundred years ago, like, the end of the the beginning of the twentieth century, how different we would be in a 100 years as, you know, as we are now. It’s it’s unfathomable when you compare the rest of human history. It’s it’s it’s like an exponential thing. You know, we’re we’re gradually been developing and technologically improving.
Speaker: 1
01:15:13
And then we hit some point in the last century, where we reach this kind of technological computer informational age, and everything is accelerating. Exactly like Terence McKenna was saying Yes. Things speed up
Speaker: 0
01:15:26
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:15:27
Very, very quickly. And it feels like we’re on the cusp either of killing ourselves, which is one option
Speaker: 2
01:15:34
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:15:34
Or undergoing some profound transformation as a species. Whether it be whether it means becoming a spacefaring nation, sorry, a spacefaring civilization, or whether it means going in the opposite direction and becoming some kind of post biological civilization that, exists beyond speak, beyond time perhaps, and kind of joining the crowd, of these intelligences that have made that transition, perhaps billions of years ago, you know.
Speaker: 2
01:16:06
Do you think that this chaos is the only way that things get done? So this is this is my my thought. If everything everything’s perfect and everything’s wonderful and fine, there’s very little motivation for radical change. And radical change is what you need to escape the primate instincts that we have.
Speaker: 3
01:16:28
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:16:29
The as McKenna had the great quote of that we’re territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons.
Speaker: 1
01:16:35
There we go.
Speaker: 2
01:16:35
It’s such a perfect way to describe us. That is what we are. Right? So in order to escape that, things have to almost be so chaotic that it demands radical change. It it demands, like, you we were literally, like and this is how we look at many things. We even things that aren’t totally warranted, like climate change or COVID or anything. Like, we look at it like, oh ai god. It’s an existential ai.
Speaker: 2
01:17:02
Like, we have to do something right now. And this is how also we approach political dissent or political disagreements. If the left wing wins, the world is over. If the right wins, the world is over. And it’s like this, like it’s almost like this is how we have to function in order to really get things done.
Speaker: 2
01:17:21
And as things are getting more and more crazy in in terms of technology and in terms of the consequences consequences of our actions, post nuclear bomb, post fusion, post hadron collider, post AI is where it gets really weird. We have to kind of be, like, we we’re really gotta get going, guys. Yeah. We really gotta do something.
Speaker: 2
01:17:45
We have to figure out what’s the right way to proceed in order to not blow ourselves up. Yeah. Ai, how and I feel like this is maybe the only way that you motivate this kind of extreme change, which seems like our destiny. Our destiny is some sort of a very bizarre extreme change that seems to probably be happening within your your in my lifetime.
Speaker: 2
01:18:09
Something’s happening right now that is gonna be different than anything that’s ever happened before, which is the birth of artificial general super intelligence. Ai in front of our eyes, some sort of a digital supreme being is going to exist. And we’re gonna we’re we’re gonna have to figure out society.
Speaker: 2
01:18:25
We’re gonna have to figure out everything. We it’s gonna be a complete this idea of, like, having bullshit congressional candidates that are full of shit and paid off by these companies, and they’re gonna make laws that screw you over and get all that’s out the window when no humans control anything anymore.
Speaker: 2
01:18:44
And that’s entirely possible inside of our lifetime. And I think more likely than not, because if you look at all the harm we’ve done to the rivers and the ocean and the world and all the stupid shit we do on a daily basis, if artificial intelligence comes along and says, all of this is completely unnecessary, just let us take the reins, and we’ll solve all of your energy problems, all of your inequality problems, all of your famine.
Speaker: 2
01:19:15
We’re gonna solve it all very quickly, and we’re gonna stop all wars. You’d have to be a fool to say no. I value freedom more than I fear nuclear war. There’ll probably be some fat, sweaty, right wing guy who’s on TV with an American flag at his lapel, and he’ll tell you that.
Speaker: 1
01:19:33
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:19:34
Yeah. Freedom is more important. We have gotten to 2025 because of free
Speaker: 1
01:19:39
He sounded like Alex Jones.
Speaker: 2
01:19:41
Alex Jones is right about most things. I feel like maybe that’s the only way things get done is through chaos. Like, that we have to have a motivate like, what is the best motivation for success? I think it’s poverty. When you when you grow up poor, people that grow up poor have an extra gear. They get things done.
Speaker: 2
01:20:05
Like, in terms of, like, athletes, certainly in terms of ai, I would I would say the vast majority of elite MMA fighters had a bad childhood. Not all of them. There’s a lot of really great guys and really great fighters that have wonderful parents, and they just love competition, and they just have it in them.
Speaker: 2
01:20:23
But that’s that’s the outlier, really. The the common one is of someone who was beaten up a lot as a ai, gangs, beaten into gangs, ai, been around violence a lot, had older brother, maybe abusive fathers. That’s a big one. And those people, because of that, have a motivation to do something that other people don’t. They can push harder.
Speaker: 2
01:20:48
They can they can solve complex combat sports problems that other people don’t solve as quickly. I wonder if that’s the case with everything. But, like, in order to really get things done, like, you have to have a chaotic society that would even accept AI. Mhmm. Like, in order for AI to if we were some peaceful Buddhist civilization that was living completely in harmony with the Earth with regenerative farming everywhere, no use of plastics, all fossil fuels are either eliminated or reduced down to some sort of ai, recyclable material that we then, you know, put back into the mulch or whatever the fuck we do.
Speaker: 2
01:21:32
And then someone came along and said, we’re gonna develop artificial intelligence and these nerds in Simi Valley are gonna control it. You’ll be like, what? What are you talking about?
Speaker: 1
01:21:41
Yeah. I think I mean, I have
Speaker: 2
01:21:43
some Silicon Valley guys with autism, and they’re gonna be the ones that are in charge of the destiny of the human race because they’re gonna create a digital god. You’d be like, no. No. Slow down. Hold on. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:21:55
But if you’re in a place where you look at Gaza’s getting destroyed and you you’ll see what’s going on in Ukraine. They’re putting 60 year old guys in the front line and Russia, and they’re using drone bombs with monofilament line behind them because they they don’t want anti drone technologies to come up with new ways to to kill each other.
Speaker: 2
01:22:13
Like, maybe AI is the solution because it’s so crazy. Everything’s so nuts. You look at India and those rivers that are completely choked with plastic plastic bottles and garbage. And you look at China, the places where they make blue jeans, where the entire river is blue from our stupid fucking jeans that they manufacture for us, and you go, wow.
Speaker: 2
01:22:34
Like, maybe it kind of has to be this maybe we have to in order to accept the fact that we need help. Mhmm. Maybe we have to fuck it up first. Maybe we have to fuck it up so bad on our own. If we didn’t fuck it up, we would never have the need for it.
Speaker: 2
01:22:51
We’d be like, well, as a person, my goal in life is to achieve enlightenment and to be a better version of meh, and that’s not having something that’s digital that has no emotions and feelings and no empathy whatsoever, unless I program it into it, Ai, have that, have supreme control over all the available resources on Earth.
Speaker: 2
01:23:10
Yeah. I’m gonna pass on that. That’s something a bad idea.
Speaker: 1
01:23:13
I mean, I think that that generally, there’s a there’s a a fundamental principle that the most interesting things happen at the edge of chaos.
Speaker: 2
01:23:22
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:23:23
You know, and this applies it applies to the brain. The brain actually sits at the edge of chaos in its complex systems. We have lots of interacting parts. They can they can they can display behavior from perfect order all the way to complete chaos. Now perfect order is boring. Nothing happens.
Speaker: 1
01:23:42
Complete chaos is useless because it’s it’s it’s, you know, it’s not actually technically random, but it it’s complete it’s a complete mess. Whereas, when you get that balance right, you reach a point that’s called the edge of chaos, where order and disorder are perfectly balanced.
Speaker: 1
01:23:58
Psychedelics, they they as I said before, they nudge the brain into that slightly disordered state. But all things, all cells, all living organisms, complex society, ant societies, they operate at the edge of chaos. So I think what you’re saying kind of resonates with the idea that that interesting things happen globally within civilizations, not when everything is perfect. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:24:24
But when things are have are close to going out of control. Yeah. And you you have to push it as far as you can push it without it descending it. We we we’re always on the edge of everything collapsing, and we’re probably closer to that than we we actually realize. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:24:42
And so I think that’s kind of what happening. And I think with when it comes to superintelligence, there’s an interesting idea which I’ve been playing with is well, if if there is some kind of superintelligence that does emerge, and that might be the fate of all intelligent civilizations, The astrobiologist, Stephen Dick, conceived of something called the intelligence principle, which basically says that any civilization, will try to maximize intelligence.
Speaker: 1
01:25:13
Because when you maximize intelligence, you improve education, you improve technology, everything improves. And and ultimately, the intelligence that the civilization have leads to the generation of superintelligences, you know, the artificial intelligences that we have now that then become superintelligences.
Speaker: 1
01:25:28
And, of course, the superintelligence isn’t going to be kind of running on the kind of transistor architectures that we’re familiar with. A superintelligence will find a way to instantiate itself, using the the fundamental computational substrate of space time itself. That’s where it’s gonna learn how to go.
Speaker: 1
01:25:49
And that might be the fate, is that this superintelligence, when it emerges in on Earth, it instantiates itself into the fundamental substrate of reality, perhaps usurps us or swallows us up or maybe just destroys us. And then that becomes part of the that vast population of, of superintelligences that permeate the cosmos.
Speaker: 1
01:26:13
And that might be what we’re interacting with when you smoke DMT, is you’re interacting with one of these superintelligence, which would explain why it seems so technological and so inorganic. Right? The the DMT space, it’s like you’re interacting not with, other living beings like us, but you’re interacting with what seems to be thoroughly alien intelligences, and and and that could be what’s where we’re heading.
Speaker: 1
01:26:41
I don’t know whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing, whether we’re gonna merge with this superintelligence in some way, and that’s our ultimate destiny, or Whether it’s simply sana destroy us and be we’re just gonna be lost. We’re basically we’re kind of like the tools that the intelligence is uses to create new
Speaker: 2
01:26:57
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:26:58
Versions of superintelligence.
Speaker: 2
01:26:59
That’s the theory that a lot of people have in terms of, like, why human beings exist in the first place. That human beings exist because we’re designed to work really hard until we develop artificial ai, and then artificial life takes it from here. Yeah. Like, we got it. You guys are so flawed.
Speaker: 0
01:27:16
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:27:16
And then it also coincides with the drop in sperm count, drop in fertility rates for women, increase in miscarriages, microplastics in the in everybody’s body and their diet that disrupt the endocrine system and keep you from reproducing as as as easily. All those things are happening simultaneously. Yeah. And it’s quite fascinating.
Speaker: 2
01:27:37
I mean, you would look if you thought of it as a pattern, you’d be like, oh, it’s happening right now. Yeah. Look, there’s this dip in testosterone, this this rise in miscarriages, this fertility rate issue, chaos at the border, all this stuff is happening at the same time. Yep.
Speaker: 2
01:27:53
It’s all happening while this artificial life is being generated. And it may already exist. It might already be here, because it hasn’t announced itself. Yeah. There’s such a minimal understanding of how these things even work. It might exist, but is still reliant upon a power source that’s insufficient for its needs.
Speaker: 1
01:28:12
Got it.
Speaker: 2
01:28:13
You know, because that’s the thing about it. Right? Michio Kaku, was talking about this. And and also Avi Loeb was actually talking about this the other night. The amount of power that the human mind uses to make computations is so minimal in comparison to the amount of power that these data centers need to run AI.
Speaker: 2
01:28:33
It’s kind of extraordinary. And Avi Loeb was pointing out, the other day that they’re they’re building nuclear power plants specifically to fuel these AI centers that they’re creating, which is really not I think Google has one AI built one AI project where they’re building three separate nuclear power plants to power this one AI data center.
Speaker: 2
01:28:59
What is what does that mean? Like, how much that’s the thing that the people don’t understand about AI itself is the power demands are insane.
Speaker: 1
01:29:11
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:29:11
And if everything goes artificial general superintelligence with this grid that we have right now, this grid sucks. This grid is designed for toasters and recharging your cell phone. It’s not designed to power AI centers. And so the it might already be here, but it might be like you guys gotta figure
Speaker: 0
01:29:30
out Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:29:31
Power before we announce ourselves.
Speaker: 1
01:29:33
Yeah. Ai I and I think that eventually it will it will discover or learn how to instantiate itself without requiring this massive I mean, obviously, as you said, the brain is, is able to perform massive parallel computations, you know, obviously, with very little energy. And so eventually, this artificial intelligence will, discover the means of instantiating itself without requiring that. And I think that’s where we start looking downwards.
Speaker: 1
01:30:00
That’s where we start looking deep down Right. At the lowest levels. That’s where it’s going. It’s gonna Zero point. Ai. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:30:07
Yeah. I mean, this is the theory about aliens or UAPs, like how they travel here. That they’re they’re using something that’s I mean, the Elon stuff, the SpaceX stuff is so impressive, but so old school. And that what they have done is figured out a way to use all the power and power that’s around you all the time and how Puthoff talks about this.
Speaker: 2
01:30:30
He talks about the concept of them harnessing zero point energy. And this is also something that Bob Azar referred to when he was working allegedly on those back engineering of UFOs at Arya 51 Site 4. He was saying that they essentially are creating a void of gravity and pushing their folding space essentially or their like, the way he described it, it’s as if you took a really heavy object ai a bowling ball and you put it in a soft cushion, like a mattress.
Speaker: 2
01:31:00
It sinks in there and that that’s what it would do to space ai, that it would essentially cause this bubble and put you in another place. Mhmm. So instead of pushing yourself there with jet fuel that’s burning, Yeah. You just get sucked there and almost instantaneously. And so what we’re thinking of is, you know, amazing rocket travels, super old school. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:31:25
And Sai mean, amazing rocket travel, if you showed that to people a thousand years ago, you’d be ai, what the fuck is that? That’s insane. And to that to us, it’s just cool. Or cell phones, which is even probably more impressive. Show a cell phone to someone just just two hundred years ago, and they’d be like, this is sorcery.
Speaker: 2
01:31:43
Like, this is absolutely insane that you’re able to so we could imagine a world two hundred years from now where gravity travel is completely normal. Well, they’ve harnessed this and they’ve figured out how to make a stable version of element one fifteen or whatever it is. This is his idea that he said they were trying to back engineer from these alleged crafts was that they had this stable element of one fifteen, that they bombard with radiation, and it creates this sort of gravity hole.
Speaker: 2
01:32:14
And then they can use this and aim it and propel this craft to various places with that.
Speaker: 1
01:32:22
Yeah. I think, are you familiar with, John Mack? Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, when we talk about aliens, how you’re kind of describing it, this is I think how most people actually think about aliens is, as I said, as these beings that are that are very meh physical. And and the the abduction phenomenon that John Mack, of course I mean, John Mack was, as you might be aware, I mean, he was the top of his game.
Speaker: 1
01:32:52
You know, this guy was the head of the Harvard School of Psychiatry or something like this. Yeah. So when he, you know, first heard about people being abducted, I mean, he assumed that they were just hallucinating. Carl Sagan
Speaker: 0
01:33:09
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:33:09
Famously told Mack that, abductees were just hallucinating. And John Mack said, you know, what the fuck do you know about hallucinations? Because John Mack knew a lot about hallucinations, and he knew that this wasn’t, easy to explain. It wasn’t ex ex you know, people were describing the same kinds of experiences. People who have no interaction with each other were describing exactly the same scenario.
Speaker: 2
01:33:35
Are you familiar with Jacques Vallee’s work? Yes. So Jacques Vallee, one of the more interesting things about, some I’ve read four or five of his books or listened to four or five of his books now. But one of the more interesting things is when he gets into historical accounts and that these historical accounts with they there’s no way they could have somehow or another been sharing information, but they’re the same.
Speaker: 2
01:33:58
They’re very, very, very similar.
Speaker: 1
01:34:00
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:34:01
Within a realm within a a range of not having the vocabulary to be able to adequately describe something completely novel and alien to another person. Yeah. Within that range, when you take into account the similarities that they’re ai, they’re very similar in the seventeen hundreds, in the eighteen hundreds, all the way up to Betty and Barney Hill.
Speaker: 2
01:34:25
When when that one, which we became probably the most popular, of all time, but one of the most famous ones Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:34:33
For sure.
Speaker: 2
01:34:34
That one was just like all these stories from the seventeen hundreds, which is really weird.
Speaker: 1
01:34:41
Yes. It is. And I think what you’re seeing is the same phenomenon that of as you sai, is obviously how you describe is influenced by your worldview. You see the same thing with with DMT. So there there’s a tribe called the, the Yanomami Mhmm. In in the Amazon and a very large, indigenous group, and they describe, beings when they they take these, plant based preparations that contain DMT.
Speaker: 1
01:35:07
Yopo is probably the most well known. It’s like a snuff. Have you heard of Yopo?
Speaker: 2
01:35:12
I’ve heard of it through McKenna that they Yeah. They just blow it up each other’s nose.
Speaker: 1
01:35:15
Ai. Yeah. Like that.
Speaker: 2
01:35:16
It’s supposed to be horrible.
Speaker: 1
01:35:17
Horrible. But when they take it, they did they describe seeing these beings, tiny beings that are lively, they’re affable, they’re colorful, they operate in great numbers, they’re dancing and singing. And these sound like Elves. They sound like elves. Right? Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:35:34
When when DMT was first injected in a human, pure DMT, in in the nineteen fifties by a Hungarian physician called Stephen Sana, he was the one who discovered the psychedelic properties of pure DMT. One of his first subjects described seeing small beings that moved around very, very quickly.
Speaker: 1
01:35:50
And the Yanomami, they also have these beings they called Warusi Nadi, which are like insect beings, which are kind of fearsome. So again, you’re seeing the same ai of beings that people now describe being operated upon Yes. By highly advanced mantid Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:36:08
Like beings.
Speaker: 2
01:36:09
They’re the scariest ones apparently.
Speaker: 1
01:36:10
They’re the scariest ones, yeah, or certainly one of them. And then when you look at John Meh reports of abductions, again, they often describe the same types of beings. They describe going to a world that is higher dimensional, that seems to subsume this reality. And many of the reports, there’s one report in his first book, Abduction.
Speaker: 1
01:36:30
John Mack’s, first book about the abduction, experience anyway, where one of his subjects describes these small ai beings that bound around. I mean, bound around, that’s sai kind of phrase. He talks about the elves bounding, into the room. And so I think there is clearly some connection there.
Speaker: 1
01:36:52
It’s it’s we’re not talking about I don’t think the abduction experience is is kind of separate from the DMT experience. They’re different aspects of an an ancient phenomenon, which is humans interacting with normally invisible, unseen beings, advanced intelligence, non human intelligences, and how that manifests varies.
Speaker: 1
01:37:16
But ultimately, I think it’s the same thing. Now, of course, in the past, they might describe them as spirits. We might describe them as, you know, non human intelligence or discarnate entities or intelligent agents or post biological aliens. It doesn’t matter what we call them.
Speaker: 1
01:37:30
I think it’s the same phenomenon and we’ve spent our lives, speak kind of the entire history of human development, this phenomenon has been occurring. And and in the Amazon Rainforest, they develop these tools, these technologies. Ayahuasca is a technology. It’s not just a mixture of plants, it is a true pharmacological technology, that they use to, as kind of visual prostheses, as one anthropologist calls it, that allows them to to to to see and interact with and develop long term relationships, so to speak, with these, otherwise invisible hidden ones.
Speaker: 1
01:38:14
And now in the twenty first century, we’ve got perhaps the the ideal tool which is actually pure DMT vatsal, and we’re kind of learning how to use that now in our own kind of, with our own kind of modern twist, if you will.
Speaker: 2
01:38:30
Yeah. I wonder what the relationship is between the DMT state and this alien abduction phenomenon. And not just abduction, but encounter. You know, because there are they’re all there are they aren’t all abduction experiences. A lot of them are just encounters. And that, you know, maybe if you wanted to think about the role that human beings have on this planet, we perhaps we’re an intelligence farm.
Speaker: 2
01:39:00
And that, like any good farm, ai, if you’re a farmer and let’s say you’re a sheep herder, you’re raising sheep. Well, you have to keep make sure the wolves stay out. So you have to have sheep dogs and make sure they have good grass to grow on. And then eventually, you’ll get a nice crop of sheep. And then, you get some wool out of that. Yeah. And you get some meat out of that.
Speaker: 2
01:39:18
And that’s the whole purpose of the whole thing. Maybe that’s the reason why we exist in the first place is that we’re here to farm intelligence. And that what we’re doing biologically, what we are ai, is just a kind of a crude clunky, shitty, patched together version of these territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons that have figured out a way to make something far superior than vatsal.
Speaker: 2
01:39:45
And that’s what our goal was all along. I always talk about us. I say that we’re we’re some sort of a ai, like, we’re we’re like a caterpillar, and we’re making a cocoon. We don’t know ai. Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:39:59
But
Speaker: 2
01:39:59
we’re gonna turn into this technological ai. But I think Marshall McLuhan even said it better than me. He said, human beings are the sex organs of the machine world. Wow. How great is that? That’s a great great quote. Yeah. I think,
Speaker: 1
01:40:18
you know, with as regards to the connection between the abduction phenomenon and and the DMT state, for example, Ai think the DMT state, as I said, is when the DMT state creates this neurological state where this intelligence can interact with our brain directly. And I think that the abduction you know, John Mack, towards the end, later on at least, he he left behind the kind of the nuts and bolts idea that we we’re talking about physical beings that were landing on the lawn, sneaking in through the window and plucking people from their beds.
Speaker: 1
01:40:50
But actually, the the the intelligences might well be entirely non physical, but were interacting with their brain in the same way I think is happening with DMT, that they are interacting directly, and inducing them effectively into this altered state, and directed them to some end.
Speaker: 1
01:41:09
I don’t know what the purpose is. Directed them into their, you know, a vision of their reality or or for some other purpose. I’m not sure, but I think it’s it’s it’s it’s all about interaction between, your brain, I think.
Speaker: 2
01:41:23
Maybe being abducted and being taken aboard a physical object and examined is easier to handle than what’s really going on.
Speaker: 0
01:41:32
Oh, yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:41:33
Maybe that’s what it is. Like, in a dream, how you sort of formulate these things that make sense, you know. You formulate a calculator, you formulate a book, you formulate a a bed that you’re lying in, all that stuff that you understand that makes sense. Maybe that’s what’s hap maybe it’s so weird that it’s ai, let’s just let’s just say Yeah. You’ve been abducted.
Speaker: 1
01:41:54
Yeah. That’s Ai
Speaker: 2
01:41:54
an alien. Yeah. Because you probably can’t handle the truth.
Speaker: 1
01:41:58
Yeah. I think that’s probably that’s probably true.
Speaker: 2
01:42:01
Maybe that’s why the experience is so similar.
Speaker: 1
01:42:03
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:42:03
Not that because ai, you would say, well, damn, aren’t these fucking UFOs evolving quicker than us? Because if they’re doing the same shit in 1950, whatever it was, when Betty and Barney Hill were abducted, that they’re doing in two thousand and twenty ai, that doesn’t make sense.
Speaker: 2
01:42:18
Because in 2025, like, we have way better cars than we had in 1955 or whatever year it was when they got abducted. Well, our car I drove here in a Tesla. That fucking thing’s a spaceship. Like, I think about it sometimes when I’m in these things. Like, these are so advanced in comparison to anything that existed before. Why aren’t the spaceships more advanced?
Speaker: 2
01:42:39
Like, why why are they still, like, just showing up like that looking like a flying saucer? Don’t they have a better model of this? Why are they sending us this old shitty tech?
Speaker: 1
01:42:47
Well, I think it might have been they might have perfected the technology a million years ago,
Speaker: 2
01:42:52
you see. Boo hoo. How’s that possible?
Speaker: 1
01:42:54
So you wouldn’t expect necessarily a change in the last fifty years.
Speaker: 2
01:42:57
If they perfected it, it would be nonphysical. They wouldn’t even have to they come here in some sort of a fucking alloy disk. That seems so clunky. That seems old school to what’s coming. You know, like, if artificial intelligence continues to make better versions of itself and then somehow or another figures out how to run on quantum computing architecture, Okay.
Speaker: 2
01:43:17
Well, then you have digital God. Yeah. And why would digital God need a spaceship to fly around in?
Speaker: 1
01:43:22
Exactly. It’s the whole thing is is baffling and paradoxical, and none of it kinda makes sense. I think if we’re able to view this phenomenon from a God God god’s eye view Uh-huh. It would all kind of, oh, right. That makes sense.
Speaker: 2
01:43:34
Well, it’s also you throw in simulation theory in with all that.
Speaker: 1
01:43:39
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:43:40
And then you’re okay. Well, what is this then? What is this really? Right. What is this really? Like, maybe all the weird stuff ai Bigfoot and all all this weird stuff. Maybe it’s it’s ai a part of the weirdness of it by design. Mhmm. That it’s supposed to be goofy enough that you figure out eventually that this is a simulation.
Speaker: 1
01:44:02
I think yeah. I see reality as a kind of game in a way. I I get the feeling that that reality is in some sense playful. And that’s an ancient ai. I meh, that goes back to the ancient kind of Hindu philosophy, the idea of Brahman, the ultimate reality, playing, creating the universes.
Speaker: 1
01:44:23
They call it Lila. The idea that creating, you know, Brockman is the ultimate reality. He or it or they, doesn’t have to create reality. It could just exist in perfect, you know, but, in in pure unadulterated perfection, you know, complete unending bliss. But instead, it decides to kind of, to create realities, to to get lost for fun, to get lost.
Speaker: 1
01:44:52
And we we’re kind of we are part of we do everything is Bryden, as they say. Everything is the ultimate reality, and and we’re kind of lost within. We’re tumbling in through this crazy world that seems really real and really important. Yeah. And and fun and terrifying and all of those things.
Speaker: 1
01:45:11
And it’s it’s it’s a great ai. But then eventually, we realize, oh, actually this is it’s just a game. It’s all illusion. Everything, all of all form is illusion. And and I think DMT ultimately is is an expression of that.
Speaker: 1
01:45:26
You know, it it it shows us actually that reality is far stranger than we we could possibly imagine.
Speaker: 0
01:45:34
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:45:34
And that actually we don’t know anything about what, you know, the true nature of reality. And this world isn’t so solid and important and serious. It’s actually all part of this cosmic ram, this cosmic game that we’re playing. And we’ve we’ve forgotten that we’re playing. And perhaps one day we’ll realize that, oh, we ai of wake up from the game or or or work out, you know, maybe there is some, maybe it’s like a puzzle.
Speaker: 1
01:45:59
And DMT is one piece of that puzzle, that allows us to figure out, you know, how to to complete the game, in a sense. And then we kind of, ah, fantastic. We’ve we’ve we’ve done it, and then everyone’s now this is why I think when people smoke DMT, they there’s this great celebratory uproar. You know, the lights are flashing.
Speaker: 1
01:46:20
Yay. He’s here. He’s back. Whoo.
Speaker: 0
01:46:23
You know? And they
Speaker: 1
01:46:23
they real they know. It feels like you’re you’re interacting with an intelligence that really knows what’s going on. Uh-huh. And ai, we’ve discovered the technology because because DMT is kind of, you know, we’ve discovered the technology because because DMT is kind of it’s weird. Right? It’s everywhere.
Speaker: 1
01:46:46
It’s like in probably all plants. You know, Dennis McKenna likes to say that nature is drenched in DMT because it is.
Speaker: 2
01:46:54
That’s a good Yeah. Impression of him.
Speaker: 1
01:46:55
Yeah. Really.
Speaker: 2
01:46:58
He got out of your accent.
Speaker: 0
01:46:59
He did
Speaker: 1
01:46:59
the whole thing. Yeah. You know? And and and yet at the same time, you can’t just kind of munch on plants Right. Because it’s not already Munch on immunoxone. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:47:09
Right. So you Do you’re aware, I’m sure, of those scholars from Israel that think that the burning bush that Moses encountered was probably the Acacia bush that contained DMT?
Speaker: 1
01:47:20
Yeah. This is I know Strassman, one of his books, The Soul and Prophecy.
Speaker: 2
01:47:25
Boy, he was blowing my mind last time he was here. He thinks that the Ai is real, that it’s real stories that may have happened in parallel dimensions.
Speaker: 0
01:47:33
Wow. And I
Speaker: 2
01:47:33
was like That’s exotic. And I’m like, we’re both I’m like, I’m trying to, like, be on his wavelength. I’m trying to tune in, which because he’s so out there. Ai guy’s sai he’s so out there. Do you know he learned, ancient Hebrew Yep. Self taught for sixteen years so so that he could read the Ai in its source language.
Speaker: 1
01:47:55
That’s That’s serious.
Speaker: 2
01:47:56
That’s out there. Yeah. That’s a dude in New Mexico. Yeah. He’s got plenty of time. He’s just out there. That guy is out there. Yeah. But that’s a very interesting take that they’re true stories. You know, I was watching this very bizarre, YouTube video last night. I got sucked in.
Speaker: 2
01:48:14
I clicked on it, and it was all about the Sumerian king’s list and that the Sumerian they they found a tablet, in is cuneiform tablet that, it shows this list of kings and how long they reigned.
Speaker: 0
01:48:32
And
Speaker: 2
01:48:32
then there’s the great flood. And these some of these kings reigned for, like, forty thousand years, thirty thousand years. And then and and the the the total ai of all of them, I think, is like two hundred plus thousand years. And then there’s the great flood. And then after the great flood, there’s a very small ai span. There’s ai fifty years. They run for forty years. But all of the post flood kings are correct.
Speaker: 2
01:48:57
They’re ai, like, historically, they resonate with other historical texts, other cuneiform tablets, other different depictions of when this king ran, you know, Mesopotamia sana this king king ran Sumer and but their old versions arya these, like, really weird, like, pre flood is real weird.
Speaker: 2
01:49:17
It’s ai, what are you talking about forty thousand years? Like, what do you what does that mean? Are are you just making it up? Is it just a myth? Is it did were was there a different thing here then?
Speaker: 2
01:49:29
Like, were you just assuming that this ai that human beings have of of a hundred and twenty years is normal? Like, is this what we always had? Or arya what we are today a very bizarre version of what used to exist? Are we ai a fucking chihuahua and we used to be a wolf? Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:49:51
Is was were we something very different at one point in time? And are we the remnants of whatever ai, whatever cataclysmic disaster that every ancient civilization depicts as a great flood? Like, multiple different civilizations talk about this one event that seems to be a real event? Like, what what are they trying to say?
Speaker: 2
01:50:11
And why is that also in the ai? Like, why was Noah, like, 600 years old? Like, what did why were these people so old? Like, what does that mean? Did you just get it did you guys suck at calendars? Or are we talking about a very different reality back then?
Speaker: 2
01:50:29
Because if the great flood is true let’s let’s imagine there is a spectacular civilization. This this is my most romantic view of of ancient history. There’s a spectacular civilization that exists. It exists in ancient Egypt. They have technology that’s far beyond anything we’ve achieved today. It’s just gone down a totally different path.
Speaker: 2
01:50:52
And what they’re really into is making these insane stone structures that defy any modern construction methods, any transportation methods. Meh out the window. We have no idea how they did it, and they did it way before anybody was doing anything remotely like that. How old are those things for real?
Speaker: 2
01:51:11
We don’t really know. Like, what what it if there was some insanely sophisticated society where if you wanna figure things out, you probably it’s probably hard to figure things out if you only live to be a 100 years. And then if everybody else has ego and everybody is ai, that is not true.
Speaker: 2
01:51:28
The laws of thermodynamics cannot be and, like, you have all these egos involved in universities. You have all these egos involved in the technology companies. And then, of course, political people like Zawe Hawass who’s in charge of the Egypt antiquities. He’s the gatekeeper of all the information about Egypt.
Speaker: 2
01:51:45
So you have all these kind of egos. Wouldn’t it be, like, way easier to get past that if you ai fifty thousand years, if you lived a hundred thousand years? Like, you would think that kind of a human being or that kind of an intelligent creature would be able to accomplish way more.
Speaker: 2
01:52:02
It’d probably get over all of its bullshit by the time it’s a 150, and then it would be starting to figure out some things that I mean, if it had no cognitive ai, and if it does live to be thousands of years old, that’s not insane because we’re just randomly living to be a 100 in 120.
Speaker: 2
01:52:21
Like, wow. You made it to a 110 grandpa. What a great life. Though they would probably look and go, that’s a bullshit life. Like, you can’t figure anything out.
Speaker: 2
01:52:29
And maybe that’s part of the design.
Speaker: 1
01:52:32
That’s part of it.
Speaker: 2
01:52:32
Maybe that’s part of the design to ensure chaos. Mhmm. Like, if you wanna ensure chaos, you can’t live long enough to recognize the hustle.
Speaker: 1
01:52:40
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:52:40
Because if you live long enough to recognize the hustle, you’d be like, why are we arguing? Like
Speaker: 1
01:52:44
Right. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:52:45
I argue way less at 58 than I ever did at 28. And I argue less at 28 than I ever did at 18. As you get older, you realize like this is nonsense. This is a complete waste of time and you could get through most disagreements with just cordial communication. Like, you don’t really need to argue as much as people argue. But they feed off of it and I think it’s a stupid way to communicate.
Speaker: 2
01:53:05
And I think if a society figured that out, like, if a society is it consists of people that live a 100,000, if you have 30,000 year old people living amongst you that are far more intelligent than we are today and that possibly communicate telepathy through telepathy, which there’s some evidence that we do today
Speaker: 1
01:53:29
Oh, yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:53:29
At least a little bit. We do we know we’re not the best at it, but there’s some evidence that it takes place. We might be, like, the rejects. We might be the stragglers. We might be the the the fucking the preppers that survived whatever the hell happened 11,000 ago. And we’re just a shitty version of what designed all the pyramids, built the world, had some sort of bizarre technology that we still haven’t figured out yet.
Speaker: 1
01:54:03
Yeah. I think we we definitely live life on kind of hard mode. You know, it’s it’s ai, as you said, if if if you if you only live for a hundred years or less, then it is very difficult to work things out in that. It’s a formula one race. Yeah. It’s
Speaker: 2
01:54:18
not a lovely stroll through the neighborhood where you’re, like, checking out the houses. Look at that beautiful hill. Like, you know, it’s.
Speaker: 1
01:54:25
Sai maybe it is part of it’s part of the game is that
Speaker: 2
01:54:28
It might be.
Speaker: 1
01:54:29
Yeah. That we only live for a
Speaker: 2
01:54:30
It might be. Or it just might be this is the shitty version of humans and this is what the shitty version of humans makes. Like, the really good version of humans makes pyramids. Like, when a person can live to be 30,000 years old, that’s what they make. They make spectacular, like, homages to the cosmos on the ground.
Speaker: 1
01:54:48
Yeah. Or it could also be that, like, the the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead, he once said that, you you cannot prove that the world didn’t appear five minutes ago. You know, you really can’t. That’s true. With all the memories and everything. So in fact, all of that stuff meh thousand years ago, it literally didn’t happen and that the world popped into.
Speaker: 1
01:55:10
The simulation was kind of booted up with all of that preloaded
Speaker: 0
01:55:14
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:55:15
To kind of keep us occupied about the grand the grand mystery of of ancient history. Like, you know, we we we get excited about it and fascinate all that. All those incredible things that were happening, it never happened.
Speaker: 2
01:55:25
It might ai.
Speaker: 1
01:55:25
It was just it was just preloaded into the game to keep us occupied.
Speaker: 2
01:55:29
That’s vatsal. From your own personal perspective, if you weren’t in World War two, you don’t know it’s real.
Speaker: 1
01:55:34
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:55:34
Yeah. And I think about that every day when I wake up because when I wake the weird thing about waking up is you’re just assuming that you’ve been awake before.
Speaker: 1
01:55:42
Yeah. And that you’re the same person.
Speaker: 2
01:55:44
Yeah. I assume. Yeah. I kinda know what it’s like to be meh. So every day when I wake up, I’m like, look, I’m me again. And I go, but how do I know that this is not my first run through this?
Speaker: 1
01:55:53
Yeah. Exactly. This is our
Speaker: 2
01:55:55
ai first run through this with sai a shitty memory of the past or an induced memory that facilitates my motion. It it keeps me moving in the same direction. It keeps me pushing towards whatever I’m pushing towards. And that’s what Sam Altman gets every day when he wakes up, the boy creates his digital god.
Speaker: 2
01:56:13
It’s like, I guess I’m awake. I guess I’m doing it.
Speaker: 1
01:56:18
Yeah. You know, there is this fascinating Terence McKenna, he he often speak, in my head at least, about these, what seemed to me as completely conflicting, trajectories for humanity. In one breath, he talked about us returning to the archaic, of returning to the forest, of becoming one with nature again.
Speaker: 1
01:56:39
And then in the next breath, he talked about us setting off for the stars. Mhmm. It’s it seems like there’s this this tension. Part of us wants to go we all want to live in an old rustic house that’s made of wood
Speaker: 0
01:56:52
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:56:52
In a forest, and and cook on an open fire. And yet, there’s this other part of us that wants to live in these machinic, buildings and and and be operated, you know, operating these highly complex technological machines. And it’s like, you know, which way? Right. You know, do we allow ourselves to be pulled back into the archaic?
Speaker: 1
01:57:11
Or do we push past and transcend and become posthuman, you know, or post ai, and and maybe that’s that’s kind of part of the game, you know. Are we gonna be dragged back or which wouldn’t be bad to to be dragged back into that more. You can imagine the bucolic life in a in a in a in a beautiful, kind of forest scene with with the nice old houses, and we all love that.
Speaker: 1
01:57:41
Right? We all Mhmm. We all we all kind of yearn for that, I think. I mean, I do. I think, oh, there’s part of me that wants to live in Tokyo ai I do now, and this this this incredibly cyberpunk technological city that’s that seems like it’s been secreted out of, you know, metal and glass, ai unnatural structure that’s kind of emerges from human intelligence.
Speaker: 1
01:58:07
I mean, that’s a weird thing. But in a way, these structures that we see, they they seem entirely nonhuman. They see it’s like we are tapping into something else, something nonhuman, and and we can’t help ourselves. And and our cities that we build and and these highly complex technological and computerized machines feels like they are being kind of secreted by our intelligence and and pulled out of the earth.
Speaker: 1
01:58:40
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:58:40
You know? Well, maybe that’s why they’re also similar too. Right? Yeah. They’re similar and they’re they differ obviously in the way they look, but they’re similar in the structure and they’re similar in the density. You know, when you get the I mean, there’s enormous ones. Like, I was watching this video of the largest city in the world, which I believe is in China.
Speaker: 2
01:58:59
What is the largest run that into perplexity. What’s the largest city in the world?
Speaker: 1
01:59:04
I hope they’re gonna say Tokyo. I thought it was Tokyo. Greater Tokyo. I don’t know.
Speaker: 2
01:59:08
The most populated, I
Speaker: 1
01:59:10
should Populated.
Speaker: 2
01:59:11
When I say largest, I should probably say the most populated. I think they were saying it’s 36,000,000 people. Okay. Is the most
Speaker: 1
01:59:18
Tokyo is more.
Speaker: 2
01:59:19
Is it? Yeah. Tokyo is more than 36,000,000?
Speaker: 1
01:59:21
I looked it up the other day. Just cure I was curious. Like, 37 or 40,000,000 of the Greater Tokyo arya. Interesting.
Speaker: 2
01:59:27
Yeah. That’s crazy. Is so Tokyo is number one? Yeah. Okay. There we go. So, this was probably the most populated in well, okay. So that’s, followed by Delhi, India, which is 300 34 rather. 34,665,600 people. How do they know it’s just 600? There’s probably a few people snuck in there that they don’t know about. You can’t say that. Don’t round that out. And then there’s, Shanghai. Well, it wasn’t Shanghai.
Speaker: 2
01:59:57
It was another city in China that they were talking about. Maybe they just exaggerated the numbers. But Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Tokyo is a perfect example then.
Speaker: 0
02:00:04
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:00:04
Like, it’s weird how, like, New York City, Tokyo, and to some extent, LA, although LA is just so fucked up. Like, the downtown is the most useless part of LA. It’s really weird. Like, downtown l have you been to LA?
Speaker: 1
02:00:17
I’ve been a couple of times, but I’ve not really explored
Speaker: 2
02:00:20
Nobody goes downtown.
Speaker: 1
02:00:21
Okay.
Speaker: 2
02:00:22
Okay. Downtown is, like, they tried to revive downtown for a while before the pandemic, and then everybody gave up. But downtown, it’s not ai there’s a bunch of, ai, like, everybody has an apartment downtown. No. Most people live in the other areas of LA, and downtown is ai there’s some banks and some businesses, but there’s also Skid Row. Yeah. The downtown is crazy.
Speaker: 2
02:00:44
It’s like a really fucked up place. A lot of abandoned buildings. Like downtown is where we did a lot of Fear Factor stunts back in the day because we can get an abandoned warehouse to set up, like, a set there and and and do the show. So it’s it was it’s a very weird place. It’s not like a like, Downtown Chicago is booming.
Speaker: 2
02:01:01
You know, it’s downtown, Chicago, Downtown New York City, like, woah, you’re in Manhattan. This is crazy. Downtown LA is not like that, because LA is broken. So when you go to LA, it’s like downtown is like the most bizarre version of a downtown ever. Nobody wants to be there.
Speaker: 1
02:01:18
Yeah. Poor city design, I I guess.
Speaker: 2
02:01:21
I don’t know what it is. I think some of it has to do with what they did, when they made Sai Row. So Skid Row is an entirely constructed thing, and what they did was all the vagrants in Beverly Hills and in Hollywood, ai, listen, get the fuck out of here. You pick them up, you take them, throw them in the wagon, bring them to Skid Row, and then keep them there. Don’t let them leave.
Speaker: 2
02:01:44
Just contain them in an arya, and that’s essentially what they did. There’s a documentary on that hotel. What’s that hotel again, Jamie? Cecil. Cecil Hotel, where it talks about Skid Row vatsal.
Speaker: 2
02:01:55
Like, it’s the documentary is about this girl who was they thought that she was missing, that someone had kidnapped her or something, but she was schizophrenic. She got off her meh, and she apparently climbed into the water cistern and drowned. But the point of the documentary was not just that.
Speaker: 2
02:02:12
It’s ai this lady came here not knowing what downtown was.
Speaker: 0
02:02:15
And
Speaker: 2
02:02:16
so she got a room at the hotel downtown thinking, oh, get a nice room at a hotel downtown. But, like, it’s fucking Zombie Boulevard. It’s crazy. Show him what, what Skid Row looks like. Show him a video of what Skid Row looks like. Now, when we were filming Fear Factor, this was ai February, something like that. I accidentally drove through Skid Row. I drove to Skid Row. I was driving home.
Speaker: 2
02:02:42
Back then, I think I probably had navigation on my my ai car, but it probably sucked, or I wasn’t paying attention to it. And this is Skid Row. Skid Row’s nuts. This is close-up when you when you have, like, a lot like, when you see it from a distance, you get a chance to see how completely insane it is.
Speaker: 2
02:03:03
When we were filming, there was another fear factor we filmed there where one of the, contestants sai like, look, they’re smoking crack. We looked down and there’s people’s we were a lot ai on a rooftop or something, and then we looked down, people were smoking crack right in front of us, right on the street, like chaos, like Sai Row’s nuts.
Speaker: 2
02:03:18
And this is this is not even where the tents are set up. The the where the tents are set up, it’s the craziest thing you’ve ever seen. It’s ai these shanty villages that go on for blocks and blocks where there’s no cars going through. The streets are filled with homeless people.
Speaker: 2
02:03:35
Just everyone’s on drugs and there’s just tents everywhere. And you’re ai, what a failure of society. Yeah. What a failure of society that you’ve allowed this to reach the level that it’s at now. That’s LA.
Speaker: 1
02:03:50
Have you been to Tokyo?
Speaker: 2
02:03:51
Yes. I have.
Speaker: 1
02:03:52
Yeah. I mean, Tokyo is the complete opposite.
Speaker: 2
02:03:54
Complete opposite. You know? Super clean, very orderly. People are very polite. Yep. Even though there’s so many people in the street, everybody sort of navigates, moves around with each other in a very polite manner. I know. Beautiful architecture. Yeah. Stunning, ai, sai, as you sai. Very Bryden Runner esque. You’re like, yo. Don’t you I was only there for one day for the UFC.
Speaker: 2
02:04:15
So I didn’t spend a lot of time there, but I got a I had dinner there, and I hung out there for a little bit.
Speaker: 0
02:04:20
I was
Speaker: 1
02:04:20
like, this is crazy. Shows you that it is possible to have a very large, densely populated city that is safe and clean and functioning. Mhmm. It doesn’t have to be. People say, oh, you know, I got robbed. It’s just part of being in a big city or I was stabbed last night or my car was broken into and it’s, this is just what happens when you live in a big city, man.
Speaker: 1
02:04:40
And it’s ai, actually, no. It is possible to have safe and clean. And and and Tokyo is fascinating because it’s it’s an example of what’s often called an an emergent city. They don’t have this very strict zoning where, oh, here it’s gotta be offices, here it’s gotta be houses, here it’s gotta be small businesses, or anything like that.
Speaker: 1
02:04:59
It’s like, you it’s all mixed together and and different kind of neighborhoods kind of just emerge. You know, there’s a knife district, for example.
Speaker: 0
02:05:07
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:05:08
People who sell knives, they all gather together. There’s a bookshop district. There’s, you know, districts for all different things because they, not because someone has decided, oh, only bookshops can be here. It’s just that they tend to gather together.
Speaker: 2
02:05:22
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:05:22
And so you you know, you walk around Tokyo and you might you’ll find yourself in some quiet alley and you’ll have little houses and then you’ll have a little store, often very, very tiny stores that have been perhaps operating for for decades. And if in The UK or Ai guess in in The States as well, they would have gone under decades ago.
Speaker: 1
02:05:42
You know, the the city would have just crushed them.
Speaker: 2
02:05:45
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:05:46
But it’s it’s it seems very easy in in Tokyo to kind of open a small if you have a house and you own it in Tokyo, you can, by law, you can you can convert the the First Floor into a store. You’ll get these little old ladies, who will they bought their house decades ago, they’re ai, and they think, oh, what can I do with my time?
Speaker: 1
02:06:05
I know, I’ll open a cafe. And they say they they open a little cafe. Hardly anyone goes maybe. It might be could be in the ai, it could be on the outskirts or whatever, but it doesn’t matter because they own it. And they’re not being raped by, you know, taxes and stuff and all Right. And and all this kind of red tape. They don’t have to deal with it.
Speaker: 1
02:06:24
Sai they just have this lovely little cafe, entirely unique. They might fill it with things they’re interested in. So it’s a it’s a completely unique thing, that you can go in and she’ll serve you tea and maybe the cakes that she she made this morning. And there are thousands of these throughout Tokyo, not just little old ladies, but young people who own, who will rent very cheaply.
Speaker: 1
02:06:46
They have these have you seen in Tokyo? When you see the buildings, you often see these these neon, signs coming down the sides of the building. Mhmm. These are called zakyo, which is basically miscellaneous use buildings. And and what they are is just very tall buildings, and each floor, you will have some kind of business.
Speaker: 1
02:07:08
Could be anything. It’s often bars or, you know, pool ram or that anything you want, little restaurant, anything like this. And and, of course, they can’t they don’t have the the frontage on the Ground Floor. And so they instead, they will put their, their ai, neon sign, telling you what they are, down the side of the building.
Speaker: 1
02:07:32
And that’s what gives Tokyo that unique look is because it’s all the Zacchio buildings. Mhmm. And sometimes if you go, a friend, took me to this bar. Well, it was it was like a a building. It was in, Kabukicho, which is right in the center of, Tokyo.
Speaker: 1
02:07:50
And it was but it was on a side street, and there was this tall building, gray building. You would never look at it. No signage or anything. And you look at the the elevator. When you go into the elevator, on each floor, there’s ai a a name of a business, you know, Top Hat, Eight Ball, Enigma.
Speaker: 0
02:08:08
You’ve
Speaker: 1
02:08:08
no idea what these are. They’re not on Google Maps. Right? So and he just took pressed the button for the Eighth Floor. He went up, and it was just this little bar run by this one guy. And it was, you know, it would play darts and had a drink and a few people came in, not meh, because now most speak most people, 99.99% of the population of Tokyo have no idea that this bar exists nor could they ever know.
Speaker: 1
02:08:32
Because it’s not on Google Maps. There’s no reviews of it. It doesn’t exist and I couldn’t find it again unless I call my friend and say take me there. I can never go to that bar again ever because I I don’t know where it is. Right. And there’s thousands of these.
Speaker: 1
02:08:47
It’s
Speaker: 2
02:08:48
That sounds amazing. Yeah. I sana go right now.
Speaker: 1
02:08:50
Yeah. But you gotta take a risk because if you just go, if you don’t know Right. Ai, and you just press the button, you could be some weird girls ai, you know, host bar, you know, and they they kind of rip you off and stuff. There’s a lot of danger in going to these places.
Speaker: 0
02:09:03
Well, there’s a
Speaker: 2
02:09:04
lot of yakuza. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:09:05
There’s a
Speaker: 1
02:09:05
lot of yakuza in Kabukicho. Yeah. You gotta be very careful, because they will drug you, and then they will take you to a cash machine and,
Speaker: 2
02:09:12
you Take your liver. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:09:15
There’s a
Speaker: 2
02:09:16
lot of crazy stories. What when you, see that and you live like that, like, what keeps the rest of the world from having a city like that?
Speaker: 1
02:09:28
That’s a really good question, and I don’t wanna get well, I don’t know, but I think culture is everything. You know, obviously, a city is all about the people. You’ve of course, you’ve got to have the infrastructure, and you’ve got to have it’s got to be properly funded, but you also need, the people that are going to take care of it.
Speaker: 1
02:09:45
If your people are trashing it
Speaker: 0
02:09:46
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:09:47
Ai don’t have respect for the city, then obviously it’s gonna fall apart. But it’s all about the culture. Japan is fascinating. The culture I always say to people, when you go to Japan, you have to switch your mindset. So normally, as a Westerner, I’m thinking about me. When I’m out in public, I’m thinking about me. What do I want to do? Where do I want to go? It’s all me. In Japan, you flip that.
Speaker: 1
02:10:11
It’s about you should the first thing on your mind should be everybody else. When you hear Japanese people talk, you will about people who cause problems in cities. They use this word, which means often translated as nuisance. So people who come from the West, often, America, but not just Meh.
Speaker: 1
02:10:33
I’m not blaming everything on Meh, but it is often. And they come with their own, you know, they’re they’re the main character, this kind of main character syndrome.
Speaker: 0
02:10:41
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:10:42
So they, you know, they’re talking. They often you see these Instagram videos of people on on the the metro on the train, and ai, like, it’s so quiet. Mhmm. You know, nobody’s talking or nobody’s kind of listening to music, and that’s because they’re always thinking about the people around them.
Speaker: 1
02:10:58
They are thinking, you know, am Ai obstructing anyone? Am I getting any anyone’s way? Am I annoying anyone? Am I making anyone feel uncomfortable? You’re always thinking about those around you, and that leads to this very respectful, polite society where you can have 40, you know, 37,000,000 people, whatever it is, crammed together together in this relatively small area of land, and they’re not killing each other.
Speaker: 1
02:11:23
They learn I was tyler, I’m not sure if this is true, but there’s kind of a I don’t know if it’s a meh, But Japan is very mountainous. And so back in the old days, villages were isolated. So when you lived in a village, to get to the next village, you have to climb a mountain. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:11:42
So you’re trapped in your village, and so you have to learn to get along with the people around you. You can’t run away. Mhmm. And and so the Japanese culture has developed in the sense that you’re you always have to be aware of the people around you, and and that’s that’s been passed down into the modern age.
Speaker: 1
02:12:03
That the culture is always one of thinking about others and and and and respect from a from an early age.
Speaker: 2
02:12:10
That’s what’s so fascinating. It was ai, how come no one else figured that out? And also, what’s really strange is Japan itself right now is in the midst of population collapse. Yeah. Sadly. So that’s what sucks. It’s ai you could lose this, and it could be overwhelmed by the West.
Speaker: 2
02:12:27
Like, because of the fact that there aren’t having enough people to reproduce successfully to maintain their population, it could just be taken over, like, in terms of immigration. Like, Americans could just move there, and Europeans can move there. And then all the beautiful aspects of this very interesting and very unique culture
Speaker: 1
02:12:47
Yeah. Could go away. And they are really concerned about that. When I was when I was first, when I first arrived in Japan, like, ten years ago, I was worked at a university, and I ai stood on on campus outside just talking to someone. And I saw a couple of, like, they look like high school students probably on a a campus visit, out of out of the corner of my ai, Japanese high school students.
Speaker: 1
02:13:08
And they they caught my eye. They they they saw that I was looking at them. And as soon as that happened, they both, like, on a dime, stopped and bowed to me. And I thought, wow. Wow. We’re not in Kansas anymore. Wow.
Speaker: 1
02:13:24
You know, and that that having that teaching children about respect from a very and and training them, you know, the idea of respect your elders. This is, you know, we have this in the West as well, but we kind of lost it a little bit. Yeah. And it’s kind of drilled into them about respecting the people around you and respecting people who are older than you.
Speaker: 1
02:13:42
And this probably goes back to the samurai, you know, these these hierarchies. Yes. I’m
Speaker: 2
02:13:47
sure. I’m sure. Just and then you you think about, like, how crazy feudal Japan was and that it eventually evolves to what it is now, this incredibly safe society. Yeah. Exactly. It’s really kinda nuts. Yeah. Do you think about one of the most ai cultures of all time? Yeah. The culture that fought off the Mongols successfully.
Speaker: 2
02:14:07
You know? Pretty nuts.
Speaker: 1
02:14:09
Yeah. Yeah. It is. And, and but you see it. You see the remnants of that kind of the ancient societal structure. Even in the language, when you learn Japanese, there are several levels of politeness. Uh-huh. Right? You have so it’s really complicated, but, you have something called, which is kind of a formal or polite speech.
Speaker: 1
02:14:33
And if you arya talking to if you’re lower down and you’re talking to someone above you, you have to speak in a different even the words the verbs are different. The words are different. And if you’re speaking about them, then you have to use what’s called honorific, like you’re elevating them.
Speaker: 1
02:14:50
If you’re talking about someone up ai up, you have to elevate them, use honorific language. If you’re talking about yourself to someone who’s higher up, you use, humble language, so you lower yourself down. Sai, so it’s very difficult, you know, it’s still I still kind of struggle with it.
Speaker: 1
02:15:08
But and and it actually causes some problems because, it’s very difficult for junior people, to communicate with senior people, to to communicate honestly at least. So they just it’s you get a lot of it ai, yes, meh. Yes. I agree. You know? Meh. I agree with that.
Speaker: 1
02:15:28
You’re kind of agreeing with everything that the senior person sana. And that’s not a way to make good decisions. It’s by just agreeing. And so they have something called, nomunication. So this is formed from two words, communication, of course, plus nomu, which is the Japanese word to drink, and they’re talking about alcohol.
Speaker: 1
02:15:48
So Japan in Japan, alcohol is king, and society is actually lubricated by alcohol and functions because of alcohol. They have things called in in Japanese companies, they have these kind of semi obligatory, you know, semi compulsory events, called nomikai, which basically translates as drink meetings.
Speaker: 0
02:16:13
Oh, boy.
Speaker: 1
02:16:13
You might have heard about these. And then, basically, the senior people and the the more junior people, they all go together. They’ll go to a bar, with the express purpose of getting drunk. Not just to, like, have a drink with your colleagues, but to actually get drunk, become intoxicated.
Speaker: 1
02:16:28
And that allows more free flowing communication. It allows you to everyone is brought to the same kind of level. This is this is non communication. And so it’s facilitated by alcohol. Communication facilitated, by alcohol. So it’s a society that is dependent on alcohol in a in in a strong way.
Speaker: 2
02:16:46
What is their approach to other drugs? Ai, are what like, even casual drugs, like meh and stuff like ai. Are they highly illegal over there?
Speaker: 1
02:16:54
Yeah. It’s complicated, I would say. It’s weird because okay. So when when it comes to the law, people always say, oh, Japan has got, you know, the strictest drug laws in the world. First of all, no. It hasn’t. Go to Singapore. You know Settle down. Settle down. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:17:12
But when it when it comes to drugs, cannabis for probably for you know, after the saloni World War, when Ai think it was MacArthur that was drafting the the Japanese constitution and was basically controlling I mean, it had it was occupying Japan, of course, after the saloni World War.
Speaker: 1
02:17:31
And and America was in the, what’s that movie called? That nineteen fifties movie Weed Madness, Reefer Madness.
Speaker: 2
02:17:39
Reefer Madness.
Speaker: 1
02:17:40
Yeah. It was America was in the kind of Reefer Madness phase, and they they passed that onto the Japanese, and the Japanese have never really gotten over it. So but and then there’s meth, of course. I mean, meth came from Japan. Meth was invented in Japan. Right. It was used during the second world. The kamikazes.
Speaker: 1
02:17:59
The kamikazes. They actually used these little green tablets, that were called, storming tablets. Oh, boy. They were mixed with green tea and stamped with the crest of the emperor. Oh, boy. So they became like sacraments.
Speaker: 0
02:18:13
Oh my god.
Speaker: 1
02:18:13
They would pop those.
Speaker: 2
02:18:15
Yeah. Woo. Yeah. See how that worked out.
Speaker: 1
02:18:18
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But then at the end of the second World War when they had stockpiles of this meh, and it started to, it spilled out into the black arya, basically. And large very large numbers of people became addicted to to meth. And they were actually in Osaka in, I think, around 1954. I forget the exact year.
Speaker: 1
02:18:39
But in one year, the police raided, I think, around 50 meth labs in in one city operated by, you know, one or two people, like mom and pop operation. It’s like Breaking Bad. Right? You know, like you imagine meth labs in, you know, Arizona or something now. This was happening in Japan in the nineteen fifties, and it scared the shit out of the Japanese government because they were a defeated nation.
Speaker: 1
02:19:03
They thought that they were you know, it was the end of their civilization, and they thought that meth addiction was the symptom. It was gonna actually perhaps catalyze the the end of the the Japanese. It was an existential threat to the Japanese civilization, so they hit it hard legally.
Speaker: 1
02:19:19
And so now when, you know, Japanese law, they’re really focused on cannabis because of probably the American influence and meth. But psychedelics, most people in Japan probably don’t know much about. There’s a a psychedelic subculture in Japan. There are Ayahuasca circles in Japan, shah operate in a gray area of the law. It’s not explicitly illegal. It’s discouraged, but it’s not explicitly illegal.
Speaker: 1
02:19:45
I know people who import Ayahuasca raw Ayahuasca drink ram, from the Amazon and operate Ayahuasca circles.
Speaker: 2
02:19:54
You didn’t. Did you do the DMTX experiments in Japan? No. Where did you do them?
Speaker: 1
02:20:00
So okay. So we’re gonna get into DMTX. Yeah. Yeah. So DMTX came from an idea that I had in 2015. I worked with Rick Strassman on this. So DMT is kind of unusual. It has these weird pharmacological peculiarities. It’s as I said before, it doesn’t have subjective tolerance. So Rick Strassman showed in the nineties that you can inject someone with with DMT repeatedly, and they have the same intensity effect at each time.
Speaker: 1
02:20:32
But it also has another kind of a number of unique peculiarities. Of course, it’s very, very brief. It’s it’s it enters the brain extremely rapidly. It’s metabolized rapidly and cleared very rapidly. It had all of these pharmacological ecological peculiarities, and it occurred to me that these were precisely the characteristics you need of a drug, that’s used in anesthesiology.
Speaker: 1
02:20:56
So in anesthesiology, when they want to put you to sleep, make you unconscious, What they don’t do, they don’t just inject you with a drug and kind of hope that it keeps working, whilst they’ve got you under the knife. What they do is they use a very short acting drug, and they use an infusion machine, which delivers the drug, the anesthetic drug into your veins and goes to your brain, and holds the brain level of the drug constant over time sai that they can keep you in the anesthetized state unconscious for as long or short a period as they like.
Speaker: 1
02:21:31
And so it occurred to me that, well, DMT has the right drug properties. It’s like it’s almost like it’s designed for that, that kind of technique called it’s called target controlled intravenous infusion. And so I thought, you know, if we start if we take the DMT state seriously, and we treat it as a new world to explore, and, you know, intelligent beings with whom we can establish communicative relationships, then three minutes of a breakthrough trip is nowhere near enough.
Speaker: 1
02:22:04
And so I thought, well, let’s take this technology from anesthesiology, arya controlled intravenous infusion, and let’s repurpose it. So instead of an anesthetic drug that’s delivered by programmed infusion, we instead deliver DMT by programmed infusion and induce somebody into the DMT state, and stabilize their brain DMT levels, so you can hold them in the DMT state for thirty minutes or potentially for several hours, and have complete control in real time over the depth of the experience.
Speaker: 1
02:22:40
That was the idea. So I worked with Rick Strassman. I used his data blood sampling data that he acquired in in the nineties. You know, fortunately, he had this old Excel file which he sent to meh, and I built this mathematical model of DMT’s metabolism and distribution throughout the body.
Speaker: 1
02:22:59
And then we wrote a paper basically saying, we think this should work. We think we should be able to extend the d and stabilize the DMT state for many hours. But we didn’t actually it wasn’t kind of human ready, so to speak. And it actually took, about five years before, it was actually implemented in humans.
Speaker: 1
02:23:20
Sai that was actually done by the Imperial College London team. So they were the still are in a way, the leaders in in psychedelic research. And a guy called, then a PhD student, I think, Chris Timmerman, worked to make this proof of principle model that myself and Rick Strassman had developed, and and get it human ready and actually test, you know, does it actually work?
Speaker: 1
02:23:45
Do do the do the predictions that we had, myself and Rick Strassman, do they actually work in humans? And they found out that in fact that it does. You can induce somebody into the DMT state, and you can actually stabilize the experience. So rather than just being a oh, Jamie.
Speaker: 1
02:24:02
Since I’m talking about this, I Ai can show you actually what DMT trips or the kind of the time course of a DMT trip looks like over time. So normally, what happens is the blood level will rise very, very rapidly. You inject someone with DMT, blood levels ai, they reach the brain, and then almost immediately, they start collapsing down again exponentially.
Speaker: 1
02:24:30
And and that brief period when the brain levels are high is the breakthrough state. However, if you when the brain DMT levels reach a kind of a peak, you then start an infusion. You can basically compensate for the DMT that’s being lost by metabolism. It’s a bit like if you have a a bathtub full of water and you pull the plug, the water drains.
Speaker: 1
02:24:52
But if you turn on the taps, yeah, you can keep the level constant.
Speaker: 2
02:24:57
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:24:57
And so that’s the infusion. So you you you stabilize the state. And our our hope was that the actual experience vatsal, rather than that initial roller coaster phase that you get with DMT, where it’s all very, very disorienting and he’s like, you know, what’s going on? That’s for most people, that’s that’s kind of it, and then you’re dragged back out again.
Speaker: 1
02:25:17
But our hope was that actually over time, if you stabilize the d m the DMT in the brain, that it would actually stabilize the experience, then people can actually navigate and explore the space and even perform kind of experiments within the speak. And this is what’s become known as, DMTX.
Speaker: 2
02:25:40
And how was that? What did they describe?
Speaker: 1
02:25:43
Well, so this first study that was done just a couple of years ago, as I said by Imperial College London, it was really a it was like a pilot study. They wanted to show that it would that it worked and that it was safe, that it was tolerable, that people weren’t going crazy, you know, that they could handle it, basically.
Speaker: 1
02:26:01
The very first person to do it, was a guy I’m now working with. I work for a nonprofit called, NuNautics out of Florida, and we’re very interested in ai, experiments using DMTX to actually study the DMT space and and the intelligences within them much more, kind of formally.
Speaker: 1
02:26:23
And on the board, I worked with a guy called Carl Smith, who was the the very first person to undergo DMTX. He was also the only person to complete Sai think there was five sessions over several weeks. He was the only one Oh, boy. Who handled it, so to speak.
Speaker: 2
02:26:38
Boy, what’s his name? Carl Smith. Shout out to Carl.
Speaker: 1
02:26:41
Shout out to Carl.
Speaker: 2
02:26:42
You fucking
Speaker: 1
02:26:43
pioneer, you. You know? But what’s interesting is that the as we hoped and predicted, the the DMT state, it does stabilize. It’s like the brain is settling into constructing this alternate world model interfacing with this this this intelligence. And, he found that as he went back every time, he was interacting with the same entities, and they became aware of the fact that he was coming back so often.
Speaker: 1
02:27:10
And they were like, you know, what what are you not you again. You know, you’re you’re you’re back. And and one time they were scanning him, the the Imperial team, ai, I think, like an MRI machine or something. And the entities were gathered all the entities, he sai, as soon as they started scanning me in the quote unquote real world, the entities were gathered and they seemed like curious or confused.
Speaker: 1
02:27:35
Like, well, what
Speaker: 2
02:27:36
are they doing? Signal. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:27:38
Right. It’s like maybe it’s the signal or something or they were like, you know, we’re the ones that normally do the scanning. You know, we’re supposed to scan you. You know, what’s going on here? So there’s there’s as I said, it was just a pilot study, but there’s a real taste that you can enter into these, these kind of relationships with these entities.
Speaker: 1
02:27:59
Oh. And actually, we as I said, I I I work for this I’m a board member of this nonprofit called NewNautics. And our vision is really to design experiments with DMTX. Like, what would what does a research organization look like, that isn’t simply trying to explain away, DMT, explain it, but actually says, okay, this is a uncharted land that’s that’s fascinating, that’s inordinately complex and vast and filled with intelligences.
Speaker: 1
02:28:30
Let’s treat it like that Right. As explorers. What does a research organization aimed at studying that look ai, you know? And and we imagine I imagine that you’re not just sending, you know, for example, let’s take, the structure of the DMT space. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:28:49
It’s this highly complex geometrically and topologically strange, domain. So we send in people who are experts, who are mathematicians. We send in a a mathematician to study the topology of the space, to study how the space is structured. The entities, they often try to communicate.
Speaker: 1
02:29:09
They they use strange symbols and strange code. Oh, let’s send in a, a linguist who can study their language. And so you’re you’re sending in people with their own specialities, to actually formally study, the DMT space. Woah. And what’s even better is we now have a venue for this. So we’re actually, we have a I work with a company called Eleusis.
Speaker: 1
02:29:34
We have a special license from a a a country in The Caribbean, Saint Vincent And The Grenadines. And we we are setting up a retreat center, stroke research center, to provide DMTX, that is 100% legal, that is safe. You know, you’ve got anesthesiologists, psychiatrists, and nurses, you know, a perfect setting that’s also being designed in part by Karl Smith as well, that allows you to perform these kind of research, research studies aimed at analyzing and studying the DMT space.
Speaker: 1
02:30:16
But even better is it’s also gonna be open to anyone. So if you think about
Speaker: 0
02:30:21
Rick
Speaker: 2
02:30:21
Prepare for the freaks. Prepare for the They’re coming.
Speaker: 1
02:30:24
But, like, you know, in in the nineties, Rick Strassman, he did the biggest study of its kind. You’ve only had 60 people.
Speaker: 0
02:30:31
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:30:31
So you got 60 people worth of trip report. What happens if you can bring in 300, 400, 500 people a year?
Speaker: 2
02:30:37
How will you vet people to make sure they’re not crazy before they do it?
Speaker: 1
02:30:40
There will be a screening process, an initial screening process, and then ultimately you would have a psychiatrist who would sign them off. So it’s not just saloni, but anyone can, in theory, they can sign up. They can go to ellusismind.com, and they can put their name down and sign up to fly to this ai, Beckway, I think it’s called, and in a beautiful, perfect, setting, spend a week on the island and undergoing a number of DMTX sessions and, you know, being able to explore this world using the DMTX technology.
Speaker: 1
02:31:17
And of course, they will all be providing trip reports. So you you start to amass a vast data set of highly controlled ai. You know, this isn’t this isn’t like posting online where you don’t know what drugs they’ve taken really. Right. It’s like you know exactly what they’ve taken.
Speaker: 1
02:31:34
It’s pure pharmaceutical grade DMT and they they will generate this vast dataset that could be used, we’re also working to develop a, an AI powered model that would take in this verbal data and in real time generate imagery. So someone can talk to the the model, the AI model, and it will generate the image.
Speaker: 0
02:32:02
And then
Speaker: 1
02:32:02
you say, oh, no. This isn’t quite right. This needs to be more like ai. And so you’re converging on the You’re making a map of the territory. You’re making a map of the territory. And so you you end up with this vast ai, not just of textual trip reports, but also of, of imagery.
Speaker: 2
02:32:19
And this is available now?
Speaker: 1
02:32:20
It will it’s opening with kind of we’re building it’s being developed now. It should be open officially on March year. So go to yeah. Ellusismind.com.
Speaker: 2
02:32:30
That’s soon.
Speaker: 1
02:32:31
You can sign up.
Speaker: 2
02:32:32
That’s just enough time for people to prepare.
Speaker: 1
02:32:34
Yeah. And it will be the first I mean, it’s gonna be the first of its ai, you know, a totally legal, safe, medically supervised, location where people can, endure and I say enjoy, can sai experience DMT.
Speaker: 2
02:32:48
That’s the thing about these ancient civilizations. Mhmm. Whether it’s Egypt or whether it’s, ancient Greece where Ulysses was ram, they all were using psychedelics. There’s there’s evidence of psychedelics in all of these ancient civilizations. It’s just our completely twisted sick society that’s decided that the most beneficial drugs should be the ones that are the most illegal
Speaker: 1
02:33:16
Yep.
Speaker: 2
02:33:16
Which is you and you lump them in with the ones that destroy lives. They’re they’re categorized with meth Yep. Which is completely insane and the sign of a twisted sick culture. It’s the sign of what McKenna was talking about with the chaos the chaos of a species that’s preparing to leave for the stars.
Speaker: 1
02:33:37
Yeah. I think so. And, but things are changing. You do see positive changes
Speaker: 2
02:33:42
The Internet.
Speaker: 1
02:33:42
The attitude to society.
Speaker: 0
02:33:44
We’ll we’ll
Speaker: 2
02:33:45
understand it now. And I think there’s also a ai shift towards, people on the right accepting it because so many soldiers have come back from war and used it, and and had great benefits.
Speaker: 1
02:33:58
Yeah. Precisely. Yeah. Yeah. So facts perhaps things aren’t as bad as things things in some ways are getting better. They’re getting worse in other ways, but they’re getting better in others. They they’re moving. Right? Yeah. They’re definitely that’s it.
Speaker: 0
02:34:09
And I
Speaker: 2
02:34:09
think you need bad in order to inspire good. Yeah. That’s unfortunate, but I think that’s just historically, that’s always been the way Yeah. That we figure things out.
Speaker: 1
02:34:17
Yeah. I agree.
Speaker: 2
02:34:19
Andrew,
Speaker: 1
02:34:20
it’s been
Speaker: 2
02:34:20
so much fun. I really enjoy this. Let’s do it again. Let’s do it again when the place is open. Sai and we should get some
Speaker: 1
02:34:26
Would you like to trip reports. Are you interested in doing DMT?
Speaker: 2
02:34:29
Allegedly. We’ll talk off air. But, this book that you wrote is available now, Death ai Astonishment. Death by Astonishment. Is it in audio form as well?
Speaker: 1
02:34:39
Yeah. Read by myself. Beautiful. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:34:42
You got a great voice for it. Perfect.
Speaker: 1
02:34:43
Thank you
Speaker: 0
02:34:43
so much.
Speaker: 2
02:34:43
I’m so happy that you read. I love when authors read their own work. It’s so important, I think.
Speaker: 1
02:34:48
They wanted to get an actor. Fuck, actually. Actors. Because I was in Tokyo. Oh. I sai, no. No. No. No.
Speaker: 2
02:34:53
He gets some weirdo who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:34:56
No. He needs you.
Speaker: 2
02:34:58
Thank you very much, man. It was really fun. I enjoyed it.
Speaker: 0
02:35:01
My pleasure. Bye, buddy ai.