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#2399 – Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep Podcast Episode Description
Daryl Davis is a blues musician, race relations expert, and author of several books, including “The Klan Whisperer.” Jeff Schoep led America’s largest neo-Nazi organization, the National Socialist Movement, for nearly three decades before renouncing its ideology. He is the author of “American Nazi: From Hate to Humanity.”www.daryldavis.comwww.jeffschoep.com
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#2399 – Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep Podcast Episode Top Keywords
#2399 – Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep Podcast Episode Summary
Based on the provided context, the phrase “has joined the group” refers to someone becoming a member of a group, band, club, or team. Throughout the conversation, there are multiple references to joining various groups, inviting members, and welcoming new people. Specific examples include:
– “we joined the band”
– “He should’ve joined the…”
– “Join the team.”
– “Welcome to the club.”
– “add one more bestie.”
– “they’re in, they’re in.”
– “invite you to…”
These statements all indicate the act of someone joining or being added to a group or collective. However, the context does not specify exactly who “has joined the group” in a particular instance. The general meaning is clear: it signifies the addition of a new member to a group. If you are looking for a specific individual who joined a specific group, that information is not explicitly provided in the context.
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#2399 – Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
Speaker: 0
00:01
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00:12
Okay. Gentlemen,
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00:13
good to see you, brother.
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Hey. Good to see you again.
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00:15
How you been?
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00:15
Good. Hanging, man. How about yourself?
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00:17
I’m good. I’m good. And, Jeff, nice to meet you as well. Nice to meet you, Joe. This is, another one of your very unusual friendships, Daryl.
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00:25
I’m trying to make it the norm.
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00:27
Do you
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00:27
understand? Well,
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00:28
I mean, you’re you’re a real example of what can be done, but just by being a nice person.
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00:34
Hey. Thank you, man, for for the mention with, Bono. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure.
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00:41
So for people that don’t know, Daryl has, I mean, how many people now have you converted?
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00:48
I I’ve I’ve stopped counting after 200 and some.
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00:51
Daryl, his journey initially arya. You’re a musician. You met a Klansman at a bar, and he couldn’t believe what a nice guy you were. You struck up a friendship
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01:00
ai this guy. Like Jerry Lee Lewis, and he didn’t understand that.
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01:04
That too. The talent. And then, this guy quit the clan because of you and handed you his outfit and sai, like, I’m done. Obviously, I’m wrong. All this is wrong. And you then went on to start meeting a lot of other clan members and a lot of other, you know, different neo Sai factions, and you got a lot of these people to quit these hateful organizations.
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01:31
Well, I got them to to rethink, not because I gave them things perspectives they had not considered before or not been exposed to, and that caused them to quit. You know? It wasn’t like I was Ai wasn’t trying to get them out. I’m just trying to show them a different path.
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01:47
Right. But it’s just your patience and your ability to communicate to people is just very admirable. Because that’s a very tough path. You know, you for people just listening, you’re a black man, you’re meeting a Klansman and you strike up a friendship. You have one of ai dinner at his house, hanging out with him. He’s like, you’re actually a really nice guy.
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02:08
He’s like, fuck, what the fuck am I doing with my life? And just by your own personality and just being a a good human, you you converted him.
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02:19
But, you know, an interesting component to that also happens because, you know, there are people who won’t talk to me, you know, and they wanna fight me and stuff, all the kind of crazy stuff. I’ve seen it all. Right? Mhmm. But, the some of their buddies who are just as hateful as they are, you know, when they talk to me and they end up leaving, their life improves.
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02:37
Hate is exhausting.
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02:38
Right.
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02:39
You know? And it hate begets more hate.
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02:42
Yeah.
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But sai when they leave, their life improves, and then the buddy who want to fight me or or didn’t sana talk to me, he sees his buddy’s life improve, then he reconsiders. Yeah. So it has has that component to it as well.
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02:54
And sai it’s been more than 200 now, which is really amazing. And, Yuval, I think just these conversations that you’ve had with a lot of people sort of opened up a lot of people’s eyes as well. It’s like, you know, you think of someone ai that’s a KKK member, neo Sai, or whatever it is, and you go, well, that guy’s gotta be a piece of shit as a human being.
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03:16
And then you ai, like, well, a lot of these people just got fucked over in life and started off on the wrong foot and were with the wrong people and got indoctrinated to the wrong ideology and experienced the wrong things. And next thing you know, they have this rigid idea of what the world is and how they fit in, and it’s all fucked up and it’s all wrong.
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03:37
And they just don’t run into anyone that shows them a different perspective. Like, if you’re in a small town and you’re around just a bunch of assholes all the time, you’re around the same assholes, like, you might think everyone’s an asshole. Right. And then you go on vacation to, you know, maybe in your whole in Ai, like, god, it was nice here. What’s going on?
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03:56
Maybe I have a totally different view of the world. Well, you could have that with everything. You could have that with geographical locations. You could have that with racial disparities. You’d have that with everything.
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04:05
Well, I
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mean, you know, let’s let’s let’s take racism out of the picture for a second. Let’s let’s look at our own country. You know, as a musician, right, I do a lot I’ve I’ve played in all 50 states. Okay? You know, and when I sign, you know, go to I have a booking and sai, let’s say, New York City, you know, everything’s got, you know, gotta be on paper.
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04:23
Ai sign this contract, and they want things like yesterday. You know, it’s very fast paced, etcetera. Mhmm. So, you know, you sign a contract and people adhere to it, whatever. My experience in the South, you know, say Mississippi, Georgia, something like that, they don’t care about contracts even though I I get one.
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04:41
You know, a handshake is good enough. You know, they they they feel that their word is their bond. Ai so, you know, you you present them with a contract. It’s like, what? You don’t trust me? You know, that kind of thing. Right. Right.
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04:51
In the Midwest, which is where I’m from originally, you know, it takes a while for people to get to know you. They want they wanna get to know you before they commit. They’re very close to the vest. Out in California, it’s like, I’ll get around to it maybe next week, maybe the week after. You know? Right.
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05:06
Right. Now, Jeff, how did you guys meet?
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05:09
So, I was contacted by a filmmaker, and they said, would you come down and and film, as part of this program? So I didn’t know I was meeting Daryl Davis. In the movement, we knew who Daryl Davis was because he was pulling people out of
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05:21
this movement.
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05:22
Explain the movement. The What movement you were part of?
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05:25
I was a part of the National Socialist Movement.
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05:28
I was just Nazis. Nazis. For people that don’t it sounds like socialist, like, oh, college campuses, you know, you want Marxism, free health care for all.
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05:36
No. Different kind of socialism. Yeah. Yeah. Neo Nazism. Yeah.
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05:41
Sai
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And how did you get indoctrinated into that? So I was a part
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05:45
of that movement for twenty seven years. Wow. Twenty seven.
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05:48
How old are you?
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05:49
So I’m 51.
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05:50
Okay. You look young. I thought you’re about 40. I was like, what the fuck? Well,
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05:54
that’s that’s okay.
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05:55
No. You look good.
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05:56
Thank you.
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05:57
Which is crazy for a Nazi. You think it’s a lot of stress.
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06:00
You think it is a lot of stress? Hate I lost my hair. Yeah. Look. I lost my hair. Mine too. I’m not a Nazi.
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06:10
So how old were you when you got into it?
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06:12
When I first started the fascination with it was about fourth grade. Fourth grade? Fourth grade. How? My grandfather fought Hitler’s army during the war, and my great uncles did as well. So, my mother and grandparents came over after the war.
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06:26
Wait a minute. Fought in Hitler’s army? Correct. Oh, they fought for the Nazis. Yes. Wow.
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06:33
Yes. So, my mother and grandparents came over after the war. But so you one would think, so he was indoctrinated by his family. Not not the truth. Quite opposite, actually. But I was fascinated. I knew that history, and I knew that my grandfather had fought, and I looked up to him.
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06:50
So, I sought out on a journey myself, you know, and, God bless.
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06:55
What attracted you to that? Like, first of all, you you said you have a meh in Detroit church. Are you from Detroit?
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07:00
Yes. Well well, I’m based in Detroit now.
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07:02
So were you living in Detroit at the time? Yes. So why what made you fascinated with Nazis living in Detroit?
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07:10
Well, I grew up in rural Minnesota. Okay. And I live in Detroit now is what I meant. But, knowing that family history, I just, looked up to my grandfather and I thought, you know, he’s a strong individual. This is a, Ai just gonna say it. Like, I thought it was cool at the time. There’s nothing cool about it, but I wasn’t taught to hate. I wasn’t raised to hate.
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07:29
And, so I seek out this movement. I join as a teenager, quickly rise up through the ranks. Within a couple of years, I was appointed a national leader of that organization, and then I was there for twenty seven years. So I was taught racism and hate and to be an antisemite.
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07:44
Now when you were in the fourth grade, what were you what were you do you remember what your feelings were about people?
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07:50
I I wasn’t a racist at that point or or anything like that. It was just thinking that it was cool seeing the videos of I remember watching old World War two documentaries thinking I’m gonna find my grandfather in these these footages, you know, and, I just looked up to him and I sought out that path.
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08:06
And once you’re indoctrinated, once you join and you’re you’re, overwhelmed with this kind of ideology, it becomes your whole world. It’s your echo chamber. Everything about it, everything that you’re involved in, circles around that world.
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08:19
And so, like, when you’re in the fourth grade and you meh interested in this, how do you eventually, like, join up and meet the Nazis? Like, how does that happen?
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08:26
Well, at that age, you’re not, you know, you’re not meeting the Nazis or anything like that. Today, kids are online and they’re
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08:33
Right. And they are. That’s a good point. Ai?
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08:36
But at that point, I wasn’t. So I was searching it out and by the time I was, 18, then I’m joining.
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08:42
Yeah. You didn’t have Kanye songs back then.
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08:44
Right.
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08:46
This song is so crazy. Ai, somebody needs to pull Kanye sai and give him a hug. That sounds crazy. So you what was the first organization that you, like, officially became a part of and ai officially became a part of, and what what did they do? So the
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09:01
National Socialist Movement was the group that I sought out.
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09:04
How did you find them, first of all? Because it was all before the Internet. Right?
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09:07
Right. This sai a really kind of strange story. So I’m looking for books. I’m trying to read everything I can on it. I’m trying to find these
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09:13
Did you have other hobbies or just being a Nazi?
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09:15
No. I had I I had
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09:16
either baseball or anything like that?
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09:18
I was a long haired rock and roll singer.
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09:20
No fucking way. Right? You are rock and roll Nazi? That’s nuts. Ai? That seems like sai that’s like jumbo shrimp. That’s so counterintuitive. How are you a rock and roll Nazi? Rock and roll is all about like freedom and creativity and expression.
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09:39
I I know there’s a lot of counterintuitive stuff in my life.
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09:42
Wow. Yeah.
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09:43
Well, it just shows you people are really complicated. Yeah. You know, so when you first found these people, so you’re a rock and roll musician, and, how do you how do you find them?
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09:55
So I found them in a book at the library. I’m ordering all these books, and it was written by a sociologist or something, and they had all these addresses of everybody that participated in the book in the back of the book. So I’m writing physically writing, not like emailing today, but, like, writing all these organizations.
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10:11
And then Ai eventually
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10:13
How old
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10:13
were you at the time? Like, 18.
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10:15
So you’re 18. You’re writing Nazi groups saying, hey. I’m ready. Sign me up. Yep. Wow. Okay. So who responds?
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10:23
So everybody per some of the groups are closed down at that point, but most of the groups responded. And I’m looking through all the literature and and, I meet up with the National Socialist Movement at the time. It was called National Socialist American Workers Freedom Movement.
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10:36
Again, this is the Nazis. That’s a lot
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10:38
of words.
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10:38
That’s what I thought. Yeah.
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10:40
So Imagining Workers Freedom Movement. Yeah. It’s
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10:42
a lot of a lot of and Freedom
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10:44
for some people.
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10:45
Yeah. Yeah. Ai. Another counterintuitive thing there.
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10:49
Socialist for some people.
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10:51
Ai. Not that socialism, not left wing. Yeah. Weird socialism. Yeah.
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10:56
So ai what were they involved in? Ai, sai when you meet them, do you have to have like a is there a vetting process? They make sure you’re not a fed or sit you down and, you know, what are you looking for? Why are you involved? Why are you interested?
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11:09
Yeah. And back back then, the group was pretty small. But the reason that I picked that organization I mean, it was only in a handful of states at the time I joined. It was pretty small. It was a it was a the National Socialist Movement was a continuation of the movement of George Lincoln Rockwell, who was the original founder of the American Nazi Party.
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11:26
So that’s why I wanted to join that particular organization because it had that ai Ai was a fan of history. I always wanted to be, as close to the German movement as possible. And so that was that was the group that I sought out. And then there there is, like, a vetting process.
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11:43
You know, they wanna know you sign up an application and, later on in in the group, I was doing things like having people sign nondisclosure agreements and, doing background checks on people and things of that nature.
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11:55
I sana point this out because this is a really crazy fact. It’s gonna blow a lot of people’s minds. Before World War two, there was a Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden.
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12:07
Yeah. Meh Bundt, the German American Bundt. Yep.
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12:10
It is nuts when you see it in Madison Square Garden and you see, you know, the swastika, the whole deal, and you’re ai, this is before anybody had connected this with evil. Right. Like back then, that was an ancient Hindu symbol. Like, there’s a Hindu temple near my old house in California, and it has swastikas all over it.
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12:30
And they because of the the temple’s from the eighteen hundreds, and they have to tell people, hey, like, this is a sign. Hey. It’s not that kind of swastika. Ai.
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12:37
Back in 02/2018, the state department sent me over to India to speak and lecture. And you see these these these,
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12:43
symbols. Yeah. Yeah.
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12:44
It’s a it’s a speak good luck ai of thing.
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12:47
It was also a symbol for Shotokan karate. When I was a kid, when we would meet, these Shotokan karate, tournaments, would go to tournaments and meet these, practitioners. Some of them will have swastika patches. This is in the eighties. Mhmm. This is nuts. Wow. Jamie, show that photo again. There’s a video. Oh, okay. Show the video.
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13:06
The it’s really crazy because you you see this enormous crowd, and this was before people had associated Nazis with a bad thing. You know, back then, it was just this national socialist party. They thought, okay, we’re we’re good. By the way, that’s how everybody used to salute the American flag.
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13:28
Did you know that?
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13:29
Yes.
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13:30
Which is really crazy. The Sai salute now that Elon got in trouble for, that is how you used to pledge of allegiance.
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13:37
Right. Yep.
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13:38
And then once the Nazis came on, ai, we gotta abandon that. This is this is connected. Gotta ditch the little mustache and no more of that. But this is, it’s sai it’s a really crazy video to watch because it really makes you think, like, how things can shift.
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13:54
Well, you know, the the highest percentage of white people in this country are of German descent.
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14:00
Really?
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14:00
Yeah. The second highest are British descent. Yeah. Wow.
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14:04
I had no idea. German. I would’ve. A lot of
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14:07
people think it’s British, but
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14:08
I would’ve thought yeah. God, that’s nuts. And then
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14:11
you notice in that video, Joe, they also have George Washington up there. So they they’ve Americanized ai, Nazism.
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14:18
But it was different back then. Right? This wasn’t a racial cleansing, like, they they weren’t involved in eugenics. They weren’t thinking in those terms. Right?
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14:27
I think that all came later, but this was all part of the the movement here in The US.
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14:32
Right. But what was the core tenants of this movement, the American Nazi movement in the nineteen thirties before the war? Basically, it was a it was a German activists, and and they were allied with, you know, Hitler’s National Socialism that was So was it anti Semitic? Was it anti Jewish back then?
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14:49
Sure. Yes.
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14:49
It was. Even so this whole rally is a big anti Semitism rally.
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14:53
Yeah. I mean, I that was before my time, but
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14:55
I I you’re a historian on the Nazis’
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14:57
side. Yes. Yes. Seems like
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14:58
you’re an enthusiast.
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15:00
I was. Yeah.
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15:04
So when you first get brought in, you’re 18, like, what do they give you tasks to do? Do they teach you about things? Like, how does it go?
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15:12
Yeah. So a lot of the propagandizing and stuff is books that you’re reading and studying and stuff, but the group had ai meetings. You would have literature distributions. It would do, ai, the
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15:22
mind comp? Like, what kind of reading that? Yeah.
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15:25
Ai had already read that ai at 16, I already read that. But the group is, you know, recommending books like that or Henry Ford’s International Jew, other other, other books like that as well.
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15:36
Is that Henry Ford the the car guy? Yes. He wrote a book called International Jew? Yes.
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15:40
You know, he was very, very anti Meh, and he he he supported the Nazis.
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15:44
Mhmm. Woah. Yeah. Henry Ford had a picture of Hitler on his desk, and Hitler had a picture of Henry Ford on his desk. Desk. Woah.
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15:54
You’d be surprised, man, about I drove here on Ford. People. Fuck. You know, Walt Disney, same thing. IBM at the ai,
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16:04
same thing.
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16:05
Yeah. Oh, I knew
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16:06
about Walt Disney. I did I had heard about Walt Disney. And I heard something about the roots of IBM as well. Well, I mean, so many German automobile manufacturers. Right? Like Audi, Volkswagen, you know, all started off as Nazis. Even Mercedes. Right? Or wasn’t a Nazi owned company?
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16:22
I don’t know if
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16:23
it was if they were owned by the Sai, but they were definitely a German company. Yeah.
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16:26
That was one of the craziest things about the Kanye thing. Because Kanye, lost his contract with Adidas because he had said anti Meh things. Adidas was started by the Nazis. Wow.
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16:40
Which is just like like, wow. People people can advance and change. Yes. You know, the Red Cross used to not allow black blood. And then when they finally allowed black blood, they sai, you know, to donate blood.
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16:52
When when when
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16:53
Back when the Red Cross first started collecting blood. Okay. Because, you know, as you know or you probably know, Charles Drew, you know, a black, ai, right, was the one who who discovered how to give, you know, blood transfusions. Right? So Red Cross began collecting blood and, they would not take black blood. And then when they finally took black blood, they segregated the blood.
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17:16
It doesn’t matter if
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17:17
it’s sai
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17:17
black person’s blood. You know, you should segregate it by o positive or o b negative or whatever it is. Right? But not by the color of someone’s skin. That’s crazy.
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17:26
So they give you books. They, you know, kind of indoctrination. Like, what is in what is it involved in being a member? Champions are made and legends are tested as UFC three twenty one brings Tom Aspinall versus Cyril Gane to the world. And DraftKings Sportsbook, the official sports betting partner of UFC, puts all the action from Abu Dhabi in the palm of your hand.
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19:06
Basically, you know, you go to meetings? Yeah. You go to meetings. You do, auction these meetings? It it varied. You know? So sometimes it was once a week. Other times it was once a month. It just kinda depend it depends on the group as well. Some are very active. Some are less active.
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19:20
How far were the meetings from your home where you lived in Detroit?
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19:23
Well, this was growing up in Minnesota. Okay. Minnesota. In Minnesota, they were pretty close by. I moved to the Twin Cities. Wait.
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19:28
Were you shocked by that they were that close?
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19:31
No. No. I I had Ai had been looking for them since I was a teenager, but then by the time I was 18, I was able to find them.
Speaker: 0
19:38
Did you move to be close to where the meetings are held?
Speaker: 2
19:41
No. I moved to The Twin Cities because I wanted to be close to my ai. I think they started there. So but then, early on, I was doxed on a radio show. I was going under a fake name at, like, 19 years old, and Ai still have the long hair. I got it tucked up in a hat, and I went on a radio shah, and I was, doxed early on. And that kinda changed the trajectory.
Speaker: 0
19:59
What did you go on the radio show for?
Speaker: 2
20:01
With the movement. With the Oh. Social.
Speaker: 0
20:03
And then you got doxed as a band member? Well, no. I I You got doxed, like, your home address and all that stuff? My parents. Oh.
Speaker: 2
20:10
So I I was going I was going under the name Jeff Stevens because I didn’t wanted to I wanted to separate my music career from Right. From the movement and also protect my family because I knew this was a a movement that people didn’t like and that could cause put them in harm’s way.
Speaker: 2
20:23
And, so, I’m on the air, and somehow the the host says, you know, your name is not I’m spewing antisemitic drivel, which was pretty typical of of how I behaved at the time. And, the woman that was, running the show, she goes, your name is not Jeff Stevens. It’s Jeff Scoop, s c h o e p.
Speaker: 2
20:44
And your mother lives in this town. She’s an attorney. She works here. Your father works in manufacturing. He works here.
Speaker: 2
20:51
And we’re gonna call your mother in the next commercial break, and my world just fell apart. And Ai you know, I look back now, and I try not to blame anybody else because these are my choices, my poor choices, so I take responsibility for that. But, at 19 years old, that changed my trajectory. I felt like my whole world just collapsed at that point.
Speaker: 0
21:12
Did you think, like, wow, all these people are mad at meh? Maybe I’m wrong?
Speaker: 2
21:16
No. You know, you would think with this kind of stuff going on in your life, you know, you would, reflect on that, that, but I double down. And that’s pretty common in in that, in that world when someone is faced with that kind of pressure is they double down, they become more entrenched.
Speaker: 2
21:30
So it’s ai every lash of the proverbial whip, anybody that ai stop me from being involved in it or tried to dissuade me, it just made me more, dedicated to it and more intense in that belief system. So I’m I’m thinking my I’m gonna ruin my band’s career now. So I quit the band.
Speaker: 2
21:47
I shaved my head, and, that I put all that energy ai I had put into music, into the movement. I felt like I had no choice. What that what that did, that doxxing, it affected my mother’s career. So, I mean, this was a hate has consequences, and hate was some it was ai a downward spiral for for me, and this is very common for anybody that’s involved in it.
Speaker: 2
22:09
It separates you from your family, from those you love. It, isolates you. And what it did to my mother’s career is, as I mentioned, she was a lawyer. She wanted to be a judge, so she had ran to be a judge. She was elected to be a judge.
Speaker: 2
22:23
And, in the state of Minnesota, there’s a at the meh, anyways, this is back in the nineties, and there was a formality, and this is the way my mother explained to me at the time. She sai the governor called me, and she said, missus Scoop, your son’s a leader in the Nazi party. Your father fought in the German army during the war.
Speaker: 2
22:42
I do not feel you are fit to be a judge in this state. Mhmm. So that that was just devastate that’s something I carry that guilt and shame to this day for for doing that. But at the time, I was like, okay. The system is after my family. That’s how I felt. And it just made me double down and become more, radical.
Speaker: 0
23:01
We did you have a job at the time? Yeah. What did you do for a job? Ai, I
Speaker: 2
23:05
was doing all kinds of jobs. You know, working in factories and Pizza Hut and, you know, just any anywhere I could.
Speaker: 0
23:12
But your main focus was on the movement?
Speaker: 2
23:14
Well, my main focus was on music until all that happened. Right.
Speaker: 0
23:17
And
Speaker: 2
23:17
then and then it became the movement. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
23:20
And sai, like, what are the different things that you guys did?
Speaker: 2
23:26
So the group would organize, you know, social gatherings where people would just hang out and drink and party and give talks, and then there would be, formal meetings where people would get dressed up and have these meetings. You would do, rallies, one of the first rallies that
Speaker: 1
23:42
dressed up.
Speaker: 2
23:43
Dressed up in, ai, Nazi uniforms. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
23:46
Ai, like, full on German Nazi uniforms, arm bands all deal?
Speaker: 2
23:50
Yep. Back then, it was arm bands and brown shirts and black ties. Yep.
Speaker: 0
23:55
Is that you?
Speaker: 2
23:56
Yeah. That’s that’s the old uniform. Yep. Oh, that’s crazy.
Speaker: 0
24:04
So at any time while you’re doing this, did you think, what am I doing? I’m on the wrong path. This is crazy. No. No. No. Not till later. When was later? Around the time when I met Daryl Davis. Were you already having second thoughts about the direction of your life?
Speaker: 2
24:25
That’s that’s a tough one
Speaker: 0
24:26
to answer. I was I was starting to see the humanity in others. Like, after I I moved
Speaker: 2
24:30
to Detroit in, December ‘7, And Detroit’s a a majority, minority city or a non, people of different races. So I’m having more interactions with people of other races. By 02/2016, you know, Ai met Meh Davis. And, like I said, I didn’t know I was meeting Daryl Davis. But, How’d
Speaker: 0
24:50
you guys meet?
Speaker: 2
24:52
It was, for a film for Daryl’s film, Accidental Courtesy.
Speaker: 0
24:55
Okay. Right.
Speaker: 2
24:55
So they had reached out and they explained the shah, and I said, okay. You know, because any opportunity to, spread the propaganda of the movement, I’m gonna do it unless it was, like, Jerry Springer or something. So it sounded legit. I agreed to it. Didn’t know I was meeting Daryl.
Speaker: 2
25:10
I still would have done it, but I would have probably prepared to debate this guy because I knew who he was. I knew he was pulling people out of the movement. And and, so this was at a place called, Chris’s Hot Dogs in Alabama where Hank Williams had written a song. It was, hey. Hey. Good looking. You’re out there.
Speaker: 2
25:27
Right?
Speaker: 1
25:27
Meh a waitress.
Speaker: 2
25:28
Right. And, my girl and I were sitting outside, and Daryl steps out of a vehicle, and I was thinking, you know, I recognize this guy. He comes up, shakes my hand, and we shake hands. Ai I think he says, hi. I’m Daryl Davis. You must be Jeff Scoop. And I’m thinking, where do I know that name from? Where do I know his face?
Speaker: 2
25:46
It didn’t quite register because I’m just thinking about, you know, this debate that we’re gonna get into. And then after we sat down, it clicked. I was like, oh, this is the guy that gets people out of these organizations. So at this point, I’m the head of the National Socialist Movement, and Daryl and I are getting along great. We’re talking about music.
Speaker: 2
26:07
We’re talking about all these ai of things, and it clicks in my head. Oh, wow. I’m getting along too well with this guy. He’s the enemy, you know, or so called enemy. You know, he’s on the other ai, so I better step it up here.
Speaker: 2
26:19
So I pound my fist on the table, and I said, you know, Daryl, I’ll fight to the last bullet for my people.
Speaker: 1
26:25
Yeah. And how Howard, prior prior to to us getting together, the producer and director of the, meh is called Accidental Courtesy. They asked me you know, they they followed me around the country. I was conducting interviews with the KKK members, Black Lives Matter, and different, you know, people.
Speaker: 1
26:44
And they said, do you know, Jeff Scoop? And I said, I know who he is. I’ve never met him. Would you be open to talking with him and interviewing him? I said, sure. So they contacted him. And, then they let me know, okay.
Speaker: 1
26:59
You know, he we were down in Alabama at the time. You know, he he’s gonna come down to Alabama. You know, you can interview him tomorrow. And what did this place called? Chris’s hot dog stand or Chris’s grill, whatever, where Hank Williams made famous. And we’re we’re gonna do this interview in there.
Speaker: 1
27:14
So they said, they got me a rental car, put me in the hotel, and sai, we’re we’re gonna get everything set up. We’ll get we’ll have Jeff here, and we’re gonna film you when you first come in and meet Jeff. Meh we we sana catch that on camera, then you’ll sit down across from him in the booth and interview him. I said, okay. Fine.
Speaker: 1
27:33
So I go to the hotel, wait for their call. They call, I sai, okay. We’re ready. So I get in this rental car and I drive to the to the, grill. And when I pull up, I see who looks like Jeff sitting on this bench out front with this girl.
Speaker: 1
27:47
So I’m thinking, well, that can’t be him because he’s he’s supposed to be inside sitting in the booth. So I just sat in the vehicle, you know, looking at ai, trying to figure this out. Maybe he came out for a smoke or something like that. I’m watching him. He’s not going inside. So I got out.
Speaker: 1
27:59
And when when I got out and started walking towards him, I I think, you know, that is the dude. I I never met him, but I knew what he looked like. I said, you ai, I wonder why he’s out here. So I went over. I said, hey.
Speaker: 1
28:10
Are you Jeff Scoop? He goes, yeah. I said, I’m Darryl Davis. Chuck his hand. He introduced me to his to his lady friend.
Speaker: 1
28:16
And I sai, I thought you’re supposed to be inside. He goes, well, I was inside. I just came out or whatever. So we walk in. Of course, they didn’t get to capture the moment that we meh. So they’re ai all freaked out and stuff.
Speaker: 1
28:28
And, we sat down in the booth and I started I started interviewing him and as he pointed out, you know, he he was getting along too well with me. You know, just chitty you know, chit chatting, talking about music and this, that, and the other. And he’s saying, you know, you know, he was a musician.
Speaker: 1
28:47
I said, I’m a musician. I said, what kind of music do you know do you do you like? What kind of music do you play? Well, I play rock. And I said, well, you know, rock was invented by by black musicians. Oh, let’s not go there. You know, Elvis Presley invented rock. No. Elvis did not invent rock.
Speaker: 1
29:01
Right? I sai, Chuck Berry invented rock. Right?
Speaker: 0
29:04
And he
Speaker: 1
29:04
goes, okay. Well, you know, you probably know more about music than I do. Know? So but what what difference does it make, you know, what what color the musician is? I said, well, it doesn’t make any difference to meh, but but obviously, it makes a difference to you because, you know, in in our history books, you know, we talk about Ben Franklin.
Speaker: 1
29:19
Who who cares what color Ben Franklin is? You know, if he invented electricity, he invented electricity. Right? And he goes, well, yeah. Well, I know I know about the guy who invented peanut butter. And I said, okay. I’m serious. Saloni he asked, okay. What’s his name?
Speaker: 1
29:33
He thought about he goes, Carver. Carver. I said, what’s his first name? Ai said, George Washington Carver. I said, okay. Very good. I shook his hand. Right?
Speaker: 1
29:40
And so then, what did you say? He, you know, he’s he runs the the NSM, Vatsal Socialism Movement. And the whole white supremacy ideology is called the movement. Ai? So anyway, I said, well, he goes, you know I I said, it’s a racist movement. He said, no. It’s it’s like a white civil rights movement for white people.
Speaker: 1
30:01
He goes, you know, you you you got the NAACP. And I said, yes. I said, but there are white members of the NAACP. Can I join the NSM? He goes, no. And, you know, I I said, ai not? Well, then it’s a racist movement.
Speaker: 1
30:16
And then we got into and he goes, you know, I will fight for the last bullet for my people. I’m like, woah. You know, he just kinda like, you know, flipped out here. I said, okay.
Speaker: 0
30:25
Did you do that because you were realizing that you were getting a little too friendly with him?
Speaker: 2
30:29
Oh, yeah. Yes.
Speaker: 0
30:32
That’s so funny. Like, I’m keeping my ideology no matter what. Yes. Yes. That’s funny. You’re not gonna trick me by me being a cool guy.
Speaker: 2
30:44
We laugh about it
Speaker: 0
30:45
now, but at the time, I was pretty stressed out.
Speaker: 2
30:47
I would imagine. Yeah. Because, I realized it. But, you know,
Speaker: 0
30:51
what year was this?
Speaker: 1
30:52
02/2016. ’16.
Speaker: 0
30:53
Darrell, what was the first year you came on the podcast? Oh, gosh. It’s kinda around then. Right?
Speaker: 1
31:02
Yeah. ’15 or ’16.
Speaker: 0
31:03
Yeah. So how many other different things had you done where he he he had known about you? Had you done, like, a lot of different interviews? A lot of different
Speaker: 1
31:14
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I’ve been, you know, doing a lot of interviews, magazines, and
Speaker: 0
31:19
Sai you guys were just very aware of anybody who was, like, fucking up the cause.
Speaker: 2
31:23
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
31:24
With their awesome personalities.
Speaker: 2
31:31
I mean, think about it. You’re in you’re in this movement, and you’ve got a guy that’s pulling people out. And he and he’s not just pulling out just anybody. Some of these people Grand Wizards. Grand Wizards. Grand Ai. Imperial Wizards. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
31:41
Wizards and Dragons is fucking hilarious, by
Speaker: 2
31:44
the way.
Speaker: 1
31:45
So after after the thing was over, you know, they’re, you know, meandering around putting their cameras packed up. I pulled Jeff aside and just, you know, talked to him, just one on one, man to man, no cameras, whatever. Ai, you know, we talk just talked about a couple different things, talked about women and the sai and the other. And just, you know, what guys talk about. Normal.
Speaker: 1
32:07
Yeah. And, and we exchange phone numbers. And then, the following year, 02/2006, ’17, he was involved in the, in that large white supremacist rally in Shah, Virginia that turned deadly. And I knew a lot of the people who were involved in there including,
Speaker: 0
32:26
That was the one when the guy the car ran over people in the crowd?
Speaker: 1
32:29
Yes. And I know the guy who organized that thing. He’s been in my house, you know. I’ve I’ve sat down with them. I’ve been in some of their homes, etcetera. And, I’ve gotten wind that, that Jeff was was, was rethinking, you know. I said, you know what? Let me, you know, let me let me stop reading all this stuff and find out for myself.
Speaker: 1
32:49
So I found his number that, you know, that he had given me and fortunately, he still had the same number. I called him up and we which, you know, he remembered me, of course, and we chatted on the phone. And then I had, we we we stayed in contact. And and then in 02/2020, I had a gig up in New York City.
Speaker: 1
33:10
And they were you know, they booked me and said, you know, you know, talk about, you know, how you meet these people and what you all talk about and and what they think about this. I said, well, wait a minute. I can tell you about how I meet them and and how I go about it. But as far as what they think about stuff, I can tell you, but vatsal be secondhand. I sai, if you want, I can bring I can bring people.
Speaker: 1
33:29
Because every now and then, I bring up a former Klansman that I took out of the movement or whatever to talk, you know, answer questions.
Speaker: 0
33:35
I sai, how about if
Speaker: 1
33:36
I just bring somebody? You know, woah. You know, we got we got clear that with with with the sponsors or whoever. So they got back to me and said, yeah. You know, who do you wanna bring? I said, well, you know, let you know, let me let me give you some options or whatever. So I called Jeff.
Speaker: 1
33:51
I said, you know, would you be willing to come out and talk about, you know, your experiences, what got you in, what got you out, etcetera. And he said, yeah. Sai, I called him meh. I said, okay. I got this guy.
Speaker: 1
34:01
He was the commander of the largest neo Nazi organization in the country for twenty five years. He was a twenty seven year meh. And, they said, okay. Fine. So, I called Jeff back and said, okay. You’re on, man. They’re gonna they’re gonna fly you out to New York and you’ll come on.
Speaker: 1
34:17
And this is the first time, you know, we’d ever done anything together like ai, you know, where where where we both are on the same page. Right? And, it went over very, very well, and that was the last gig either of us had before everything got shut down for COVID.
Speaker: 0
34:32
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Speaker: 0
34:56
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Speaker: 0
35:14
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Speaker: 0
35:39
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Speaker: 1
35:59
Well, both in the same mindset. You know, he he’s not fighting to the last bullet for his people. He’s fighting for all people. He’s he realizes that, you know, what what he had experienced for twenty five for twenty five out of the twenty seven years he was a member, he no longer wanted to do.
Speaker: 0
36:16
And so when exactly was that shift for you?
Speaker: 2
36:19
So I broke free from the movement in early in March ’19, but I was going through this process for several years. So, typically, you want somebody in, like, the work that we do. We want someone to disengage from the movement, and then we work on the deradicalization part. My journey was backwards. So I’m deradicalizing while I’m still involved. Now if somebody would have told me that while I was involved, those were in fighting words, you know.
Speaker: 2
36:44
But it was basically, like, the mind wasn’t catching up with what was going on. So that’s when I was starting those last years when I was involved. I’m saying this is a white civil rights group. It’s not a hate group. You know? And from the outside looking at, you go, man, this guy’s insane.
Speaker: 2
36:59
Of course, it’s a hate group. You know? And I see I see that now, obviously.
Speaker: 1
37:03
Tell me about your girlfriends who told you it was a cult.
Speaker: 2
37:06
Yeah. So, when I was involved, every girl that I was seeing, I I was, seeing quite a few different women. Just about everyone were that if they would come and check out the the movement, they would say, woah. This is like a cult, and you’re like a cult leader. And I’m thinking in my head, what is wrong with these choices I’m making in women? What is with these poor choices? You know what I mean? Like Right.
Speaker: 2
37:28
That’s a serious cognitive dissonance. But that’s that’s the that’s the thought that that goes through your head is, like, it’s it’s not me.
Speaker: 0
37:36
So was it initially meeting Daryl that started this journey for you?
Speaker: 2
37:41
Yes. It was one of the major, major first seeds.
Speaker: 0
37:44
And so but you guys hadn’t seen each other ai a while. And then on your own, you just started exploring these ideas and changing your perspective.
Speaker: 2
37:53
Well, that and then not long after meeting Daryl, I met a a Muslim filmmaker by the name of Diya Shah. And, in her film, White Right Meeting the Enemy, and I’ve gotten to know Diya quite well over the course of that filming. And, there was a number of people that left the the NSM from interacting with DIA. And, she has a very similar approach to how Daryl Davis approaches things.
Speaker: 2
38:15
It’s about listening. It’s about being curious. It’s about asking questions and sharing different perspectives. And, that that curiosity and that that, sincerity, it can help, re restructure the way someone thinks and the way they see see people. So, like, Diaz says to me, and this is actually in the film Ai Right meeting the enemy, you can see see the change.
Speaker: 2
38:39
Like, I showed a clip a lot of times at my talks, and I’ll tell the audience. I’ll say, take a look at my eyes in that clip because you can see it. The cameraman caught it, zoomed in on my eyes. She’s saying, you know, the ideology that you instead of telling me that I was wrong, she showed me.
Speaker: 2
38:53
She says, the ideology that you stand for, the things that you believe in, they made me feel less than, ugly, not worthy. As a child growing up, that’s how I felt. That’s how your ideology made me feel. And no one ai from Daryl Davis had ever approached me with anything like that. I was told I was wrong, but that human connection.
Speaker: 2
39:16
When you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process, and Ai lost my humanity a long time ago. And what Daryl and DIA did is they cracked that door open, that window to compassion, and I could see their humanity. Daryl did something very similar. He told me about how racism and hate affected him as a child growing up. That hurt. That hurt. You know?
Speaker: 2
39:37
I mean, I’m not gonna say it at the time when I’m still in the movie, but on the inside, it really hurt. That bothered me. It’s ai, this is not this noble grand cause that I believed it was if it’s causing that kind of pain and suffering to other people.
Speaker: 0
39:50
So what were the steps that you had to take before you were ready to leave the movement?
Speaker: 2
39:55
I hate to try everything, and I I I beat myself up over that, a lot. But I I kept saying it’s a white civil rights group. I’m telling every press outlet I’m sitting down with when they’re in don’t call us a Nazi group. It’s It’s a white civil rights organization. Of course, most of them wouldn’t publish that because it is what it is. But I’m going through these different changes.
Speaker: 2
40:14
I’m having rules put into the organization where, the last couple years, they changed from the swastika on the public view to using a an old runic symbol, the otol rune. Today, they switched back. They use the swastika again. But I was doing things like that to try to change the image of the group as my own beliefs were shifting.
Speaker: 2
40:33
I was trying to shift that into the party. And and eventually, I was like because as a man, I thought I’m gonna fix this. I gotta fix this. What this mistake that I made, this this, terrible, movement, I’ve gotta fix it. And there’s no fixing it.
Speaker: 2
40:47
All I was doing was putting lipstick on a pig, you know, dressing up the Nazi party ai to make it look pretty. It still is what it is. So eventually, after 2019 rolls around, I was like, I I just have to I have to get away from this. This is not right. I can’t
Speaker: 0
41:02
fix it. Was the response within the movement when you left?
Speaker: 2
41:07
Not so good. Not so good.
Speaker: 0
41:09
You can leave these organizations, and
Speaker: 2
41:11
it depends. Different groups operate different ways. What I was involved in was above ground, so it’s, mostly legal. You’ve got underground groups that operate a little bit differently. They’ll come after you and things like that. You can leave, but if you walk away and you speak out against it, you’re deemed like a traitor, basically, to that cause.
Speaker: 2
41:31
So I knew that was going to happen when I started speaking out, so I didn’t speak out immediately. But, by the end of, late two thousand nineteen, it was August or September ’19, I started speaking out and denounced the movement, denounced racism.
Speaker: 0
41:45
This is before you did that event with Darryl?
Speaker: 2
41:48
Oh, yeah. Yeah. By that time, I was already out.
Speaker: 0
41:50
And so how were you denouncing the movement? Where were you doing this?
Speaker: 1
41:54
I
Speaker: 2
41:54
did a press release and a website and and, made it public because, that’s that would be seen and and understood.
Speaker: 0
42:02
Now were you concerned at all about retaliation, about you being attacked or them coming for you?
Speaker: 2
42:09
You know, there’s always those concerns, but I I don’t I don’t try to dwell on those, those things. You know? I was in a high stress, dangerous environment
Speaker: 0
42:16
for
Speaker: 2
42:17
a lot of years. So this is just another kind of, high stress ai. But I don’t want people to, you know, be afraid to leave. There’s there’s no reason to be afraid to leave. You know? I mean, obviously, you gotta be aware of your surroundings and wise to it, but, I’ve you know, I’m I’m always prepared.
Speaker: 0
42:34
And when you were leaving and you, you know, when you were on your way out and changing your ideas about the movement and then leaving, did anybody come with you?
Speaker: 2
42:43
A lot of people came with me. The National Socialist Movement was the largest neo Nazi organization of its kind when I left. Today, it’s it’s quite small. It’s barely hanging on.
Speaker: 0
42:53
So People
Speaker: 1
42:54
in this movement began emailing meh, people I didn’t even know, and asked meh, is this true? Because he’d mentioned my name or whatever else. And I said, yeah. And next thing you know, they’re leaving. And Ai call him. I said, you know, do you know so and so? Yeah. He he was in my movement, you know.
Speaker: 1
43:10
I said, well, he called me or he emailed me and and and wants to get out.
Speaker: 0
43:14
Wow. So how many people do you think left?
Speaker: 2
43:17
Oh, hundreds left. Hundreds left.
Speaker: 0
43:19
How many how many are in? It it’s How big is the movement in total?
Speaker: 2
43:24
Rough. We never had a a solid number on it. But over the years, I could tell you there was thousands and thousands of people that were involved. And then, you know, we would work with other organizations. So I spoke at clan functions, skinhead functions, other other, white nationalist organizations functions.
Speaker: 2
43:38
So because I was that high profile in that world and and, I was the most high profile white nationalist to ever walk away in The United States. So I felt like Not
Speaker: 0
43:51
just walk away, but denounce. Denounce. And Yeah. Shah completely shift your perspective.
Speaker: 1
43:56
So I
Speaker: 2
43:56
felt like I I needed to do something right to make up for the damage that I had done, and and this
Speaker: 0
44:01
is one way to do it is to help other people, break free and get out of that world. So And so is this a continual process? Do other people from the movement now start to read your stuff and see you speak and then leave as well? And you also have a book out. Just tell everybody it’s called American Nazi ram Hate to Humanity. And, there it is. Did you do an audio version of this?
Speaker: 2
44:22
It’s in the works. Okay. Yeah. It’s not out yet.
Speaker: 0
44:26
So do more people continue to reach out to you that are in the movement because of this and try to get out as well?
Speaker: 2
44:31
Absolutely. And we’re helping people all the time. Daryl and I both are helping people all the time get out. And and, it’s because of that, presence that I had there, a lot of people will say, you know, I I knew him then or I knew of him. So they’ll they’ll feel comfortable in reaching out. So it’s kinda like street cred, I guess. You know?
Speaker: 2
44:50
Like like, if you were an alcoholic for twenty years and, you know, that you have a more of an ability to help other
Speaker: 0
44:57
people. Yes.
Speaker: 1
44:58
And another thing, you know, people like like Jeff and people of that, status that, you know, the high status, it takes, you know, while while they may change themselves, it takes them a while to figure out if they can leave because that’s their job. In Jeff’s case, he he that was his job for twenty five out of the twenty seven years he was a member to lead that organization and build it and recruit and bring people in.
Speaker: 1
45:25
He brought in numerous people. So number one, how do you go back to those people and sai, I was wrong? You know? You got all this power. Everybody looks up to you. You’re you’re their leader. Right? Their cult leader, as your girlfriends would tell you. So so Thanks, Daryl.
Speaker: 1
45:43
But so, you know, that weighs on you. And then, you know, that is your full time job while you’re in there. You know, the money you make is from selling Nazi ai, t shirts, you know, armbands, you know, whatever else you have, medallions, etcetera. So now you’re leaving. How are you gonna pay your bills? How are you gonna support your family? All that kind of thing. You know, you need a job.
Speaker: 1
46:09
Well, you’re not trained in anything else, number one. And then what are you gonna put on your resume when you go to apply for a job? I was a Nazi leader for twenty for the last twenty five years.
Speaker: 0
46:19
Right.
Speaker: 1
46:19
So, you know, all of that weighs on you. And so you need some ai of outside support, you know, and which is a lot of stuff, you know, you know, that I provide because, you know, you you talk somebody and you give them another perspective and and they leave. You can’t just leave them swinging in the wind and you go on about your business. Right.
Speaker: 1
46:35
Because, you know, they they have to to to to to belong to something or or enter into ai. And they can’t go back. They’ve already betrayed, you know, their, quote, unquote, family. So they’re gonna find something else to get into unless, you know, you provide that kind of support.
Speaker: 0
46:53
And what support do you provide them?
Speaker: 1
46:55
The shoulder to talk to, connect them. I brought him to New York, had him speak to to crowds, and the interesting thing happened. I want I want I want you to tell the story about Duke. You know, show him do it to other people. Let him know, hey. Daryl Davis is not an exception, you know, because, you know, what what I need to do, I find oftentimes is, you know, when I become friends with these people, they the mentality becomes, you know you know, Daryl’s okay for a black ai.
Speaker: 1
47:25
Sai all those other black people or all those other Jewish people, you know, that kind of thing. So when when I feel I can trust that individual, right, you know, that they’re not gonna bring harm to I’m I’m not I’m not concerned about myself, but I know that they’re not gonna bring harm to friends of mine or other people, then I will invite them, you know, to my home, invite some of my Jewish friends, some of my other black friends, some of my white friends who look just like them but don’t agree with them.
Speaker: 1
47:50
So that way they can see Ai not the exception. Maybe they are the exception because now they’re being exposed to people who think the same way I do.
Speaker: 0
48:00
Right. Now you you were you doing that for money? Were you running the movement? Was that your job job or did you have another job as well?
Speaker: 2
48:08
For a lot of years, I was, basically running the record label of the movement and that was that was my job as well. So Oh,
Speaker: 0
48:14
the movement has a record label? White Power Rock. Yeah. Oh, Christ.
Speaker: 2
48:18
Yeah. So that’s that’s that was my job. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
48:23
So you gotta find another job too. Yeah. And you have to find a job where they’re willing to hire a Sai. Former Nazi. Former. Recently.
Speaker: 1
48:31
Get a retro.
Speaker: 2
48:31
Come on.
Speaker: 0
48:32
Come on, Joe. Recently though. I mean, it’s tough on a resume. Yeah. What did you wind up doing for work?
Speaker: 2
48:38
It it was tough. It was tough for a while. Now Ai help get people out of extremist groups. I speak all over the country, all over the world. I’ve spoke at, I’ve been at Nobel with, the Nobel Peace Center with Diacon. I just got back from Australia, did a book tour over there.
Speaker: 2
48:54
I’ve spoke at, combat antisemitism movement. Today, I do a lot of work with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, educating young people. I’ve done, stuff even with the with the government, US government. I’ve advised other governments as well on extremism. Sai, this is, this is what I do now.
Speaker: 0
49:13
What did you do right away, though? Like, what was the first things you did?
Speaker: 2
49:17
I really had to do a lot of self work, a lot of a lot of processing. It it was that was But,
Speaker: 0
49:25
like, ai you do to make a living?
Speaker: 2
49:27
I didn’t. I was living off ai savings. Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
49:31
Are you familiar with Simon Wiesenthal? Yes. Okay. So he Jeff now works with the Simon Wiesenthal Center. That’s a complete one eighty. You know, he was the most famous, you know, Nazi hunter. I knew Simon Wiesenthal.
Speaker: 0
49:44
Oh, really?
Speaker: 1
49:44
Yeah. I’ve been doing this for, like, forty five years. And, back in the nineteen eighties, I went to Vienna, Austria, which is where he lives, and I had dinner with Simon Wiesenthal. Wow. Yeah. And picked his brain. Wow.
Speaker: 1
49:56
How old
Speaker: 0
49:56
was he back then?
Speaker: 1
49:57
Oh, he was old back then. Yeah. Ai I’m not sure how old he was. He’s probably maybe in his seventies maybe.
Speaker: 0
50:03
You know you know a fun fact? If Wernher von Braun, the not the head guy from NASA that got us to the moon, if he was alive today, the Simon Wiesenthal Center said they would prosecute him for crimes against humanity.
Speaker: 2
50:16
Wow. I did not know that.
Speaker: 0
50:17
Meh was a legit Nazi. Yeah. Operation Paperclip. The United States brought over all the best Nazi rocket ai to structure our rocket program. Yeah. Fun fact.
Speaker: 2
50:31
A lot of people don’t know that, but that’s true. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
50:33
Well, they all had those dueling scars on their faces too.
Speaker: 1
50:36
So when I, got Jeff to, to do the thing up in New York, he asked me, you know, is this open to the public? And I I said, yeah. You know, anybody can come. And, ai goes, yeah. I Ai I’m I’m inviting a friend of mine who lives in New York. He was he was my chief of security, you know, while I was in the movement, you know, this you know, and now now he’s out.
Speaker: 1
50:59
And so you go ahead and tell tell that. This is amazing story.
Speaker: 2
51:03
Right. So, it’s okay to say his name because he’s public out with it, but, this is Duke Schneider. He was my chief of security for a long time, and he had left the movement before I did. And his story was, you know, it’s a love, conquer, hate story. So he had some kind of thyroid issues, cancer in his his thyroid, and he was in the hospital.
Speaker: 2
51:24
And his father’s nurse was a woman by the name of Catherine. She’s the African American lady. And, she was there with Duke in the hospital, and and he’s like, Catherine, you don’t have to stay here at the hospital with me. You know? You can you can leave. You don’t need I might be here for a while. And she says, I’m not leaving your side.
Speaker: 2
51:43
I’m gonna be here in this hospital until you walk up out of here and you’re better. I’m gonna stay here, you know, so don’t argue with me. I’m gonna be here. And at that moment, Duke looks to her and he says, when I walk up out of this hospital and get better, I’m gonna marry you.
Speaker: 2
51:58
Woah. And they have been married ever since. And this is one of the I mean, this couple, if you see them, you’d swear they just ai high school sweethearts. They’re just amazing amazing people. There’s Duke Schneider. Yes.
Speaker: 0
52:11
That’s crazy. Wow.
Speaker: 1
52:16
So, you know, this goes to show, Joe. I mean, we all you, Jeff, me, anybody we know when we were kids, we were told a tiger does not change its ai. A leopard does not change its spots. That’s who they arya. And that is true. You know?
Speaker: 1
52:29
So why would we think that a Nazi or neo Nazi or a Klansman would change their robe and hood or their swastika armband or something. Well, that’s where we’re wrong. The the stripes and and spots on the tiger and lion are immutable characteristics. They’re born with those. They can’t change them.
Speaker: 1
52:45
But the the the Klan robe and hood and the swastika are are acquired. That’s learned behavior, and what can be learned can be unlearned. Jeff is an example of that. Duke Schneider is an example of that. And when I first got into to to wanting to meet these people, Ai wasn’t trying to get anybody out, and I still don’t really try to get people out.
Speaker: 1
53:08
I just wanted an answer to that question that plagued me from the age of 10. How can you hate me if you don’t even know me? Just tell me that and then you go your way, Ai go my way. But what happened was during the conversation, you know, you start off this far apart on the ideological spectrum. You talk to somebody for five minutes.
Speaker: 1
53:26
That gap narrows because you found something in common.
Speaker: 0
53:29
Right.
Speaker: 1
53:29
You keep on talking. Now you’re here. You found more in common. At this point, you’re having a cordial relationship with your adversary. You know, you might not be going out to dinner with him or whatever, but you’re having a cordial relationship. Keep on talking, and you found more in common.
Speaker: 1
53:43
And and now it’s it’s it’s like a friendship. You don’t agree on everything, but you have found more in common than you have in contrast. And the trivial things that you found in contrast, like skin color or whether you go to a church or synagogue, a mosque, or a temple began to matter less and less because it’s caused a cognitive dissonance.
Speaker: 1
54:00
Yeah. And that and so when the first person left, I I thought, you know, this person this is a fluke. You know? This guy probably wasn’t, you know, invested in it fully. But then it happened again and again and again. And I thought, okay.
Speaker: 1
54:14
Well, now something I must be doing when I’m interviewing these people. This is back when I was writing my first book. What am I doing? And I narrowed it down to about five core values that everybody wants Between traveling with my parents as a child in the, you know, US State Department, foreign services, diplomats, and now traveling as an adult, musician, and lecturer.
Speaker: 1
54:37
I I told you before, I’ve been to all 50 states. I’ve been to 64 countries on six continents. And I can tell you this. No matter how far I’ve gone from our country ai next door to Canada, right next door to Mexico, or halfway around the globe, no matter who I meh, maybe around the world, they don’t look like me or speak my language or worship as I do or not worship at all, I’ve always concluded that every person I’ve met is a human being.
Speaker: 1
55:01
And as such, every human being wants these five core values in their lives. Everyone wants to be loved. We all sana be respected. We wanna be heard. We wanna be treated fairly and truthfully. And we want the same things for our family as anybody else would want for their family.
Speaker: 1
55:17
And if we can learn to apply those five core values or any of those five values when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation or in a culture or society in which we’re unfamiliar or uncomfortable, I’ll guarantee you that your navigation of that society, that culture, that situation will be much more smooth, much more positive, and much more productive.
Speaker: 1
55:39
And so that’s what was happening because these people ai been interviewed before, but they didn’t leave. So that, you know, is how you talk to people, not more so than what you say to people and how you listen to them, you know. And when I say respect, it doesn’t mean that I respect what they’re saying. I’m respecting their right to say it. Right?
Speaker: 0
56:00
Right.
Speaker: 1
56:00
And so I think, you know, that’s been one of the key things, that worked with with, Jeff and worked with other people. And when it started happening more and more, I realized I stumbled onto something, and I needed to keep doing this. And that’s why I’m still doing it, today.
Speaker: 1
56:14
And Jeff and I go out, you know, oftentimes, we know we just came back from, Indianapolis a few weeks ago. We were in Orlando speaking to the to the Holocaust Center there and wherever else.
Speaker: 0
56:26
When you look back on your life and you think about the enormous amount of time that you spent in the movement and now being essentially of a completely different mindset, like, what does that feel like for you when you look back on yourself?
Speaker: 2
56:41
It’s it’s ai two different people. So, like, a lot of times when I’ll speak about that life, I’ll say that was my past life. You know, I know it’s not my past life. It’s still the same life, but it it is like looking back at a different person. Like, when I started doing work with the Wiesenthal Center, one of the things was after after talks, a lot of people in the Jewish community were ai, I don’t get it.
Speaker: 2
57:04
I don’t you’re such a nice guy. I don’t get it. It doesn’t make sense. So we started showing video clips of my speeches and things that I did when I was in the movement, ahead of those things. And I was always and and then people were like, oh, now
Speaker: 0
57:18
I get it. You know? Because they they could see it. They could
Speaker: 2
57:20
see how different that was and how how different the person is, not the person nice guy that they met, but that’s who I was. So and I and I always try to get out of showing those clips. I’m like, could I be backstage or somewhere else? Because I don’t wanna look at it. Like, Sai Right. It’s hard to I mean, I can look at it. Obviously, I do it all the time, but it’s tough. It’s tough because it’s ai, meh.
Speaker: 0
57:42
Does it feel shame?
Speaker: 2
57:43
Shame, guilt. You just feel terrible about it. So Ai think that drives the work a lot of the work that, I’m doing now and and, is is to help others and to repair some of that damage that’s been done.
Speaker: 0
57:56
Well, I think your perspective is very important for people to understand that, you know, someone can shift their mindset and that just because someone has a hateful evil ideology they’ve attached themselves to, doesn’t mean they’re a hateful evil person inherently. It’s learned behavior and learned thinking. And this is the problem with human beings is we’re incredibly malleable.
Speaker: 0
58:22
You know, human beings are we follow the leader and we adopt ai, and we’re also very tribal. So you become a part of a group whether you call it a family or a team or whatever. You hate the other people because they’re they’re the enemy now. It’s us against them. We’re all in this together and that unites everybody.
Speaker: 0
58:42
It’s a part of the movement and it makes you feel like you’re a part of something bigger. Yep. Yeah. It’s a trap. It’s a terrible trap and it’s a trap that human beings can easily fall into.
Speaker: 0
58:53
And you see it with political ai, you see it with religion, you see it with everything. I mean, people just we we are very tribal and, that can manifest itself in some very disgusting thinking.
Speaker: 1
59:08
I wanna add something to that. I think you’re a 100% right for the most part, but, the ai thing never never came into into play with me and nor did it come into play with other people who were raised the way I did, I was. Ai first started traveling abroad overseas at the age of three in 1961. I was born at 58, so I’m 67 now. And my first introduction to school was abroad.
Speaker: 1
59:39
The state department assigns you to the American embassy in some foreign country for two years, and then you come back home at the end of the two years. You’re here for a few months, maybe a year, and then you’re back over to another foreign country for two years, back and forth back and forth.
Speaker: 1
59:52
My dad’s job as a US diplomat was to foster better relations between a foreign country and our US government. Right? So which is why, you know, we’re overseas. So my first intro introduction to school was abroad. I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different schools in different countries.
Speaker: 1
01:00:10
The in between grades, I would do back home here. Right? My my classmates abroad now we’re talking about the nineteen sixties. My classmates abroad were from all over the world because anybody who had an embassy station where we had our American embassy, all of their kids went to the same school.
Speaker: 1
01:00:29
So this little girl sitting at this little desk here might have been from Czechoslovakia, that kid from Nigeria, that kid from Italy, that kid from Japan. You know? If you open the door to my classroom and look in, you would say, oh, you know, this is a United Nations of Little Children. That’s exactly what it was.
Speaker: 1
01:00:43
That became my baseline for what school was supposed to be. But every time I’d come home, I would either be in all black schools or black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated. And just because desegregation was passed four years before I was born in 1954 by the Supreme Court, schools did not integrate overnight. It took years and years.
Speaker: 1
01:01:05
And even in some places today in 2025, this country is still struggling with integration. Right? So that became my norm, you know, this multicultural thing. I didn’t know tribes. Everybody was part of my tribe.
Speaker: 0
01:01:19
And
Speaker: 1
01:01:19
that’s why I didn’t understand racism. Because, you know, now if I if I had grown up here my whole life and and my first experience with somebody who did not look like me was having bottles and rocks thrown at me at the age of 10 in in a parade, maybe I wouldn’t be doing this work today.
Speaker: 1
01:01:34
Maybe I would be, woah. I’m I’m gonna stay away from those from those color of people.
Speaker: 0
01:01:38
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:01:38
You know, that kind of thing. So I didn’t know tribalization simply because of my, my growing up experience. Very unique experience. Exactly. And most Americans didn’t have that. Now today, you know and back then, you know, you buy your kids you come in nineteen sixties. You buy your kids dolls. I had GI Joe dolls. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:01:59
You know, I I don’t have any siblings, but, you know, my friends, you know, they have Barbie dolls. And back then, all the GI Joes were white. All the Barbie dolls were white. So black kids had to play with little white dolls. There was nothing that looked like them.
Speaker: 1
01:02:13
Today, you have, you know, all kinds of color of dolls and and nationalities and ethnicities, which broadens the scope of these children. So when they see the real deal walking down the street, you know, well, that’s my favorite doll. So, you know, I’m okay with that person rather than, you know, you you reinforce that tribalism by buying your kids the dolls that look like you and your parents.
Speaker: 0
01:02:37
Yeah. Well, that makes sense, and it also sets you up to be uniquely qualified to do what you do. You know? Like, as a person who did grow up around so many different people.
Speaker: 1
01:02:47
So I try to share that, I guess, you know, vicariously Yeah. With people.
Speaker: 0
01:02:51
Jeff, did you grow up around I mean, other than when you moved to Detroit, were you around mostly white people? Like
Speaker: 2
01:02:59
Yeah. So grow where I grew up is, like, in the middle of the Cornfield, basically. I grew up in a little town. It was barely a thousand people, all white, basically. The only interactions you had with other races was typically in the summertime, like, when, farm workers would come up from Mexico and and things like vatsal.
Speaker: 2
01:03:16
And a lot of times, people just didn’t talk to them. So I didn’t really have in any hardly any interactions with people of other races.
Speaker: 0
01:03:23
So where did the negative ideas about other races come from?
Speaker: 2
01:03:27
The movement.
Speaker: 0
01:03:28
It came from the All from the movement. Not from personal experience at all?
Speaker: 2
01:03:31
Nope. Nope. I did not have bad personal experiences. In fact, even to this day, most of the bad personal experience I had with other people I mean, I’ve had assassination attempts. I’ve got scars from attacks, all white people.
Speaker: 0
01:03:44
And this is assassination ai. Is this post leaving or during? During. During. During. Ai are they trying to kill you?
Speaker: 2
01:03:51
Well, Antifa tried to, tried to give me the scar across the back of my head was from a tire iron.
Speaker: 0
01:03:57
Where what happened there?
Speaker: 2
01:03:59
It was, they infiltrated the organization, and, we had went to a, and this is in my book, American Nazi, by the way. But, we had went to a, Rochester, Minnesota and to pass out leaflets, and it was myself and my roommate and then two other guys that had infiltrated. And, at the end of the night, to make a long story short, I’m reaching into the trunk of a car.
Speaker: 2
01:04:23
And as I’m reaching down into the trunk of the car to pick up this box of merchandise from the from the record label, the guy pulls out a tire iron and smashes me across the back of the head and says, we’re here to kill you. Woah. And, it felt like the like being scalped. The whole back of my head was, scalp was hanging down, and I just I wouldn’t get knocked out.
Speaker: 2
01:04:48
I would have been killed if I would have been knocked out. I just remember stumbling and putting my hand across the back of my head, and it felt like a wet sponge and just kind of staggering. And my roommate blocked another hit because the guy tried to hit me again because I didn’t go down.
Speaker: 2
01:05:01
And, by that time, I’m just kind of, you know, stunned, staggering, concussion, whatever you wanna call it, and, started stumbling into traffic in the middle of the street. And then, you know, he had gotten away from the guy and pulled me off to the other side of the street. And, yeah, that was that was one incident.
Speaker: 0
01:05:21
So there’s multiple times people try to kill you?
Speaker: 2
01:05:23
I’ve been shot at. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:05:25
And this is all I’ve had
Speaker: 2
01:05:26
a stabbing people ai to stab me too.
Speaker: 0
01:05:28
Yeah. This is also why you’re in the movement? Oh, yeah. And who was shooting at you? Gangs. Yeah. So people that had just found out that you guys were Nazis, and they just tried to shoot you?
Speaker: 2
01:05:39
Well, we were I mean, we were wearing the symbols everywhere. Like, I mean, flight jackets with swastika patches and stuff
Speaker: 0
01:05:47
like that. So, I mean, that was gonna be a
Speaker: 2
01:05:47
that was pretty volatile, especially in different neighborhoods.
Speaker: 0
01:05:52
When you talk to other people that have left the movement, do they have like, is there a pivotal moment in a lot of these people’s lives where they ai that this was the wrong path? Is it accumulation of other people’s experiences that they’re they take into consideration? Like, what what is the is there a main factor?
Speaker: 2
01:06:13
It it really is different for everybody, but usually, it doesn’t happen like a snap of a finger. You know, like, I could, you know, ai, we’re talking about hundreds of people have left the movement. I can think of just, like, on one hand, the people that have left over, like, one act of kindness or one one simple thing. Very few people do that.
Speaker: 2
01:06:30
It’s usually a process. So they’re going through this shift in thinking kinda like I was, and they’re they’re questioning it. They’re questioning, like, well, what it’s there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance. There’s a lot of confirmation bias that takes place, and they’re having experiences sometimes with people of other races that helps, you know, where it doesn’t fit the narrative of the movement, what’s being spewed.
Speaker: 2
01:06:52
So they’re they’re fighting with this in their head for a long time. For different people, it’s different things. It’s sometimes it’s just seeing the humanity and the people that you once dehumanized.
Speaker: 0
01:07:00
Ai, this is such a heavy path you’re on. Does it I I know it must feel very rewarding, but interacting with so many people that have been indoctrinated into hate, does it sometimes feel overwhelming?
Speaker: 1
01:07:23
No. It it doesn’t. I mean, I’ve had some disappointments, you know, people not everybody’s gonna change. Right. You know, on on either ai, black, white, you know Have
Speaker: 0
01:07:33
you had people that were close? They were close to shifting and they followed their
Speaker: 1
01:07:37
own words? It’s ai alcoholics who fall off the wagon, you know, that kind of thing. But I’ve had some who I never thought would change. I mean, there’ll be people who would on on all sides who would go to their graves being hateful, violent, racist, whatever, anti Semitic. But even some of those, I’ve had come back and change, but I know not not all would do it. Some are just die hard, you know.
Speaker: 1
01:07:59
They’re not gonna change for anything. And so I don’t give up on those people, but I move them down my list of priorities and deal with the ones who are open to talking. I mean, even though they’re just as hateful and violent and and racist or whatever, as, you know, if they will talk, there’s an opportunity to plant a seed.
Speaker: 1
01:08:17
The seed’s not gonna bloom ai. You know? So when it happens, great. You know? Then I move my way down to the ones who are who, you know, didn’t wanna talk to me or or we got into some kind of scuffle or whatever, things like that.
Speaker: 1
01:08:31
But as I was telling you before, when when their buddies change and they see that life improve
Speaker: 0
01:08:39
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:08:39
Sometimes it’s it’s a wake up call for them because, you know, the the initially, they think there’s nothing this black guy can do that’s gonna help them. Who the hell is he to think to even think, you know, I’m the superior one. He’s the inferior one. But when they compare their life to their to their buddy’s life and now he’s superior he’s he’s living superiorly and getting along ai, you know. I want that.
Speaker: 0
01:09:02
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:09:02
So now they come around.
Speaker: 2
01:09:04
And for some people, it’s it’s it’s sai a something staggering, you know. Like, I can think of I’m just thinking of a couple of the cases that I’ve worked on sana and, like, one guy, his son committed suicide, and he had brought his whole family into the movement. And he felt like it was the ideology that did that, and that’s what helped shift him. And this was a a lifelong guy. Like, this guy’s in his sixties.
Speaker: 2
01:09:23
You know, ai been in forever. I would have never like Daryl said, never you never think some people are gonna change, and he changed. And there’s another family that, I helped out this last year, and they’ve got 11 kids under the age of 18. And they arya for them, it was seeing how it was affecting their children.
Speaker: 0
01:09:39
A lot
Speaker: 2
01:09:39
of them some of them have, you know, disabilities and things like that, and they were seeing how, the quality of life, you know, being involved in this is is it’s heavy. It’s it’s it’s it’s it’s sai it’s a great burden. It’s not and it’s not something that you wish on your children.
Speaker: 2
01:09:55
It’s not something that you, want them to move forward with. So for them, it was seeing how their children were affected.
Speaker: 0
01:10:01
Well, having children also just changes your understanding of people. You start realizing, like, babies learn from their ai, and they’re all, you know, really innocent. They come out of the womb just innocent and you see them grow up and evolve and you ai, like, how much of what makes you a human being is just learned learned behavior.
Speaker: 0
01:10:21
Yep. Darrell, you’re still a a working musician. So how much Absolutely. How much of your time is dedicated to helping people leave these movements? It seems pretty significant.
Speaker: 1
01:10:35
Yeah. It’s really flipped around a lot. You know, when I first started this, it was, like, maybe 75% music, 25%, other, you know, this work. But now it’s probably the exact opposite now. I I just take the gigs that I wanna do. You know, if it’s something, you know, that I that I want I feel like playing, I’ll take it.
Speaker: 1
01:10:54
I’ve I’ve turned down more gigs in the last few years than I than I have accepted.
Speaker: 0
01:10:59
And does this feel right to you or do you sometimes wish that someone else would, like, carry the baton?
Speaker: 1
01:11:08
Well, you know, I wish people would carry the baton and improve upon what, you know, what I’ve done. I I’m just one person, but and there’s always room for improvement. Somebody can, you know, take my template and and make amends to it or whatever. I would hope, you know, people would be inspired to do that and there have been some.
Speaker: 0
01:11:28
But I mean, would you rather have more time for your music? Ai, that’s
Speaker: 1
01:11:32
Well, I’ll put it this way. Music is my profession Right. For sure. But improving race relations is my obsession. Mhmm. And I would much rather, much rather be on stage playing my piano with my band, seeing people smiling and dancing and clapping their hands then going to a Klan rally and watching people in robes and hoods march around at Burning Cross yelling ai power.
Speaker: 1
01:11:53
You laugh, but that’s what I do.
Speaker: 0
01:11:58
I know. It’s I mean, it’s it’s crazy that you do that and have any feeling of safety while you’re there.
Speaker: 1
01:12:07
Well, I mean, there are people who don’t want me there and they resent it and they get into it with their leaders and their leaders end up banishing them and stuff. But, you know, Jeff can tell you, you know, because he’s been doing a lot of clan things as well as well as his own organization.
Speaker: 1
01:12:21
It’s run kinda like a paramilitary. Ai? So you have two kinds of rallies. You have public rallies, and you have private rallies. So a public rally is, you know, you wanna have your clan rally or your Nazi rally over here in in in the park on Main Street.
Speaker: 1
01:12:35
So you gotta go to City Hall or wherever and and apply for a permit. Right? That’s public ram. It’s public park. So anybody can come. You can come.
Speaker: 1
01:12:42
I can come. Whatever. Now if there if there’s potential for violence or whatever, there’s gonna be a barricade of police in between the ralliers and the protesters sai they can’t meet each other. Right? Right. You can yell and scream over the police head. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:12:57
But if it’s in some rural place, like he’s talking about in rural Minnesota, you know, anybody everybody can go. There’s not a whole lot of police presence. It’s mostly white people. And, but if it’s a private rally, you yeah. It’s on private property. One of the members might have a farm.
Speaker: 1
01:13:15
And, okay, you know, we can have the rally on my farm. Well, you just can’t walk on somebody’s farm if you unless you’re invited. So you have to be invited by one of the higher ups. In his case, the commander. In the clan case, the imperial wizard or the grand dragon.
Speaker: 1
01:13:27
And so if it’s like a Simon says. If if the, leader invites somebody, then all the meh all the members have to respect that you don’t bother that person whether you like it or not, you know. Otherwise, you know, you’re gonna you you’ll suffer some consequences.
Speaker: 0
01:13:43
And why would those leaders invite you?
Speaker: 1
01:13:45
Curiosity. I treated them fairly. I applied those five core values. I’m writing a book. I need to know what goes on at a rally. Y’all say, you know, you don’t do anything, malicious or whatever. Well, show me. You know? Let me let me come see the rally. Like, if you’re gonna write a book on football, you can you you can go to the library and get tons of books and research it and write it and have never gone to a football game.
Speaker: 1
01:14:08
Right. Right? Okay. But if you really wanna, you know, write an accurate one and from personal experience, you need to go see a football game. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:14:16
So how am I gonna write a book on the Klan from a to z without ever seeing a Klan rally? Right. So So that’s why I sana to go and I explained that to them and it’s, you know, it’s okay. You know? So I’ve been to both private and, and public.
Speaker: 0
01:14:29
Who’s easier to convert? Klan people or Nazi people?
Speaker: 1
01:14:34
I would say probably Klan people. They are depending upon upon the individual groups because I don’t wanna say that a white supremacist of any group or even individual racist is stamped out of a standard cookie cutter. You know, they come from all different walks of life, all different educational backgrounds, reasons for joining, etcetera.
Speaker: 1
01:14:57
But the, the the, the the Nazi movements, not so much the skinheads. The skinheads are very disorganized, disjointed. They go off go off the rails. They don’t listen to anybody, you know, within their own command or whatever, where, the Klan does have some respect for their or a lot of respect for their higher ups, you know, the great titan, the grand dragon, the imperial wizard, etcetera.
Speaker: 1
01:15:20
But the the, Nazi movements, a lot of the larger ones ai like his, his former movement, is is very militarily run, and and there are quick consequences if you step out of line. Sai, you know, I don’t I don’t like Joe Rogan on my on my rally ground, but my ram dragon wants him here. I’m I’m I’m gonna be cool.
Speaker: 1
01:15:41
I’m I’m not gonna say a word to him. I’m just gonna stand over there because I know if I you know, if he gets in my face, I might say something and then I’m gonna get banished or whatever.
Speaker: 0
01:15:48
So it’s very much run like a military in a lot of ways.
Speaker: 2
01:15:51
Yes.
Speaker: 0
01:15:52
Did you guys train? Did you have, like, training exercises and different things that you did?
Speaker: 2
01:15:57
Yeah. Later on in in the group, there was, paramilitary training. There was a rank structure, so people, you know, like the military, and and, it was very, very controlled in that sense. So
Speaker: 0
01:16:07
When you say paramilitary training, what were you preparing for?
Speaker: 2
01:16:12
In in these movements, they believe that the United States government is gonna collapse, whether that’s through a race war or civil war or anything like that. And this goes far right, far left. Most extremist groups have this, or even, you know, the jihadi ai, religious extremism.
Speaker: 2
01:16:27
They have this idea that they’re gonna rise up and be the the leaders of the future tomorrow. So, so groups like this prepare. You know? So they do, like, you know, what you call, like, militia training, I guess.
Speaker: 1
01:16:39
Jeez. So now interestingly enough, right, you mentioned the word militia. Okay? So when you have a very subtle nuance here, when you have a bunch of white guys who go out in the woods and practice shooting and they’re in their camouflage and practice survival skills and all that kind of stuff, they’re called militias.
Speaker: 1
01:17:02
But when you have black guys, black groups that do the same thing, they’re not called militias. They’re called militants. But it’s the same thing. But the word militant has more of a of a negative connotation than, than the word militia.
Speaker: 0
01:17:18
Really? Yeah. Interesting. Who’s using these terms? Like, by by whose standard?
Speaker: 1
01:17:24
By the general puppet stand, especially, you know, white people. We we use those terms. They they tyler to to blacks as being militant.
Speaker: 0
01:17:30
Well, you very rarely hear about when you hear about militias, it it’s usually kooky white people. It’s usually ai white people in Idaho or, you know, some groups outside of Coeur D’Alene
Speaker: 1
01:17:42
and Right. The area of nations.
Speaker: 0
01:17:44
Yeah. The the people
Speaker: 1
01:17:45
in Washington state where his state they have a lot of militias in in Michigan. Timothy McVeigh, you know, was part of a of a, militia. You know? And there are other ones. And and and they have different names to to to cover up, ai, he used Jeff Stevens to to cover, you know, the the thing.
Speaker: 1
01:18:03
Like, there was a a Klan group out of Texas. It was the, what was it? Something, ambulance service. You know? So, you know, just sai, you know, a a store window name to cover up the real, organization. But speak to to the recruitment today.
Speaker: 1
01:18:21
I mean, the these groups have always, you know, since the beginning of time or or the beginning of their inception, have always recruited, law enforcement and military people into the ranks of the group. But now it’s even more concentrated where they really are going after a lot of law enforcement and military, especially those people, veterans, who’ve only been in the in the militaries, air force, army, marines, navy, whatever, for two years.
Speaker: 1
01:18:52
They feel that if somebody is in there for more than two years, they’ve become loyal to the government. So you really can’t it’s harder to pull them. And then at at the two year point, these people have training. They have training in weaponry and bomb making, explosives, and survival skills, all that kind of stuff, which is what these people want to prepare them.
Speaker: 1
01:19:16
So they you know, you know, you all served overseas and and fought for the country over there. Now why don’t you come fight for our country right here? You know? Because this is going on in our cities. You know? Look what’s happening in Washington, DC and Chicago.
Speaker: 1
01:19:29
The Jews and the blacks are taking over and da da da da. Come fight for us here, you know, domestically. Mhmm. And so they get lured in and then they learn these these, weapon skills because, you know and then they turn into lone wolves. That’s why we’re seeing so many lone wolves. But what’s what’s actually going on here, Joe, is this. I learned this back in 1982. Alright?
Speaker: 1
01:19:54
Let me let me go back a little further than 1982. 1974, I’m age 15 in the tenth grade, sophomore in high school. And we had a class called the POTC, which stood for problems of the twentieth century. Had a great teacher. It was a it was a class for seniors, twelfth graders, but I was taken as a tenth grader.
Speaker: 1
01:20:16
He’d bring in different controversial speakers, talk about different abortion, you know, all kinds of controversial things back then. And, one day, he brought in the head of the American Nazi Party. Alright? Now as Jeff pointed out, the the, Nazi party was founded by a fellow named George Lincoln Rockwell.
Speaker: 1
01:20:35
And ai the way, one of Rockwell’s daughters who long ago dis disowned her father, was a teacher at my school. But shah had no. A lot of people didn’t know that. But, anyway, George Lincoln Rockwell was murdered by one of his own Nazis, a guy named John Paltrow. He got into it it was founded about thirty five minutes from my house in Arlington, Virginia.
Speaker: 1
01:20:55
And, John Paltrow shot and killed Rockwell out there on the street on Wilson Boulevard. So Rockwell’s right hand guy was a guy named, Matt Cole, k o e h l. And on this day in 1974, Matt Cole and his right hand guy, they’re the heads of the American Nazi party now after Rockwell, came to my school, to my class, and they spoke to my class.
Speaker: 1
01:21:19
Now you can never do this do that today. You know? But I’m glad we were able to do that back in 1974. You know? I I I wish that kind of thing would happen today so people can see what’s you know, freedom
Speaker: 0
01:21:29
of speech
Speaker: 1
01:21:30
and all that. Matt Cole pointed at me and pointed at another black kid in my class and said, we’re gonna ship you back to Africa. And then he went like this. And all you Jews out there, you’re going back to Israel. Now I’m 15 years old. Ai just sat there, like, looking at the girl. Like, what what on earth, you know, is this man talking about? Ai I didn’t say anything to him.
Speaker: 1
01:21:49
But, one of my classmates sai a girl, piped him and said, well, they live here. You know, what if they don’t wanna go? And Matt Cole said, oh, they have no choice. If they do not leave voluntarily, they will be exterminated in the upcoming race war. That was the first time I ever heard the term race war. Now I was already fascinated by racism since I was 10 years old. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:22:10
But race sai, what is this man talking about? Right? And so I began buying books and all kinds of stuff, learning different terminology for it, which will come later. Like, for example, the white supremacists, they have two terms for the race war. One is Rahowa, r a h o w a, Rahowa, which are the first two letters of three words, vatsal holy war. Also, they all they call it the boogaloo.
Speaker: 1
01:22:34
So if you hear that term, then they’re talking about the nineteen sixties, you know, dance music. Just some just talking about the race war. And so the Matt Cole talked about the race war. Well, I graduated two years later in 1976 from high school. I graduated from college in 1980, four years after that. And ai I said, racism became my obsession.
Speaker: 1
01:22:58
I did not confront Matt Cole in school because, you know, my peer group back then, you know, we were raised, you have respect for your elders as figures of authority. Whether you accept them or not, you still respect them. And so, you know, I didn’t confront him like that. But now I’ve graduated from college. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:23:20
And I graduate ai at eight at age 22. In 1982, I’m age 24. I developed contacts with different people. I knew where some of these groups were, etcetera. I found out about a demonstration, an unpublicized demonstration by the American Nazi party that was gonna take place in front of the White House.
Speaker: 1
01:23:39
There is a park right across the street from the White House called Lafayette Park. Twenty four seven, three hundred sixty five days a year, there is somebody in that park protesting something. Nuclear weapons, the environment, abortion, you name it, they’re there all the ai. And they face the White House with their billboards and whatever.
Speaker: 1
01:23:56
So I found out the American Nazi party was gonna have a silent, unpublicized demonstration, which means nobody knows about it, not even the police. Right? So, I’m gonna go down there and see them. Now back then, you could drive up and down the 1600 Block of Pennsylvania Avenue, which is where the White House sits.
Speaker: 1
01:24:15
And I only live, like, you know, about thirty, forty minutes from there. You know, fifteen minutes from DC on a non rush hour day. So I I go down there early. They’re gonna be there at twelve noon. I park my arya catty corner to the White House. I wait. Here comes this van.
Speaker: 1
01:24:31
About 13 to 15 of these Nazis get out. Right? And who do I see? Matt Cole and Martin Kerr. The same two guys
Speaker: 0
01:24:40
from
Speaker: 1
01:24:41
eight years ago who came to my school. You never forget the face. I mean, I can look at my hand right now and see his face right there. You know, you never forget the face of somebody who tells you they’re gonna ship you somewhere
Speaker: 0
01:24:51
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:24:51
Whether you wanna go or not. And if you don’t Or
Speaker: 0
01:24:53
exterminate you.
Speaker: 1
01:24:54
Exterminate you if you don’t go voluntarily. Right? So, anyway, Matt Cole gets all his Nazis lined up. They’re not wearing anything that indicates they’re Nazis. They’re wearing just dark black suits, and they’re standing there like this facing the White House across the street ai this. People are it’s lunchtime in DC.
Speaker: 1
01:25:11
People are walking ai, not even knowing who they are. I know who they are. Right? I guess maybe the White House might have known who they were. Saloni, anyway, once he got them all lined up, I walked right over to Matt Cole. And I said, Matt Cole.
Speaker: 1
01:25:24
He, like, jumped, like, who is this black person calling my name? You know? And he says, do I know you? And I said, well, you spoke at my high school. What high school would that be? I said, Wootton High School in Rockville, Maryland. And he goes, yes. Yes. Yes.
Speaker: 1
01:25:40
I remember you. That was a long time ago. And I sai, yes. You? Yeah. He remembered me. Yeah. Wow. And he and he said, yes.
Speaker: 1
01:25:48
Ai was a long time ago. Ai I said, yes. That was eight years ago. He goes, yes. Yes. I remember. What can I do for you?
Speaker: 1
01:25:54
I said, well, I’m still here. He says, I can see that. How can I help you? I said, well, you can you can tell me just who the hell gives you the authority to make permanent travel arrangements for me. And he says, what’s your name?
Speaker: 1
01:26:06
I said, Daryl Davis. And then he did something I’ve never forgotten. He shook my hand, and he held my hand real tight, and he shook his fin with his other hand, shook his finger in my face. And he said, mister Davis, you have to understand one thing. It is in the interest of your race, the black race, to be a strong race.
Speaker: 1
01:26:24
And you cannot be a strong race unless you are a pure race. And you cannot be a pure race if you are miscegenating with other races. It is in the interest of my race, the Aryan race, which is what he calls white race. Right? To also be a pure race, and we cannot be to be a strong race.
Speaker: 1
01:26:39
And we cannot be a strong race if we are miscegenating with mongrel I mean, with our mud races such as yours. We are becoming a mongrel race. So anybody who’s non ai is a mud race, and he’s he’s fearing that his race is is, is dying out, becoming a mongrel race by mixing with other races.
Speaker: 1
01:26:58
So he says until the races understand that they cannot miscegenate, we cannot live side by side. We cannot live together.
Speaker: 2
01:27:05
And and what do you hear there? Fear? Yeah. It’s fear.
Speaker: 1
01:27:09
So he, you know, I talked to him about, you know, maybe twenty, thirty minutes. I wasn’t there to beat him up or cuss him out. I just want to understand where he’s coming from. Right? And so a few months later, they applied for a permit. They had their national, American Nazi party recruitment rally in Washington, DC. So people came from all over the country. Right? And now this time, it was publicized.
Speaker: 1
01:27:34
So you had, you know, you had about 50 of them show up, and there were tens of thousands of people that came to protest from New York, Richmond, Virginia, Baltimore, all over. So you have every police department was there too, and there was rioting, all kinds of craziness going on. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:27:52
You could not get to I went there with my secretary. You could not get to the, to to to the Nasdaq. I saw Matt Cole and them, and now, of course, they’re wearing their Gestapo uniforms with the SS insignias, flying swastika flags, and all that kind of thing. And, you but you couldn’t get to them because if the police have their shields and their batons and pushing people back. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:28:13
So then people they came with, bricks and all kinds of stuff and began throwing them over the heads of the police to land on the Nazis gathered in this opening in the park. And so the cops began tear gassing everybody, and then it came a full blown riot. People were turning over police cars, breaking out the windows, kicking out the headlights, setting buildings on fire in Washington, DC. You can you can find it on on YouTube.
Speaker: 1
01:28:36
And saloni, anyway, that, this is before Internet. Right? Nineteen eighties. Ai secretary and I go home. We watch the news.
Speaker: 1
01:28:45
And there’s Matt Cole sitting in the studio of one of the the network TV stations, NBC, CBS, ABC, whatever it was. And he’s talking to the anchor person, and they’re showing footage of the riot in DC that day. You sai you see? It’s the blacks and the Jews who are turning over the police cars and attack and trying to attack us. You don’t see the Nazis turning over the police cars.
Speaker: 1
01:29:07
It was then that I realized what he was doing because he he was a pretty smart guy, just smart in the wrong direction. I couldn’t figure out why would he have his national recruitment rally to to recruit people into the Nazi party in Washington, DC. Washington, DC is two thirds black.
Speaker: 1
01:29:26
There are no black people in DC who wanna join the American Nazi party. There are no Jews in Washington, DC or Jews anywhere who wanna join the the American Nazi party. So why DC? Because he knew that would happen.
Speaker: 0
01:29:41
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:29:41
And he has the official footage from CBS, ABC, NBC. He takes that footage, goes out there to Coeur D’Alene, Iowa Ai or Washington state, the Pacific Northwest, and says, you see what’s going on in our nation’s capital? Our country is being run by Zog. Zog is is a is a very common term in white supremacy, z o g. It stands for Zionist Occupied Government.
Speaker: 0
01:30:07
Oh, boy.
Speaker: 1
01:30:07
Yeah. And so he shows this, you know, rioting, you know, of all these people who he alleges are blacks and Jews destroying and and denying people their right of, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech. So then he it it’s a recruitment tool. So I learned that, and I I I realized what he was doing. And I’ve seen the Klan do the same thing.
Speaker: 1
01:30:26
They will go somewhere where they know there’s gonna be some kind of a riot. That’s why they sana to march in Skokie, Illinois, which was an all Jewish, you know, neighborhood because they knew it was gonna create a disturbance, and they used that. But, so I learned a lot from Matt Cole.
Speaker: 0
01:30:41
Bizarre that someone would be smart in the wrong way like that.
Speaker: 1
01:30:46
It’s bizarre. It’s bizarre, but you find it in any color, every color. You know, people you know, divide and conquer is how you gain power.
Speaker: 2
01:30:56
And the first thing and going back to the fear factor of that, like, we did the exact same thing. Every time there was violence, when we clashed with Antifa or something like that, we had people out there filming. Like, NSM had its own media arm. So they’re out there filming that, and we would put out those clips.
Speaker: 2
01:31:12
So immediately, especially if there was violence, if there was actual clashes and the police weren’t keeping people separated, those always turn into recruits. That’s how these groups would would utilize that stuff. So you have people that were being like, oh, man. I’m sorry. I missed it.
Speaker: 2
01:31:26
I didn’t know we’d be fighting with the reds. You know? Like, I’ll be at the next one. And then you’d have applications coming in from new recruits that would see it on the news. So with with these groups are always manipulating the media.
Speaker: 2
01:31:38
Some of the rallies that I organized were sai places like Valley Forge, Yorktown, Virginia, historic places that you could use those those elements and it would guarantee the press, or Downtown LA at the at the city hall ram marching on DC, places that would guarantee a lot of press.
Speaker: 2
01:31:54
And just like Daryl said, it wasn’t necessarily to recruit people in those areas. It was to whip up, chaos because that would benefit these groups.
Speaker: 0
01:32:05
Well, how do how do these groups use the media or rather, social media and the Internet to radicalize people?
Speaker: 2
01:32:14
Nowadays, it’s a it’s a it’s a double edged sword, the media, because these groups before, like, like Sai was discussing earlier, you had to, like, ai search them out or or a recruiter had to find you or something like that. It wasn’t easy to find. Now a fourth grader can click on a website and go find these groups. They’re they’re easy to find online.
Speaker: 2
01:32:33
And, so sometimes they’re very overt, but a lot of times there’s different censorship things that are in place, so they’ll change the cover of the book. So the propagandists that we had in the in the group were making stuff look less innocuous, not, you know, using swastikas or things like that.
Speaker: 2
01:32:49
So some groups are very, prolific at that, and they’ll use podcasts. They’ll use videos.
Speaker: 0
01:32:56
Do they have Nazi podcasts?
Speaker: 2
01:32:57
Oh, yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:32:59
I would say, like
Speaker: 1
01:33:00
Don’t get any ideas, man.
Speaker: 2
01:33:01
They they don’t get they don’t get as many as many listeners as Joe Rogan.
Speaker: 0
01:33:06
But I was I was just saying thinking, like, what what kind of how many people are listening to Nazi podcasts?
Speaker: 2
01:33:17
That really varies, you know, but Is
Speaker: 0
01:33:19
it it’s still a large movement in this country?
Speaker: 2
01:33:21
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:33:23
And how does it grow now? Does it grow based on, like, the things Daryl was talking about, like riots and stuff like that? Will they use that? Maybe Black Lives Matter riots from the February or or twenty twenties rather?
Speaker: 1
01:33:35
Well Those one of the things that’s causing it to grow also, which I was gonna lead leading up to when I talked with Matt Cole, what I learned in 1982, was that these people, meaning the the the movement, the ai supremacy movement Mhmm. Are fearing. He told me this in 1982. They are fearing the year 2042. Alright? It’s not a conspiracy. It’s for real. Alright? The US census is taken every decade.
Speaker: 1
01:34:02
I’m 67. When I was it doesn’t matter how old you are, how old he is, or whatever. When we all were children, the black population in this country was 12%. Native Americans, 1%. Right? Latino, Hispanic Americans, almost 2%. Asian Americans, Pacific Islander Americans, almost 3%.
Speaker: 1
01:34:28
Whites were, like, around 86, 87%. This is back in I was born in ’58. Alright? So every decade, this is happening. And this is what Matt Cole was telling me that they were fearing. He used the word fear. He said it has to be stopped.
Speaker: 1
01:34:44
He said, in the year 2042, if this trend continues, this country will be fifty fifty, meaning 50% white, 50% nonwhite. Alright? The last census taken in our country was 2020. Guess what? Whites went from, like, 80 some percent from the time I was a kid and you were a kid, now, 59%. That was in 2020.
Speaker: 1
01:35:08
It’s less than that right now in 2025. Sai in 2043, it’s gonna be this. It’s predicted between 2045 and 2050, it’s gonna flip. And for the first time in the history of The United States, whites will become the minority. And while there are plenty of white people who say, hey.
Speaker: 1
01:35:24
That doesn’t bother me. No big deal. It’s evolution. What’s what’s the big deal? Right?
Speaker: 1
01:35:28
There is a slice of our population, the ones that I deal with, who think it is a big deal, and they’re trying to stop it. And that’s why when I first start I’ve been doing that, like I said, for forty five years. When I first started doing this, there was just the KKK, white power skinheads, and some neo Nazi groups. That was basically it. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:35:47
Today, you got the KKK, the neo Nazis, the skinheads, the Patriot Front, the Vanguard, the, Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, the National Alliance, on sana on and on. Whole slew of groups. And they’re all saying, come join us. Come join us. We’re gonna take back our country. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:36:03
So people out of fear of their identity being erased as as, you know, they’re saying because they’re trying to keep the races pure. Because what they tell me is, Daryl, I don’t want my grandkids to be brown. They call it the browning of America sai white genocide through miscegenation.
Speaker: 1
01:36:19
So these people are out of fear of their identity being erased because they truly believe that they are patriots, and it’s their job to save this country. We built this country. We wrote the constitution. And now people are coming in into our country who don’t look like us and squeezing us out of our own country.
Speaker: 1
01:36:36
That’s the mentality. And as Jeff points out, they’re surrounded by an echo chamber that keeps repeating that sai then it becomes the truth to them. Right? Mhmm. So they run and join these groups to to take back the country.
Speaker: 1
01:36:48
But when the group does not act fast enough to take back the country, they get antsy and get frustrated. Sai you know what? If the Nazis can’t do it or the Klan can’t do it, I’ll do it myself. And they walk into a black church in South Ai, boom, boom, boom, boom, and murder nine black people doing ai study.
Speaker: 1
01:37:05
Or the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, kill off 11 Jewish people. The Buffalo grocery store in New York. The, Sikh Indian temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin murders seven Sikh Indians doing religious service. The, Walmart in El Paso, Texas, 23 Meh people were murdered by white supremacists a few years ago. These these these people are called lone wolves.
Speaker: 1
01:37:26
And every time one of them gets taken out by law enforcement or gets arrested and their property gets searched, law enforcement always finds a cache of automatic weapons that are being stockpiled for a Rahowa or the Bugaloo because they they’re looking to have this this re redo of the civil war to to preserve their lifestyle.
Speaker: 1
01:37:48
And so 2042 is gonna be a pivotal year. And we’re only, what, sixteen, seventeen years away from that right now.
Speaker: 0
01:37:57
Wow. So that’s why they walked down the street chanting, they will not replace us. That’s what that’s all about?
Speaker: 1
01:38:02
Yep.
Speaker: 0
01:38:03
Yeah. This is white replacement theory. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:38:06
Which which is bogus. Nobody’s trying to replace anybody.
Speaker: 0
01:38:09
Just you guys aren’t fucking enough. It’s so simple. You’re already in the majority. Just you you need to do your work.
Speaker: 1
01:38:24
It is, Just not my sister, right? Right.
Speaker: 0
01:38:26
It’s just such sai disturbing aspect of society that you would think there’s gonna come a point in time where there’s enough education, enough understanding, and especially with the access to information we have with the Internet, this would all go away. But it doesn’t seem like that’s helping because it seems like the more access to information, the more people settle into these echo chambers.
Speaker: 1
01:38:51
That and also a lot of the old guard realized, you know, this is happening. And if we wanna preserve our our culture, our whatever, we need to pass this on to young people. We need to get more young people involved.
Speaker: 0
01:39:07
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:39:08
And they began recruiting young people to to disseminate this information and and and and, you know, galvanize Yeah. You know, more of their peers into into this ai. And and back to, you know, the, the recruitment of of military and and and law enforcement because they know this is gonna happen, and they and they want they’re gonna want those people on board to to to be on that side.
Speaker: 1
01:39:33
And, you know, I mean, you you can probably talk about military and and law enforcement inside your organization. I can talk about it in the plan or, you know, whatever. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:39:41
As far as, like, the military was concerned, we were actively trying to recruit military. So early on in the organization, it was, like, 10% maybe of the members. By the time I left, it was about 50% there.
Speaker: 0
01:39:52
How did you do that?
Speaker: 2
01:39:54
Well, we we on their applications, you know, we were asking what branch they were in, what rank they achieved because we were looking at all that for, potential leadership. So anybody that had military experience, especially in the higher ranks, those people would be, naturally, looked at for leadership positions in the party because they had those
Speaker: 0
01:40:13
Right. But how do they try to recruit military people?
Speaker: 2
01:40:16
So using the same tactics as everybody else, but the, as far as the organization specifically, having that military structure ai we discussed earlier, having that structure gave them so somebody that was coming out of the military that was retired or something like that, it would provide that structure that they were missing. So a lot of times for people that are involved in this stuff, it’s a ai it’s fulfilling a psychological need. It’s being part of a mission.
Speaker: 2
01:40:41
It’s having that, something that’s driving them and driving their for driving a driving force that’s ai their ideology. So finding a place to fit in, having having a mission, a sense of purpose. I think it’s a lot of things. A lot of ai, you will miss that aspect of it, and I explain it not to excuse it because there is no excuse for it.
Speaker: 2
01:41:01
These are choices that people make. But if you understand the psychology of it, like, why someone’s involved in it, that’s helpful to help pull them out. And and, also, when someone’s coming out of these organizations to have the new mission, have something else. So for a lot of people that might be learning to play guitar or, doing an extreme sport or getting involved with the church or just it could be anything, but it has there has to be something.
Speaker: 2
01:41:26
Because if they’re missing that, that’s when they really struggle. That’s that’s one thing I’ve seen a lot of.
Speaker: 0
01:41:31
So what what is the protocol? Like, how do you handle like, say if someone is leaving and they contact you and say, I know you left. I I wanna leave too. What are what are the steps you take to make sure that they do find some sort of a new purpose?
Speaker: 2
01:41:45
A lot of ai, just kind of asking them questions, you know, asking a lot of questions and seeing what they’re interested in and and finding those things, trying to help them find that, sense of purpose and and that, because, that’s missing. So I’ve had a lot of people say, like, when they’ve left, they’re like, I don’t have that. I don’t have that.
Speaker: 2
01:42:03
So we a lot of ai, we’ll talk through that. Well, what interests you? What do you what are you interested in? And a lot of times, we try to keep them kinda steer clear politics. But for some people, it might be okay.
Speaker: 2
01:42:11
But, typically, that’s that’s kind of, probably, one they should stay away from for a little while.
Speaker: 0
01:42:16
So politics because there’s they they have this desire to help fix ai. So they think they’re gonna get involved. I’m not a Nazi anymore, so so I’ll get involved in fixing it in a more legitimate way.
Speaker: 1
01:42:28
Yep. And one of the problems, Joe, is this. When these people leave the movement, there is a moniker that’s tagged on them and a stigma that follows. Okay? You know, when when you see their name in the media, it’s never, you know, Jeff Scoop shah blah blah. It’s always former neo Sai Jeff Scoop.
Speaker: 1
01:42:51
Doesn’t say
Speaker: 0
01:42:51
former rock musician. No. Has some wacky ideas, but
Speaker: 2
01:42:56
let’s not talk about it.
Speaker: 1
01:43:00
Sai that stigma kind of follows, you know. And it’s hard for them to break. Right. You know, where whereby most people, you know, when they screw up or whatever, you know, is forgiven. Like, say, you know, you and I are friends. I call you and say, hey, Joe, man. You’re not gonna believe this last weekend. I got I got, thrown in jail for for for for d d DWI.
Speaker: 1
01:43:19
You know? You’d be like, well, man, you know, you need to quit drinking and driving. You know? Why didn’t you call me? I would’ve come speak you up.
Speaker: 1
01:43:24
You’d have to drive ai, whatever. And and you and I would still be friends. But but if I call you and say, hey, man. You know? I got arrested for for murder or for rape. You’d be like, why are you calling me? You know? Right. Right. Right. Distancing.
Speaker: 1
01:43:36
So even though these people might have been friends with somebody who later became a white supremacist or whatever, the stigma of it, even now that they’re out.
Speaker: 0
01:43:47
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:43:47
You know, they still are a little leery and wanna stay clear because you’re judged by the company you keep. So it’s always, you know, ex con, you know, blah blah blah. You know? Instead of just saying so and so is working here.
Speaker: 0
01:43:58
Yeah. But, I mean, there’s very few people that even wanna believe that someone’s capable
Speaker: 1
01:44:03
of Right. Exactly. The tyler, stripes, and leopard.
Speaker: 0
01:44:06
They would always think, like, this guy’s gotta be fucked up. He’s he was a Nazi.
Speaker: 2
01:44:10
Yeah. And and it’s it’s crazy because I had a reporter one time, and I won’t say who or anything like that. But he had said, you know, I visit a murderer in in prison, and and I’m okay with that. But I’m not so sure about, like, your journey. Like, I’m I mean, like, he basically, what he was saying in so many words was he was more comfortable with the murderer than somebody and this is a this is a a a reporter, you know, somebody a journalist.
Speaker: 2
01:44:35
And they were more uncomfortable speaking with a former neo Nazi.
Speaker: 0
01:44:39
That’s fascinating. Mhmm. Yeah. Were they Jewish? No. No. No. Definitely liberal.
Speaker: 2
01:44:48
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Ai sure.
Speaker: 0
01:44:50
I think the the stigma of it is just so unforgivable, you know, which is part of the problem.
Speaker: 1
01:44:57
Sai But then why why if if you’re not gonna forgive that person Mhmm. Or that ai, right, then why do you wanna sana it? Why do you wanna combat it? Why not just accept it? Because it’s not gonna change or at least you’re not gonna change your attitude
Speaker: 0
01:45:09
towards it. You have to help in if if you want these people to leave and reintegrate into society, you have to have forgiveness.
Speaker: 1
01:45:17
Exactly. I mean, you know, prison is a is a penal, institution, not a reform institution, which is why this country has the highest recidivism rate of any country in the world. Right? People, you know, run there and they don’t get reformed and they they learn from better people than they were at their crime and they go back out and they do it again.
Speaker: 1
01:45:38
And people don’t accept them
Speaker: 0
01:45:40
because
Speaker: 1
01:45:40
they have that stigma that follows them. Well, I I can’t hire an ex con, you know, blah blah blah, whatever.
Speaker: 0
01:45:45
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:45:45
Where do they go?
Speaker: 0
01:45:46
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:45:47
That’s what we said.
Speaker: 2
01:45:48
An interesting, side note on that. You know, we talk about, like, some of the the hate that I had, and I was a raging anti Ai more than a racist by vatsal by all points. And the irony today working with the Simon Wiesenthal Center. I mean, there’s just so much irony there, and, like, the Jewish community was the community that I dehumanized and villainized the most.
Speaker: 2
01:46:09
And, Joe, they have been the most accepting and welcoming, as far as since the change has happened. And that just blew my mind because I I the first time I went to speak at a synagogue, I thought, man, these people are gonna wanna stone me to death. You know? Like, I what should I say? How am I gonna, you know, how what is this gonna be like?
Speaker: 2
01:46:30
I’d never been in a synagogue before, and this sai this took place in Skokie, Illinois. And, I tell you, after after speaking there, I got more hugs and more love and compassion than I’d probably any other place I could ever remember being.
Speaker: 0
01:46:43
That’s really interesting. So did they try to understand, like, why you at one point in time hated Jews? Did they did they ask you questions? Like, what what did you think?
Speaker: 2
01:46:56
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, they have something called teshuva, which means, like, forgiveness or or repentance. And, and means to he to heal the world. So these were things that were counterintuitive and and contrary to everything that I thought I knew about the
Speaker: 1
01:47:11
church. Speak Hebrew. You understand? Right.
Speaker: 2
01:47:15
Yeah. So, but it was it was really bizarre. So it’s ai when I speak with kids at schools, schools, you know, I said, you know, you guys remember in elementary school and you had opposite day and your shirt’s backwards and all that ai of stuff. Sai said, that was my life. Like, everything that I thought that I knew about the Jews and the movement, I was an expert on the Jews, the Jewish question, you know.
Speaker: 2
01:47:35
And here Did
Speaker: 0
01:47:35
you have any experience with Jewish people? No. None. No. So this was all just based on Nazi ai. Yep. So you’d know no negative or positive interactions with Jewish people?
Speaker: 2
01:47:49
No. Very towards the end of my time when I was involved, you know, I had a few interactions with, Jewish people, but, that I knew of. But before that, no. Absolutely not. Just wouldn’t discuss anything with them, wouldn’t talk to them, and and just felt like they were inherently evil.
Speaker: 2
01:48:05
Swallowed the whole anti Semitic, pill, I guess you could say. I mean, I believed all of it. And, they they were the people that I dehumanized the most, and yet today, they are the people that have been the most open.
Speaker: 1
01:48:21
And, you know, for the longest time, you know, Jews have been blamed for everything. Things, you know, they had nothing to do with. They say, you know, that the Jews run the media. They own the media. They, you know, they they they they run the banking systems and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: 1
01:48:37
And so people begin believing in that and that and they become, you know, persona non grata. And even though it may they may not may not even know any Jewish people. And that’s why I say, you know, when when I feel I can trust, you know, some individual who trusts me or whatever around my friends, I will I will invite them over or whatever, and I bring in some Jewish friends of mine and other black friends or white friends so that they can see something outside the echo chamber.
Speaker: 1
01:49:05
Another former neo Sai who’s a very good friend of mine, was telling me that when he was in
Speaker: 0
01:49:11
Funny sentence. Now they’re I’m a moron. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:49:14
Former neo Nazi who’s a very good friend of mine. A Freudian slip. I don’t
Speaker: 0
01:49:19
know. It’s just it’s accurate.
Speaker: 1
01:49:21
Exactly. Yeah. So, anyway, he was telling me when he was in the movement, he he’s he’s from Wisconsin. And, you know, their their football team is the Green Bay Packers and they’re just, you know, crazy about their football team. And so he would tell me, you know, that they’re not allowed to watch football games because it’s interracial.
Speaker: 1
01:49:40
You know, you got black and and white members on the teams playing together, so that’s forbidden. And so he’d have to sneak around and watch turn the volume down and and watch the game because he loved the Packers. Right? And when the Packers would would score a goal, he’d do it like this. Ai.
Speaker: 1
01:49:57
And so then he tells me that, you know, when he got out and, and other people were, you know, were were getting out, turns out they were doing the same thing. You know, so crazy. But he has a great story. Tell me about about the guys from Cameroon.
Speaker: 2
01:50:14
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I had met some, embassy people from the country of Cameroon in Africa, and, they had come out to one of my talks. And and afterwards, you know, they said, you know, it was really fascinating, and and America is really far behind on race relations. You know, when we first got here, we didn’t realize we were black. And I was like, what arya you guys talking about? I said, we gotta talk.
Speaker: 2
01:50:39
I gotta understand this. What do you mean you didn’t realize you arya black? And he’s like, of course, we realize we’re black. But you see in The United States, you know, or where we’re from in Cameroon, we’re Cameroonian. You know, that’s who we are.
Speaker: 2
01:50:51
Like, you know, we know we’re black, but he goes, you know, in The United States, it’s different.
Speaker: 1
01:50:56
You’re black Meh, white American, you know?
Speaker: 2
01:50:58
Yeah. He says we’re treated differently in The United States, even by other black people. You know? We were treated differently. So he says, now we know we’re black. Wow. Ai took a minute to wrap my mind around that one.
Speaker: 0
01:51:11
Well, it makes sense. They think of themselves as Cameroonian. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:51:14
As as they should. Yeah. As
Speaker: 2
01:51:15
they should.
Speaker: 0
01:51:16
Yeah. Yep. Wow. Yeah. That’s what’s crazy when you experience racism from other black people. You’re like, woah. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:51:23
Well, now hold on now.
Speaker: 0
01:51:24
Or discrimination, I should say.
Speaker: 1
01:51:26
Well, when you when you experience it from anybody. Right. But, understand something. Okay. So, you know, we we have a unique thing here, called slavery. And and Jewish people have a unique thing called the holocaust. So if you’re a white guy and you’re walking down down the street, sidewalk, and some other white guy is coming up the sidewalk, you don’t know him, just a stranger.
Speaker: 1
01:51:51
You know? You guys are gonna pass and not say a thing to to to either one of them. You know? Just just go on by. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:51:59
If it’s a black guy, two black guys passing, they don’t they’re gonna go, yo, man. What’s up? They’re gonna acknowledge one another because they have a shared experience. They both are descendants of slaves. They both have experienced racism at some point in their life or whatever.
Speaker: 1
01:52:14
If if two Jews pass who don’t know each other, they’re gonna go shalom. Mhmm. Because of that commonality, that experience. K. So unless you’ve had that experience, you don’t, you don’t react to it. Alright? So when, I lived in Africa, on the Continent Of Africa for ten years.
Speaker: 1
01:52:32
I lived in Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, and Senegal and visited many other countries in between because of my dad’s job. Right? So I can tell you, you know, all black people don’t look alike. All black people don’t know each other. Alright?
Speaker: 1
01:52:46
And That’s
Speaker: 0
01:52:48
a funny thing to say too.
Speaker: 1
01:52:49
But you but you yeah. But you know what? A lot of white people think that. They they do. A lot? Yeah. Especially older older ones. Yeah. Okay. Now at one ai, in in a city, all black people probably did know each other. Okay? Because they had to go to the same school, and there’s only one black school in the town. Right? They couldn’t go to different white schools. Okay.
Speaker: 1
01:53:11
Sai, yeah, you know, you you could they can only shop in a certain store. They couldn’t shop in every store or restaurant.
Speaker: 0
01:53:15
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:53:15
So, yeah, they would run into each other more often. But today, you know, no. But the stigma is still there. Okay? The sentiment, especially with older people.
Speaker: 0
01:53:23
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:53:23
Saloni, anyway, if I’m walking down the street and I’ve had this happen, and some black guy from Africa is coming up the street, I go, hey, man. What’s up? You know, I don’t know the guy. He looks at me ai kinda strange, like, wait. I don’t know you. Why are you talking to me?
Speaker: 1
01:53:38
Because he doesn’t have that experience.
Speaker: 0
01:53:40
Right. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:53:41
So we’re not we’re, you know, we’re not we’re not monolithic.
Speaker: 0
01:53:44
Right. Yeah. Well, that that this is the only way these movements like the neo nazis work is if you don’t know a lot of people from all over the world and realize that we’re all just people. Yep. This is, you know, it’s and it is very fear based. Right? Yeah. Because I meh, think about it. You’re you’re clinging to the lowest common denominator.
Speaker: 0
01:54:07
You all have a certain amount of melanin in your skin and you’re all from a certain part of the world. That’s it.
Speaker: 2
01:54:13
And it’s really not a very good commonality.
Speaker: 0
01:54:16
A terrible.
Speaker: 2
01:54:16
Bound is terrible. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:54:17
Especially when you think about the differences in personalities and tastes and just how people behave and Mhmm. It’s not a good indicator at all. It’s the dumbest. It really it really is.
Speaker: 1
01:54:27
But now there’s no bearing
Speaker: 0
01:54:29
on your character, no bearing on your intellect, no bearing on any of the things that we find fascinating and attractive about people. It’s just the color of your skin, which is the dumbest fucking thing on Earth.
Speaker: 2
01:54:39
Absolutely.
Speaker: 1
01:54:40
And, you know, and and we all may engage in it somewhat. Like, for example, if, I like Chinese food. And if I go to a Chinese restaurant, I don’t wanna see a bunch of white college kids or black college kids for that matter in the kitchen cooking it for me.
Speaker: 0
01:55:01
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:55:01
You know, I want the authentic real deal.
Speaker: 0
01:55:03
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:55:04
You know, so am I being prejudiced?
Speaker: 0
01:55:06
No. That’s not prejudiced. That’s you wanna experience
Speaker: 1
01:55:09
The culture. The culture.
Speaker: 0
01:55:10
Yeah. Ai, if I go to an Italian restaurant, I’m assuming there’s gonna be a bunch of old school Italian people back there cooking, you know. I want I want I want heavy accents, you know. I want the smell of garlic in the air, you know what I’m saying?
Speaker: 1
01:55:26
Do you know where Italians came from? Originally?
Speaker: 0
01:55:28
Yeah. I mean, I’m assuming Italy?
Speaker: 1
01:55:31
Well, that’s where they live.
Speaker: 0
01:55:34
I mean, what are you trying to say? Well, Ai I’m gonna tell you. Okay.
Speaker: 1
01:55:37
Okay. So Italians came from Africa. They came from the Moors. Oh, yes.
Speaker: 0
01:55:41
Okay. Well, Sicily in particular. That’s actually where my family’s from.
Speaker: 1
01:55:45
Okay. Well, there you go. Okay. And they’re darker in Sicily Right. Than in Rome and Venice and wherever else. Right. Right. The further you move from the Equator, the the darker the skin.
Speaker: 0
01:55:54
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:55:55
Okay. Yeah. The Moors came, you know, in into there. Meh we all evolved from Africa at some point in time way back when.
Speaker: 0
01:56:01
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:56:02
But, you know, a lot of people don’t realize that, you know, and they really need to check their DNA and check their history rather than just take it from where they arya, where they were born. Mhmm. You know, that’s why I think it’s so important to not ban books and ban and rewrite history. Oh, of course.
Speaker: 0
01:56:18
Yeah. Of course. You know, there is some, indication that human beings, might have come out of Asia as well. In fact, one of the oldest known, human skeletons they found which predates Lucy? No. It’s another one. That Lucy Well,
Speaker: 1
01:56:34
Lucy is out of Ethiopia.
Speaker: 0
01:56:35
Right. But Lucy wasn’t a Homo sapien. They found something that is a Homo sapien that’s 500,000 years older than when they thought Homo sapiens existed. This is very recent. Mhmm. Wow. And so it was likely that this was taking place in multiple areas of the world. Just like there’s different animals in multiple places of the world.
Speaker: 0
01:56:57
There’s different primates in multiple places of the world. And there’s a bunch of different kinds of human being, of course. Right? There’s Denisovans, which have just recently discovered, and then there was the the Hobbit people on the island of Flores. Like, there’s a lot of when it comes to the the evolutionary history of human beings, it’s very, very odd.
Speaker: 0
01:57:14
But when you talk about, like, the cultural history of human beings, that’s when things get really crazy because it was just a lot of people, like, traveling all over the place and just settling into the ai. And the reason why white people are white is just because there is no sun.
Speaker: 0
01:57:31
It’s that simple and they had to develop essentially ai a ai solar panel to suck up vitamin d because they weren’t getting any vitamin d from the sun. It’s really that simple, and that’s when it gets real weird.
Speaker: 1
01:57:45
Which has nothing to do with their intelligence or lack thereof.
Speaker: 0
01:57:48
Zero. Zero. You know, it it’s all ai. And over the course of hundreds of thousands of years, people change their appearance. And, you know, when you tell people that, they’re like, ai, what? Ai. We we all came from the same source. We’re all that’s why we could all have babies, you know.
Speaker: 0
01:58:06
Ai, other animals that are very different, ai, there’s certain fish shah can have babies with other fish, but those those fish become infertile, you know, and then like the the same with like donkeys. They’re like donkeys, they don’t they can’t have babies, you know, like it’s a where our mules rather can’t have babies because it’s a cross between a donkey and a horse.
Speaker: 0
01:58:28
And you can do it but then it can’t make babies or a liger can’t make babies. Right. Right? But people can make babies with people obviously because we’re the same fucking thing.
Speaker: 1
01:58:38
Ai. Any any any, culture of people.
Speaker: 0
01:58:42
Yes. Yes. Any culture of people can have babies with other cultures of people because we all come from the same source.
Speaker: 2
01:58:48
Kinda wipes out the whole racism argument.
Speaker: 0
01:58:50
It’s the stupidest fucking thing ever because it’s adaptive to environment.
Speaker: 1
01:58:54
Your Sana, my DNA, his DNA are 99.9% the same. Yep. Yep. Yep. And that should be taught in elementary school.
Speaker: 0
01:59:01
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:59:01
Don’t wait to to teach it in college when people’s minds are already solidified.
Speaker: 0
01:59:05
Yes. Yes. Yes. I think that thing too, that exposure that you had that Nazi coming to visit you, even though it’s negative exposure, it’s probably good to see, you know. Ai, when I was a kid, I was in high school, when I was 14, Barney Frank who Oh, yeah. I remember him. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:59:21
He I wasn’t openly gay then, but he was like one of the first openly gay members of Congress.
Speaker: 1
01:59:25
He lived near meh.
Speaker: 0
01:59:26
He lived near me as well. Ai lived in Massachusetts at the time and he was from Massachusetts or was representative of Massachusetts.
Speaker: 1
01:59:33
But when he when he lived in DC as a congressman.
Speaker: 0
01:59:35
Oh, okay. So this was before that, I guess then. So he was, debating a member of what at the time was the I believe was the Moral Majority. Mhmm. And it was this really goofy guy who came out and he had ai a American flag on his lapel. I remember I was 14. And, you know, when you’re 14 and you see someone who’s got this very ai, he was very anti gay marriage, very anti a lot of things.
Speaker: 0
02:00:01
But he was a clumsy, wasn’t very eloquent, not a very compelling speaker. And then Barney Frank went up, you know, so they both spoke speak, this guy spoke, and then Barney Frank and Barney Frank was so much smoother, so much more articulate. It was ai and for every all the kids that I was in school with who left, they’re like, that guy made more sense.
Speaker: 0
02:00:24
Like, this is a good thing to sai. It’s good that they see someone with a very narrow minded, bigoted perspective, and then someone who is more intelligent, more has a much better vocabulary, smoother in their ability to disseminate information and to dissect the bad arguments of the other person.
Speaker: 0
02:00:44
So we all walked out of there. We’re like, oh, okay. And then, you know, I remember talking about with my friends like, yeah, that guy’s a fucking moron, but first guy. You know
Speaker: 1
02:00:53
what I mean?
Speaker: 0
02:00:54
And but nowadays, instead of that, you would only get one. You would only get the one person talking. But the one person talking without the other person talking is not as good. And this idea of protecting kids from bad ideas because they don’t want these kids to be indoctrinated by bad ideas, it doesn’t work with human beings.
Speaker: 0
02:01:14
The way to get rid of bad ideas is to confront them with better ideas.
Speaker: 1
02:01:19
Exactly.
Speaker: 0
02:01:19
And the fear of having these ai of debates in schools is really dangerous. It’s dangerous to for discourse. It’s dangerous for the development of the ability to have arguments and ideas and to be able to debate. You you have to see it done. You have to see bad thinking, good thinking. Oh, I get it. I get it. This ai he’s more he’s more clever. He’s thinking better. He’s got more information.
Speaker: 0
02:01:45
This makes sense. And if you don’t allow people to make those distinctions on their own, if you just baby them and treat them like you can’t expose them to these negative ideas, you you miss out on the possibility of accepting nuance and an understanding of how, a less sophisticated, less educated person can fall into these traps of these stupid ideologies.
Speaker: 1
02:02:10
You just nailed it right on, you know, right on the head, sana. Allowing them to see the difference.
Speaker: 0
02:02:17
Yes.
Speaker: 1
02:02:18
Okay? Because, you know, people how did you change those people, Daryl? No. I didn’t change them. They changed themselves because we all know one’s perception is one’s reality. Right. Whatever somebody perceives becomes their reality. Even if it’s not real, it’s their reality. Right. You cannot change their reality. And if you try, you’re gonna get resistance.
Speaker: 0
02:02:41
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:02:42
Because they they only know what they know. Right? If you keep trying, it’s gonna escalate. You’re gonna get loud and keep on trying. It’s gonna explode. You you call it it’s gonna be rolling around on the ground hitting each other or whatever. Right? Because all fights start with yelling and screaming.
Speaker: 0
02:02:55
Right. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:02:55
So rather it’s rather than try to attack somebody’s reality and try to set their reality straight, don’t do that. You’ll fail. What you do is you offer them a better perception or perceptions.
Speaker: 2
02:03:10
Yes.
Speaker: 1
02:03:10
And if they resonate with one of your perceptions, ai showing them, this guy speaks very eloquently, that guy speaks like a like sai like a moron. Right. Just let them see it. Yeah. K. That perception then resonates with them and they change their own reality. Yeah. So don’t focus on how you’re gonna change somebody’s reality.
Speaker: 1
02:03:27
Focus on what kind of perceptions can I offer that person that might resonate?
Speaker: 0
02:03:32
Right. Right. And just by example, but who by who you arya. Because when people see someone speak and it resonates with them and see someone speak and they you can sense how they think of things. You can see the thought process and you go, well, who do I admire more? I admire this guy. He’s like, he’s he’s thinking ai this is an enlightened person.
Speaker: 0
02:03:54
This is a person who’s thinking in a way that I sana be able to think like that especially as a young kid. You know, you don’t sana be a moron. When you see someone you think is a moron, you’re like, okay. I’m glad I saw that guy.
Speaker: 1
02:04:05
That’s good.
Speaker: 0
02:04:06
Because that guy looks like a fucking idiot. Now this ai, oh, that guy makes more sense, you know?
Speaker: 1
02:04:10
Well, you know, when when Jeff and I were in that, Christmas Grill, and he thought he was getting along too well with the enemy being meh. And he started beating his fist on the table, and and that’s shown in the documentary. He was trying to get a rise out of me because I wasn’t behaving the way he was expecting me to behave. Right.
Speaker: 1
02:04:30
And and so when he went into Nazi mode, I remained the same way. Right. And that freaked him out.
Speaker: 2
02:04:37
Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yes. How
Speaker: 0
02:04:40
did what did it feel like to you?
Speaker: 2
02:04:41
It well, normally, when you escalate and we call this relational ai, and we do talks about this as well. But,
Speaker: 0
02:04:47
Oh, so it’s a strategy?
Speaker: 2
02:04:48
It’s a strategy.
Speaker: 0
02:04:50
Yeah. Wow.
Speaker: 2
02:04:51
So when when I tried to escalate, normally, almost 99.9% of the time when you escalate, the other person escalates. Daryl didn’t escalate. So I’m doing that, and he just goes, and then just continues the conversation ai like Sai never even raised my voice. So I’m like You
Speaker: 0
02:05:08
know, if
Speaker: 1
02:05:08
you start yelling at ai,
Speaker: 0
02:05:09
they start yelling back. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.
Speaker: 2
02:05:12
So I’m blown away by this. I’m like, why is this guy not reacting? What’s going on here? And so now I’m really dialed in because I’m trying to figure him out. And that’s when it and it was soon after that that you explained the story about,
Speaker: 1
02:05:25
how cubs.
Speaker: 2
02:05:26
The cubs scouts and how racism affected him growing up. And then all of a sudden, I’m thinking about what if somebody would have done that to one of my ai.
Speaker: 1
02:05:35
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:05:35
And in I saw Daryl’s humanity in that moment, so that’s how he cracked that window open.
Speaker: 1
02:05:41
Jeff just made a very point that I see a lot of times. Okay? Because when things escalate, k, when you come in to meet your adversary, you know you know this person has a different viewpoint than you do, and you’re not gonna let them try to change your viewpoint. You’re gonna be steeled in into what you believe. Right? So your ears are gonna be blocking out anything that does not agree with your, philosophy.
Speaker: 0
02:06:05
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:06:06
Right? So in order to and if you start escalating stuff, that that that that blackout becomes even greater.
Speaker: 0
02:06:14
Uh-huh. Ai?
Speaker: 1
02:06:15
So you want that person’s wall to come down. And by not reacting, that person becomes curious. He’s like, well, where’s this guy coming? What’s up with him? You know, he he’s not reacting the way most black people would react when I say whatever. So as the wall comes down, the curiosity on his end rises.
Speaker: 1
02:06:37
And so now his ears are unblocked, and he’s ready to hear what I have to say. But I you know, if if I’m escalating and telling him my story while I’m escalating about getting thrown rocks, he would probably say, oh, well, it wasn’t me that did it, you know, so what’s the deal?
Speaker: 0
02:06:53
Well, that’s almost all conversations you have with people when you disagree. If you elevate your your language and start yelling and they start yelling Right. Nobody figures out anything. Right.
Speaker: 2
02:07:05
No can there’s nobody’s ever won an argument.
Speaker: 0
02:07:07
It’s just a lot of fuck you. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:07:09
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:07:09
A lot of fucking going on.
Speaker: 0
02:07:12
Sai ai you, you you don’t get taught that in school. That’s unfortunate as well. You don’t get taught, like, how to control your emotions And and too many people, like, when people say to someone, hey, shut the fuck up. Like, you you think that person’s gonna listen? Like, most of the time, no.
Speaker: 0
02:07:32
Like, if you’re arguing about something and you do it, like, it’s almost always a bad idea. You know, it just becomes a thing that people sai, you know, like someone says fuck you to somebody and then they’re it’s it’s not like the person goes fuck me. Oh, jeez, fuck me. No. They go fuck you back. Yeah. Fuck you. And then then nothing gets done, you know.
Speaker: 0
02:07:50
And this this is a a a when you’re having especially, it’s something so heavily charged ai a a racial discussion, like, it’s as a human being, it’s so important to think of how the other person is viewing your words. Like, how what what what are they accepting? What do they see in you?
Speaker: 0
02:08:12
And if you turn yourself into an enemy and turn them into an enemy, nothing gets done.
Speaker: 1
02:08:17
Right. Sai, you know, the cliche misery loves company. Yeah. Negativity does promote negativity. Right? Yes. Positivity promotes positivity. Uh-huh. So quick example. You know, you’re you’re driving down the highway. You know, speed limit’s 55 miles an hour. You’re doing 75 miles an hour. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:08:33
And you’re getting ready to go over this hill and the oncoming traffic. You know? Some guy comes over the hill before you crest it, and the person is flashing the lights. You don’t know you don’t know who’s in that car, but they’re flashing the lights. Uh-huh. So that means, usually, there’s a cop on the other side with working radar.
Speaker: 1
02:08:50
Right.
Speaker: 0
02:08:50
Or it
Speaker: 1
02:08:50
could be construction or an bryden. Something you need to slow down, something like that. Right? So you you hit your brakes before you go over the hill. And as soon as you crest the hill, oh, there’s a cop with the radar gun. Meh. You know, you you gonna have a $150 ticket. Right? Ruin your day.
Speaker: 1
02:09:07
Right. And that stranger, total stranger who you you don’t know what color he was, what religion he is, who we we voted for, who his daddy was, whatever. That person saved you from getting that ticket. Right? So as you slowly cruise by the cop, he doesn’t pull you over or whatever, you know, you’re gonna start flashing your lights at the oncoming traffic
Speaker: 0
02:09:28
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:09:28
To to save them. Right. But let’s say, you know, you’re coming up the hill and people are coming over the hill and nobody’s flashing lights and you go over that hill ai there he is pulling you over, you know, license registration, remain in your car, be with you in a moment, comes back, gives you that $150 ticket, and tells you have a nice day.
Speaker: 1
02:09:49
You’re, you know, you’re ruined. You lost a $150. Your your your your insurance goes up because you got points on your license now. You know, all kinds of crap. Your your day is ruined. So now as you continue down the street, you don’t flash your lights either. That’s their problem. Sai, you know, misery loves company.
Speaker: 1
02:10:07
Negativity promotes negativity. Yep. A random act of kindness from a stranger. Alright? Well, you know, the the the guy could have been having a bad day
Speaker: 2
02:10:17
and
Speaker: 1
02:10:17
you flashed your lights and you saved him a $150. Now he’s having a better day. He’s gonna flash his lights.
Speaker: 0
02:10:24
That’s a good analogy.
Speaker: 1
02:10:26
Yeah. And and more humans need to not worry about somebody’s skin tyler, who’s in the car, who they voted for. Just do acts of kindness. Don’t stop dehumanizing people. You know, the guy in the car is just as human as you arya, and you don’t even know who you voted for, but he flashes ai at you and saved you some money.
Speaker: 0
02:10:44
Yeah. Do are you hopeful with all the work that you’ve done and all the people that you’ve removed from the Nazi party and the Ku Klux Klan, and and and seeing how your message resonates with people, and, like, I know every time I have you on, Sai Ai get all these messages people go, wow.
Speaker: 0
02:11:02
That ai amazing. Like, what an incredible journey. And it’s ai, I know it resonates with a lot of people, but there’s still so much fucking hatred in the world. Do you feel hopeful? Do you think think things are moving in a generally good direction?
Speaker: 1
02:11:16
I do, Joe. I do. And I’ll tell you what. I I think right now we are in the best time. I mean, it may seem like things are very divisive right now, and they arya. Okay? Politically, racially, whatever else. A lot of, you know, wars going on, religious wars and racism, antisemitism arise in that and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker: 1
02:11:38
But, yes, we are in the best time right now because people, they don’t wanna be in this time. You ai? I I don’t know if I can have kids and raise them in this ai. You know, that kind of thing. No. Listen.
Speaker: 1
02:11:51
We are in the best time because people are of the ai, well, racism is over. You know? You know, we had a black president. There is no more racism. No. There’s still plenty of racism. Alright? Before, you could turn a blind eye to it. If I don’t see it, I don’t hear it, then it doesn’t exist.
Speaker: 1
02:12:08
But now every time you turn your head, it’s there. It’s there. It’s there. So you can’t escape it. Now is the best time to address it, right, when it’s in your face. You go on vacation. You know? You you’re gonna drive your car to three states away.
Speaker: 1
02:12:25
And you get 10 miles down the road and your ai making some weird noise. Well, you don’t wanna get out of state and have your car break down, so you turn around and go back to your mechanic. Say, hey, man. You know, hop in ai around the block with me. Figure out this noise. He gets in, rides around with you. The noise stopped.
Speaker: 1
02:12:40
He tells you, well, Ai don’t hear it. I I can’t fix what I don’t hear. Right? But if he hears it, oh, yeah. You know, that’s that’s one of your spark plugs loose or something or whatever. Today, we cannot turn a blind eye. It’s everywhere. Right.
Speaker: 1
02:12:54
So now is the best time to fix it, address it.
Speaker: 0
02:12:57
Mhmm. Ai because of social media.
Speaker: 1
02:12:59
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I tell people, you know, people say, well, you know, Jeff or Daryl or whoever, you know, you guys are on the front line. You know? I I mean, I I I wanna help, but I don’t know that I could sit down and talk to somebody who hates me. You know? I’d I’d probably go off on them, or I’d be afraid or, you know, whatever the key. They don’t wanna be on the front line. Right. That’s fine.
Speaker: 1
02:13:21
Don’t be on the front line. You can be on the back line. You can be on the sideline. You can be online. Alright?
Speaker: 1
02:13:29
Pick a line that you feel comfortable on and get on it, and no one line is any more important than any other line. And what I mean by that is this. You can probably tell me your favorite movie. You can probably tell me how many Oscars it won. You can tell me who the lead actress and lead actor were. Alright? But those are people on the front line, the lead actress and actor.
Speaker: 1
02:13:49
You know who they are. Right? But do you know who who was the guy or guys operating the camera? Probably not. You don’t know their names.
Speaker: 1
02:13:57
Even though they’re listed at the end of the movie, because because, credits run off for ten minutes. Right? Those are the people working on the back ai. The person hanging the ai, you know his name? No. How about the makeup artist? No. The person, you know, who who got the wardrobe together?
Speaker: 1
02:14:11
Those are people working on the sideline. Who put the trailer on on the on the on the TV that, you know, the commercial to to promote the movie or or on the Internet. Those are people working online to promote that movie. Every one of those lines was important to that movie getting that many Oscars and becoming your favorite movie.
Speaker: 1
02:14:27
So no one line is any more important than any other line. And so I tell people, look, you don’t have to be on the front line. Pick where you feel comfortable and let’s all work together for the common goal.
Speaker: 0
02:14:40
So someone’s listening to this and say, okay. What Daryl’s saying really resonates with meh. How do I get started? How do I contribute? What would what would you suggest?
Speaker: 1
02:14:50
Email, Jeff Scoop at Beyond Barriers. Email DarylDavis@DarylDavis.com, or I cofounded an organization ai the Prohuman Foundation. Alright? And, you know, you mentioned anti racist. You tell people always anti this, anti that, anti that. Right? Mhmm. You know, I I hear so much of that. I say, you know what?
Speaker: 1
02:15:08
People keep talking about what they’re against. Why don’t we talk about what we’re for? That’s more positive. Right. I am not anti racist. Ai? Now what does that mean?
Speaker: 1
02:15:18
Because, wait. Wait. You’re not anti racist? What what what’s that mean? I you know, if you use it in terms of a noun, the racist being a noun, Ai not anti the person. I ram anti the person’s ideology.
Speaker: 1
02:15:32
I’m not anti racist. I’m anti anti racism. I’m anti the ism. I am pro human. Is what I am. So I wanna talk about what I’m what I’m for.
Speaker: 1
02:15:43
It’s all oh, yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So contact the prohumanfoundation.org. Contact Beyond Barriers and Parents for Peace of which I’m a part of as well, you know.
Speaker: 1
02:15:54
And we’ll and we’ll talk about how you can get involved in being pro and dispel, you know, don’t be against the person the be against the message, you know, if you wanna disagree with something.
Speaker: 0
02:16:05
I think that’s a beautiful way to end this. Thank you.
Speaker: 1
02:16:08
Thank you, Joe.
Speaker: 0
02:16:08
Thank you for everything you do. I mean, you’re a really extraordinary person.
Speaker: 1
02:16:11
And the line you’re on is the ai. So thank you, my friend.
Speaker: 0
02:16:14
My pleasure. My pleasure. And, Jeff, thank you for, you know, first of all, just spreading this message and having the courage to accept these bad decisions that you’ve made and how you got trapped and just to let people know how a person like yourself who does seem like such a nice and intelligent guy could get sucked into such an awful ideology.
Speaker: 0
02:16:36
Ai I think that that’s gonna help a lot of people. I really do.
Speaker: 2
02:16:40
Thanks so much for having us. It’s been an incredible honor to be here.
Speaker: 0
02:16:43
My pleasure. Alright. So your book, American Nazis, available now. And, Daryl, your book, Clan Whisperer, also available.
Speaker: 1
02:16:50
Ai one of your quotes there. Thank you, Derek.
Speaker: 0
02:16:52
Oh, did you?
Speaker: 1
02:16:52
Ai sure
Speaker: 0
02:16:53
did. Beautiful. Did you do the audio for this? Did you do the audio version of it?
Speaker: 1
02:16:57
Like like like Jeff, it’s a work in progress. Alright. Well, thank you, Calvin.
Speaker: 0
02:17:00
Thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate it. Alright. Bye ai.