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#2357 – Sarko Gergerian Podcast Episode Description
Sarko Gergerian is a law enforcement professional, mental health counselor, and advocate for psychedelic self-care. He is a founding member of the Community and Law Enforcement Action Partnership.
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#2357 – Sarko Gergerian Podcast Episode Top Keywords
#2357 – Sarko Gergerian Podcast Episode Summary
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#2357 – Sarko Gergerian Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
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00:01
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
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The Joe Rogan experience.
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Showing my day Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Sup, Sarkom? How are you? Hey.
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00:14
Hey. How How are you, Joe?
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00:15
Good to see you.
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00:16
Oh, it’s great to see you. It’s great to be here, man.
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00:18
How did you, meet Paul? So Paul Stamets Yeah. Introduced me to you. Yeah. So how did you meet Paul?
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00:23
Yeah. So I was aware of Paul for quite some tyler. And this past psychedelic science, I was shadowing, people and, were working to help the people that went to the conference feel safe just because of, like, the the nature of the, environment that that that we’re in now.
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00:43
In what way?
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00:44
You know, like, so sai science had, a lot of, Jewish practitioners. They had invited Palestinian practitioners in. There was Arab practitioners there. So there was a lot of, education around sensitive topics happening, you know. And, I was invited in, just to be available to help people feel secure.
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01:06
What were they worried about?
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01:09
Meh. Any protests building up?
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01:12
Just because there was Jewish people and Palestinian people?
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01:15
Well, you know, the nature of the environment. Right? There’s, like, wars going on across
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01:18
the world. Is a psychedelic conference.
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01:20
This is a psychedelic conference. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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01:23
And they’re worried about protests breaking out at psychedelic conferences?
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01:26
Possible protests, possible people getting overwhelmed with emotion. You know, because in Psychedelic Science 2023, there was a situation where when Dick Rick Doblin was on stage, a group came in and disrupted his presentation, and they were allowed on stage to speak. Oh, boy. Right? But that’s a type of disruption. Right? And and it should be handled carefully, and and Rick handled it like a master.
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01:51
What did he do?
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01:52
He he he made space for them.
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01:54
Oh, well, was that really the way to do it?
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01:56
Well, it depends. It depends. It depends. There’s a time and a place. Right? And I think Psychedelic Science twenty twenty five did a wonderful job, hearing all the groups that wanted to be there and allowing them to have space to speak from their hearts and minds.
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02:11
Why don’t you tell everybody what your background is?
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02:13
Sure. Sure. So I am currently a law enforcement professional at the rank of lieutenant, out of Massachusetts. I’ve been in law You can tell by the accent. I mean, my accent’s gonna kick in and on and off on and off through this whole discussion.
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02:29
Couple beers in. Right? Ai. Really go.
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02:31
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that’s been about fifteen years. I’m also a therapist, a trained psychedelic assistant therapist, and, I believe a lot of people believe I’m the first law enforcement professional who, who got a religious exemption at their place of work to access entheogens.
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02:52
So how did your journey from being a law enforcement professional to someone who’s involved in psychedelics, how’d that take place?
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03:00
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think I’m gonna have to go a little bit further back
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03:04
Oh, sure.
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For that. Sure. So, I went to a little high school in Boston, Massachusetts, Newman Prep. And when I graduated there, I was luckily accepted into Northeastern University. So I go into Northeastern University in my twenties, and they ask you what do you sana major in. Right?
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03:21
And who knows what they wanna major in at that age. I was like, let’s study ai. Right? And get to know ai, figure things out. Such a behavioral program.
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03:32
What I mean by that is rats pressing levers, observable stuff. I wasn’t getting what I was looking for. So I take a philosophy class. I take a religion class. Eventually, I take so many of those classes. I graduate with an undergraduate degree in religion and philosophy and a huge minor in psychology. Right? So I’m a seeker.
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03:55
At that time as well, Northeastern is a co op school. So you go to school for six months, you work for six months. I was able to convince my, coop ai to let me be a security guard in the nightclub industry in Boston for my coop for school. Okay? So five year ram, I’m studying religion, and I’m working as a security guard in the nineties in the nightclub scene in Boston.
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04:24
I have a front row seat when ecstasy hits the scene. Mhmm. Right? I start working when it’s high test stimulants and alcohol, and I’m there continuing to work when the scene gets introduced to ecstasy, MDMA. I not only get to see how it affects people, but it affect the whole culture.
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04:49
The people at the clubs are no longer looking at each other ai, who are you and what do you want? They’re saying hi and smiling. They’re high fiving each other when they meet up. They’re hugging each other. I had that in my head in my twenties. K? Mhmm.
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05:06
So I become a cop in my thirties. I meet this police chief. He notices that I think a little differently. I see things a little differently. My background’s a little different than your typical officer. He starts taking me to the International Association of Chiefs of Police conference every year. This is a really important point.
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The IACP, it’s a really serious, huge international conference with upper level chief executive level officers there. I go one year when Rick Doblin’s there in Florida. He’s presenting on phase two clinical trials the results for MDMA assisted psychotherapy, its efficacy against treatment resistant severe PTSD. I can’t believe it. Actually, Ai shared the story before.
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05:58
At the moment that he was gonna present, to the left was Rick Doblin, and to the right was Donald Trump. I’m not making this up. Wow. Ai. So I go left. I sit in the front row, and the room that they gave him, this huge ram, has 10 people in it because everybody’s everybody went right.
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06:17
Sixty seven percent of people with treatment resistant severe PTSD had their PTSD pushed into sustained remission. Sustained remission.
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06:31
From how many experiences?
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I think the way it was set up was, like, two or three. You know there’s a model to the framework. Preparation, experience, space, experience, space, experience, and then integration.
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06:43
And this is all done through MAPS, so it’s all done in a clinical ai?
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Yes. Very controlled? Very controlled. Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies. Rick’s presenting there. I’m in the front row. I’m shaking. I jump on stage. I beeline it to him. I introduce myself, and I sai, I have to help. He says, why don’t you tell me some stuff about who you are first? You know what I mean?
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07:07
Like, there’s this guy in front of me shaking his Ai shaking his hand and saying, I have to help with this. And he finds out I’m a therapist too. Cop and therapist. And he says the best way to help is to become a psychedelic assistant therapist. What? What’s that?
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07:22
You’d never heard of anything.
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07:24
Never heard of any of that. What year was this again? Man, it must be five years ago. More maybe more than that at this point. Just working from memory. It was Orlando, Florida, IACP conference. Yeah. You you said something really important, Joe. Psychedelic assisted therapist. What? What? Medicalizing a schedule one substance. What? You know? Right.
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07:52
How is this even possible? But the story gets even more interesting. He gives me his card, and he sai, contact me. Ai? What the heck is going on here?
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08:05
At this point, I’m already telling my current my retired chief what’s going on. I’m meeting these people. And MAPS gets me into one of the first MDMA assisted therapist trainings, a cohort of people that were gonna that they trained on how to do this methodology with people.
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So you gotta know what’s going on. Right? It’s a it’s a I mean, when someone’s on MDMA, they’re, you know, they’re different, and you gotta hold that. You gotta hold that. But not only did they do that, MAPS contacts me and says, we might be able to get you into a federally sanctioned research protocol as a healthy normal, because I’m an example of a healthy normal.
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Right? Where you’re gonna be able to experience MDMA because they think that it’s important for the therapists to know what MDMA does. So Ai I mean, really? I I I I go back to my police chief, and I say, chief, not only gonna be able to be trained as an MDMA assisted therapist to help people with PTSD because it matters to me.
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09:15
Right? What are cops doing to themselves? Right. They’re blowing their heads off. Right. Right?
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09:21
The suicide rate in cops is two to three times higher than the rate in civilians. More cops are dying by suicide ai the barrel of their own guns, than attack on the street. Right? The way the media is portraying everything, that that that’s not getting out there. Right. Right? So MDMA can help with that.
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09:45
I I’d say we’re in an epidemic of suicide in first responders, if if that’s the numbers. No? Yeah. For sure. Right? Yeah.
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09:57
And and and and we’ve seen Joe, you’ve seen this. You’ve had guests on that talk about this. You’ve seen what the government allows when we’re in an epidemic.
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10:07
Yeah. Radical measures.
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10:09
Radical measures. Not when it comes to compounds on schedule one. Why?
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10:15
Well, because it’s federally scheduled one. It’s supposed to have no medical use whatsoever and the most dangerous and addictive of compounds.
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10:24
That’s right. May I Yeah. Say something about that? It’s a lie.
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10:31
But what’s certainly a lie?
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Certainly a lie. And I need everybody to hear that because men and women are dying and suffering needlessly at the level of an epidemic, and arya upholding a lie.
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I think the problem is, politically, it’s very difficult to say what you’re saying if you’re anyone who is running for office or anyone who’s currently seeking reelection. Right? Because it carries with this this taboo, this narrative that has existed since the nineteen seventies, that these are drugs that are ruining people’s lives and, it’s, it’s gonna waste you you just gonna waste away.
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11:15
It’s sana, you’re just escaping reality. They’re for weak people. They’re for losers and addicts.
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11:22
You couldn’t have summed up, the problem better. Nicely done.
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11:27
It’s a public narrative that’s out there vatsal, unfortunately, is gonna take a long time to turn that battleship around.
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11:35
So I think what you’re helping with is that. I am asking for the politicians who can’t speak up to help make safety for those of us who either can or want to. I’m asking for their help because I’m active law enforcement. And I gotta tell you, Joe, we’re muzzled. We’re muzzled.
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12:03
Not only are our mouth shut, but our hearts are put in a cage.
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12:10
Ai, how so? What do you mean?
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12:11
We can we can law enforcement aspiring to build a career in the system can’t talk about this stuff. They not only can’t talk about this stuff, they can’t do this stuff. The so so but what they can do is keep their mouth shut until they get to the point where they put a barrel of their gun in their mouth, or they can go buy a giant bottle of whiskey and drink themselves into depression, divorce, divorce, divorce, subclinical depression, anxiety, disordered eating, disordered sexual practices?
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Because, you know, chronically activated autonomic nervous system, what does that cost? Fight, flight, freeze, fawn? Hypersexuality, I dropped the last f. Right? What does that destroy?
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It destroys everything.
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It destroys everything. Ai. It destroys the human behind the badge. Right?
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Well, the issue is that police officers experience trauma on a daily basis that most people can’t even comprehend, and it’s not discussed. All that’s ever discussed with police officers is when a cop does something bad.
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13:31
That’s right. Let me paint a picture based on what you just brought in. There’s research out there that says the amount of critical incident exposure in an average law enforcement career is two hundred.
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13:44
So two hundred murders, suicide, car accidents.
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13:47
Baby head crushed. Yeah. Two hundred. Most civilians have five. Critical incidents sana people’s lives sideways. So the first responders’ nervous system is a carrier of trauma at a level unimaginable by most people, which is what you just brought into this conversation. And then so you got the gasoline. Right? And you got the match. They fly off the handle and everyone acts surprised. How could that happen?
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14:20
How did that officer end up doing that? Because it’s a known risk of the job. And you know when we die? Five to ten years after retirement. That’s a dirty little secret. So you strive to get to retirement. You you carry the dark underbelly of society, and then you die five years after you get out.
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14:43
There’s no time to wait.
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14:49
Yeah. It’s it’s an unspoken trauma. It’s an unspoken issue that, you know, was really exacerbated during this whole defund the police shit that was going on a few years back. It was then you’ve got the demoralization, you know, and the fact that these people, not only they’re not appreciated, but then they’ve been all turned into villains.
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15:11
That’s right. That’s right.
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It makes it worse.
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Yeah. I work with some really caring young people, men and women, and, the whole defund the police movement was so hurtful. It was so hurtful. It hurt me watching them have to come to work and see them take the 911 calls for service and show up and do their best following the rules to make sure that that family or that person is okay and then come back and feel unappreciated and not understood.
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15:42
Not understood. Yeah. You know?
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15:46
Yeah. They were used as political pawns. Yeah. And, you know, openly openly by politicians who are still in office. It’s it was pretty disgusting. Yeah. And just short ai and a complete lack of awareness of the difficulty of the job. Because if you’re around cops, if you know cops, like, it is an insane job.
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16:09
It’s an insane job that you’re you’re asking people, just regular people, to go out and do on a daily basis.
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16:15
That’s right. That’s right. You don’t know what’s gonna happen. You don’t know who you’re interacting with. You don’t know if it’s gonna turn into a life or death situation. I see people try to paint the job as a normal job, and it isn’t. And someone’s gotta do it. Right? Someone’s gotta do it.
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16:37
Because it’s inherently a part of human nature at times for confusion to come through, for misunderstanding that leads to violence to happen. Someone has to show up and handle that. It’s not a normal job. Yeah.
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16:57
So from your first introduction to this idea of psychedelic therapy, how long before you actually experience it, and how long before you actually help other people experience it?
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17:13
Okay.
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17:13
So, Take us take us through so you you you find out about this, you bring it to the department. Yeah. And what was that like? Yeah.
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17:21
Meh. So it was very interesting. I mean, these were all ideas that weren’t even on my radar until I met Rick at the Chiefs of Police conference. They get on my arya, and they fire me up because this is what I wanna do. Right? Because of my history, I’m compelled to step in between warring parties and get them to stop. Okay? And we can touch upon that if it fits into the conversation.
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17:44
And then MAPS is able to get me into this research protocol, and I’m able to get permission from my chief to experience MDMA. I have an I have a mystical experience. I have a mystical experience on film. The segment when I’m you can’t make this up. When I take the blue pill, you know, Morpheus saloni there.
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18:08
You don’t wanna take the blue pill. You wanna take the red pill? Sai it
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18:10
the red one?
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18:11
Yeah. The red one’s the one that lets you see reality.
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18:13
Okay. So I’m flipping the colors. It’s okay.
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18:16
It was a blue one, puts
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18:17
you right back in the matrix. Reality. Right?
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18:19
And then yeah.
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18:21
But I I experienced MDMA on film. It makes it into Michael Pollan’s How to How to Change Your Mind, docuseries. Oh, yeah. That’s true. Episode. Right? And and I I have a mystical experience. So now I go back and I’m like, chief, you know, what what the hell. Right? Our men and women need access to this. If they need it, they should have access to it. They still don’t have access. This is where I’m going.
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18:45
This is where I’m going with this. You heard about what happened with the FDA. The the panel that was supposed to decide the final step before medicalization was allowed said no to Rick.
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18:58
Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. What they said, they wanted more tests.
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19:02
Yes. And and and I love that you did that because I I I tend to have to correct people. It wasn’t a no. They sai, we’re gonna delay you, and we want another phase three clinical trial. Right. Right? But some of the things that came up, I wanna talk about real quick, is they couldn’t make sense of how good the data was. Like, what?
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19:23
You’re gonna use that as a as a reason to not go forward?
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19:26
Is that really what they said?
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19:27
I I I believe that was part of the problem. Yeah. I mean, we can look this up. Okay. But I believe that was part of the problem. They also couldn’t make sense of how do you make the prescription a drug paired with therapy. They couldn’t make sense of the therapy part because it would be the first prescription of a drug paired with therapy. That was the goal.
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19:47
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20:43
Well, there’s and there also an issue with doing double blind placebo controlled studies because it’s very clear whether or not you’ve taken the drug?
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20:50
That’s right. That’s right. So here’s what I wanna ask you about that, and I wanna ask a science about that. Is that a problem with the power and magic of MDMA, or is that a problem with where science is?
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21:03
Well, it’s a perception problem. Right? Because, obviously, MDMA has profound impacts on soldiers, the PTSD. The studies have already been very clear, and MAPS has done an amazing job in explaining all that. But the problem is a perception issue. Okay. And that this drug is also used by people who go to raves and wind up dying of heat exhaustion, you know.
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21:27
And people die because they they hear they die of an overdose, which really, they died of fentanyl poisoning because they’re getting illegally sourced MDMA, which is probably not even really MDMA. A lot of times it’s amphetamines and it’s cut with fentanyl and there’s a lot of other shit in it, and they wound up dying of an overdose.
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21:43
That’s right. Look, you bring up, you bring up something called the the challenge of accessing safe supply. Yeah. Right? We need to, people need to ram their drugs, because because the illicit supply is isn’t standardized. It isn’t safe. But
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22:03
the real barrier is the fact that it’s illegal. That’s right. The problem is there is a demand. And so when you have a demand, and then you make it illegal for people to access, then what happens is outlaws step in. And you get criminal organizations who sell it, and they don’t give a fuck about you.
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22:20
There
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it is.
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22:21
And they’re used to killing people.
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22:22
There it is.
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22:23
They don’t mind poisoning you, and they don’t mind if they’re selling you something that’s totally not what you’re trying to get.
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22:28
That’s right. That’s right. And you know where I learned about this? I think you’ll get a kick out of this.
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22:33
Yeah.
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22:34
My promotional books, Studying to Become Sergeant. Really? Yeah. They actually have an entire section on what prohibition of alcohol cost.
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22:43
And yet nobody applies that to other substances. That’s
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22:47
exactly what
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22:48
It’s kinda funny.
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22:48
It’s kinda he right.
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22:50
Kinda funny.
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22:50
Tragically funny. Tragically funny. Ai? And and and here’s the muzzle part. Why aren’t officers allowed to talk about this? Why aren’t working officers allowed to talk about the problems with the war on drugs and how it’s being waged? Why? In America? Really?
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23:11
When you say you aren’t allowed to, what is it because it will hinder your career?
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23:16
I think so. Yeah? I think it’s fear. I think it’s programming. You mentioned the programming from the Nixon time till now. Right?
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23:23
Yeah.
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23:24
This is prohibited stuff. We can’t talk about it.
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23:28
Right.
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23:28
Not only can’t we talk about it, but we can’t think about it because thinking leads to behaviors, and if those behaviors are risky, out goes your career.
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23:37
Yes. Well, I think we’re in a very unique time now where the door is open. And, credit to Rick Perry, former Republican governor of Texas who championed the Ibogaine initiative here. And it’s now become a thing. They’re gonna start doing that, which is amazing. I am. And so beneficial for soldiers in particular, people with extreme PTSD, and people that are suffering from severe drug addictions, and they don’t understand ai, and they’re just they’re just fucked.
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24:08
A lot of soldiers and a lot of, you know, really traditionally right wing people are, getting involved in psychedelics. They’re going to psychedelic retreats. A lot of other soldiers that have had positive experiences and have gotten help are reaching out to their brothers and sisters, bringing them into these experiences.
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24:28
That’s right.
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24:29
So instead of this narrative that psychedelics are for hippies and losers with no discipline, now you’ve got some of the most disciplined human beings on Earth who are seeking these things out for help.
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24:42
That’s right. And
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24:44
realizing that there is strength in seeking help. It’s it’s not a weakness to take these things, and these things are not drugs in the sense of something that allows you to escape reality. They allow you to see reality through a completely different lens, and that can heal you. And this is not something that has been a narrative before.
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25:02
This this narrative is very recent. And this narrative particularly among right wing people, among conservative people, among disciplined people, hardworking disciplined people. Now they’re realizing, like, this is a tool that’s been denied us because of a corrupt government.
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25:16
A corrupt government that was seeking to silence the civil rights movement and the anti war movement in the nineteen seventies.
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25:23
That’s insane.
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25:23
In the nineteen sixties. This is what this is all about and we are still dealing with this shit sixty years later, which is really crazy.
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25:31
It is crazy.
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25:32
It’s fucking crazy. It’s so crazy because we know the facts now. We know what started it. We know who was involved. We we we we know the conversations that they had, why they did it in the first place. And meh, the public narrative is still the same. The public narrative is still drug takers arya undisciplined losers who are trying to escape reality, and I don’t want my kids doing drugs, and that that same shit that you hear over and over and over again.
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25:58
That’s right. That’s right. It’s it’s it’s crazy and extremely tragic.
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26:03
Yes.
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26:04
And let me let me take that narrative thread that you just brought in, and let’s go all the way back to the times when the Spanish were colonizing this country. It was actually part of the program to destroy the medicine and women medicine men and medicine women wisdom keepers, which directly connects, I believe, to the war on drugs.
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26:28
So that’s gone on forever. Right? I mean, that’s the Eleusinian Mysteries. They the Romans ai that. That’s right. You go to Siberian Shaman, the Ram I mean, they were silenced by the the powers that be in those days. It’s just always been the case where people that take things that allow them to understand the methods of control that are being inflicted upon them, and how to escape that.
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26:52
And then they get a bunch of other people that follow them, and they don’t wanna listen to propaganda anymore. And then people go, hey, this is a real problem. What’s the cause of this? Oh, it’s these fucking dudes go to Ill Ulysses, and they figure out life. We gotta stop that.
Speaker: 1
27:06
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
27:06
Yeah. We gotta put a fucking kibosh on that, and then they spread all throughout the world to try to do it. There it is. And they went into hiding.
Speaker: 1
27:12
Let’s bring that threat all the way to the present, and I wanna see if I can succeed at making this point. And it it it it has now hijacked law enforcement. It has hijacked law enforcement, and it moves law enforcement away from protecting and serving life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, and the first amendment religious expression into industry interest profits without us us even knowing it.
Speaker: 1
27:42
I’m not pointing a finger at any one law enforcement professional. I’m challenging people to wake up to what’s going on. Because when we kick in doors and arrest black and brown people for having a relationship with a plant like cannabis and charge them and put them in a cage and lock them up, and they weren’t doing anything violent, we have to ask who is this hurting.
Speaker: 1
28:06
And I’m here to tell you, it’s hurting them and us. For sure.
Speaker: 0
28:12
For sure. Because anyone who’s a law enforcement officer that’s arresting someone for weed, they know that they’re not doing anything good.
Speaker: 1
28:18
Moral injury.
Speaker: 0
28:18
Yeah. It’s a moral injury on the person that’s actually being forced to reinforce forced to enforce those laws.
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28:25
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
28:26
That’s right. Yeah. Because you you can’t feel good about yourself. You’re you’re arresting some guy who’s got an ounce of weed who’s sitting at home with his wife chilling. That’s crazy. And that went on for decades in this country. Decades.
Speaker: 1
28:37
Well, it’s still happening. Only for, somewhere around 40 states have recreationalized or medicalized, so we still have work to do. And if you look at the Drug Policy Ai, few years back, my we could look this up. We’re still arresting in the hundreds of thousands of people, nonviolent Maryland.
Speaker: 0
28:52
They’re trying to go backwards in Texas. Yeah. The the lieutenant governor is trying to go backwards, and he’s against the legalization. And so they’re they’re trying to ban all THC products
Speaker: 1
29:03
and It’s completely inappropriate.
Speaker: 0
29:05
It’s not just inappropriate. It’s funded. Okay? Right? It’s funded by the alcohol lobby, and they know that they’re losing people from drinking alcohol.
Speaker: 1
29:13
That’s right. The numbers are already showing it. Yeah. They’re they’re building up to a collapse. People are gonna get off the alcohol. They’re not gonna be be able to rely on the profits to be the same. I agree with you. And then you know what else? Cannabis is such a threat because it’s a medicine that can help with such a broad array of symptoms and challenges. What a threat to pharma.
Speaker: 0
29:36
Yeah. It’s definitely that. Just one plant. Just one plant. Yeah. I know. And it’s not just a threat to pharma. I mean, I’m sure you were you’re aware of the original reason why it was outlawed. Hit me. Okay. Remind me. William Randolph Hearst. So William Randolph Hearst.
Speaker: 0
29:52
So if you go back to the nineteen thirties when alcohol prohibition ended, you have a bunch of enforcement officers that aren’t doing anything anymore. Then you have William Randolph Hearst, and then there’s an an a machine, an invention called the decorticator. And the decorticator allowed them to effectively process hemp fiber.
Speaker: 0
30:12
Hemp was always a very difficult plant to process, And when Eli Whitney, was it Eli Whitney created the cotton gin? Is that what it was? It sounds right. I think that sounds right. When they created the cotton gin, now cotton took over for hemp clothing.
Speaker: 0
30:30
So cannabis, hemp, you know, the term cannabis, that was what canvas was. So all paintings, the first draft, the declaration of independence was made on hemp paper. It’s a superior textile. It’s a superior paper. It’s a commodity.
Speaker: 0
30:48
You can take an acre of land that you’re using to grow trees on that you process into paper, and it’ll take you years and years to regrow the trees in order to have the same amount of paper in that area. With hemp, it’s instantaneous almost. It grows very quickly, and within a few months, you have these plants again. You harvest the stalks. You run it through the decorticator.
Speaker: 0
31:15
So in ’19 whatever it was, nineteen thirty something, cover of Popular Science magazine, hemp the new billion dollar crop because of this invention. So this invention was gonna because hemp makes superior clothes. I have a hemp jiu jitsu sai that I got from this company called Datsura. It’s fucking indestructible.
Speaker: 0
31:37
My cotton gis, they rip apart all the time. They’re good for a year or two, and then they tear and you gotta buy a new one or you just show up at class with a fucked up key, which a lot of people do. Hemp keys are way better. They’re just far superior. Hemp paper, you grab it, you pull out, you tear it. You’re like, this is crazy.
Speaker: 0
31:53
It’s so much stronger than regular paper. It’s a superior product. So William Randolph Hearst, who didn’t just own Hearst publications, he didn’t just own this news ai, he also owned paper mills. So he also owned forests that he was growing trees in. He recognized this threat from this new industry.
Speaker: 0
32:13
And so to combat that threat, he starts putting out propaganda pieces, and then they coined the term marijuana. So marijuana was originally a term a a slang term for a wild Mexican tobacco. It had nothing to do with cannabis. Cannabis which had been used for thousands of years and hemp which had been used for thousands of years.
Speaker: 0
32:35
So then they start printing these stories vatsal blacks and Mexicans were taking this new drug and raping white women. And then you have the Reaper Madness films and all these propaganda films that show young people taking a smoke of marijuana and losing their ai. So people act quickly and they pass laws, not even knowing that they’re outlawing hemp, thinking that they’re stopping this new drug because most people are unaware of it.
Speaker: 0
33:03
Clearly, this is a time before the Internet, very difficult to access information and understand exactly what’s going on. Right. So they hoodwinked the entire world. So Harry Anslinger, William Randolph Hearst, they all conspired to stop a commodity, and that’s what hemp was.
Speaker: 0
33:19
It was it had nothing to do with the psychoactive form of THC. It had everything to do with hemp as a commodity that was threatening to Major threat. To the businesses. Yeah. Only just and to this day, you can make hempcrete. It’s a superior building material. It’s flame resistant. It’s lighter. It’s stronger. It lasts longer.
Speaker: 0
33:42
You can build houses with it. You can make clothes with it. Hemp oil is hemp seeds, they not only are they good for you, they contain all the amino acids. It’s a superior protein source. It’s ai hemp protein powder is fantastic for you. It’s ai really good stuff in so many different ways. And they put the kibosh on that in the nineteen thirties.
Speaker: 0
34:06
And that, ninety fucking years later, is still this this anchor around our necks that we’re carrying.
Speaker: 1
34:14
It’s still in place.
Speaker: 0
34:15
Sai have one asshole.
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34:16
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
34:17
One asshole in the nineteen thirties who who didn’t want to compete with him and had this incredible power because he owned the newspapers. Yep. He started this all.
Speaker: 1
34:26
That’s right. That’s right. I’m tracking. I’m tracking.
Speaker: 0
34:28
You ever seen that art pull up that arya, ram, the new billion dollar crop, because it’s wild to watch. Yep. Because this machine, this decorticator, before that, it was really it was brutal back breaking work to take the hemp fiber and break it down because it’s such a durable plant.
Speaker: 0
34:45
Like, if you ever pick up a hemp stalk, a hemp stalk that would this is a mammoth tusk, but this is heavy. But if you had a hemp stalk that was this size, it would be incredibly light like balsa wood, but hard like oak. It’s it looks like an alien plant. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
35:04
It sounds
Speaker: 0
35:04
It sounds amazing. Everything else. So here it is. Yeah. The new billion dollar crop. American farmers are promised a new cash crop with the annual value of several $100,000,000, all because of a machine that has been invented which can solve a problem more than 6,000 years old.
Speaker: 0
35:22
It is hemp, a crop that will compete with other American products. Instead, it will displace imports of raw materials and manufactured products produced by underpaid what does that mean? Coolie and peasant labor and will provide thousands of jobs for American workers throughout the land. So that was the machine underneath it.
Speaker: 0
35:42
That’s the decorticator, and that’s this new machine that they invented. And this is what it’s all about. It has nothing to do with marijuana was a real problem. We were losing people. No. People have been smoking marijuana and taking marijuana in edible form and, you know, the sadhus have been taking hashish.
Speaker: 0
36:00
They people have been using it for thousands and thousands of years without problems.
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36:04
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
36:04
Can you abuse it? Of course. You can abuse cheeseburgers too.
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36:08
I was just gonna say that.
Speaker: 0
36:09
Yeah. I don’t think you should shut down Burger King. That’s
Speaker: 1
36:11
right. You should be
Speaker: 0
36:11
able to get a fucking cheeseburger if you want. And there’s a lot of things that people can abuse. You can abuse every single thing. You can abuse cake. You can abuse everything. Human beings tend to abuse things. That doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be allowed to use it. It’s like a hammer.
Speaker: 0
36:24
You could build a house with a hammer, or you can hit yourself in the dick if you’re fucking crazy. It doesn’t mean we should outlaw hammers. That’s right. There is a use for these things, and they it requires discipline, and it requires an understanding of what the thing is.
Speaker: 0
36:38
But when you turn that thing into a schedule one substance, when everybody knows that’s not true, especially when you have a schedule one substance that is illegal, when there’s things like alcohol that are totally legal that I support. You should be able to drink. I don’t I own a bar. I don’t care. I don’t drink anymore, but I feel like you should be able to drink.
Speaker: 0
36:56
Ai drank most of my life. Drink if you want to.
Speaker: 1
36:59
I say the same thing about alcohol.
Speaker: 0
37:01
Good for you.
Speaker: 1
37:02
Right. Right. It’s a depressant that’s a carcinogen. Yeah. Again, when I It’s
Speaker: 0
37:05
also fun.
Speaker: 1
37:06
Right. It’s also fun. Get you Gypsy. And I drink.
Speaker: 0
37:08
Gypsy is fun.
Speaker: 1
37:08
Yeah.
Speaker: 0
37:09
But but the the point is we need freedom, and you need the freedom to be able to explore these things and find out what’s right for you and wrong for you, and you need the freedom to be able to run studies and get accurate information in terms of dosages and side effects and what sort of genetic issues that certain people might have that made them that make them more inclined to be addicted to alcohol or addicted to cannabis or what whatever their ai. We need to have information.
Speaker: 1
37:39
That’s
Speaker: 0
37:39
right. To put a blockade on this in the form of prohibition is stupid. And the fact that we’re doing it in 2025 with all the information that we have available today, we have an abundance of information.
Speaker: 1
37:52
That’s right. That’s right. Well, look, I think it was as you as you said, there was intentionality behind what was done. Yeah. And when you don’t have fifty years of creating an evidence base, you have a weaker argument for decriminalization. Right. And that was intentional.
Speaker: 0
38:08
Yes. For
Speaker: 1
38:09
sure. That was intentional. For sure. Right, Joe? I mean, you you brought this up. Right? Highly addictive, no known medical use. That’s a lie. We can go through the list of schedule one, and we can point out which one it’s a lie about, which one is actually anti addictive.
Speaker: 1
38:24
You you take psilocybin and you have an experience with psilocybin magic mushrooms, you don’t wanna drink. Right. We don’t know why we have we haven’t been able to study that. Right? Ibogaine. You sana a reprieve from your opioid use disorder?
Speaker: 1
38:36
Iboga Ibogaine will give it to you three, four, four months. Yeah. What’s that about?
Speaker: 0
38:41
Yeah. It’s also one experience has an eighty percent success rate. Eighty percent of the people don’t go back to opiates. Right. With two experiences is in the high nineties.
Speaker: 1
38:53
I so look look, Those numbers are staggering. Science can’t make sense of it.
Speaker: 0
38:57
Right.
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38:58
We’re in an epidemic. Well, we gotta slow down. We’ll watch out for the risks. We need to study these things more. I can respect that, but there’s harm in not allowing access to. We gotta talk about that.
Speaker: 0
39:10
You also have to make sense of it in a time where things are prescribed and you meh them for a doc from a doctor that we absolutely know are addictive and highly damaging and kill people.
Speaker: 1
39:22
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
39:23
So make sense of it to meh. If you’re there if there’s something, cannabis is the easy one. Right? Because it doesn’t kill anybody. Literally doesn’t kill anybody. The l d 50 rate for cannabis is fucking bananas.
Speaker: 1
39:34
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
39:35
You’d have to it’s not even physically possible to consume enough to kill
Speaker: 1
39:39
you. Same thing with psilocybin.
Speaker: 0
39:40
Yes. Right? Exactly.
Speaker: 1
39:42
There’s this research study. It’s at the the
Speaker: 0
39:44
You’d have to eat a mushroom the size of this fucking table. You wouldn’t physically be able to consume it.
Speaker: 1
39:50
If that even does. Right.
Speaker: 0
39:51
That’s right. If that even kill and vatsal 50. That would be fifty percent of the population would die of an overdose from that.
Speaker: 1
39:56
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
39:56
And you wouldn’t be able to consume it. Physically, you wouldn’t be able to fit it into your body enough to kill you.
Speaker: 1
40:01
Yeah. Yeah. And then on top of that, Joe, we have the federal government giving permission to certain groups of people to access plants, cacti, fungi, animal secretions with permission and not others under a religious context. Right. So is it dangerous? Is it not? Right. Is it a sacred sacrament? Is it not? Right. Right.
Speaker: 1
40:28
Is it a medicine
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40:29
Brazilian churches that are taking Ayahuasca.
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40:31
Right.
Speaker: 0
40:32
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
40:32
Right. And again, ai, we’re talk we talk it I don’t sana talk poorly about alcohol. I drink alcohol. I’m not talking poorly about these people should go get their rights. Right? Yes. More power to them. But you can’t have it both ways. Not them.
Speaker: 1
40:47
I’m talking to the government.
Speaker: 0
40:49
Right. You have to make logical sense as to why you’re imposing these laws and then imprisoning people and taking away their freedom for not listening to you.
Speaker: 1
40:58
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
40:58
Because you don’t make any sense. And here’s another part of the problem. A vast majority of the people that are pushing for these laws and want these people to be locked up have not had these experiences
Speaker: 1
41:11
ai,
Speaker: 0
41:12
and that’s a part of the problem.
Speaker: 1
41:13
That’s a big ai
Speaker: 0
41:14
of the problem. They don’t know what they’re talking about. They don’t know what these experiences are. That’s right. That’s right. Like, these drugs are gonna ruin your mind. Are you fucking sure? Because I don’t think they are. I don’t think you’re correct. I think they open your mind up to new possibilities and expand your consciousness in a way that I don’t think is available without them.
Speaker: 1
41:33
I agree. It isn’t available without them, and that’s was intentionally blocked out. So, you you know, the the we’re hearing the stories about the the the really brilliant tech people. Right? You dig deep enough, they’ve had some experiences with these things.
Speaker: 0
41:47
Yeah. Ai a large number of them. Right? And still do a large number of them.
Speaker: 1
41:51
Right? Yeah. So these things that are so dangerous Mhmm. Or are we blocking up certain blocking out certain groups from having access? And this is one of my primary things that I try to talk about. I want the audience that’s in law enforcement to go why? Why is this the case?
Speaker: 1
42:08
Why do I feel uncomfortable not talking about this? Why do I feel uncomfortable saying that this sergeant who might be hurting needs access? Say it. Bring it up. Talk.
Speaker: 1
42:18
Right. Go into your power.
Speaker: 0
42:20
But people are scared of
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42:21
losing their career. Right? Imagine. Yeah. For talking about something.
Speaker: 0
42:26
And losing their career because most people are ignorant of it. That’s right. Yeah. That’s right. And the only way that that’s gonna change is you and I and other people to continue to have these public conversations where more people hear it. And there’s I guarantee you, there’s people listening to this right now that have never heard this before, never considered this before, and ram I wrong?
Speaker: 0
42:47
Do I have these deep held beliefs that are completely ignorant? And why why do I have these beliefs? What’s what started them? Why why why do I have this in my mind as this is what this stuff is?
Speaker: 1
42:59
Exactly. And
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43:00
there’s a lot of people out there that are stone cold, sober, disciplined people think that’s the only way. This is the way.
Speaker: 1
43:06
That’s right. That’s right. And you know what? Maybe meh this is the way. That’s your way. Yeah. We’re human beings. We’re called to create an artistic expression of a unique life. To me, that’s what the divine is commanding. That’s what the divine gets to experience. The more of us who get to live and be our authentic selves internally and expressing them outwardly, the more the divine gets to experience unique difference.
Speaker: 0
43:37
Well, the more possibilities there are for creativity, the more possibilities there are for people to rethink their lives, go get on a better path. There’s a lot that people are missing just because you’ve been hoodwinked and you’ve been led into this false narrative
Speaker: 1
43:54
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
43:55
That all it’s also the there’s a problem with the term drugs. Because just Ai hear drug, I hear drugged. I hear someone is all fucked up and doesn’t know what’s going on. How are you putting all these things under the same blanket including nicotine and caffeine and things cannabis in there and you also have methamphetamine in that category. Mhmm.
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44:19
How do
Speaker: 0
44:19
you have cannabis and methamphetamine in the same thing?
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44:21
Same cow.
Speaker: 0
44:22
How do you have psilocybin and heroin in the same group of things? That’s right. That’s these this is crazy.
Speaker: 1
44:28
That’s right. That’s right.
Speaker: 0
44:29
How do you have industrial opiates?
Speaker: 1
44:31
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
44:32
They’re all in that same category?
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44:34
We’ve been stripped of our power to define what medicine is.
Speaker: 0
44:38
Yes.
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44:39
Right?
Speaker: 0
44:40
Yeah.
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44:40
Have you heard people sai, community is meh? Yeah. Joy is meh.
Speaker: 0
44:45
Oh, yeah. For sure. It is. Right?
Speaker: 1
44:47
Yeah. Well, ask a hardcore western science model is that meh, and then go, well, you gotta show us the evidence.
Speaker: 0
44:55
Yeah. Right? Well, there is evidence that, like, loneliness is, like, worse than cigarette smoking That’s right. In terms of, like, how long you live.
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45:03
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
45:03
Yeah. That’s right. Well, we
Speaker: 1
45:04
can show that. Right? But is community meh? I say it is. Yeah. But this, the point I’m trying to make is how did we lose the power to define what medicine is for ourselves? Yeah. Right? Joy is medicine. Community is medicine.
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45:20
And there’s the right Maybe
Speaker: 0
45:21
the term medicine is the wrong term. Maybe it’s good for you. Sure. But
Speaker: 1
45:26
but but why define medicine in such a rigid way? Also, why only allow one methodology to create an evidence base for that medicine? Let me give you an example.
Speaker: 0
45:38
Okay. And
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45:38
this is Paul Stamets. I I listened to him talk at Psychedelic Science 2025 where he said we should see the world through two eyes, western science and indigenous wisdom. Right? And and they don’t have to be attacking one another. Right. Right? The time of extractionary capitalistic relationships with this living planet might have to be coming to an end. And what’s gonna replace it? Reciprocity, stewardship, care, community? Yeah. Right?
Speaker: 1
46:13
These two eyes, they need to be in the same being. They need to work together.
Speaker: 0
46:17
Really makes you wonder what would the world look like had they not placed that sweeping ai act of 1970 and then imposed those standards on most of the rest of the world as well. What what would the world look like? It’ll be radically different.
Speaker: 1
46:32
I believe that it would be radically different. Right.
Speaker: 0
46:34
It was well, the this is what they were scared of. The difference between the nineteen fifties and the nineteen sixties culturally is clear. It’s evident in everything. It’s evident in the music. It’s evident in the artwork, the films. It’s evident in the cars, the design of the automobiles, ai, everything changed.
Speaker: 0
46:52
And it changed because the culture was accepting psychedelics. It was a big part of it. It was LSD and psilocybin and marijuana and all these different things these people were experimenting with. And then out of that, you get Jimi Hendrix. You know, you get this wild new form of expression that was radically different than music that appeared before that.
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47:14
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
47:15
That’s right. Scared of that.
Speaker: 1
47:16
That’s right. And, you know, I just made a comment about my belief system to you. Who gets to experience and be with that or in that and of that? That’s the divine. That’s Jimi Hendrix outside of the box. Yeah. Right? Yeah. That level of artistic expression, I think that’s our purpose. Yeah. Right? And you’re right.
Speaker: 1
47:36
We took that away. We pushed it into the underground, and then we hijacked our law enforcement to show up as enforces Yeah. Kicking doors and take people to cages.
Speaker: 0
47:45
Yeah.
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47:46
Right?
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47:47
Meh of our own community.
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47:48
That’s right.
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47:48
Yeah.
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47:49
And who did we hurt? Our community and our law enforcement.
Speaker: 0
47:52
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
47:52
So this is what I wanna be clear on here. I want law enforcement to ask why. Why? Why are we in this current moment? Why are we still arresting people for wanting a relationship with plants, cacti, fungi, animal secretions? Why? Are we protecting and serving our community members or industry interests?
Speaker: 1
48:12
When you start asking these questions, think shah. Yeah. For me, they did. They made me into an activist. Not only an advocate, but an activist.
Speaker: 1
48:21
So I got behind Massachusetts ballot question four in a very public way. What is that? That was to decriminalize the psychedelics and create healing centers in Massachusetts. 43, 44% of adults voted yes, but it wasn’t enough. It wasn’t enough. Listen to what I just found out before I came to your show today.
Speaker: 1
48:40
The the Ai Society of Massachusetts just endorsed or got behind three psilocybin bills. They didn’t get behind the ballot question, which failed, but they’re now getting behind decriminalizing psilocybin measures that are at the state house. Well, that’s great. It’s great.
Speaker: 0
49:02
But, yeah, progress is being made. I mean, it happens at a snail’s pace, and it happens through back breaking labor ram people like you and Paul Stamets and Rick Doblin and and so many more who are who are doing the Lord’s work literally. But this is it’s just a frustrating thing for a lot of people that know the truth behind this, that how many people it can help, and then how many people who are being damaged by these unfair, unjust, immoral, and illogical laws.
Speaker: 1
49:28
There they are. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. And if we bend it if we bend it, if you take on one end the enforcers, right, which I believe are called to be peace officers and guardians, and the other end, the civilians, which are being split up into groups and pitted against one another and you bend them, everybody’s getting hurt.
Speaker: 1
49:48
Yeah. And trauma load is exponentially growing. Yeah. Exponentially growing. And what is the media like to put out there? Not media like this, but standard media.
Speaker: 1
49:58
The algorithm is based on hate, fear, division, ai? Well, the algorithm is based on your interaction, and unfortunately, people tend to lean towards those things. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
50:11
That’s the problem. The algorithm is not evil. The the problem is human beings can be easily manipulated by their own ai, and these ideas that they have and these this inclination to pay more attention to things that outrage you.
Speaker: 1
50:27
And fear. And fear. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
50:29
Right. Things that cause rage and fear and and and distrust that unfortunately, things that you hate is the those are the things you pay attention to. That’s right.
Speaker: 1
50:39
That’s right. I mean, we’re biologically created to worry about things that we fear.
Speaker: 0
50:43
Right.
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50:44
Right? And logically, I’ll give you an example from my community. I think about this all the time. There’s about twenty, twenty five thousand people in my community. Every day, they wake up, they go to work, they interact with one another and go to bed. Twenty, twenty five thousand people with one or two issues that the cops have to go to. That’s amazing. People are wildly nice.
Speaker: 0
51:06
Yeah. For the most part. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
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51:08
And in control and okay.
Speaker: 0
51:10
Yeah. But the problem is cops deal with the very small percentage of people that aren’t.
Speaker: 1
51:15
There it is. Yeah. There’s this research article called the clinician’s delusion. I call it the enforcer’s delusion, where your perspective gets completely warped based on the people that you continually interact with.
Speaker: 0
51:27
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
51:27
So when you’re continually showing up and helping people in their worst moment, you think everybody’s their worst moment all the time. Of course. Right?
Speaker: 0
51:36
Right.
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51:37
That’s a that that’s a box. That’s a dark box, a lonely, terrible box to be in.
Speaker: 0
51:43
And to require officers to be able to escape that and have objectivity is crazy. Like, how how? But but through what mechanism of the human mind allows you to ignore all the evidence that you see on a daily basis?
Speaker: 1
52:00
Your evidence.
Speaker: 0
52:01
Right.
Speaker: 1
52:01
Right. Right. Personal experience. That critical incident Right. Amplified data set.
Speaker: 0
52:07
Right.
Speaker: 1
52:08
Your that that activated nervous system. It actually makes you rely on your biases more. Instead of being able to check your biases, it it it actually listens to your biases more. So so an officer now is taught ai to slow down if you can. Why? So you can breathe. Why? So you can check your bias before you act. Ai?
Speaker: 1
52:33
Yeah. Because you’re amped up.
Speaker: 0
52:36
Right.
Speaker: 1
52:36
The quicker you act, the safer you’ll be. Right. And that’s through that automatic process near the brain stem
Speaker: 0
52:42
Right.
Speaker: 1
52:43
Not here.
Speaker: 0
52:45
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s a dark predicament, you know, because there’s a lot of people that are gonna fall victim before anything gets changed.
Speaker: 1
52:55
I agree. I agree. And and, you know, Joe, when, back to that FDA committee that, delayed everything with MDMA, I ended up really, really sad for, like, three months because of what you just said. A lot of people who will benefit from MDMA are not gonna be able to access not access, not for a month or two, for years, for years vatsal cost that could hurt a person like Rick Doblin and MAPS and and Ai and the the philanthropists that help him get to this point.
Speaker: 1
53:33
That’s how expensive it is.
Speaker: 0
53:35
Yeah. And then the cost of human life.
Speaker: 1
53:37
And the cost of human life.
Speaker: 0
53:39
Is compounded every year.
Speaker: 1
53:40
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
53:41
And all the people they interact with and the butterfly effect of that.
Speaker: 1
53:45
That’s right. Yeah. That’s right. And let’s let’s take that thread back to what you said. Could you imagine the world we could live in if these things were available to people sai that that they could heal, so that they could dream, so that they can become their own versions of Jimi Hendrix.
Speaker: 1
54:00
Yeah. You know?
Speaker: 0
54:02
I know. It’s it’s really crazy when you think about it that one president and one administration changed the course of civilization because they wanted control, they wanted to stop the anti war movement and the civil rights movement. And that’s the fact. That’s really what happened.
Speaker: 1
54:17
And I like that statement, course of civilization Yeah. Because they succeeded at taking it on a roadshow into other countries Yeah. Through international treaties. Yes. You know, this brings something up. I was blessed with being able to go and speak on a panel at the United Nations, and it was put together by an organization called LEAP Law Enforcement Action Partnership.
Speaker: 1
54:39
I wanna give a shout out to Diane Goldstein, amazing executive director of a wonderful organization of law enforcement that are trying to change these issues. And we spoke about access for psychedelics for law enforcement, and I was able to call out schedule one at The United Nations at the CND Commission on Narcotic Drugs and sai, we need to do away with the schedule.
Speaker: 1
55:04
And here’s the two things that I found out I wanted to get to this point. The World Health Organization has now recognized that schedule one is a fraud. It’s fake. It’s unscientific. They’re gonna try to create their own. Right?
Speaker: 1
55:16
And two, I got to see how they spend all day on a treaty focusing on one word across, like, 40 countries, whether they agree on that one word or not.
Speaker: 0
55:29
And what was the word?
Speaker: 1
55:31
Make up a word. Arya they gonna allow harm reduction into the treaty? All day. Twelve hours later, they’re asking this country if it’s okay and that country if it’s okay. I went, oh meh god. You said snail’s pace. I think you said snail’s pace. Yeah. This is even slower than a snail’s pace. It’s painful. Yeah. Change, having it happen is painful. It’s incredible.
Speaker: 0
56:04
Yeah. It’s, well, it’s what happens when people once once people have laws and they enforce those laws, and someone comes along and says those laws are unjust, it’s very difficult to get back rights that you’ve already lost. Very difficult. Once they’re lost, like and this is, like, what’s really obvious about the nineteen seventies Schedule one Act.
Speaker: 0
56:27
It’s because it’s ai we’re we’re dealing with the same issue all these years later, but it’s not the nineteen seventies. Right? So we have all the access to the data now instantaneously. You could pull it up on chat g p t. Yeah. You know, ai, right now, instantaneously.
Speaker: 0
56:43
So there’s no excuse for it. But yet, it’s still difficult to get these laws changed. Insanely difficult. It takes so much time.
Speaker: 1
56:53
Well, so the system that we have takes the power, and then it doesn’t wanna give it back. This is what I’m hearing. Yeah. And then you’ve gotta fight to give it back. But you did indicate something which I agree with. Things are speeding up Yeah. Because of technology. I mean, technology’s involved in this show and us being able to talk to each other. Right? This is a miracle in and of vatsal.
Speaker: 1
57:15
People being able to share ideas at a lightning pace influencing one another. Yeah. If that’s a miracle in and of vatsal. But I wanna bring up a point. Maybe we can explore this together.
Speaker: 1
57:26
People are taking back their power and recognizing that the founding documents of this country are designed to protect the life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, and religious expression of the individual human being. It’s the most radical thing ever.
Speaker: 0
57:45
Yeah. It is.
Speaker: 1
57:47
It’s it’s it’s sai sacred establishment that we’re working under, but people don’t realize that the individual, when they truly sincerely believe what they’re doing in this country, they can do it as long as it doesn’t harm another human being. It’s that simple.
Speaker: 0
58:05
Yeah. That’s what it should be.
Speaker: 1
58:07
Yeah. Let’s talk about that. How do we get to the point where people realize that that’s the way it should be? We wake the enforces up. We get the politicians to help create safe space for the exploration of these topics. We meet up in conversation and break bread in safety.
Speaker: 0
58:34
Well, I think the the big thing is public perception. Public perception moves all those other things because then people will contact politicians and respond by not voting for them or voting people out that do have ai, this lieutenant governor. He’s politically in deep water because so many people have reacted so negatively to this this draconian attempt to ban all THC products where people are ai, why? Yeah.
Speaker: 0
59:01
Like, what are you doing? And what are you being paid by? Like, what what lobbies are enforcing this idea? Like, what where is this coming from?
Speaker: 1
59:11
Right. Right. So it’s gonna weaken his position. Yeah. Yeah. I Well, it’s
Speaker: 0
59:15
gonna weaken weaken his career, and rightly so. Rightly sai. It should. He’s on the wrong side of history.
Speaker: 1
59:19
There it is. There it is.
Speaker: 0
59:21
Yeah. And the public perception has changed. It’s changed pretty radically. And I I credit the Internet with that because over the last twenty years, you’ve seen this massive shift in this idea that psychedelics are dangerous. You could lose your mind to, hey, that’s how my uncle quit smoking. You know, hey, that’s how my aunt got off of opiates.
Speaker: 0
59:40
Hey, that’s you know, and everyone knows somebody that’s had positive experiences that was, you know, deeply depressed and now is a different person, and they’re they’re so much happier and healthier because of it. And so it’s the the narrative publicly has shifted Has shifted. And a lot of it is because of conversations, and a lot of it is because of podcasts.
Speaker: 0
59:59
A lot of it is access to information. There’s plenty of online documentaries about it now.
Speaker: 1
01:00:04
That’s right. Yeah. That’s right. And, you know, Joe, I I wanna give credit to the courageous people who are the carriers of this knowledge and wisdom by experimenting, learning, realizing. Right? This is the hero’s journey. Ai? Going into the darkness, ai, metaphorically and literally into the underground Mhmm. And coming back with the bounty, the realization. Right? Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:00:27
The gold and sharing it.
Speaker: 0
01:00:29
Yeah. And having the courage
Speaker: 1
01:00:30
to share. A courageous act.
Speaker: 0
01:00:31
Well, especially if you’re in a business like yourself, like law enforcement, you know, where it’s ai, that’s a forbidden topic.
Speaker: 1
01:00:38
That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. And, you know, I was able to access MDMA, and, I had a numinous experience. I felt like I was surrounded by love. I was gifted a gratitude that was big enough to hold everything that went into who I am in the present moment. Let me explain that real quick.
Speaker: 1
01:00:58
If I accept myself wholly, wholly, completely, I have to accept my light and dark aspect as well. I have to accept my traumas as well. I have to expect my lineage’s history as well in its entirety. I’m not saying something radical. There’s been books written about this by smarter people than I.
Speaker: 1
01:01:17
MDMA helped me access that. Right? I’ve experienced ketamine. Ketamine, I say, was like a luscious massage of my soul. I felt like the energy of my being was traveling in and out of my body, and I had three energetic streams traveling with me.
Speaker: 1
01:01:37
My martial arts instructor periodically, my wife, and God on ketamine. It was under What do
Speaker: 0
01:01:46
you mean through streams, ai, in what way?
Speaker: 1
01:01:48
Energetic streams. So on ketamine, I felt like there was a bit of a disembodiment that occurred. Right? And we can label what that disembodiment is. It’s sai a disassociative anest aesthetic. People say it feels like their spirit, soul, or identity disconnected from their body. I had that happen. But the energy wasn’t just one.
Speaker: 1
01:02:11
I had remembrances of these three. I felt like I needed to give gratitude to God. I felt like the presence of my wife was with me and my martial arts instructor as well, Doreen Cogliandro. And her energetic their energetic streams were going in and out of my body, and I could remember such joyous thoughts associated to them.
Speaker: 1
01:02:35
It was like a massage to my spirit. You know? And the thoughts associated with that massage and that peace and that sense of safety was there. Ketamine lifts suicidality in minutes. It just became a medicine approved for depression. Why? That’s weird. Why did that just happen?
Speaker: 0
01:02:59
I don’t know. Well, it’s been going on for quite a bit. Right? I mean, I know people in Los Angeles were doing it a decade ago.
Speaker: 1
01:03:05
Well, here’s the thing. Let’s let’s broaden that. How long were the people partying with it? Right?
Speaker: 0
01:03:10
I don’t know. I did I knew of a guy who had a problem with it. He was a MMA fighter. He got addicted to ketamine. And, I remember a friend of mine went to visit him in a rehab center, and he was all fucked up. But but that was the narrative that he was doing ketamine. I was like, oh, he’s doing a tranquilizer? Like, this is, nineteen nineties, ai late nineties.
Speaker: 1
01:03:31
Okay. And I Well, you can get addicted.
Speaker: 0
01:03:33
Ketamine is addictive? You can get
Speaker: 1
01:03:34
you can get addicted to ketamine. Not like like an opiate.
Speaker: 0
01:03:39
Is it a psychological addiction or is it a physical addiction?
Speaker: 1
01:03:42
There there might be a combination. I don’t wanna purport to speak about it scientifically too much, but I’ve heard that can be a compulsion
Speaker: 0
01:03:50
to use it.
Speaker: 1
01:03:50
And it can kinda it can hurt your bladder if you go overboard.
Speaker: 0
01:03:54
I know a lot of people Right. In the Austin area use it recreationally. We actually had a girl go into a k hole at my club.
Speaker: 1
01:04:00
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:04:01
She was in the middle of the comedy club just.
Speaker: 1
01:04:03
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s full disembodiment. Right? You’re in another place Yeah. And your somatic self has to be kept safe.
Speaker: 0
01:04:10
Doing a nasal speak, so they’re, like, doing it throughout the day.
Speaker: 1
01:04:14
That’s the prescription.
Speaker: 0
01:04:16
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:04:16
I forget from what company for depression. Meh.
Speaker: 0
01:04:20
So you could kinda double pump and for sure go a little overboard.
Speaker: 1
01:04:25
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:04:25
Do it all day long if you want.
Speaker: 1
01:04:27
If you wanted to.
Speaker: 0
01:04:28
Yeah. That’s sai that’s a problem with well, that’s a problem with everything. Right? You know, it’s a problem with any meh I mean, if you really need Adderall, you have ai chronic fatigue and Adderall is the only thing that lifts you out of that. What’s to stop you from taking two pills?
Speaker: 1
01:04:41
I’m glad you did that. Three pills. That’s right. Or even even coffee. Right? Yeah. Double espresso can become a ai. Yeah. Then you’re drinking six.
Speaker: 0
01:04:48
Oh, I know a lot of people are Right. Addict I mean, I’m kind of addicted to caffeine. Yeah. I quit it when I was on my vacation. I was on vacation for ten days and I didn’t have any coffee, any caffeine at all for five, six days. Ai was like, oh, I sleep so much better. I feel so much better. But I feel like when it comes to conversations, it’s like Sai lean on it. I lean on caffeine. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:05:08
Lean on it to get me going.
Speaker: 1
01:05:09
I’m a happier person on caffeine. I really enjoy that substance.
Speaker: 0
01:05:12
I like it. I just wanted to know that I could stop taking it and there wouldn’t be any problem. It was no problem at all. Yeah. I stopped taking nicotine pouches and I stopped taking caffeine for I I stopped the nicotine pouches for ten whole days and I was like, I’m fine. And I’ve stopped the caffeine for five or six days and I said, I feel like having a cup of coffee.
Speaker: 0
01:05:29
And I I limited myself to one cup a day.
Speaker: 1
01:05:33
Yeah. I I get, I have a hard time coming off of caffeine. But I You get headaches? But I’ve done it. Yeah. I get headaches. It affects my mood a little bit. Yeah. Ai like I like it. I like the caffeine.
Speaker: 0
01:05:43
Yeah. I don’t think it’s overall detrimental. I don’t think it affects your judgment. I don’t think it makes you do anything squirrelly. Yeah. You know, it just gives you a little it peps you up a little bit.
Speaker: 1
01:05:53
I mean, most of the world is having it in the morning. Yeah. Right. And then most of the world is having a drink at night.
Speaker: 0
01:05:58
Yeah. But, you know, this is also the argument for coca leaves because coca leaves apparently is a superior stimulant. It’s just they chew it, and they chew coca leaves and this is something that, you know, farmers and hardworking people in South America have been doing forever.
Speaker: 1
01:06:15
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:06:15
And, unfortunately, somebody figured out how to synthesize it and turn it into cocaine and then it became illegal.
Speaker: 1
01:06:20
Illegal.
Speaker: 0
01:06:20
Yeah. Now you can’t get because if you meh just coca leaves and just chew on coca leaves in America, I mean, maybe that’s superior to coffee.
Speaker: 1
01:06:28
We don’t know because we can’t try.
Speaker: 0
01:06:30
Exactly. And
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01:06:31
that that is the block of experimentation Yeah. That’s unjust.
Speaker: 0
01:06:35
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:06:37
Right? You know what’s interesting about cocaine is it’s medically appropriate. I think they use it for eye surgery. Ai?
Speaker: 0
01:06:48
Yeah. There’s medical uses for it. Sai
Speaker: 1
01:06:50
I I I I can’t, off the top of my head, remember if it’s on schedule one. I don’t think it is.
Speaker: 0
01:06:55
Cocaine’s not on schedule one, really?
Speaker: 1
01:06:56
I mean, we could look it up because That’s interesting. Well, here’s the thing. If it can be used for eye surgery Right. Right? So it’d be interesting to see.
Speaker: 0
01:07:05
Yeah. So is it ai a numbing agent? Is that what it is?
Speaker: 1
01:07:07
It they they’ve just I’ve heard that they’ve realized before it was, it became a big issue that it’s safe for eyeball. Yeah. Ai numbing agent.
Speaker: 0
01:07:17
Well, I know there’s medical cocaine. I do know that. I just don’t know what the applications are.
Speaker: 1
01:07:21
Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:07:22
Yeah. You know the number one, manufacturer of it? Coca Cola. Coca Cola. Yeah. They still use the Coca Cola for flavor for Coca Cola, but
Speaker: 1
01:07:35
Ai, they shut down the cocaine molecule somehow.
Speaker: 0
01:07:38
They extract it. Right. And they use it to produce medical grade cocaine. Interesting.
Speaker: 1
01:07:44
Yeah. And then and then something of that still gets into
Speaker: 0
01:07:49
The flavor
Speaker: 1
01:07:50
Meh.
Speaker: 0
01:07:50
Is what’s in coke I Ai guess it’s the flavonoids. That’s what’s in Coca Cola. And it used to be cocaine was in Coca Cola. Yeah. I would like to go back and try some of that. I like to go like, what was that like? Like, how much cocaine was in there?
Speaker: 1
01:08:03
You think they have original recipe Coke bottles at the factory?
Speaker: 0
01:08:07
With cocaine? At Coca Ai mean, what year was that?
Speaker: 1
01:08:09
Coke headquarters.
Speaker: 0
01:08:10
What year did they let’s find out what year they took cocaine out of Coca Cola. Because I remember the whole story for I don’t remember exactly the details of, like, how cocaine was in Coca Cola for the first place. But cocaine used to be ai, 1929. So nineteen o three, fresh coca leaves were removed from the formula.
Speaker: 0
01:08:34
After nineteen o four, instead of using fresh coca leaves, Coca Cola started using spent leaves, the leftovers of the cocaine extraction process with trace levels of cocaine. And since then, by 1929, they viewed cocaine free. So in nineteen o three, they started removing cocaine.
Speaker: 1
01:08:52
But there’s but but they’re still using cocaine free Coca leaf extract.
Speaker: 0
01:09:00
Yes. Meh. And they’re the only company, I believe, that’s allowed to do that. I think they’re grandfathered in. And how did who invented Coca Cola with cocaine? Find that out. Like, what’s the story? What is the story of cocaine and Coca Cola? Okay. Pemberton called for five ounces of coca leaf per gallon of syrup, a significant dose in 1891.
Speaker: 0
01:09:27
Candler claimed his formula altered extensively from Pemberton’s originally contained only a tenth of this amount. Oh, so it used to be really juicy. Coca Cola once contained an estimated nine milligrams of cocaine per glass. For comparison, a typical dose or ai of cocaine is fifty to seventy five milligrams.
Speaker: 0
01:09:44
So it was like a a mild pick me up, nine milligrams. After nineteen o four, instead of using fresh leaves, Coca Cola started using spent leaves. Today, that extract is prepared at a Stephan company, Stepan company plant in, Maywood, New Jersey, the only manufacturing plant authorized by the federal government to import and process coca leaves, which it oped which it obtains from Peru and Bolivia.
Speaker: 0
01:10:10
Stepan Company extracts cocaine from the leaves, which it sells to Mallenkrocht, the only company in The United States licensed to purify cocaine for medical use.
Speaker: 1
01:10:20
Medical use. There it
Speaker: 0
01:10:22
is. Wild. They call it here in the and the ad says it’s, excuse me, intellectual beverage. Intellectual beverage. Brain tonic. A valuable brain tonic. A cure for all nervous afflictions, affections, sick, headache, neurologica, whatever that is, hysteria, melancholy, etcetera. The particular oh, peculiar ai of Coca Cola delights every palate.
Speaker: 0
01:10:49
It is dispensed from the soda fountains in the same manner as any of the fruit syrups. Wow.
Speaker: 1
01:10:56
What an advertisement.
Speaker: 0
01:10:57
Wow. Ai like to go back and try that. I’d like to go back to 1900 and get a glass and see what’s up. North Carolina.
Speaker: 1
01:11:06
You hear the pop and the bubbly poured over ice right out of the fountain? Yeah. What was that? Beautiful advertisement. Wow.
Speaker: 0
01:11:13
Long after the syrup ceased to contain a significant amounts of cocaine in North Carolina, dope remained a common colloquialism for Coca Cola, and dope wagons were trucks that transported it. Wow. Must have been good. It must have been real good. Must have been real good. Like, it just a little bit of a juice.
Speaker: 0
01:11:31
The kola nut, kola nuts for caffeine. Kola nut acts as a flavoring and the original source of caffeine, Coca Cola. Contains two to 3.5% caffeine and has a bitter flavor. In 1911, the US government sued The United States versus 40 barrels and 20 kegs of Coca Cola hoping to force the Coca Cola company to remove caffeine from its formula.
Speaker: 0
01:11:54
Interesting. That’s interesting. Court found the syrup when diluted as directed, will result in a beverage containing 1.21 grains, seventy eight point four milligrams of caffeine per eight fluid ounces. The case was decided in favor of Coca Cola Company at the district court, but subsequently in 1912, The US Pure Food and Drug Act was amended adding caffeine to the list of habit forming and deleterious substances, which must be listed on a product’s label.
Speaker: 0
01:12:26
In 1913, the case was appealed by the sixth circuit in Cincinnati where the ruling was affirmed, but then appealed again in nineteen sixties 1916 to the Supreme Court where the government effectively won as a new trial was ordered. The company then voluntarily reduced the amount of caffeine in its product. And the and ordered offered rather to pay the government’s legal cost to settle and avoid further litigation.
Speaker: 1
01:12:52
Wow. That was all
Speaker: 0
01:12:54
over caffeine. Seventy milligrams. Meh eight, and now it’s 46 per twelve. Yeah. But, like, what is a Red Bull?
Speaker: 1
01:13:01
I was gonna say, what’s in a Monster?
Speaker: 0
01:13:03
Right. Yeah. Right. Sai let’s let’s find out how much caffeine is in a Monster. One of the things that I don’t know if Monster does it, but some of these companies ai it. It’s kinda tricky. Ai the way, I sana Monster. I drink them all the time when I do the EOC. The the problem is it’ll sai, like, two servings. Who’s splitting a Monster with their friends? That’s fantastic.
Speaker: 0
01:13:23
It’s like, I’m drinking a can of you have some 86. 86. Per serving. Yeah. And how many servings are in a can of Monster?
Speaker: 0
01:13:31
Well, this is sai Per serving. Does it say it in a can? Ai, when you get a big old can. Man, just when I Googled it, it just said one serving. Sir. Because they have big cans. Yeah. There’s a Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:13:42
This
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01:13:42
is a jumbo ai.
Speaker: 0
01:13:43
I had a friend who was a Mormon, and he wasn’t allowed to drink coffee, and that motherfucker would pound energy drinks all day. I was like, hey, dude. What are you doing?
Speaker: 1
01:13:52
It’s a gray area in
Speaker: 0
01:13:53
the world. One forty. A monster is oh ai god. One forty for zero sugar. A regular monster has one sixty. One sixty. Mountain Dew Rise has one eighty. That’s incredible. Beyond Ram Lit. That is two fifty. Bang with 300. Five hour energy shots as 200? Holy shit, man.
Speaker: 0
01:14:20
Those little tiny energy shots, those five hour energy drinks has two hundred milligrams of caffeine? Wow. Bang has 300? Holy shit, man.
Speaker: 1
01:14:31
And Coca Cola led the vatsal. When was that? 1911
Speaker: 0
01:14:35
or something?
Speaker: 1
01:14:36
Something About caffeine. Yeah. The amount being in it.
Speaker: 0
01:14:40
Interest well, it’s ai people have always tried to control other people for whatever reason, especially when the government has the power to do it. For whatever reason, human beings really enjoy controlling other people. Yeah. They really do. And once they have power, they really enjoy exercising that power.
Speaker: 1
01:14:56
And keeping it and controlling it ai not giving it back. And you gotta you gotta you gotta resist.
Speaker: 0
01:15:02
Yeah. You do. Resist. You gotta resist. Yeah. But the problem is, like, legalizing these things would cause a a big problem. It’d be a big problem. If you just legalize them, there’s a lot of people that who would never try any illegal drug, who would try a legal drug. You know, if you made heroin, cocaine, you know, fill in the blank. All all the different substances, psychedelic and otherwise.
Speaker: 0
01:15:29
If you made them all legal, you’re gonna have a bunch of people that are gonna have problems with these things that wouldn’t have problems with them normally. So there there would be a period of time where there it would cause damage. And that would be really problematic for politicians, lawmakers, anybody who enforce these ai.
Speaker: 0
01:15:48
You know, they’d be blood is on your hands. It’s like but the this infidelization of human beings, like turning them into babies that need be need to be controlled by the state. That’s the problem. And we’re in this problem, and the only way to get out of that problem is to tear the fucking band aid off. And I completely agree with you.
Speaker: 0
01:16:08
And I don’t sana do cocaine. I’ve never done cocaine ai whole life. I’ve I saw when I was a kid in high school, I saw a bunch of people that had cocaine problems, and I was like, I don’t wanna have anything to do with that.
Speaker: 1
01:16:17
Right. Right. But listen, you made that decision for yourself.
Speaker: 0
01:16:20
Yeah.
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01:16:21
Right? And, and look, we know we we were just touching upon examples of people having a relationship with the coca plant without it causing an issue.
Speaker: 0
01:16:28
Yeah. I don’t think it’s that addictive when you’re just chewing the leaves.
Speaker: 1
01:16:32
Right.
Speaker: 0
01:16:33
I think those people do it without much problems. There’s also mate de coco, which is a tea that they make from the leaves. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:16:39
Well, look. We’re starting to talk about, we’re using the word legalization and sai saying there will be a problem with legal legalization for a time being. Why don’t we talk about decriminalization and regulation?
Speaker: 0
01:16:53
But the problem is even with decriminalization, what’s the supply? Where are people getting it from? Right. If you can’t sell it legally, then how how do I know it’s pure?
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01:17:02
That’s right.
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01:17:03
That’s the real issue. The real issue with cocaine is probably not cocaine itself. The real issue is getting cocaine that’s stepped on and cut and cut a lot of times with fentanyl. I mean, we all know people that have died from fentanyl overdoses. I know a bunch of people that have.
Speaker: 1
01:17:19
Yep. I I’ve done follow-up on police calls to people who said to me directly, I was trying to get coke. I got fentanyl and almost died. That’s a tragedy. But but but but, Joe, you’re jumping to this next, idea that we should probably explore, which is called, safe ai. Yeah. And who should control safe ai?
Speaker: 1
01:17:39
But let me remind our audience and let me bring this back into the conversation. Our police promotional books we’re not we’re not we’re not talking radical here. Our police promotion books talk about the problem with prohibition and criminalization, unleashing gangsters and dangerous supply on our civilians.
Speaker: 0
01:18:00
And that’s where the cartels come into
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01:18:02
play. Exactly.
Speaker: 0
01:18:03
Look. When we were kids, the cartels weren’t an issue. That’s right. Do you ever remember any talk of the how old
Speaker: 1
01:18:08
are you? I’m 48. I grew up in Chelsea, Mass.
Speaker: 0
01:18:11
I’m almost 58. I I grew up in Newton. I didn’t ever hear about cartels. That’s right. You never heard about Mexican cartels. You never heard about the problem. Now it’s, like, all over the news. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:18:21
It’s a
Speaker: 0
01:18:21
big thing.
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01:18:22
Right.
Speaker: 0
01:18:22
Why is it a big thing? Because they control the drug supply into The United States because drugs are are illegal. So only outlaws sell drugs.
Speaker: 1
01:18:30
And what happens with value when you make something illegal?
Speaker: 0
01:18:33
Yeah. Shoots through the roof. That’s
Speaker: 1
01:18:36
right. And the most violent come in and replace the less ai.
Speaker: 0
01:18:41
Exactly.
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01:18:42
You know?
Speaker: 0
01:18:42
Just like during Prohibition when the mob took over.
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01:18:45
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:18:45
That’s how they gained power. That’s how they got money.
Speaker: 1
01:18:47
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:18:47
Ai were selling alcohol.
Speaker: 1
01:18:48
And what so what’s safe supply or Yeah. Or arya safe use room? I would purport to say that a bar is a safe use room Yeah. Where you can get safe supply.
Speaker: 0
01:18:57
Right. Yeah. Right. You know you’re getting actual real alcohol. That’s it.
Speaker: 1
01:19:00
And how about we incorporate treating adults like adults? Yeah. Powerful education and decide who’s gonna control safe supply because right now, the most dangerous people on earth control it.
Speaker: 0
01:19:14
Yes. And I think education, what you just said is a huge part of it. And to let people understand, like, meh. Everyone knows there’s giant problems with alcohol use. There’s alcoholism, there’s liver failure, there’s a host of different diseases that come from being an alcoholic, and then there’s also operating motor vehicles when you’re drunk, and drunk driving kills a ton of people every year, and also a bunch of violent acts that get perpetrated by people that are drunk.
Speaker: 0
01:19:42
There’s a lot of things wrong with alcohol, but yet we allow alcohol, you know. And alcohol is one of the worst drugs. It’s one of the worst drugs for you physically. Yep. It’s one of the only drugs that if you become addicted to it, you can’t quit cold turkey or you’ll fucking die.
Speaker: 1
01:19:58
That’s right. Right then and there. Yeah. Exactly. So working with this logic, Joe. Right? Because people sometimes make me out to be out of my mind when I say this stuff.
Speaker: 0
01:20:07
Of course.
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01:20:07
If the most dangerous, toxic, and carcinogenic is available, and the least dangerous, helpful, nonaddictive is not available, Let’s fix that. Yeah. Why do I sound wild when I say that?
Speaker: 0
01:20:21
Yeah. Well, I think the mushroom one is the easiest one because of the the fact that it genuinely can’t kill people. Cocaine is a lot harder sell. Because also, like, I don’t necessarily think it’s good for you. But I know people that have done pure cocaine that really enjoyed the experience and didn’t get addicted to it. So I don’t I don’t I can’t speak on that.
Speaker: 0
01:20:44
I just I just think that things that are physically addictive that have been known to ruin your life are things you should probably avoid.
Speaker: 1
01:20:51
And we can teach upon that. Yes. And we can educate upon that. I mean, look at the the the wonderful job we’ve done at, kind of putting the reins on nicotine. Through advertisement and education.
Speaker: 0
01:21:03
Well, cigarette smoking in particular
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01:21:04
Right.
Speaker: 0
01:21:05
Because the problem isn’t really the nicotine, which we’ve found to be That’s right. Yeah. It’s like nicotine actually has health benefits to it, which sounds crazy to people. It’s it’s neuroprotectant that it it it actually stopped people from getting COVID. Sai there’s a lot of weird stuff with the compound nicotine.
Speaker: 1
01:21:22
Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:21:23
But then there’s the delivery meh. And it’s not even just, ai, it’s hard to know what’s true or what’s not true, but I’m sure you saw that, Russell Crowe movie, The Insider.
Speaker: 1
01:21:33
I haven’t. It’s a
Speaker: 0
01:21:34
great movie, but it’s about these companies that added chemicals to cigarettes to make them far more addictive. And he was a whistleblower. He was a chemist that was working at this company. Russell Crowe was playing this doctor who was a real guy whose life was threatened because he exposed that these companies had put a bunch of different chemicals into cigarettes to make them highly addictive, much more addictive than just plain regular tobacco smoking.
Speaker: 1
01:22:04
Well, it, I was told that the those scientists were absorbed into the food industry.
Speaker: 0
01:22:11
Yeah. Well, that’s the problem is that the the companies that were getting sued after it was determined that cigarette smoking does cause cancer, cigarettes are addictive. Once they lost a bunch of money, they went out and bought all the processed food companies. And now they made those more addictive.
Speaker: 0
01:22:29
And so now, like, you know, they even openly flaunted. I bet you can’t eat one chip. That’s right.
Speaker: 1
01:22:35
That’s right. Try it.
Speaker: 0
01:22:35
I bet you can’t eat it.
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01:22:36
Ai. Open a bag of Doritos. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:22:38
Ai mean, that’s the the thing. And again, I think you should be able to eat Doritos. I like them. They’re delicious.
Speaker: 1
01:22:43
Sai. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:22:43
Nothing wrong with them. But they are addictive. And why are they addictive? Because they’re they’re chemically designed to be addictive.
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01:22:50
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:22:50
Because these food manufacturing companies want you to buy more of them. Simple. It’s ai, how do we get people to eat more chips? Make the chips impossible to put down or very difficult to put down.
Speaker: 1
01:23:00
And if you sana increase their value through the roof, prohibit access after they’ve tasted them
Speaker: 0
01:23:06
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:23:06
And let the cartels produce them in another country Yeah. And try to get them across
Speaker: 0
01:23:13
Ai is so crazy. What an image. Imagine if they outlawed all processed foods and you had to get fucking contraband Twinkies, like Ai? Good lord. Right? Ai, yeah. Sai think you should be able to buy ring dings. It’s they should be legal. But I I wouldn’t recommend eating them every day. They’re fucking terrible for you.
Speaker: 1
01:23:32
Exactly. But
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01:23:32
they taste delicious. Exactly. If you want one every now and again
Speaker: 1
01:23:35
And that’s the environment that we’re in
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01:23:37
Yes.
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01:23:37
With some things and not others.
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01:23:40
Right.
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01:23:40
Right.
Speaker: 0
01:23:41
And that’s the problem. It’s illogical. It’s illogical and there’s also this fear aspect to it because if you go against it, you know, you’re gonna get put into a very bad position where there’s people with enormous power and influence that wanna silence you. And this is why guys like Rick Doblin are so courageous, like, because he spent, like, his entire life trying to do this the right way and doing it above board, by the books, and and show through the use with police officers and military people and That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:24:15
People experiencing PTSD that ai, this has extreme beneficial aspects to it that you shouldn’t ignore, and they’re good for ai. And we should probably expand the use of them in an appropriate way.
Speaker: 1
01:24:27
That’s right. I think that his work is leading to one of the first big kinks in the armor of the system. And you speak to the value of the way that he did it. You know what I mean? Yeah. What are the rules? Tell me we’ll operate within them.
Speaker: 1
01:24:44
What kind of data do I have to create? Well, let me make that data. How do I access the compound? How are you gonna let me? Right. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:24:51
And if we don’t know how, we need the rules. Right. And sometimes the rules weren’t there. And Rick and Maps had to push. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:24:59
And in our system, how do we battle? What’s the appropriate way to unleash violence? It’s with lawyers. Yep. Right? It’s frowned upon to physically physically be violent.
Speaker: 1
01:25:08
Sai he had to ai. He had to fight with the government. And what really makes me nuts, Joe, is, you know, the amount of back and forth again Ai heard that they did with the FDA, with the regulators. They knew what they were doing, the design of the process. Everything was being talked about. Right? And they get a, let’s wait.
Speaker: 0
01:25:31
It’s interesting that the results were too good.
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01:25:34
You know? I mean, just from the ones I hold in my heart.
Speaker: 0
01:25:38
Yeah. So what do you what kind of pressure do you think they’re under to not allow these things? Like because that’s the question. Like, what is it? Is it public social pressure? Because if they do pass this, then they’ll be scrutinized ai people that are ignorant and that have bought into the narrative will then look at them as, like, you’re part of the problem.
Speaker: 0
01:25:57
You’re contributing to the deterioration of society by allowing this use of MDMA to push forward and and and by minimizing the risks of it, by talking about the benefits of it, you’re essentially allowing people to think that it’s a lot safer than it really is.
Speaker: 1
01:26:16
Look, I think that’s That’s a paradigm. Sai think that’s a that’s a component. Right? We’re talking about public perception
Speaker: 0
01:26:22
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:26:22
And that changing and then that pressuring and things changing as well. Yeah. I think this is a paradigm changing and shifting thing that the entire system, including pharma and all these people that are on these boards, these decision makers, power brokers, right, are are are trying to make sense of.
Speaker: 1
01:26:40
And I’ll explain. We have sai identified disorder or challenge. We have a medicine that masks that symptom. This is gonna allow people to truly heal. When you truly heal, you don’t have to keep taking a medicine. You might have to come back to it periodically.
Speaker: 0
01:27:01
Sure.
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01:27:01
Let’s call that a flare up. Yeah. Let’s call it a touch up. But when you’re not taking your pill every day Yeah. Every other day, that’s gonna be a big hit Yeah. To people’s power and money.
Speaker: 0
01:27:14
Right. Especially when you deal with things like there’s a giant business in keeping people, I don’t sana say happy, but not depressed. Mhmm. Right? Like, there’s a a ai industry in people that are on SSRIs and anti depression and anti anxiety meh. Yeah. When it’s been proven that exercise is far more effective than SSRIs are. Far more medically proven, statistically proven that SSRIs are not as effective as regular exercise.
Speaker: 1
01:27:47
Well, let me throw something in there. Is that a medicine?
Speaker: 0
01:27:50
Right. Yeah. Oh, exercise is definitely a medicine.
Speaker: 1
01:27:52
Right. So there’s an organization, I think, it’s called exercise as medic a medicine.
Speaker: 0
01:27:57
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:27:57
But, you you a mainstream medical doctor gonna be able to prescribe exercise to somebody? They can’t.
Speaker: 0
01:28:04
They should be able to.
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01:28:05
They should be able to.
Speaker: 0
01:28:06
Yeah. They really should. But the problem is there’s no profit in that. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:28:10
Unless you’re
Speaker: 0
01:28:10
on the gym.
Speaker: 1
01:28:11
Ai, do it on your do it on your own. Right. Join the gym yourself, and you you know half the people aren’t gonna go because they’re scared.
Speaker: 0
01:28:17
Right.
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01:28:17
They don’t wanna look goofy.
Speaker: 0
01:28:19
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:28:20
The the the other quarter who do go might not appropriate approach it correctly. Right. Blow out of ten themselves. Hurt themselves.
Speaker: 0
01:28:27
Yeah. You need trainers.
Speaker: 1
01:28:28
Right? Yeah. It’s a really interesting thing here. So so back to back to your question. This is gonna be a paradigm shifting thing. I believe that psychedelic assisted talk therapy is gonna allow talk therapy to live up to its promise as a talking cure. I believe the psychedelics are gonna be able to cure or push into remission a lot of these unshakable challenges, and that’s gonna be a big hit to the SSRIs.
Speaker: 1
01:28:56
That’s gonna be a big hit to certain medicines. You know what else I think it’s gonna do? I think it’s gonna move people from agnosticism or atheism towards religion and spirituality, and it’s also gonna be a boon for for religion. And Which is ai.
Speaker: 0
01:29:16
Spiritually. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:29:17
Wild. Yeah. Wild.
Speaker: 0
01:29:20
Have you ever heard of, John Marco Allegro’s book, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross? No. It’s a book that he wrote after he he was one of the people that was, he was contracted to decipher the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was ai a fourteen year job where they were deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls, and he was the only one on the committee that was agnostic.
Speaker: 0
01:29:42
He was an ordained minister, but through his studying of theology, he started becoming agnostic because he he recognized that there’s just too many religions and too many parallels and, like, what what’s the real religion and root of this all? Or or origin rather and root of this all.
Speaker: 0
01:29:57
So he wrote this book after fourteen years where he I’m gonna sort of paraphrase, but he thought that the entire Christian religion was based on the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms and fertility rituals, and that this was what it was all about. And I believe the book ai I’ve said this before and I need to know it’s true. Was the book bought up by the Catholic church?
Speaker: 0
01:30:21
I think it was bought up by the Catholic church, and they stopped production of it. And then, he released a new book called The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Meh, and that one was available. But then, since then, they’ve republished, Both of them? Yeah. Both of them. But the big one was The Sacred Mushroom in the Cross because that was the one that was kinda very difficult to get.
Speaker: 0
01:30:42
And I have a couple copies of it, but they’re original copies that I had to buy online.
Speaker: 1
01:30:46
Okay. Okay.
Speaker: 0
01:30:47
And it’s a fascinating book.
Speaker: 1
01:30:48
That out for sure.
Speaker: 0
01:30:49
It’s a fascinating book because he translates or he, he he breaks down the word Christ to an ancient Sumerian word, which was a mushroom covered in God’s semen. And this is what he’s saying, is that they thought that when it rained, that this was God, his semen on the earth, which has caused all life to to to rise from.
Speaker: 0
01:31:17
We all need light we all need water, and then plants, of course, need water. And then after rainfall, they would find these mushrooms. Mhmm. Because mushrooms grow incredibly quickly and they would consume these mushrooms and have these religious experiences.
Speaker: 1
01:31:30
Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:31:31
And this was a hugely controversial book, of course, and to to really be able to know if he’s right or wrong, you would have to have a deep understanding of ancient languages and and the ai and and so many different things.
Speaker: 1
01:31:45
Well, you know what that brings up in me, Joe, is the sacredness of sexuality. One, I don’t know why that what you just said triggered that in me. And the other is what about every Sunday magically transmuting bread and wine into flesh and blood of God. Right? This isn’t a radical concept. This is this is accepted.
Speaker: 1
01:32:08
This is, like, a a billion followers strong, right, type type of Christianity that is through sacred ritual transforming food into the body and blood of God. Right. Right? Just because we can understand that this is wood and a table and we’ve labeled it and boxed it and analyzed it doesn’t mean that the mystery of it all has been stripped away.
Speaker: 1
01:32:35
And I don’t think we need to allow that process to happen. Right? This is a magical mysterious experience. When we’re staring at one another, just because we identify as human beings, do we really know what’s happening? Or is that ego inflation and science trying to dumb down a mystery and a magic?
Speaker: 0
01:33:00
Well, it’s all a mystery. Right? We’ve become accustomed to the mystery, so it seems normal. But, you know, if you didn’t exist on Earth and Earth was a drug that you could take, we could experience life on Earth, like, this is crazy.
Speaker: 1
01:33:13
It absolutely is wild.
Speaker: 0
01:33:14
Being a human being, interacting with people, looking at things through your eyes
Speaker: 1
01:33:18
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:33:19
Hearing things through your ears, touching and feeling, smelling, and using all your senses and navigating through this bizarre experience of ai. Very weird.
Speaker: 1
01:33:28
And what about that image of the ouroboros? Right? The snake or dragon eating vatsal? Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:33:34
I
Speaker: 1
01:33:34
mean, let’s talk about sacred sexuality and the fact that every living thing is in a system that’s eating and birthing itself continuously in all directions.
Speaker: 0
01:33:43
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:33:44
How do you wrap your mind around that?
Speaker: 0
01:33:46
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:33:46
You know, I got a big sense of that when I went into old growth rain forest in Costa Rica for the first ai, And I touched, like, the handle of a bridge, and it felt like it was moving because, like, every drop of everything is ai, and everything is either competing, going along with and helping, supporting, or eating one another in that speak. And it’s ai, what is happening in here?
Speaker: 0
01:34:08
It’s like Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:34:09
Everything is alive. Yeah. You know? And I had that type of an experience on psychedelics in the religious context, psilocybin. I I felt like I dropped into the collective conscience, and I got to see the partition section that was my psychic space where all my complexes and traumas were pulsing energetically into one another, and how that energy was spilling over on my family and community.
Speaker: 1
01:34:35
That was the access that was given to me through psilocybin, you know? And those energetic forces are pushing me around right now as we speak.
Speaker: 0
01:34:45
Which makes you think, like, if you were an ancient person and you had this experience, of course, you would think you’re communing with God.
Speaker: 1
01:34:52
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And look, I we’re all ancient persons right now in this moment in time, and I believe that.
Speaker: 0
01:35:00
Yeah. Well, we are ancient and, you know, if you go five thousand years from now, how they’re gonna look at us. Ai, these dorks. Look, that’s probably shit that was illegal.
Speaker: 1
01:35:09
Ai and arguing about Oh, yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:35:10
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:35:11
Yeah. Yeah. I can’t wait till war is old technology that we all laugh about.
Speaker: 0
01:35:16
Yeah. God. Isn’t that a crazy thing that if you asked a person, is it possible in your lifetime for war to not exist? Most people would be ai, there’s no way, which is insane.
Speaker: 1
01:35:26
It’s so insane.
Speaker: 0
01:35:27
Because in small groups, it’s clearly easy. Like, if it was just you, meh, and Jamie, and we were the only people on Earth, it would be super easy to not go to war with each other.
Speaker: 1
01:35:35
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:35:35
We just communicate. Mhmm. But then you’re dealing with different languages and control of resources, and then you have people that are leaders that have control over giant groups of people and then use propaganda
Speaker: 1
01:35:47
Manipulation. Sana
Speaker: 0
01:35:48
yeah. And manipulate them into thinking that the only way is we have to go over there and kill these people.
Speaker: 1
01:35:52
Exactly.
Speaker: 0
01:35:53
That’s the only way to fight for your freedom.
Speaker: 1
01:35:55
Yep. Yep. And, Joe, you know when, we there’s research out there that shows that for a period of time, our species ended up having something like 5,000 of us on Earth. It’s it’s it’s out there. Right? Have you seen research?
Speaker: 0
01:36:11
Few moments in history. Ai. The Toba Volcano. And Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:36:15
How did how did we survive that? Did we eat each other or hurt each other? We probably helped each other.
Speaker: 0
01:36:21
Yeah. Right? Well, there was probably so few people they had to. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Well, this this is the also the point of Allegro’s work that fertility rituals were important because people didn’t really survive much. You know, it was very difficult ai just labor, just childbirth killed a lot of women, killed a lot of babies. Infections killed a lot of people.
Speaker: 0
01:36:43
You break your leg, you’re dead. There’s a lot of things that cause people to ai. So it was very important to have as many children as possible because most of them weren’t gonna live.
Speaker: 1
01:36:51
That’s right. That’s right. And you bring up a point the woman might not have made it through Yeah. The with the process itself. Yeah. And what an important process Yeah. For for the overall species well-being.
Speaker: 0
01:37:02
You you have the most critical of all processes, and that’s been reduced to a thing now that’s, like, trivialized.
Speaker: 1
01:37:09
Trivialized or even still taboo.
Speaker: 0
01:37:11
Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It’s kinda crazy. I mean, there’s people out there that love people that don’t wanna have children. I’m like, okay. Why wouldn’t sana bring a child in this world? Like, yeah. Why would you with all the books and medicine and shah? Like Nicely said. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:37:24
Like, people had people people gave birth when they didn’t know what a door was. They hadn’t figured out floors meh, you know. It’s ai, we we’re constantly in this process of evolving and changing and growing, but it just gets stifled by so many different aspects of civilization, so many different aspects of control and propaganda and manipulation and and fear.
Speaker: 0
01:37:45
And fear. The fear of others.
Speaker: 1
01:37:47
And fear. I mean, look at what’s happening with our life expectancy, like you said, and and and, good medicine keeping people alive. Yeah. And, we’re living to be 80, 90 years old.
Speaker: 0
01:38:00
And hopefully, if you live to be 80 or 90 years old, you’d be wiser.
Speaker: 1
01:38:04
Hopefully. Right. Hopefully. Right.
Speaker: 0
01:38:06
Hopefully, you’ll get more of an understanding of, like, what you’ve done wrong and, like, why have you why have I lived my life in this foolish way? Like, what can I do to correct that? What can I do to make a more positive impact on people around me and live my life in a more harmonious way?
Speaker: 0
01:38:20
But, you know, some people, they’re 80 years old, they just watch Fox News and yell at the TV. You know,
Speaker: 1
01:38:26
they they right? The image that went through my head is somebody turning the TV off. Yeah. Maybe picking up a book. Yeah. And then, you know, there’s a choice point here, Joe, where you can you sometimes it’s hard because there’s things in the psyche that are manipulating what you’re focusing on.
Speaker: 1
01:38:42
Yeah. Traumas plus external factors. But if you start focusing on gratitude, if you start focusing on the beauty, if you start focusing on the benefits of science, the benefits of operating in communion with other human beings Yeah. That thing that we sai. I mean, how many people in Manhattan, right, every day waking up, they go to work, they go home. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:39:04
There’s a handful of problems, but that’s not how it’s presented. Yeah. It’s miraculous if you think about it.
Speaker: 0
01:39:10
It is. Ai? The amount of negative interactions that people have are incredibly small. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:39:16
I
Speaker: 0
01:39:16
mean, think about the sheer number of humans.
Speaker: 1
01:39:18
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:39:19
Yeah. That’s right. Meh, we we concentrate on this the fear.
Speaker: 1
01:39:22
Exactly.
Speaker: 0
01:39:23
We concentrate on the dangers.
Speaker: 1
01:39:24
And the media zooms in on
Speaker: 0
01:39:26
Of course.
Speaker: 1
01:39:26
Someone who doesn’t have a house Meh. Someone who has an addiction problem Uh-huh. Someone who’s violent. Someone who’s violent.
Speaker: 0
01:39:33
Someone who’s a criminal.
Speaker: 1
01:39:34
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:39:34
Someone stealing.
Speaker: 1
01:39:36
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:39:36
That’s all you hear.
Speaker: 1
01:39:37
That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. I heard, a statistic, that the military knows about two percent of people are sociopathic or psychopathic. They don’t have that same conscience that we automatically assume a human has. Right.
Speaker: 0
01:39:52
I don’t have any empathy.
Speaker: 1
01:39:53
Ai?
Speaker: 0
01:39:53
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:39:55
And it seems to me that we’re so fear based that we built the outer ecology that people have access to around concerns related to that. We build the mainstream culture, the laws that we operate under out of concern for the 2% rather than celebration of the 98% Yeah. That do care, that do feel empathy, that do
Speaker: 0
01:40:24
Vatsal and that is the problem with the algorithm. That’s the problem with social media, and that’s the problem with this addiction to devices that you are constantly being inundated with the negative. Yeah. You’re constantly interacting with the worst aspects of life on Earth and not appreciating all the good that’s around you all the time.
Speaker: 1
01:40:42
That’s right. Yeah. And the algorithm, Joe, ai, you brought up so so eloquently, it it it takes you down the path that you click towards. Mhmm. You know? And I recall intentionally starting to click things outside of my comfort zone and follow thinkers and presenters not within my bubble, and that’s what it starts filling with
Speaker: 0
01:41:06
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:41:07
As well. You know?
Speaker: 0
01:41:08
Oh, yeah. You certainly can do that if you curate a good feed. You know, you you and you can ignore the negative and there’s a lot of great stuff. One of the great things about social media is just the access to new and fascinating information. You’re you’re constantly if you do follow the right people and do go down the right roads, you’ll be constantly inundated with fascinating information.
Speaker: 1
01:41:31
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:41:31
New discoveries, the James Webb Telescope, and the new things that people are learning about quantum physics and all all these different fascinating things that can enrich your mind Right. And expand your understanding of the world that we live in instead of dwelling all on all the negative aspects of human civilization.
Speaker: 1
01:41:50
Right. Right. And that kinda speaks to the fact that we are lucky to be able to have have access to social media in that way. Yeah. There’s nations that don’t allow that type of access Right. By design. Yeah. Right? So the power the power of our method is liberty and freedom. Yes. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:42:08
Not criminalization and prohibition. Right. So you see the jump I’m trying to make there.
Speaker: 0
01:42:13
And the jump also is what you were talking about before with education. And I think we need education too with people in social media use. People need to be kind of coached and understand how to use it, how to use it correctly.
Speaker: 1
01:42:26
Right.
Speaker: 0
01:42:26
And, you know, I’ve been trying to express to as many people as I can, especially people in the public ai, don’t read comments. You gotta stop doing that. Just don’t read things about you. Don’t read negative things about you. It’s bad for you. Yeah. It’s bad for you and also you’re dealing with the the percentage of people that are commenting negative things. Those people almost entirely live lives that you would not envy.
Speaker: 0
01:42:51
Nicely said. They’re almost all a mess.
Speaker: 1
01:42:54
That’s right.
Speaker: 0
01:42:54
And so you’re interacting with the I don’t wanna say the worst aspects of society, but the most troubled human beings. The the people that are thinking in the most ridiculous way, they’re they’re constantly focusing on negative aspects of either human beings or of society in general Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:43:13
Or and they’re feeding off of it. And that that’s their focus all day long, and they spend most of their time arguing with people online. Yeah. Do you sana be involved in that? Like, that is sai when we live in what is primarily a beautiful world.
Speaker: 1
01:43:27
Nicely said. Yeah. And, I think you’re pointing at, something that’s important to keep in mind is be careful about what you let in. Yes. Right?
Speaker: 0
01:43:36
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:43:36
I think that’s ai a that’s a universal principle, but it’s eloquently shared in Buddhism where they say guard your Dharma gates. Right? Your eyes. Yeah. You know, your mind. Right? Your senses. What are you taking in?
Speaker: 0
01:43:50
Yes.
Speaker: 1
01:43:51
Because, you know, there’s other philosophies that say thoughts arya things. Be careful what you think. Mhmm. You know? Yeah. And I’ve I’ve come to notice, let’s call it the CBT triangle, cognitive behavioral therapy or theory triangle. Right? Thoughts lead to emotions, lead to actions. Ai?
Speaker: 1
01:44:11
Because of psychedelic work, Ai able to see how a thought actually is a portal that allows a certain energetic flow into you, and that affects you, and that can manifest in reality out of you.
Speaker: 0
01:44:26
As a therapist, how have you incorporated this in everyday life with your patients?
Speaker: 1
01:44:32
Two things come to mind when you ask that question. It’s made me more empathetic because I’ve had direct access, direct experience of some of these theories you read about or have a teacher as the expert tell you about, I’ve had direct access to. The second is Ai able to share with people when they come to me being pulled towards experiencing these things, ideas around harm reduction, where to go. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:45:02
There’s legal states. There’s less legal states. I can talk to them about the substances. Right? I’m not ai, but if you come to talk to me, I can listen.
Speaker: 1
01:45:14
Yeah. See what I’m saying? Yeah. And I know from direct experience some things. Right. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:45:22
I’m also able to fight off fear, and I can go into these territories with people. Therapy, therapists need to know that themselves. You don’t wanna step outside of what your the lanes that you’re comfortable being in. Right? If you’re not comfortable being in a certain lane, you gotta go get training, training and experience to be an ethical practitioner before you talk about something. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:45:44
And I’ve gotten that experience. It’s never ending. I’m not done. I’m just in my process of awakening. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:45:51
And I can share from that reference point, you know, as a therapist. That was that was your question. Right. Right? That’s how I think I can help people.
Speaker: 1
01:45:58
I’m more empathetic. You come in and wanna talk to me about a particular substance. I have a little bit of a lived experience knowledge base I can share with you. And legally, I’m allowed to talk harm reduction. Yeah. Right? I can’t prescribe.
Speaker: 1
01:46:13
I’m not gonna tell you to do something illegal. Right. But if you wanna talk to me about it, I know a thing or two. Mhmm. Not everything.
Speaker: 1
01:46:21
Just a thing or two.
Speaker: 0
01:46:22
I think one of the best arguments against decriminalization is what happened Ai that went down this path of pure legalization.
Speaker: 1
01:46:37
Ai. Everything. Yeah. Decriminalized everything.
Speaker: 0
01:46:40
And it went sideways. Mhmm. And I think it was probably because the culture that had already been firmly established in that place condoned
Speaker: 1
01:46:52
open air drug markets, people that were addicted to
Speaker: 0
01:46:52
fentanyl and opiates out on the street and methamphetamines out on the street, using them constantly, no education, and then they just sort of open the doors for everything. And then people went there specifically because they could do these things.
Speaker: 1
01:47:12
And be that on the streets.
Speaker: 0
01:47:13
And also be Yeah. Subsidized.
Speaker: 1
01:47:16
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let let me bring some, some things up about that. So, you know, I believe in decriminalization, but there’s a right and a not so right way to do something. Right? And I’m gonna use examples of laws we already have on the book. This might not be a popular statement, but it’s my truth.
Speaker: 1
01:47:36
If you say you’re gonna decriminalize, you can look at the way we handle alcohol. We don’t allow public drunkenness. We don’t have to allow it. A lot of places say you can’t walk around and be inebriated and open bottled drink, even the most liberal places. Right? A cop can come up.
Speaker: 1
01:47:53
They can protective custody you into a cage, or they can help you get home. Right? Why don’t those rules apply? If you’re in public, we can say we’re not gonna want you to use openly in public.
Speaker: 0
01:48:10
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:48:10
You know?
Speaker: 0
01:48:11
But when you’ve already got people openly camping out on the streets and littering everywhere and, like, what they’ve already allowed, unfortunately, they need to clean that up first before they can say we’re gonna decriminalize ai. Because you’ve already allowed people to do something that, you know, publicly is frowned upon to just, like, be shitting on the street and to to to, you know, open drug use everywhere.
Speaker: 0
01:48:37
Right. Have people camped out, homeless people, like, covering up sidewalks where you can’t get around, and there’s needles everywhere, and it’s ai garbage everywhere.
Speaker: 1
01:48:46
Well, we can agree that we don’t want that. And in many places, like, there’s local ordinances against that. There’s state level laws against that, and we can go all the way up. There’s federal level laws.
Speaker: 0
01:48:57
Doing anything about that.
Speaker: 1
01:48:58
Well, that’s the thing we can analyze. Yeah. Why why wasn’t the funding in place to ensure that public areas with public access followed some rules? Why? What happened? You know? I think that can be figured out. Yeah. Right? So we we ai that if we say full scale decriminalization, anything goes, doesn’t work, I would have told you right from the beginning. Well, that’s ai of freaky.
Speaker: 1
01:49:26
Why are we going that far? Why don’t we have any funding to help people and tell them, no. You can’t take a shit over there.
Speaker: 0
01:49:33
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:49:33
Yeah. Have to take a shit over here. We can all agree. We don’t want human feces over here.
Speaker: 0
01:49:39
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:49:39
Right? That that that’s not a shot against that person. We gotta figure out what’s going on. Why are they pooping over there, not in the porta potty over here? Or how about have a location where those people can go that isn’t a prison Right. Where we have wraparound services, where we have maybe access to what they need, maybe access to what they’re addicted to. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:50:01
Now we’re starting to talk about safe supply with care and medical intervention.
Speaker: 0
01:50:06
Yeah. There’s no one’s ever done that successfully, though. Right? Like, is any state ever incorporated some sort of successful program where they gave people safe supply and then counseling and got, like, a percentage of them off drugs and healthy?
Speaker: 1
01:50:22
So I’ve heard that Canada is exploring the medical access of medical grade heroin for certain people. And we know that certain countries for years at this point have safe injection facilities where people can come to use their drugs under care and consideration and then leave.
Speaker: 1
01:50:41
We we know these things work, but they’ve gotta be curated properly.
Speaker: 0
01:50:46
Yeah. When you also can’t impose it on all the rest of society by allowing people to just camp out everywhere on the streets.
Speaker: 1
01:50:53
Well, that’s the example that right? Like, we can have rules Yeah. Local ordinances that say we we this isn’t a campground. Yeah. Right? Right. And what do you need for this not to be a campground? Let’s talk. Come talk in this building over here.
Speaker: 0
01:51:07
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:51:08
Right? We can even figure out what kind well, I mean, what’s that gonna cost? We can figure that out. And why isn’t it being funded? Right? And why aren’t the police properly funded to act in a guardianship way in those situations? Right? Yeah. Because look look. Our efforts go in the direction that our funding goes because people build their lives around that. And if funding is 90% on enforcement, then that’s what you’re gonna get.
Speaker: 1
01:51:40
Right? Right. And we talked about the problems and how hurtful defund was. How about properly funding law enforcement to work in a guardianship paradigm for these situations that aren’t necessarily criminal. They might be public health. Now you’re keeping the cops involved.
Speaker: 1
01:52:00
Right. Right? You’re not saying we’re gonna defund you. We don’t need you. We do need you. You play a vital role in our society.
Speaker: 0
01:52:07
But that would require, like, a fundamental shift to progressive ai. They’d have to, like, change the way they view cops.
Speaker: 1
01:52:15
Maybe that’ll have to be incorporated in drips and drabs and carefully into training. Right? Yeah. But I got an example for you.
Speaker: 0
01:52:22
Okay.
Speaker: 1
01:52:23
I got an example for you. I think it’s really important. It’s from where I come. Right? In Winthrop, Massachusetts Winthrop, Massachusetts meh years ago, when I was a patrol officer sana I kept coming in seeing public health issues in the police logs and police incidents, public health issue, mental health challenge, a person not having access to their ai, running out of their medicine, overdose sai, overdose lost tragically, over and over and over again.
Speaker: 1
01:52:48
Sai ai talk to the police chief. I said his name’s Terrence Delahanty. I said, chief, on patrol when I’m in, will you let me make a pile of work? Let’s call it cases to investigate because I think I have a detective fetish. I’ve never been a detective, but I wanted to investigate things too.
Speaker: 1
01:53:06
He’s like, then what are you gonna do with that pile? I sai, I’m gonna follow-up in police uniform, patrol car. I’m gonna go knock on sana dorm, have a conversation with somebody, see what they really need to prevent that 911 call for service. He’s on record saying he thought I was gonna bang my head up against the wall.
Speaker: 1
01:53:23
He’s like, there’s no one’s gonna talk to this kid in full uniform, but he was so excited I had to let him try. Two, three weeks later, I come back. I said, chief, I got a problem. People are inviting me into their house, telling me to sit down, calling somebody down, who’s telling me that they were looking for cocaine, got fentanyl.
Speaker: 1
01:53:39
We have a good problem. I gotta connect these people to their appropriate help. You know what he said to me? He sai, connect them to the public health department. There’s a woman in there.
Speaker: 1
01:53:49
Her name is Meredith Hurley, and she’s brought in people with lived and living experience with challenges related to intoxicating substances, who are open about it to help with the overdose crisis. Bang. Public safety connected with public health. We created what I call the public, the police to public health pipeline. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:54:13
Picture this, a cop showing up to your house because they know what’s going on in your house. Called 911, and you told us without us even coercing you and saying, Joe, what’s going on? What do you need? What do you need to be well? We don’t want you to die. Talk to us. We’re not gonna use it against you. I’m actually not gonna run you because I’m playing this distinct role.
Speaker: 1
01:54:40
I’m not gonna run you. I don’t wanna know if there’s any outstanding warrants. I’m not here I’m not here to snoop around to find something that I’m gonna be able to charge you with. I’m here to see what you need to not die and not have my detective show up and put you in a cage.
Speaker: 1
01:54:56
That started in Winthrop over ten years ago. It’s called CLEAR, Community and Law Enforcement Assisted Recovery.
Speaker: 0
01:55:06
Well, that’s hopeful. You just gotta expand something like that.
Speaker: 1
01:55:10
I think we have room to expand it across the whole country. We are repositories. Police departments are repositories of information on human suffering. You know what we’re doing with that? If it’s not traditional enforcement based policing to make cases for court, nothing. That’s not right.
Speaker: 0
01:55:34
So it’s the way it’s approached. It’s the way these problems are approached, and that they need new solutions. Solutions that are preventative and that enforce the sense of community and help law enforcement officers ingratiate themselves with these people and be a part of the community instead of just being a person who comes to lock them up.
Speaker: 1
01:55:57
There it is. You know what that is? That’s community policing. We call it recovery oriented community policing. Right? Now let me plug something else in that I think is a sophisticated important point that people people gotta keep in mind. This isn’t an attack on traditional enforcement type of policing. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:56:26
If you are sensitive to human nature, you know there’s gonna be violations of the type that needs somebody to show up and take a person out of their house in cuffs, put them in a jail cell, and take them to court. Unfortunately, the dark side is a part of human nature, and that type of policing done right is important, and it keeps us well.
Speaker: 1
01:56:48
But when it’s the only type of policing, we’re missing something. We’re missing something important and speak. And our people are expecting our officers to show up and put a hand out, a hand a helping hand and say, we know what’s going on, and we want you to be well. We don’t want you to die. We don’t want you to be in a cage, human being in a cage.
Speaker: 1
01:57:12
I think it is fundamentally law enforcement’s role to do that. This and that.
Speaker: 0
01:57:22
Yeah. Well said. It might be a good way to end this. Tell people how they can get ahold of you, social media, like, where you are. Sure.
Speaker: 1
01:57:32
I appreciate that. Well, they can look up my name, Sarco Gergariana. I’m out of Winthrop, Massachusetts.
Speaker: 0
01:57:37
Last name because they’re not gonna be able to get that right. Sure.
Speaker: 1
01:57:40
It’s g e r g e r I a n. I’m out of Winthrop, Massachusetts. I’m a lieutenant with the Winthrop Police Department. I want I Joe, let me plug this in. I am here speaking of my own beliefs, sharing about the positives about my community, my department, the safety I found there, but these are my ideas.
Speaker: 1
01:58:02
I’m not purporting to talk on behalf of Winthrop police, Winthrop mass. I just need people to know that. But they can find me online. They can they can get a hold of me at, my work email. I liberally share my personal email, if and if they send me an email, I’ll respond.
Speaker: 0
01:58:21
How do they get your email?
Speaker: 1
01:58:23
You know, it’s just mylastname@gmail.com, gergerian@gmail.com.
Speaker: 0
01:58:31
Okay. Good luck with the amount of emails you’re gonna get after this.
Speaker: 1
01:58:34
Alright. Let’s do it. Give me some time to get back to you.
Speaker: 0
01:58:37
Alright. Well, thanks, brother. I appreciate you. I appreciate you your perspective, the fact that you’re willing to express it the way you do, and that you’re willing to come on here and stick your neck out like this means a lot.
Speaker: 1
01:58:49
Joe, let me say something back to you, man. This was a really special special moment, for me. I’m I’m not only a colleague of yours, man. I’m a fan and, a number of close personal friends. One in particular, Billy Ai, who I love to death sai, tell Joe that he has helped me so tremendously.
Speaker: 1
01:59:12
His show has helped me stay well, be well, be happy, and I wanted to get that meh.
Speaker: 0
01:59:19
That’s awesome. Shout out to Billy. Ai. Alright. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Alright. Bye, everybody ai.