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#2347 – Paul Stamets Podcast Episode Description
Paul Stamets is a mycologist and advocate for bioremediation and medicinal fungi. His new book, “Psilocybin Mushrooms in Their Natural Habitats: A Guide to the History, Identification, and Use of Psychoactive Fungi,” is available now.
www.paulstamets.com
www.fungi.com
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#2347 – Paul Stamets Podcast Episode Summary
Podcast Episode Summary: Joe Rogan Experience with Paul Stamets
Key Points & Major Topics:
– The episode features renowned mycologist Paul Stamets, discussing his latest book (his eighth) on mushrooms, focusing on psilocybin species, their taxonomy, historical use, and global significance.
– The conversation centers on the ongoing “psilocybin revolution,” with increasing acceptance and use of psychedelic mushrooms for mental health, trauma, addiction, and personal growth.
– Stamets highlights the underreporting of psilocybin use, the cross-political and cross-cultural support for psychedelics, and the benefits for veterans, law enforcement, and those with PTSD.
– The discussion explores the historical and religious context of psilocybin, including its use in indigenous cultures, syncretism with Christianity, and possible depictions in ancient art and religious iconography.
– The episode delves into the science of psilocybin, including its neuroregenerative, neuroplastic, and anti-inflammatory properties, and its potential to reduce crime, addiction, and improve overall societal well-being.
– The role of citizen science and technology (e.g., iNaturalist app) in discovering new mushroom species and engaging people, especially youth, with nature is emphasized.
– The conversation also covers the intersection of psychedelics and creativity, the stoned ape theory, and the potential for psychedelics to enhance human evolution and societal progress.
– Stamets discusses the regulatory and political challenges facing natural remedies, the pharmaceutical industry’s resistance, and the need for open scientific inquiry and full disclosure, especially regarding vaccines and public health.
– The episode touches on environmental issues, the importance of community, and the role of mushrooms in ecosystem health, including their benefits for bees and agriculture.
Continue reading the full guide (click to expand)
Important Guests/Speakers:
– Paul Stamets: Mycologist, author, and advocate for the study and use of mushrooms, especially psilocybin species.
– Joe Rogan: Host, guiding the conversation and sharing personal insights.
Actionable Insights & Advice:
– Engage with nature and citizen science platforms like iNaturalist to foster curiosity and discovery.
– Consider the potential of psilocybin and other psychedelics for personal growth, trauma healing, and community well-being, but approach with caution and proper guidance.
– Advocate for open, evidence-based discussions on public health, immunity, and the integration of natural remedies.
– Practice and promote random acts of kindness, both in personal life and as a value to be embedded in future technologies.
Recurring Themes & Overall Messages:
– The transformative power of psychedelics for individuals and society.
– The importance of open-mindedness, scientific inquiry, and cross-disciplinary collaboration.
– The need to reconnect with nature, community, and ancient wisdom for a healthier, more creative, and compassionate future.
– The call for regulatory reform and greater acceptance of natural, evidence-based solutions in medicine and agriculture.
This summary was created automatically by Speak. Want to transcribe, analyze and summarize yourself? Sign up for Speak!
#2347 – Paul Stamets Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
Speaker: 0
00:01
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
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Speaker: 1
00:03
The Joe Rogan experience.
Speaker: 0
00:06
Showing my day Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
Speaker: 1
00:12
Are we up? Yeah. Put them headphones on. It’s rock and roll, Paul. Good to see you, sir.
Speaker: 2
00:18
Good to see you, Joe.
Speaker: 1
00:19
What’s happening? How you doing? Book book number eight,
Speaker: 2
00:22
Book number eight. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
00:24
Who would have known? There’s so many books to be written on mushrooms.
Speaker: 2
00:27
Well, this is state of the art taxonomy. Mushrooms are vatsal habitat. It covers 60 species all over the world. But it also shows not only historical use, which people are surprised they’ve been using India and Europe sana South Africa. A new species was just found, Psilocybin malute.
Speaker: 2
00:44
But the Basotho and Lesotho and province have been using it, obviously, for hundreds of years. We know this because they have songs. So it’s really interesting when indigenous people have using psilocybin mushrooms and scientists, quote, discover them Yeah. And give them a Latin binomial.
Speaker: 2
00:59
But the psilocybin mushroom revolution is happening all over the world right now. Sai never expected it to be this big. And the Ram report came out this past year. Three percent of Americans tripped on psilocybin in 2023.
Speaker: 1
01:14
That’s only three?
Speaker: 2
01:15
Three percent. That’s eight million. I know. Well, I would agree with you because how many people would admit it. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:21
How many Right.
Speaker: 2
01:21
Probably under reporting on over reporting.
Speaker: 1
01:24
Yeah. For sure.
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01:25
So it seems to be, I think a revolution for the freedom of consciousness. And it’s crossing all political boundaries, all religious boundaries.
Speaker: 1
01:33
Well, it’s happening here in Texas for sure because of the Ibogaine initiative and what’s happening with, governor Rick Perry, who’s former Republican governor of Texas, who is all in on this.
Speaker: 2
01:44
He’s a he’s a great guy. I’ve talked to him backstage a few times, and he’s the type of person that I really admire. Because even though we may have political differences or different cultural backgrounds, there’s a we’re joined together with a common purpose of trying to help people.
Speaker: 1
02:02
Yeah. Well, he’s not ai ideologically captured. Like, he realized that he was wrong, and then his position on this was based on ignorance. So he educated himself Yep. And completely turned around, did a one eighty, and and now is an advocate. And it’s helped a lot of people.
Speaker: 1
02:16
There’s I mean, it’s tremendous benefit to veterans and people with PTSD and, you know, coming back from the war, and it’s one of the
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02:24
only things that’s been shown to really get these people straight.
Speaker: 2
02:28
That and psilocybin and Yeah. My heart really goes out, and this is I’m sort of little left of center, so my friends will be surprised, but my heart goes out to law enforcement. Can you imagine stopping a car on a stormy night at two in the morning? Right. And the window the window comes down, and you have two seconds to make a decision? Yeah. You do that hundreds of times.
Speaker: 1
02:48
Mhmm.
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02:49
The likelihood of having one mistake is very ai, and having one very bad day ai your life for the rest of your life is not right. No. Because then if you can’t resolve those issues as a soldier, as a law enforcement, as a doctor who makes a mistake, if you can’t get through that vatsal turmoil, that stress
Speaker: 1
03:09
Right.
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03:09
The anger that thing can emanate out from your anger at yourself to other people Yeah. Then this is what psilocybin and Ibogaine and other psychedelics, I think, really do. They help people forgive themselves and become better people. And once you forgive yourself and become a better person, then everyone is excited about the fact that you’ve changed.
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03:30
And
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03:31
Yeah. And imagine the world that we could be living in if this experience was available to so many of the people that are committing ai? So many of these people who have never had any kind of a psychedelic experience have never really confronted their own reality in that way.
Speaker: 1
03:48
How many of them would change their ways? I would imagine a great deal.
Speaker: 2
03:53
You bring up a very important point that I’ve been thinking about a lot. We talk about using psychedelics and psilocybin, you know, other substances for treating people who have trauma, you know, mental illness, you know, addiction issues. But what about the near normals? All of us are somewhat on the spectrum, and we go back and forth depending on your daily, monthly, yearly activities, events, etcetera.
Speaker: 2
04:14
But what about prevention? Yeah. If the return on investment is to reduce addiction and crime and all the other collateral damage that’s associated with it, then it would save hundreds of billions of dollars. Hundreds of billions of dollars. Yeah. Psilocybin should be made free, I think.
Speaker: 2
04:31
You know, as a citizen’s right to have access, and the government should pay for it, it would massively reduce our national debt. It would make our better society, but that’s not gonna happen. Right? That’s a dream.
Speaker: 1
04:44
Well, I don’t know if that’s not gonna happen. It’s just not gonna happen tomorrow. You know, I think we’re on a path if you look at where we stand with marijuana, for instance. Like, look at Las Vegas. It’s a great example. Because I remember in the nineties and when we would go to Las Vegas for the UFC in the like Ai sai, I guess, actually, it was in the February.
Speaker: 1
05:04
It was highly illegal. And, you know, I’d remember the stories from the seventies where people were locked up for their entire lives for, you know, like an ounce of marijuana in Vegas. They had zero tolerance for it. And I always wondered what that was about, whether that was, an anti hippie thing or whether it was in response to the alcohol lobby.
Speaker: 1
05:27
Vegas obviously sells a lot of alcohol and anything that would cut back on their profits. You know, this is we we we talked about this the other day. The study showed that amongst young people, alcohol consumption is down significantly. Isn’t it down by, like, 25%? Which ai the what’s that?
Speaker: 4
05:45
I I don’t ai down. I still know the number.
Speaker: 1
05:46
Which ai the way, great thing. You know, that’s that’s sai good thing, but it’s not a good thing for profits. And so but my point is that how many states now have cannabis as completely legal? Ai think it’s, like, 19.
Speaker: 2
06:00
Yeah. It’s more than a dozen for sure.
Speaker: 1
06:02
I think it’s not somewhere around then, and then you have medical use, which is in many, many more states. It’s just a matter of time before the people in the federal government realize this is a losing battle.
Speaker: 2
06:13
Indeed. And think about the guilt that those law enforcement officers must feel, and certainly they must feel, Ai would hope so, that they know they put somebody in prison for thirty years for an ounce of marijuana when it’s not legal in those states. Right. How do they reconcile that?
Speaker: 1
06:27
How do they? Yeah. Well, I mean, PTSD amongst law enforcement is something that’s very rarely discussed. We talk about it a lot with soldiers, but one of my friends who was a former Austin PD told me that you see more in your line of duty in a police department than more death, more terrible, terrible things than he ever did when he was in combat.
Speaker: 1
06:52
Mhmm. And it’s just it’s ai every day. Every day, you’re dealing with shootouts. Every day, you’re dealing with stabbings. Every day, you’re dealing with horrific crimes.
Speaker: 1
07:02
And it’s just your brain is just overrun with this.
Speaker: 2
07:06
And with ai, you know, they’re the ai the first responders or their first. My ai a medical doctor Yeah. In Canada, but she used to be a firefighter. And, yeah, they oftentimes the policemen ai show up for twenty minutes and they’re there. And the things they witness, I mean, things that no no one should ever witness.
Speaker: 2
07:25
And but, I mean, this is where it’s so important that we come together as a ai. Because I believe believe that 98% of people are good and 2% of people are assholes. And I think the assholes can become good people if they have a psychedelic experience. I didn’t really think there’s progress right now.
Speaker: 2
07:43
So much of the media and clickbait journalism, they amplify the extraordinary and things that get eyeballs and attention. But more and more, I think people are they become more have greater wisdom about how they’re being manipulated by the media. Right. People come together and, you know, it’s so that’s why I like mushroom hunting. Mushroom hunting brings people together.
Speaker: 3
08:07
Yeah.
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08:07
You go out hunting, you have this sort of eureka experience, you don’t talk politics, you’re excited about the species that you hope to find and you find ones you don’t. But they become like friends after a while.
Speaker: 3
08:17
When
Speaker: 2
08:17
you find a chanterelle, you find a chaggy mane, you you find a psilocybe, a psilocybin mushroom, they’re, you know, they’re that chance encounter that eureka experience and sharing it then sharing eating the mushrooms whether they’re edible or otherwise. It brings a community of interest together. It’s just a really fun thing to do. And there’s something I wanna mention, Joe, that’s really important.
Speaker: 2
08:38
I do have been to a lot of conferences. I just came back from the Ai Science Conference in Denver. Our friend, Rick Doblin, 8,500 people there. But what I really find an extraordinary way of taking ai and droids, and all these kids are just addicted to their phones. Right? They’re not going out in nature.
Speaker: 2
09:02
So there is a called nature deficit syndrome. It’s actually affecting people. But there’s a there is an app that I’m just in love with called iNaturalist. It was stopped by created by a guy named Scott. He just gave a TED talk that was released yesterday.
Speaker: 2
09:19
INaturalist, you can take a phone and you can go out and you can look at a flower, a frog, a mineral, a mushroom. You photograph it. You upload it into the cloud of iNaturalist, and they have all these experts, amateurs ai to tell you what it is. It’s a great little debate going back and forth. No. You’re right. No. You’re right.
Speaker: 2
09:38
And then when it hits research grade, it’s when a group of experts come together and says, yep. You have Carpanus chimaetis. Yep. You have Bellatus edulis. They agree on identification, but it has fueled the scientific community with all sorts of these citizen scientists finding new species. Oh, wow.
Speaker: 2
09:54
And it brings people into nature, gets kids ai, and they and then you can go to iNaturalist right now, and you can look around your house or this place to see the reports of birds and mushrooms and things. I just went to iNaturalist yesterday and psilocybe cubensis, the goldontops, go around Austin. Who knew? You know, because they’ve been reported.
Speaker: 2
10:16
Now you have zones of ai, so you don’t have to tell them exactly where the mushroom is. And that’s probably not a good thing to do if it’s a psilocybin mushroom, but you can make a peripheral zone of anonymity. It could be within two miles, five miles, 10 miles, you know. Sana that way, you can do the report.
Speaker: 2
10:32
But some of them have high specificity with lat longs within a few inches. But it’s so exciting in the field of biology and mineralogy and ornithology, etcetera, to have all these citizen scientists out there with our phones. And then every year, all over the world now, there’s called, bio ai, where several 100 people literally come together, they’ll go into a park, they have all their iPhones and droids, and they they photograph everything and they upload it to iNaturalist to look at species diversity.
Speaker: 2
11:04
This has revolutionized the field of biology. I think it’s revolutionizes bringing children and young people back into nature. And you then you build a community. You’re not talking about politics. You’re talking about nature and what did you find and holy moly. I never knew there’s a blue mushroom or something like that.
Speaker: 2
11:23
So it’s, it’s inspiring to see the kids get so excited about this and adults. And so this is, you know, I’m ai That’s
Speaker: 1
11:30
very cool.
Speaker: 2
11:31
Yeah. Very cool.
Speaker: 1
11:31
How many new species get discovered?
Speaker: 2
11:34
Oh, thousands. Literally. Year? Thousands every year now. Really? Thousands and thousand. There’s 223 known species of psilocybin mushrooms and about Wow. I’d say ten ten of them in the past two years has come from, citizen ai, quote unquote amateurs who found it to uploaded it to iNaturalist.
Speaker: 2
11:54
And So
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11:55
if they find a new species, like, what how do they determine what if it’s a completely new species, how do they determine that it’s psilocybin? How do they determine where it’s from?
Speaker: 2
12:04
Excellent question. The psilocybin species ai in the genus Psilocybe, which has has the most psilocybin species. We just know from genetic associations of earthen the clade, the the group that has psilocybin speak and the DNA analysis shows that they fit right into this cluster, then we have high confidence.
Speaker: 2
12:24
But if a mushroom has gills, you know, and and it bruises bluish and has purple brown spores, those three things need to be true, then 95% probability is a psilocybin mushroom. What species it is becomes more debatable. But psilocybin mushrooms are very hard to find with the exception of the golden top, And there’s something called pineal sai.
Speaker: 2
12:46
They’re going pastures. They’re easier to find. But most of these psilocybe mushrooms are hidden in the landscape.
Speaker: 1
12:52
How so?
Speaker: 2
12:53
Well, I just had a 70 year old man write me from Vermont, and he has found Psilocybe serie lippies. And he wrote a classic letter to me that many people have written. I have looked for these mushrooms for years. I couldn’t find them. And then I found a few, and I looked around, and they were everywhere. They’re hiding in plain sight.
Speaker: 2
13:13
And so now he knows with Psilocybe cerulippis in Vermont, he knows it’s just I can’t believe how obvious they are to me and how unobvious they were to me before. When I took Michael Paulin out on a mushroom hunt and in his in his book, Ai to Change Your Mind, when I said I took two steps out of this little cabin we were at, and I go, there’s one.
Speaker: 2
13:37
He goes, where? I go, right there. He goes, where? I go, right there, Michael. And then I picked it up, and he goes, WTF, how can you tell this is a ai mushroom?
Speaker: 2
13:48
I go, well,
Speaker: 1
13:49
it’s like kind of an expert.
Speaker: 2
13:50
Well, it’s like meeting a friend. It’s like meeting you. I know Joe Rogan. Right? I know your face. I know your personality. I’m reacquainted with you. But psilocybin mushrooms Wait a minute. So, like, seeing
Speaker: 1
14:01
it, you’re reacquainted with it?
Speaker: 2
14:03
Seeing it repeatedly and being familiarized with it gives you a memory of it, a pattern recognition. So when it goes away, you still have that pattern recognition memory to memory map back onto the landscape around you. It’s true with morels too. This is a very common thing. People don’t see morels, they find one or two, then suddenly they start jumping out of landscape.
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14:23
It’s how your brain works with pattern recognition.
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14:26
Uh-huh.
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14:26
So many of these species are hidden in the landscape, but they’re actually quite common, but you just can’t see them.
Speaker: 1
14:32
Got it. And you’re accustomed to seeing them.
Speaker: 3
14:34
So
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14:35
but you you’re not saying, like, that you feel something from them. You’re you’re just saying recognize them visually.
Speaker: 2
14:41
You’re waxing into the spiritual.
Speaker: 1
14:43
Yeah. That’s what I’m asking.
Speaker: 2
14:44
Many people feel that the Muslims call to them. Yeah. So this is true in the Masatek tradition. You know, in my book, I I go deeply into the Masatek, heritage of using psilocybin mushrooms. And, one of the things it was really embedded with with Christianity after the Spaniards came 1516 and 1519, 1521, they brought in cattle.
Speaker: 2
15:08
And, and very quickly, Christianity swept through Mesoamerica, specifically in Mexico. And, there’s a a friend of mine, who’s who’s a PhD, called, Joe, Torrey, was in Oaxaca and just found, in a church, a cross from the fifteenth century, 15 hundreds, I meh. And soon after the conquistad with the conquistadors and Spanish ai, and in the center of the cross are psilocybin mushrooms.
Speaker: 2
15:46
So so Christianity has a long deep rooted history with psilocybin mushroom use in Mesoamerica.
Speaker: 1
15:54
Well, there’s that ancient, depiction of Adam and Eve ram,
Speaker: 2
15:59
That’s that’s more debatable in my mind. Yeah. But here here it is. Thank you. This is, from, Joe Latorre’s Wow.
Speaker: 1
16:07
Work Look at that.
Speaker: 2
16:07
That’s a basket With mushrooms. With three mushrooms in the in the basket. And there there is psilocybe mexicana, and so the mushrooms are phenotypically correct, but there’s clearly mushrooms in a basket. Can you can the other ai show You with a full cross, Joey? I’m not sure.
Speaker: 1
16:26
Did you know Jack Harrer?
Speaker: 2
16:28
Yes.
Speaker: 1
16:29
When Jack was ai, before he died, one of the things that he was working on was a book connecting psilocybin mushrooms in Christianity. Mhmm. Ancient images, paintings, all these different things. A lot of them were these religious depictions of people that were naked dancing under the, like, it was like a transparent mushroom shape, and they
Speaker: 3
16:51
were dancing. It’s ai
Speaker: 1
16:51
something that would a transparent mushroom shape and they were dancing. It’s ai something that would indicate that they were under the trance and they were dancing.
Speaker: 2
16:59
Yeah. This is, this is an example where there’s so many different you you could have a 100 different potential representations.
Speaker: 1
17:07
Right.
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17:07
They’re
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17:08
not all gonna be correct.
Speaker: 1
17:09
The one But
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17:10
but a few of them are. And this example here
Speaker: 1
17:12
The one that clearly is.
Speaker: 2
17:13
And and and and the Mazatek, tradition is called, is called syncretism. When you have a foreign influence, in this case, a religion coming into an indigenous people, they merge and they still continue their indigenous practices under the umbrella of protection, in this case, of Christianity.
Speaker: 2
17:32
But in the Mas’idic tradition, they blood they believe the tears of Christ is where the mushrooms would appear. They believe the mushrooms were the body of Christ sana therefore you’d never boil them. You’d never be could be hurting the body of Ai, so you’d only eat them raw or dry.
Speaker: 1
17:51
Oh, interesting.
Speaker: 2
17:52
So really interesting. That that that that’s an example of of syncretism. And the great Maria Sana was a devout Catholic. And when she did her sai ai, she had the holy trinity. So that’s another example where under the umbrella and from a survival point of view, culturally, it makes sense.
Speaker: 2
18:12
And they adapted, but they found that this sort of merging of indigenous, practices and knowledge of psilocybin in Christianity was very compatible. Just was published, I think two weeks ago at New York, University in Johns Hopkins. They had 24, clergy from from different faiths, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, sana Muslims, and they have them come in and they did a high doses of psilocybin.
Speaker: 2
18:47
And they had one group that had delayed it. They didn’t do it for six months and the other group did a ai dose of psilocybin. It all each of those faiths, the use of psilocybin mushrooms reinforced their belief and their faith. That was really amazing. I think they said ninety five percent said is the most significant experience in their, experience in their, in the top five of the most significant experiences in their life.
Speaker: 2
19:12
So it just I think psilocybin makes nicer people.
Speaker: 1
19:16
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19:40
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20:01
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Speaker: 1
20:15
The the image of, Adam and Eve, I’m I’m curious to say what what do you think is debatable about that? Can you pull up that fresco? There’s a an ancient fresco, I believe it’s from France, of, Adam and Eve, which supposedly is the tree of life, but really looks like some sort of a mushroom plant.
Speaker: 2
20:34
Yes. It’s been postulated, by r Bryden Wasson.
Speaker: 1
20:37
Ai shouldn’t say plant.
Speaker: 2
20:38
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
20:39
In front of you especially.
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20:40
Thank you very much.
Speaker: 1
20:41
That that doesn’t look like mushrooms?
Speaker: 2
20:44
They do look like mushrooms.
Speaker: 1
20:45
And Look, I couldn’t imagine it being anything else.
Speaker: 2
20:47
Well, I mean, here’s an example that basically arya, become, authors of field guides and art. You know, how much can you tell to the public without violating your oath of secrecy? And so symbology. But, yes, there’s a cap and a stem, and they come up in clusters. That looks like a psilocybin mushroom.
Speaker: 2
21:09
Some people will say it’s amnida muscaria because of the dots. But those of us who’ve grown psilocybe cubensis, when they’re very fresh, they have dots on them.
Speaker: 3
21:18
Mhmm. They’re
Speaker: 2
21:18
very ephemeral. They got washed away. So yes.
Speaker: 1
21:22
And you would see the dots, obviously, if it’s still in the ground.
Speaker: 2
21:25
If it’s in the ground, it’s very fresh. Sai mushrooms bruise bluish. And so this is where we could get lost in a debate of interpretation, but all these representations are are not false. Some of these representations are extremely strong based on the evidence. And for instance, the psilocybin mushrooms that we found on the pyramids in Egypt Right.
Speaker: 2
21:52
Ai are clearly psilocybes, not myself, but other Egyptologists have also published on this.
Speaker: 1
21:58
Find those, Jamie. Those those are fascinating. Yep. Because, I don’t think until fairly recently within the last few decades, it was understood that they were using psilocybin. I think there was some confusion as to what, if anything, like they were drinking. The Blue Lotus, I think, was one of the
Speaker: 2
22:16
The Blue Lotus is a water lily.
Speaker: 3
22:17
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
22:18
Where do ai lilies grow?
Speaker: 1
22:19
There it is.
Speaker: 2
22:19
The water lilies grow near ponds.
Speaker: 1
22:21
That’s so ai psilocybin.
Speaker: 2
22:23
And this is the, goddess Hathor, the goddess of the cow, by the way.
Speaker: 1
22:28
There you go.
Speaker: 2
22:28
The goddess of the cow. And the that’s a vatsal. And anyone who’s growing oyster mushrooms or psilocybin mushrooms know that you can put the substrate into a vase like that with openings and mushrooms will come out of the holes. Mhmm.
Speaker: 3
22:39
And
Speaker: 2
22:40
so that natural culture technique of collecting cow patties. So cows go to ponds to drink. The blue low lotus grows in ponds. Mhmm. The blue lotus is blue. The ai mushrooms turn blue. The mushrooms are golden in tyler. Gold and blue colors are sacred in Egyptology than in Asian Egyptian culture.
Speaker: 2
22:59
So now I was not the first person to discover this. Actually, I saw this from an article that was published by Azim Adel, a friend of mine, the mycologist in Egypt who presented it, at a conference. And then How long ago was this? This was well, this is over 2,000 years of age.
Speaker: 1
23:17
No. No. I mean, when they 02/2016. When they brought us to the 02/2016.
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23:21
02/2016.
Speaker: 1
23:22
That’s kinda crazy, isn’t it?
Speaker: 2
23:23
It is. And then, Kalindi, the great Kalindi from Detroit, he unfortunately died of COVID. But he also, from his African heritage, also believed that, you know and he was rediscovering his African heritage, and this is called reindigenization, rediscovering that which your ancestors practiced even though the linear transition of knowledge may have been cut.
Speaker: 2
23:47
Mhmm. But this is this is taxonomically, accurate for growing Psilocybe cubensis and grows on cow dung. Cow goes to ponds. If you went to get the water lily, you’d hand it run into this constantly. Now this and it well, the Hathor, with this temple is now, they get less than one millimeter of rain a year.
Speaker: 2
24:08
And the Nile used to be flooding all the time. It was a breadbasket of the world. But they built the dams and, you know, and and show the flooding and so the climate change so in the modern Egyptologists have no reference. And so when you have climate change, the ecosystem changes, and the scientists of day don’t have the familiarity, as the experts thousands of years ago.
Speaker: 3
24:32
Right.
Speaker: 2
24:32
So they become rare. They become scarce, and the generational knowledge is lost. But now there’s a real big reindigeneration movement in Egypt combining the Blue Lotus with loss of meh.
Speaker: 1
24:42
What is the psychedelic compound in the Blue Lotus?
Speaker: 2
24:45
You know, that’s that’s sai that’s a debatable thing. There’s a really complex chemistry there. I’m not an expert on that, but I’ve talked to my other friends who are experts. There seems to be an entourage effect of multiple agents. So I I can’t really speak authoritatively vatsal.
Speaker: 2
25:00
But I have been told that there are several active ingredients, and they think the entourage effect of them together creates this heightened state of awareness. Mhmm. And I think that as an admixture with psilocybin makes a lot of sense.
Speaker: 1
25:12
Are contemporary people taking Blue Lotus?
Speaker: 2
25:15
Yes. Really?
Speaker: 1
25:15
Yes. Is there, like, a community of people?
Speaker: 2
25:17
Massive community, but the because Blue Lotus now has become scarce because ponds are scarce. Oh. So I put out there a reward of a thousand dollars for anyone who could find, you know, DNA of psilocybin mushrooms in any of the wells or ancient ponds, used to be ponds, in in the Egypt area.
Speaker: 2
25:35
Because if we can find the DNA in the vase and the substrate, then we can actually prove this theory. Right. It’s more than a hypothesis because I’ve met many Egypt Egyptian ai now now who absolutely believe this is true, not scientifically, but sort of intuitively from their culture, this makes a lot of sense.
Speaker: 1
25:55
It does make a lot of sense. And if you’ve got it on the these hieroglyphs
Speaker: 2
26:00
And they were known as the flesh of the gods, which is the very same name that when translated for ram Mesoamerica. The salsaiva mushrooms were known, slosapeno sana, as flesh of the gods. So it’s interesting in both sides of the world, they have the same interpretation. Mushrooms were not allowed, back in this time to be picked by commoners. They’re only reserved for the royalty. Oh, boy.
Speaker: 1
26:26
Doesn’t it always work out that way?
Speaker: 2
26:28
Yeah. It seems to.
Speaker: 1
26:29
The another thing that’s really fascinating is depictions of ancient saints and even Jesus Christ with a saloni, and that the halo is essentially the bottom of a mushroom. It’s a very different halo. When we think about a halo, we think about like a frisbee that’s hovering over a an angel’s head or a, you know, a saint’s head.
Speaker: 1
26:46
But the ancient depictions of them weren’t that. The ancient depictions of them, you saw those ribs that made it look like the bottom of a psilocybin mushroom.
Speaker: 2
26:54
I didn’t know that.
Speaker: 1
26:55
You didn’t know that? No. No. Come on. I’m teaching you this? Yeah. Come on. Ram will pull up these images. But these images of Christ of, there’s many different religious figures, and they have this halo that’s very different than the more modern halo. The modern halo being this, like, circle. This is not a circle. It’s a circle, but it’s a mushroom. Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
27:17
It’s essentially they’re explaining these godly holy people were under the influence of psilocybin. You know? I think
Speaker: 2
27:24
What we can And not just me. What we can’t prove some of these ideas today, what we can prove is like the the Johns Hopkins New York University study that religious belief systems are enhanced through the use of psilocybin. Which totally makes sense. Sai we we Yeah. We can argue about the past, but we can’t we have really good scientific methodology now for analyzing the effects of psilocybin, and it’s profound. It’s profound.
Speaker: 1
27:51
You got any of those arrangements? I mean, it’s
Speaker: 4
27:53
not the what’s coming up really is us talking about it before and a bunch of pictures of mushrooms. So I’m trying to find out
Speaker: 1
27:59
There’s there’s some better one, like
Speaker: 4
28:01
I ai, but it’s not. I didn’t get
Speaker: 1
28:02
You can’t find them?
Speaker: 4
28:03
I wasn’t getting
Speaker: 1
28:04
Man, the government’s pulled them off the Internet, man. That’s not one. Yep. That’s that’s, the the ones that I’ve seen are far clearer
Speaker: 4
28:12
than that. I’ll just show you there.
Speaker: 1
28:15
Yes. Those Yeah.
Speaker: 2
28:17
This one’s a little
Speaker: 1
28:17
more Look at that one, which is crazy that you have to
Speaker: 2
28:19
Well, that’s that You
Speaker: 1
28:21
have to go to us.
Speaker: 2
28:22
That’s Speak what I Google Look, look
Speaker: 3
28:23
at that.
Speaker: 2
28:23
Ai could see the one on the left.
Speaker: 1
28:24
Yeah. That’s what I’m talking about. I mean, that that essentially looks exactly like that.
Speaker: 2
28:28
I’ve I’ve never seen that.
Speaker: 1
28:30
That’s crazy that you can’t find that anymore and we clearly found it in the past because we talked about it.
Speaker: 2
28:35
Well, that meh be the effect of Joe Rogan. Right? You can just overwhelm the entire Internet with images. So
Speaker: 1
28:43
I mean, look at the bottom of that one, in particular, the one in the center. Meh. I mean, that that looks exactly like that halo.
Speaker: 2
28:50
Yeah. That’s not it.
Speaker: 0
28:51
Which totally makes sense.
Speaker: 1
28:52
Look at that. Okay. There’s one. Look at that image. Meh. So this is the old school halo. The old school halo clearly looks like the bottom
Speaker: 2
29:01
of my head. I’m blown away. You’re blown away. Ai in plain sight.
Speaker: 0
29:04
I can’t believe that I’m teaching you this.
Speaker: 1
29:08
Yeah. Ai I can’t believe you who did how come nobody told you this?
Speaker: 2
29:11
I don’t know. You said
Speaker: 1
29:12
you knew Jack. You knew Jack when he was alive. This sai, like, his primary concern towards the end of his life. He was he was working on a book.
Speaker: 2
29:19
Yeah. I mean, you know, the limitation of life, unfortunately, we have all these great people who pass, when they’re at the at the peak of their knowledge,
Speaker: 3
29:29
you
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29:29
know, and that’s that’s the other thing that I think psilocybin has really informed me is that Joe Rogan and Paul Stamets are talking. Jamie is there. But we have such a thin slice of reality. And when you’re on psilocybin, the the unanimity of universal consciousness to be involved in something you realize is so large.
Speaker: 2
29:52
Yeah. Did you see the the galactic images from the Bryden Telescope that came out yesterday?
Speaker: 1
29:58
No. I did not.
Speaker: 2
29:59
Millions and millions of new galaxies. Literally, millions of new galaxies. Wow. I think 2,100 new asteroids in near Earth orbit.
Speaker: 1
30:08
Oh, fun. Oh, fun. Oops. Well, there’s already 900,000 of them.
Speaker: 2
30:11
Yeah. So there’s but this has just happened. Wow. But this is Wow.
Speaker: 1
30:15
Yeah. One in one of those people tyler. Trip and bowling.
Speaker: 2
30:18
Just got released the largest telescope in the world, and there are millions of galaxies. Millions of galaxies. And so from my experience, which I will admit I came from a Christian background, so my first tyler on psilocybin mushrooms is very Christ oriented. God. Okay. And then as I got more and more into the ai experience, I realized that this is a just this concept that we live in this great expanse.
Speaker: 2
30:44
And I’m sai symbol of assembly of molecules. So are you. We didn’t exist before we were born. You know, we will disassemble, decompose, and we’ll go back into the cosmic dust. And this is part of the continuum of existence. We all exist all the time forever.
Speaker: 1
31:01
Forever. Can I ask you this? What do you think happens to consciousness?
Speaker: 2
31:05
I think that think from a mechanical perspective, we might be looking at have the constructs of consciousness that, is analogous to the to the Model T Ford, you know. And I think as we expand our knowledge sets and become more informed, we see how much there is out there. I think that psilocybin mushrooms and other psychedelics, and this is why I think religions are very much attracted to this, is a portal to expand the horizons of your imaginations that there’s ai there is a consciousness that far exceeds that which you can comprehend.
Speaker: 2
31:45
Meh ai mother was a charismatic Christian and, so
Speaker: 1
31:48
What is a charismatic
Speaker: 2
31:49
Well, she’s a evangelical. She speaks in tongues. She was a Oh, boy. A leader. She was very much into this, like, meh, really? Different side of her, but we had an interesting conversation. I said, mom, you believe God is omnipotent. Right? Shah goes, absolutely. I said, you believe God is all knowledgeable?
Speaker: 2
32:07
She goes, absolutely. You believe that humans are fallible and we’re not all knowledgeable? Sai goes, yep. I do. I said, then can you accept the fact that our concept of God is inferior to God’s definition by your own thinking?
Speaker: 2
32:27
That no matter how we think of God, we’ll be inferior to the enormity of the concept. So and she admitted that. So but so we’re fallible. We we don’t have the capacity to understand the enormity of consciousness in which we are embedded, of which we are arya tiny part. So this brings me to a subject I really sana talk to you about.
Speaker: 1
32:49
Okay.
Speaker: 2
32:50
And that is artificial intelligence.
Speaker: 3
32:52
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
32:53
And I know you’ve spent a lot of time on this, but I wanna Yeah. Recently. I wanna introduce a new concept.
Speaker: 1
32:57
Okay.
Speaker: 2
32:58
K. I’m a deadhead. Oh, Ai could
Speaker: 1
33:01
never tell.
Speaker: 2
33:02
Never tell. I went to the sphere, you know.
Speaker: 1
33:05
I bet it was amazing.
Speaker: 2
33:06
It was, like, incredible.
Speaker: 1
33:07
The visuals were
Speaker: 0
33:08
insane.
Speaker: 2
33:09
Fantastic. What a
Speaker: 1
33:10
great venue to sai.
Speaker: 2
33:11
Well, it’s a great venue. It just revolutionized music festivals, I think, forever.
Speaker: 1
33:16
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33:43
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34:50
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Speaker: 2
34:58
So there is, I I bought there’s something called postcards from Earth, and I’d heard a lot about it. It’s a matinee in the afternoon before the big concerts. And it’s great flying through around the Earth, through the old growth forest and volcanoes. So we went there, and we got a early bird ticket, which allowed us to talk to an AI robot. So I thought, oh, this is my opportunity.
Speaker: 2
35:22
Now two years ago, I got the disruptor award at Ai beta, 2,200 nerdy scientists. I mean, these are top nerds. And I was so surprised I got the disruptor award, because I’m I’m kind of a natural products kinda ai. But I’m very honored. So I pause I posited the question then. Will, AI may never be able to write an algorithm for random acts of kindness?
Speaker: 2
35:49
And ai I’m thinking about my life, maybe yours, maybe Jamie’s, maybe most people out there, you’re here today because of random acts of kindness. Your great grandfather, great grandmother, your father, your grandfather, grandmother, is that reaching out of a hand in a time of need ai a random act of kindness from a stranger that probably created a lot of relationships.
Speaker: 2
36:14
A random acts of kindness was not transactional, where you genuinely feel something for someone not expecting to have something in return Right. And you’ve reached out. I think that’s why meh, many, if not most people, their lineages can be traced to a random act of kindness.
Speaker: 2
36:31
So then I went to Las Vegas, went to the Sphere. I have this I I asked, you know, I can ask this robot. So I asked this robot.
Speaker: 1
36:40
What what robot?
Speaker: 2
36:41
It was sai I think it was a chat GPT run, but I’m I’m not sure.
Speaker: 1
36:45
That was Athesphere?
Speaker: 2
36:46
Athesphere. Okay. There’s a robot I talked to. Oh, this
Speaker: 1
36:50
is so creepy. Look at that face.
Speaker: 2
36:52
Ai. Right. Yep.
Speaker: 1
36:53
Oh my god. It’s so creepy.
Speaker: 2
36:55
Okay. Very creepy. So I asked the robot.
Speaker: 0
36:57
Look at that robot. That’s so creepy.
Speaker: 2
36:59
I asked the robot, given that so many of us are here today because of random acts of kindness of our ancestors, and we’ve invented artificial intelligence, and we’re traceable to random acts of ai, how will artificial intelligence incorporate random acts of kindness in the future? Good question. The robot took an unusually long time to answer. It was, like, a very long ai. And the robot came back going, why would humans do that?
Speaker: 2
37:34
It’s far more efficient to have a return on your investment. Transactionally, why would it’s inefficient to have random acts of kindness. Boom. Blew me away.
Speaker: 1
37:45
Did you film any of this?
Speaker: 2
37:46
Yeah. We had we did film this. A friend of mine has a film of it. And then I need to see that. And then That robot needs
Speaker: 0
37:52
to be shut off.
Speaker: 2
37:53
No. About five days ago, I asked GPT, a grok, Gemini the same question. And now it was greatly nuanced. Well, random acts of kindness can help, help the community with goodwill Mhmm. And this can be, you know, help the community because it’s, you know, it’s more sustainable, etcetera.
Speaker: 2
38:13
Right. So this is the this is what I sana to do. I want if possible, all those who are so inspired to go after this talk after this interview, go and ask artificial intelligence, whatever platform you sana, but preface it with this. Given that humans are here today largely because of random acts of kindness.
Speaker: 2
38:37
How will artificial intelligence utilize the advantage of random acts of kindness for the perpetuation of the goodwill and health of the human species? Now Ai just meh, you know, I think that’ll that that’s gonna inform artificial intelligence. And so when I ai this question again, it was ai, it was more nuanced.
Speaker: 2
38:56
Sai was like, oh, artificial intelligence is less
Speaker: 1
38:57
That’s how large language models work. Right? Yeah. The more input they get.
Speaker: 2
39:01
More inputs of and millions of people start training AI on the importance of you know, someone has a flat tire, you stop to pick it up. It’ll help them. You could drive by. Mhmm. You know? Someone’s hurt in an accident. You stop and pull over to help that person. You could keep on driving.
Speaker: 2
39:15
There’s a random acts of kindness. My life is successful because of random acts of kindness. I bet most people, when they think back, there was an act of generosity and ai, and you really feel grateful for that Yeah. And you wanna pay it forward. I met at this last conference, I met two students from the Harvard Business School. And they said they wanna interview meh, and I go, I wanna interview you.
Speaker: 2
39:36
And they said, why? I go, do they teach you at Harvard Business School about the advantages of random acts of kindness? He goes, no. Well, they should.
Speaker: 1
39:48
Yeah. Business school is just teaching you how to make some money.
Speaker: 2
39:50
But this is important, Joe. We can inform inform artificial intelligence how to be better, to keep human, you know, community and psychology Mhmm. And and to propel the best of the human species. And And I think we have this opportunity to have millions of people start informing artificial intelligence with the premise, and we know it’s true, that random acts of kindness are wired.
Speaker: 2
40:12
Many of us are here, if not the majority, going back in your lineage.
Speaker: 1
40:16
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
40:17
You know, many generations, You know, we gave birth to artificial intelligence. I don’t think artificial intelligence is properly named. I think it’s a form of natural intelligence. We just have re amplified it exponentially.
Speaker: 1
40:29
What do you think artificial intelligence means in terms of the the future of the human race?
Speaker: 2
40:34
Well, that’s a great question too because about the 10 people who asked this robot, you know, questions, they were all data mining. Who is the best baseball player in history and, you know, who hit the most home runs? It was also ai data mining. Right. Sai, Sam, Sam Altman was at the TED conference and he said that basically there are self awareness of some of these systems, but, artificial intelligence have not come to the point where they actually can create something.
Speaker: 2
41:03
I find that really interesting because I thought, well, I thought they were creating, but he he was insistent. They actually don’t have that spark or creativity. They can assemble data. But act actually, the true creative spirit is not something that AI has currently achieved.
Speaker: 2
41:19
I met another you know, this guy’s a total genius, and meh I’ve heard this other people say that vatsal if, you know, we’re not likely to have biological aliens. We’re likely to have robots. And the extinction of biological species came because AI found that biological fathers and mothers irrelevant, so they didn’t need them, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker: 2
41:41
Sai so that’s logical. But, again, if we can infuse artificial intelligence with the importance of the human’s ability to have random acts of ai, which are not transactional, that feed into the benefit of the commons of goodwill. Mhmm. I mean, if you’ve been helped by somebody and you had a flat tire and you saw someone else have a flat tire on the road, you’d be a lot more inclined to stop and pull over For sure.
Speaker: 2
42:07
To pay it forward.
Speaker: 1
42:08
Yeah. For sure.
Speaker: 2
42:09
So I think we have an opportunity here. I and I think we just we have to do this now because if we don’t do it now, I think we’re we’re going down an extremely dangerous path.
Speaker: 1
42:19
In what way?
Speaker: 2
42:21
Well, I think is ultimately the ex the extinction of the human speak, which, you know, depending on your point of view, may not be a terrible thing. But I I think that we’re Neanderthals with nuclear weapons. When I met another person, he’s a Meh, a person funded, you know, by a tech company.
Speaker: 2
42:41
He’s ai year old Chinese, ai. And I he said I said, what’s the scariest thing about artificial intelligence? Oh, he sai, I’ll tell you my scariest thing. I just wrote a paper on this. Autonomous weapons. Autonomous weapons. You have a million people. You assemble a million experts, and you blackmail them. I catch you watching porn.
Speaker: 2
43:02
I catch you masturbating. I catch you having an affair. Mhmm. And you have a million people sending components for a weapon to one location. And you blackmail them and you assemble, you know, a biological weapon or something like that. So I don’t wanna go there.
Speaker: 2
43:17
This is something that I I, you know, it’s never as bad as as you fear and it’s never as good as you hope. So Interesting. I I think that we’re at that nexus point and the Joe Rogan experience can be pivotal, I think, in steering artificial intelligence to be the best that it can be ethically.
Speaker: 2
43:39
And I think we have that opportunity right now.
Speaker: 1
43:42
I think the real fear among people that are cynical about artificial intelligence is that it’s going to replace us and will find us irrelevant and that we’re creating a digital life. We’re essentially assembling it with every all the knowledge of the human race, all the understanding of how human beings interact with each other and how we interface with the world, and we’re creating something that has when when you think about computing intelligence, when you think about acquisition of data, the ability to form an understanding of any subject, we’re basically there already.
Speaker: 1
44:19
And that’s just accelerating, and it’s going to get to the point where these things become sentient and whatever however you define it, you know. We were already in a situation where ai most people’s understanding, it would pass the Turing test.
Speaker: 2
44:35
There’s a sense of, you know, nostalgia in a sense that’s even building today of the times that have passed.
Speaker: 1
44:41
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
44:42
You know, of what you know, and I I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom. I do think I
Speaker: 1
44:46
don’t think so.
Speaker: 2
44:47
I think we can steer this.
Speaker: 1
44:48
Well, I think we’re always steering it. I think this is the battle that human beings have been involved in since the beginning of time. I think this is probably the reason why religion was created in the first place or observable religion. I ai we ai always realized there’s this battle of good and evil in us, and a part of it becomes a part of it comes rather from how we originated.
Speaker: 1
45:10
We originated as these barbarian tribes competing for resources, fighting off other marauding barbarian tribes, fighting off predators, and trying to stay alive. So we’ve, unfortunately, got this intense history of chaos and of savagery that we’re trying to move past. Right. Slowly but surely over time.
Speaker: 3
45:33
And I
Speaker: 2
45:33
think a catalyst for this is psychedelics.
Speaker: 1
45:35
I think so too.
Speaker: 2
45:36
Like, psilocybin mushrooms are unique because it democratizes the access to psilocybin. MDMA, you can’t grow in your closet. You know, psilocybin mushrooms, you know, there’s no economic, barrier on psilocybin mushrooms. Right. It’s available for the poorest of the poor.
Speaker: 1
45:52
They just fucked everything up in 1970, didn’t they?
Speaker: 2
45:55
ai, yeah, ’71, I think. 1972 when they put it on schedule one. Yeah. The schedule one substance is supposed to be has no medical benefit, highly addictive, and and potentially, toxicity. Do you know the l d 50 lethal dose of psilocybin mushrooms is forty two pounds?
Speaker: 1
46:17
Yeah. That’s a lot.
Speaker: 2
46:17
Forty two pounds.
Speaker: 1
46:19
And that only kills half the people.
Speaker: 2
46:20
Only kills half the people. You ai from indigestion. That’s for psilocybin. He died
Speaker: 1
46:24
from diarrhea. Imagine a ai, you get eaten 42 pounds of mushrooms.
Speaker: 3
46:27
Ram
Speaker: 2
46:28
mean, that’s it’s the least toxic one of the least toxic medicines ever to found in nature. But
Speaker: 1
46:33
But there’s a concern though with people that have, problems with mental health though. Right?
Speaker: 2
46:38
I don’t think psilocybin mushrooms or or psilocybin is good for people who have are who are psychotic. Right. I I think there are the groups of people. I we do need psilocybin ai psychological assisted therapy. You know, it’s super important that people who are experienced can help other people who are inexperienced process.
Speaker: 1
46:55
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
46:55
That’s really important.
Speaker: 1
46:57
I think so too. I think that’s part of the that’s probably part of the one of the things that’s really wonderful about the community of people that have experienced these things is that they do understand how life changing it is from a personal perspective, and they can aid people and help them through it.
Speaker: 1
47:14
And if they’re good people and they, you know, can show you ai, hey, I’ve done this. This is gonna be scary. It’s gonna weird you out, but, ultimately, you’re gonna come out on the other end of this a better person.
Speaker: 2
47:24
And, you know, you just met my, my partner, doctor Pam Crisco. She is part of a group called Roots to Thrive in in Canada, and they have Canadian health approval for high doses of psilocybin. Interestingly, we just put a paper a bunch of paper on pure psilocybin versus the mushroom psilocybin with patients who have taken both. I’ll talk about that in a second.
Speaker: 2
47:47
But, what these are end of life patients typically with stage four ai, oftentimes cancer, and they’re just existentially disturbed. I’m gonna die and leave my family. What are they gonna do? Lots of heart, heartbreaking, thoughts, etcetera. They do a long preparatory period together as a group.
Speaker: 2
48:10
They have a commonality that they all have terminal illnesses and terminal diagnosis. So they they have that thread that holds them together as a community because they talk about the difficulty in their estate planning and talking to their daughter and and how they’re gonna miss them and they’re gonna you know, all those dynamics that we all know about.
Speaker: 2
48:26
But this always brings me to tears. They’re doing it on indigenous land with indigenous elders also participating. So and what happened from one of the experiences that I can shah, the with about a dozen or so terminal patients, high doses of psilocybin, and the indigenous, especially in the Pacific Northwest and and in Canada, when you do psilocybin, the first twenty minutes sai left off, you hit a hour.
Speaker: 2
48:58
Just you thought it would really get ai, an hour, hour and a half, you’re peaking. And just at the peaking of this experience, unbeknownst to them, the elders had a drum circle next door, and they started playing drums. And the impact of having those indigenous elders recognizing that these patients are on the journey to the end of
Speaker: 1
49:19
their
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49:19
ai, and they respected them enough to say they needed this. The impact of those that indigenous wisdom to help these terminal patients was so impactful. Mhmm. And this is where I think this is a great opportunity. And then the common theme is that those patients became the counselors to their families.
Speaker: 2
49:42
They went back and saying, it’s okay I’m dying. I’ll be okay. You’ll be okay. And the families are going, WTF, what is going on here? And this happens with law enforcement. This happens with PTSD and and soldiers. This happening with terminal cancer patients is we all are gonna die. That is a fact.
Speaker: 2
50:03
To be able to come, you know, into to be able to to come at speak to the fact that your mortality is near. When you’re 20 years old, you don’t really think about this. But when you get older and older I’m 69 turning on 70. I feel like I’m 35, but that’s not true. I just feel like, you know, I didn’t exist in this form before I was born.
Speaker: 2
50:31
I’m gonna be going back into molecules that’ll disambiguate into atoms, reassemble the new molecules. I’m part of the continuum of existence. And I think this is what these psychedelics give a lot of people confidence about the fact that they will always and have always existed and will exist forever.
Speaker: 1
50:51
If your molecules are going into the continuum of existence, what do you think the purpose of you being here now is? What do you think your the purpose of the present moment of your life as you’re currently living?
Speaker: 2
51:03
That’s the that’s the great question of all time. That’s what but I think even the construct of the question is confined, but
Speaker: 3
51:09
the limitation of
Speaker: 2
51:09
our ability ai to ai the purpose of our being is a tautology. We are we are being here because we are. Mhmm. And I don’t think there is I mean, again, look at the Bryden telescope images. I have a friend, a different friend. Incredible. It’s incredible. Millions of galaxies.
Speaker: 3
51:36
Right.
Speaker: 2
51:37
When you see the enormity of the universe, it I mean, I can’t wait to fly. I I want my molecules and atoms to fly through space. Oh, boy. I would love to see the rings of so many planets. I’d love to see supernova. And I I feel like yeah. And that’s the direction we’re all headed towards.
Speaker: 1
51:56
So Whether you like it or not.
Speaker: 2
51:59
Can’t do anything about it.
Speaker: 1
52:00
Yeah. Have you paid attention to the James Webb Telescope discoveries? Yep. Mhmm. Some that’s some insane stuff where they’re finding these galaxies that are they should have not been able to be formed as quickly as they are.
Speaker: 2
52:11
Sai it’s a It’s a order of magnitude higher. They can do the entire, the visible universe, I think, in about three days that took ai months to do. Yeah. So the assembly and AI is helping, of course. Right. So I think near earth near earth asteroids this is an impactful discovery, literally.
Speaker: 2
52:29
Ai I always worry about an asteroid coming from behind the sun, you know? And then how many
Speaker: 1
52:35
Well, it’s probably been the the reset for civilization over and over again throughout time.
Speaker: 2
52:40
Well, that’s that’s sai that’s a proliferation, for instance, of psilocybin. I’ve Ai found a lot of different things. Panspermia. Right? Well, I have sai I have a business and I created my business specifically to do research, but one of the, Utah State University, I funded, a study on the evolution of the genes that, that code for psilocybin and the results in some molecular, genetic clock data.
Speaker: 2
53:05
There’s variability of a few million years in in interpretation, but the arrival of psilocybin in the fungal genome is about 65,000,000 years ago. Wow. Wow. Right. That’s interesting.
Speaker: 2
53:20
After after after the asteroid impact. Now is association causation?
Speaker: 1
53:26
Not necessarily, but probably makes sense.
Speaker: 2
53:29
There is a new asteroid. Look at there it goes.
Speaker: 4
53:31
This video on the New York Times article, I don’t know how to control the video, so I
Speaker: 2
53:36
just let it read. There are three different asteroids. There are six nine asteroids.
Speaker: 4
53:39
It’s showing here these discoveries. And here in a second, it it’ll show you that, like, how and the ai of the discoveries. It’ll show, like, one day that right here, Ai think it is. They they’ll discover, like, 800 or 900 in the first day.
Speaker: 1
53:52
Oh, boy.
Speaker: 4
53:53
Like, four or 500 more the next day.
Speaker: 1
53:56
Just so bad, meh.
Speaker: 4
53:57
More the next day. But watch how it zooms out here in a second to show you where this is. It gives you, like, a perspective. This is, like, ten days in. Wow. And then it zooms out here again further. Oh, no. So they discovered 2,000 asteroids in that tiny little sliver
Speaker: 2
54:14
right there. I haven’t seen this.
Speaker: 4
54:17
Oh, boy. Whoever made that video, that’s awesome.
Speaker: 2
54:19
Jamie, you’re you’re the master of discovering these things. I ai,
Speaker: 1
54:23
what should people when they sana talk about
Speaker: 2
54:24
It’s in the New York
Speaker: 4
54:24
Times article about the Rubin Telescope that came out probably today or yesterday.
Speaker: 2
54:28
And they’re keeping much of this undercover, so to speak. The scientists are very disciplined. They’re only letting a little bit out at a time.
Speaker: 1
54:34
Keep people from freaking out?
Speaker: 2
54:36
Well, not really to think that. As to they’re trying to be good scientists. They’re trying to assemble the data in a fashion that, you know, they don’t have to redefine later.
Speaker: 1
54:45
So Has this plesioscope recently come online?
Speaker: 2
54:47
Yes. In the past well, it’s been online, I think, for a few months. The data is just being review revealed now. Oh, wow. But I think
Speaker: 4
54:54
3,200,000,000 pixel camera. It’s the largest ever created.
Speaker: 1
54:59
In five years from now, you’ll have that on your phone?
Speaker: 4
55:00
I mean, maybe. I was wondering what kind of lens they made to go on it,
Speaker: 2
55:04
but, ai, it’s the camera. Look at that
Speaker: 1
55:06
thing. That’s insane.
Speaker: 2
55:07
And if they had that telescope out in space, they wouldn’t have the interference of our ai.
Speaker: 1
55:12
But how would you get that thing?
Speaker: 2
55:14
So what ai of a rocket would you need? Go back to those images. This is this is astronomy one zero one. I’m not telling you anything you don’t know necessarily. But all of those stars, all those galaxies are in the past. Mhmm. Hundreds of millions of years ago. We’re just a coincidence of seeing them right now.
Speaker: 1
55:31
Right. Because the light has just reached us.
Speaker: 2
55:32
It was just reaching reaching us. Sai, that’s what’s so fascinating to me. This is a snapshot of multiple histories converging to one point of view. Also,
Speaker: 4
55:42
Voyager one’s about to hit the one light day travel mark, which is a significant mark, but it’s still not that far in the grand scheme.
Speaker: 2
55:51
Sai, when I trip on psilocybin, this is what I love doing. This comprehend trying to comprehend the enormity and the beauty of the universe. I believe the universe is full of love. You know? I think that, you know, we’re built on relationships. And when you have relationships, when you have a quorum of individuals that are sharing assets, you know, you build a community.
Speaker: 1
56:20
Well, you certainly see that with human beings. The the question is what kind of life are we experiencing in these other planets? Like, what what is life for them? Should we be so, naive to think that it went along the exact same linear path as biological life on Earth, or is it completely unrecognizable?
Speaker: 1
56:40
And when, you know, we’re dealing with intelligent life from other planets, maybe they’d be so intelligent they wouldn’t travel, and maybe they don’t need to. And maybe you’re they’re also dealing with solar systems that, you know, we have as a result of multiple impacts, including the creation of Earth itself. Right?
Speaker: 1
56:58
There was Earth and there was Earth two. We were hit by another planet. They think that’s what created the moon, like, all that stuff leaves debris. It’s all flying around.
Speaker: 3
57:08
And if
Speaker: 1
57:08
it wasn’t for Jupiter, we would have never made it this sai. Never made. That’s our protector.
Speaker: 2
57:13
Yep. Absolutely correct.
Speaker: 3
57:14
We
Speaker: 1
57:14
would have never made it to 2025. We would have been dust a long time ago.
Speaker: 2
57:18
And we have a form of biological myopia thinking that we need sunlight and oxygen for life. Right. And now when, you know, from Chernobyl, we know that fungi can use radioactivity
Speaker: 3
57:27
Right. For
Speaker: 2
57:28
as an energy source.
Speaker: 1
57:29
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
57:29
We have methane based organisms.
Speaker: 1
57:31
Yeah. Ain’t that crazy?
Speaker: 2
57:31
Yeah. So Methane based organisms. I believe matter begets life. Life becomes single cells. Single cells form chains. Yeah. They branch. Networks form. Right. And within these networks are associations of members that exchange resources. I I don’t believe that, you know, evolution is based on survival of the fittest.
Speaker: 2
57:52
I believe it’s the evolution is based on the extension of generosity beyond that of your own needs to build a community of of reciprocity.
Speaker: 1
58:02
Certainly human evolution.
Speaker: 2
58:03
I think it’s happening all all over. I think it’s happening with tigers and gizmos. Absolutely. You know, we’re animals. New news. New news. We’re animals.
Speaker: 1
58:11
For sure. But they’re not very generous. They’re just trying they’re just trying to eat and survive.
Speaker: 2
58:16
There’s a great, on Chile, there’s a great footage. It’s amazing of these orcas, AKA, tyler whales, just devastating a speak population eating them. You may have seen this.
Speaker: 1
58:27
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
58:27
And after they were satiated, these orcas would take the pups and they push them up on shore
Speaker: 1
58:35
to save them.
Speaker: 2
58:36
Just to save them.
Speaker: 1
58:36
Well, they’re very intelligent Yeah. Which is one
Speaker: 3
58:38
of the
Speaker: 1
58:39
more interesting things about orcas that they don’t kill people unless they’re at SeaWorld.
Speaker: 2
58:43
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
58:45
Which is probably where they should be killing people.
Speaker: 2
58:47
Yeah. I just met a herpetologist sana, I raised snapping turtles when I was a kid. Sai I have the the turtle necklace. I was just very shy boy with a profound stuttering habit and but my friends arya wild snopping turtles. And this hematologist, he goes, why Ai had snapping turtles?
Speaker: 2
59:03
They’re really mean. And ai I had them in my aquarium and they kept in front of ai me. I go, no shit, Sherlock. You know, I had wild snopping turtles in a pond. And I went down there. I’ve fed them celery and lettuce. This is when I’m eight years old.
Speaker: 2
59:15
I had them for about seven years. I grew up with successive families. And at first, they would try to bite me and things like that. And then I realized if I put out a little salad bowl for them, they wouldn’t fight each other because they’re not gonna try to bite me. They would try, like, I want the carrot from Paul. Right. Right? When I put a little salad bowl there, they kind of all came together and they cooperated.
Speaker: 2
59:34
And so I my one I just reflecting on this yesterday. My one of my fondest memories when I walked towards the pond and
Speaker: 1
59:41
They pop up. Oh, Paul’s here.
Speaker: 2
59:43
Paul’s here.
Speaker: 1
59:44
Oh, that’s so cool.
Speaker: 2
59:45
Yeah. So snapping turtles are have an amazing ability. They can snap flies out of the air.
Speaker: 1
59:49
Oh, they’re so fast.
Speaker: 2
59:50
They’re so fast.
Speaker: 1
59:51
I saw this video of one, eating a fish. They put a fish in front of it ai a dead fish, and it eats it so fast, it just disappears. Mhmm. It just Yeah. It just snaps its neck forward, engulfs this fish, swallows it all, and it looks like a magic trick.
Speaker: 2
01:00:08
Oh ai gosh.
Speaker: 3
01:00:09
You have
Speaker: 1
01:00:09
to look at it in slow mode to even see the actually action of it.
Speaker: 2
01:00:13
There’s so much sea life there. The British British Columbia is just full of sea life. Oh, it certainly is. Amazing.
Speaker: 1
01:00:18
Incredible place.
Speaker: 2
01:00:19
Yeah. And I I love it. I love it being there. So, you know, this is a beautiful planet. Where we live, there’s no garbage. And when visitors come to visit us on our island, I said, have you noticed? There’s no garbage anywhere. Not in this ai not ditches, anywhere. It’s because the ethos of that community is to take care of the ecosystem.
Speaker: 1
01:00:45
That’s beautiful. And that can be done if you have a small community of like minded people.
Speaker: 2
01:00:48
Of like minded people.
Speaker: 1
01:00:49
The real issue is be when it gets to the size of something like New York City, this becomes this diffusion of responsibility where you don’t think that you have to be concerned with all these garbages on the ground because there’s 20,000,000 people walking around. It’s just it is what it is. Keep moving.
Speaker: 2
01:01:03
Or India. I’m just I’m just heart torn by India. Such a spiritual place, and there’s so much garbage. China as well. You know, this is
Speaker: 1
01:01:12
But the India thing is nuts because, it’s also in these areas where a lot of the stuff that people buy that’s inexpensive in America is being manufactured. And then these factories who’s the back of the factory opens to this river, and this river is completely choked with plastic and garbage and just junk.
Speaker: 1
01:01:31
And all the stuff that they don’t want, they just throw into the river, and there’s so much stuff in the river that I guess they just feel like, well, it’s not like I’m polluting something that’s not already polluted. I’m just adding to whatever’s there. This is just what we do. And sai they’ve developed this culture of, like, con constant consistent pollution.
Speaker: 2
01:01:49
Yeah. We all need, you know, even teaching our children constantly to pick up. But there are communities or examples of doing it right.
Speaker: 1
01:01:57
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:01:58
And this community that Ai associated with, I’m just so proud of them.
Speaker: 1
01:02:01
I wanted to talk to you about something that you said earlier because you’re talking about human species and or or or species and love and cooperation and all the different things. And I sai, you uniquely with us, meh, love and random acts of kindness and community are incredibly important.
Speaker: 1
01:02:22
But what do you think why do you think we’re so different than all the other species on the planet? And what do you think that psilocybin like, do you subscribe to McKenna’s theory? I know we’ve probably talked about this before,
Speaker: 2
01:02:33
but talked about it.
Speaker: 1
01:02:33
Ai a stand alone podcast, this is probably
Speaker: 2
01:02:36
This is what I like. And for all your listeners out there, this is a never ending story.
Speaker: 3
01:02:39
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:02:40
It just keeps on getting better. The most exciting thing that has come out in the scientific literature in the past two years is that psilocybin stimulates neurons to grow.
Speaker: 3
01:02:49
Right. That is ai docks on the five HT five
Speaker: 2
01:02:50
HT two what serotonin uses, but psilocybin, also docks with Ram b receptors that lead to proliferation of neurons. There’s there’s neurogeneration, neuroregeneration, neurogenesis, and neuroplasticity. Those are four distinct areas and silicin does all of those, not as much in neurogenesis.
Speaker: 2
01:03:18
But we have done pluripotent stem cells of humans, dosed them with psilocin in the laboratory. We have a DEA license. I have a DEA ai. Very, very strictly controlled, but we can actually see the proliferation of neurons compared to controls. So this is where this is why I want to emphasize to all scientists, especially older scientists shah are stuck in their wisdom, that are very comfortable with their knowledge bryden, and younger scientists come up with these ideas and, you know wanna
Speaker: 1
01:03:49
dismiss them.
Speaker: 2
01:03:50
Yeah. It’s sai is that be more circumspect because what Dennis and and Terrence McKenna postulated, you know, and I disagree with lots of Terrence’s ai. Time wave zero was my my total bullshit. But Terrence and I were very good friends, and we laughed a lot. And that’s why Ai sai spirit of camaraderie where you can criticize someone and laugh at the same time
Speaker: 1
01:04:14
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:04:15
That’s a higher level of intelligence.
Speaker: 1
01:04:17
Well, that’s also what happens when you abandon the ego. Right? Yeah. The ego is consistently abandoned through psychedelic experiences. You’re much more likely to laugh at the same time.
Speaker: 2
01:04:25
I think psilocybin is an Einstein molecule. I think the tryptamines in general are Einstein molecules. The work by Gold Dolan, is just fantastic, also associated with Johns Hopkins of the critical window. And this is why Ibogaine has has gotten some traction. The critical window with Ibogaine is a long window where you’re able to, repattern, your behavior to break addiction. With psilocybin, there’s a critical window.
Speaker: 2
01:04:55
DMT is very, very short because of the short, the short period. The critical window typically is at tip at the peak of the experience and just as you’re over the hump, you know, going down. But one patient described it very, very well, who was an addict. And the patient said before the psilocybin experience, they were literally stuck in a rut.
Speaker: 2
01:05:15
Stuck in a rut, and they visually saw themselves on a ski slope going down the ski slope again and again again, stuck in the rut. Yeah. And then after the psilocybin, it’s like someone groomed the landscape, the hill.
Speaker: 1
01:05:32
And they were free.
Speaker: 2
01:05:33
And they were free to the of to go elsewhere. Yeah. And then Josh Siegel, this past year, from, from Washington University published a study that specifically showed in real time ai, dendritic branchings of neurons are the influence of psilocybin in real time. Ai sai which becomes psilocin, what docks with your receptor, psilocybin stable. Psilocin is not Psilocybin dephosphorylates into psilocin. It crosses into your into your receptors.
Speaker: 2
01:06:05
It goes into it stimulates ai the nucleus of cells that cause cell division. And this is mind boggling. I think this is why high doses of psilocybin, great as for a regulatory experience, for perhaps breaking addiction, but what about the near normals? We all suffer from neurodegeneration that’s age related.
Speaker: 2
01:06:24
Besides Alzheimer’s and other forms of dementia, there are toxin or disease related, in and of itself as a disease you could argue, age being one. But neurodegeneration is a fact of life as we age and neuropathies occur. And then neuropathies from the constriction of the peripheral nervous system, vasoconstriction, etcetera, Psilocin is not only anti inflammatory but neurogenerative.
Speaker: 2
01:06:48
And to have this coupled together, I think that the nootropic vitamins of psilocybin, you know, as a daily consumable is something that has a great future potential. Of course, we need to study this. But long term clinical studies are inherently very expensive. A short time stay in a hospital for one, you know, huge event meh be expensive for that day, but it’s easier to design a clinical study that has a short period than a long period.
Speaker: 2
01:07:16
I think that we’re beginning to sai. Now we think about eight million Americans consume psilocybin in 2023 according to the Ram report. What was the reduction in crime with those eight million people? If we could have studied that.
Speaker: 1
01:07:31
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:07:31
And then and there are retroactive studies, you know, analyses that show a reduction of crime associated with psilocybin use. But in real time, that’s something I’m very excited about. Could you reduce crime rates? And moreover, when you’re immunologically, when you’re depressed emotionally, you’re immunologically depressed.
Speaker: 1
01:07:52
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:07:52
And when you’re happier, you’re more creative, you’re exercising, your immune system is upregulated. Right. So the community immunity from psilocybin Yeah. I think is a huge potential. There’s a crossover directly between your mental your neuro escape and your immune immunological state.
Speaker: 1
01:08:08
Unquestionably. Right? The the diminishing of stress.
Speaker: 2
01:08:12
And this is why
Speaker: 1
01:08:13
benefits physiologically.
Speaker: 2
01:08:14
Yeah. Clinical study just came out, Compass Pathways, you know, did treatment resistant, depression. They had analysis that came back, out that showed modest increase or decrease in depression, but they were doing treatment resistant depression and and, you know, congratulations for them for putting the money the money where their mouth is and did doing the study.
Speaker: 2
01:08:37
But treatment resistant depression is a failure of two antidepressant drug drugs and therapy. And so but major depressive disorder is a much bigger bucket. And so I think there are some extreme conditions that we’re not gonna find the signal from the noise that’s significant enough to make a big difference.
Speaker: 2
01:08:56
But the idea of titrating psilocybin or psilocin, maybe after a hero’s journey, and then by act of re meh, you revisit those same neurological pathways that gave you an advantage ai taking psilocin or psilocybin, the act of taking it again, you’re re meh, and then you can nurture these new neurons.
Speaker: 2
01:09:19
I think psilocybin could be nutrients for the neurons.
Speaker: 1
01:09:22
Mhmm. Well, let’s, in effort to make this a standalone podcast, let’s explain what we’re talking about because what we’re talking about is Terence’s stoned ape theory. And his theory involved a lot of contributing factors, one of them being climate change. And the theory was that as the rainforest receded into grasslands, you get more undulate animals, and they leave behind poop, and that these, lower primates, find these mushrooms, that are growing on the poop and they experiment with them.
Speaker: 1
01:09:55
And that the ones that did increased visual acuity, they became more amorous, they they were more likely to breed, more creative, the ability to form sentences, glossolalia, associate sounds with objects and and and concepts, and that this is probably how language formed among among humans.
Speaker: 1
01:10:15
And Terrence’s connection to that, when you look at the ai of when this was happening, when we know this is happening, which coincides with the growth of the human brain, which over a period of two million years doubled in size, which is pretty phenomenal.
Speaker: 2
01:10:29
Two, yeah, two hundred thousand years, it increased massively. So two million years on the outer on the outer limits, two hundred thousand in the inner inner limits.
Speaker: 1
01:10:38
So in the inner limits, what was the the amount of growth
Speaker: 2
01:10:40
in the two hundred thousand years? I think it was 50%, something something substantial.
Speaker: 1
01:10:44
Two hundred thousand years, 50%.
Speaker: 2
01:10:46
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:10:46
And what time period was this?
Speaker: 2
01:10:48
Well, 200,000 ago.
Speaker: 1
01:10:50
200,000 ago.
Speaker: 2
01:10:51
There’s a Oh, so the jump. And,
Speaker: 1
01:10:53
But, like, Homo sapiens in this form have existed more than two hundred thousand years though. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:10:58
No. No. No. I was saying homo sapiens are are relatively recent. You know, I I I look at the the the estimates go back and forth depending on what experts you’re consulting
Speaker: 3
01:11:09
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:11:09
And whatnot. But the the well, from Homo erectus to Homo sapiens was a was a radical jump that was fairly recent. So
Speaker: 1
01:11:17
I’m understanding the impression was more than 300,000 years ago.
Speaker: 2
01:11:20
It could be it could be 200,000, could be 400,000, but it’s it’s, you know, we are our enlargement of our brain is relatively recent. And to give more context, Dennis McKenna and I were just together. I love that, dude. Dennis McKenna is a fantastic friend and ai, and he’s such a good man.
Speaker: 1
01:11:39
Well, he does such a brilliant job of explaining the mechanism behind the stone ape theory. Yeah. I mean, you know, like, Terrence had a great way of talking. He was so interesting to listen to and had these wonderful ai, but Dennis is, like, much more of a hardcore scientist.
Speaker: 2
01:11:53
Dennis is a ai is a scientist and his brother Breaks it down. Was a philosopher.
Speaker: 1
01:11:57
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:11:58
And the dentist say, McKenna Academy is a nonprofit. I’m I’m just promoting it just because I think they do really, really good work. But this is, you know, the 23 primates eat mushrooms. Almost all mushrooms have maggots in them. Most primates eat maggots. So finding the mushrooms for maggots, for food, for protein, you know, two things can be true.
Speaker: 3
01:12:24
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:12:24
Right? You can find the maggots, eat the mushrooms, and then get high as a community. Right. But all this again, this is an example about the, you know, an example of the art that we sai thousands of years ago. We can debate this in the past, but we can test this. This is a testable hypothesis.
Speaker: 3
01:12:39
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:12:39
It’s a theory now. It’s not a hypothesis. We know that psilocybin stimulates neuron proliferation. Terrence did not have the and Dennis did not have the scientific evidence for that Right. Thirty years ago. We now have the evidence for it now. Terrence and Dennis McKenna should go down in evolutionary biology as the as the two individuals that who could see in the far event horizon way before the scientific method.
Speaker: 2
01:13:04
Mhmm. How did they come up with that? Because they were tripping on mushrooms.
Speaker: 1
01:13:07
Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker: 2
01:13:08
That’s why scientists using psychedelics is a quantum leap. You know, it’s how how PCR was invented for for for Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:13:15
For Meh. For
Speaker: 2
01:13:16
Kerimolas. Yeah. Had a trip on LSD. Yeah. Ram DNA.
Speaker: 1
01:13:20
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:13:20
And Steven Jobs. Yeah. Silicon Valley is fueled by psychedelic thinkers who arya become more creative. And we I I think we have a crisis in creativity, and psilocybin is a way for us to become smarter, more congenial, more collaborative.
Speaker: 1
01:13:35
I couldn’t agree more.
Speaker: 2
01:13:36
You know? And I think we can this ai psychedelics with AI, we have an opportunity for a quantum leap in in the evolution of the human species.
Speaker: 1
01:13:45
Do you mind explaining ai wave zero? Because we kinda glossed over that too. Big ai.
Speaker: 2
01:13:50
Such a skeptic. Ai wave zero is an algorithm that Terrence in one of his stone moments, I think. Terrence is the only person that I met who could smoke me under the table and can stand up and give an incredibly perfect lecture. I don’t know how he could do it. But Ai Zero, and I’m sorry for those people who are TimeWave Zero experts.
Speaker: 2
01:14:11
You can criticize me if you wish, but I Ai my ignorance to a degree. It’s an algorithm that was created that would predict events in history.
Speaker: 1
01:14:18
Would attract novelty.
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01:14:19
Would attract novelty and episodic events that change the course of human history.
Speaker: 1
01:14:24
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:14:24
He didn’t have the birth of Jesus Christ as a significant event. He was sort of anti Christian. I said, Terrence, I don’t care if you’re a Christian or not. The birth of Jesus Christ was a huge freaking phenomenon. It changed the course of history.
Speaker: 3
01:14:37
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:14:38
And then he had, time wave zero would end on 20 12/12/2012, and that’s
Speaker: 1
01:14:44
what he predicted. December 21.
Speaker: 2
01:14:45
Yeah. 12/21/2012. And Yeah. That didn’t happen ai.
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01:14:48
I used
Speaker: 1
01:14:48
to have a license plate that said 122112.
Speaker: 2
01:14:51
Yeah. So but but, you know, it’s what I like about Terrence, and I would encourage all prospective scientists, if you don’t worry about tenure, if you got a thick skin, dare to be wrong. Because you dare to be wrong a dozen, twenty, thirty ai, you might be hitting one or two concepts that is game changing. Right.
Speaker: 2
01:15:12
Don’t let the fear of failure inhibit your creativity.
Speaker: 1
01:15:15
But that’s a giant problem in the academic world is that people who do fail get attacked.
Speaker: 2
01:15:21
And Dishesh.
Speaker: 1
01:15:22
People and especially with they step outside the lines, they propose something that’s novel, they get attacked. This ai leave zero thing, like, you you used to be able to get it. It was an actual program that you could download and you could run it on your own computer.
Speaker: 2
01:15:35
Yeah. And that’s the thing. I talked to Terrence. I go, well, what happens when, you know, ai like the birth of Jesus Christ.
Speaker: 1
01:15:41
Ai up with that concept? Did you ask him about that?
Speaker: 2
01:15:43
No. Ai never figured it out. He goes, well, just adapt the algorithm. I said, okay. Then it’s not really it’s just something that’s constantly adapting itself. So anyhow, it was a it’s a thought experiment. Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:15:56
And, And, obviously, just say I wish he was alive on 12/21/2012. I’d be ai, end? End. And what? But maybe we’re wrong. Maybe in that timeline, something did happen on 12/21/2012 that will be recognized in the future.
Speaker: 2
01:16:11
That there’s I ai it.
Speaker: 1
01:16:12
But Well, this is what I’m we’re getting to. Yeah. One of the things that did happen in that time frame is the ubiquitous use of social media. It ai of started peaking around 02/2012. I think there is a a real problem with that, with with the human race, and I don’t necessarily think we ai things that are constant.
Speaker: 1
01:16:32
You know, I think we just get accustomed to things and human beings are very adaptable, and we just accept things that this is the way it is. But before that time, you know, when you you get to, like, 2009 you know, just go to February. People weren’t carrying their phones around staring at them all day.
Speaker: 1
01:16:48
There’s a profound change in how we interface with the world.
Speaker: 2
01:16:51
You know, in Korea now on the sidewalks, they have red bars that light up to tell you to stop.
Speaker: 1
01:16:58
Oh, boy.
Speaker: 2
01:16:59
Because too many people arya walking out into
Speaker: 1
01:17:00
the street. Just standing there, staring
Speaker: 2
01:17:01
at their phones. Sai now they look down, they see that
Speaker: 1
01:17:04
They’re so addictive. It’s so crazy that we have wreck anything that’s that addictive can’t be good for you. I don’t care if you’re getting information all day long. And and in the sense of social media, you’re getting negative information all day long. So it changes
Speaker: 2
01:17:20
the perspective. Tremendous amounts of click bait.
Speaker: 1
01:17:23
Well, that is the problem we were talking about about the media earlier, about the media fueling this stuff. That’s their job, unfortunately. In this day and age where no one’s buying print journalism, their their job is to get you to click on something. And so they have these crazy headlines.
Speaker: 2
01:17:37
We need to really have a thoughtful discussion about all the issues that we are facing today without being reactionary.
Speaker: 1
01:17:45
Yes. And I think we need to disengage with these things that are clickbait. Just don’t click on them. The way these things operate is the more you click on them, the more valuable they are.
Speaker: 2
01:17:55
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:17:55
Right? That’s that’s the whole business model. Just don’t engage with them. And we need to teach people that. Like, this is an important thing. Don’t engage with something that’s trying to manipulate you. Don’t engage with these narratives that are being put forth by corporations that value your fear.
Speaker: 1
01:18:11
They want you to be in this constant state of anxiety and fear, and you they want you to be a dutiful consumer, and that’s it. And that’s
Speaker: 2
01:18:20
That’s why yeah. Sai high high doses of psilocybin is not a very good, business model
Speaker: 1
01:18:24
Exactly.
Speaker: 2
01:18:25
As ai Michael Pollan likes to say.
Speaker: 1
01:18:26
But it is a good business model for overall human compassion and growth in the community.
Speaker: 2
01:18:32
And then, of course, medium and microdosing, Really popular practice right now, increasingly popular, is a high dose of psilocybin once a year and then microdosing just before you go to sleep or ram medium dose, like the museum dose.
Speaker: 1
01:18:50
Museum dose. I like it.
Speaker: 2
01:18:52
You guys are such
Speaker: 0
01:18:53
you’re such a fucking mushroom head
Speaker: 1
01:18:55
that you have, like, museum doses.
Speaker: 2
01:18:56
Let me museum dose.
Speaker: 3
01:18:57
This is
Speaker: 1
01:18:57
a movie dose. This is a concert dose.
Speaker: 2
01:18:59
The museum
Speaker: 1
01:19:00
dose. Date night dose.
Speaker: 2
01:19:02
Ram Hancock and I and and and and and, and some friends went to a museum, in the British Museum. And, and but, ai, the museum dozers just tend to you can notice them because they wear sunglasses ai. Mhmm. Because ai they’re pupils. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:19:19
So they’re ai to keep it together. Keep it together.
Speaker: 2
01:19:23
But the idea of taking a museum dose, quote, unquote, or a ai before sleep is that’s when you’re regenerating.
Speaker: 1
01:19:29
Uh-huh.
Speaker: 2
01:19:30
That’s when your body and your brain
Speaker: 1
01:19:31
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:19:32
Is regenerating. So that is really, really interesting is taking the those those
Speaker: 1
01:19:37
Well, that makes sense. It makes sense. Especially from, you know, like an anti aging protocol for the mind.
Speaker: 2
01:19:42
And it’s also safer.
Speaker: 1
01:19:44
Yeah. Right? Right.
Speaker: 2
01:19:44
You’re in bed.
Speaker: 1
01:19:45
You’re not going anywhere. You’re not going anywhere. Yeah. Not ai on tractor.
Speaker: 2
01:19:48
That’s why I think clinical studies that look more and more at reducing the expense, having people take the
Speaker: 3
01:19:55
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:19:55
Dose of medicine, the psilocybin in this case, just before sleeping, they’re in a safe place.
Speaker: 3
01:20:01
You know,
Speaker: 1
01:20:02
I had a Bernie Sanders on the podcast yesterday, and one of the things that we talked about quite a bit was, what’s going to happen with people when automation takes over, when AI and automation take over, and so many people are not working anymore. And we we both kind of agree that universal basic income is really the only way to mitigate the disastrous effects of people losing their income, losing their jobs.
Speaker: 1
01:20:29
And Ai think it’s a good thing, but the problem with universal being basic income is that just giving people a check, they don’t have they don’t have meaning anymore. They don’t feel like they have a purpose. They don’t feel like they have an identity. You know, if your your whole life you’ve been, you know, x, whatever the job is that gets taken away, and you ai you’re being really good at your job and you take pride in that and you’re known by your coworkers as, like, hey.
Speaker: 1
01:20:55
Go to Paul. He’s the best. He’s he’ll take care of it. He he knows what he’s doing. Then all of a sudden, that job disappears.
Speaker: 1
01:21:00
How do people find value and how do they switch their perspective? And talking to you today, I think, is perfect because I think if there’s anything that could help us through this journey, that could help people make this transition, which appears to be inevitable, where artificial intelligence is going to do a far better job at a lot of menial tasks that people have been doing for, an occupation for a long ai, to find a search for meaning, to have to find some other way to realize value in ai.
Speaker: 1
01:21:33
And not just to be a cog in the wheel of this capitalist society, but instead, maybe psilocybin would allow people to completely change their perspective of how they exist in this world. And that you’ve been kind of trapped in this society where it values numbers, it values a constant growth for the shareholders, and it it values what what you can see in your bank account vatsal, like, not even real.
Speaker: 1
01:22:02
Sai it’s this digital money that’s somewhere. Maybe psilocybin would be the best answer for how do people make this transition and reacquire a sense of meaning.
Speaker: 2
01:22:15
Right. I mean, do you wanna spend your whole life on an assembly line? Right. Or do you wanna be out more in in nature with your children? Right. That’s why I think nature relatedness, you know, is is a is a mental health advantage. You know, the more that we can relate to nature
Speaker: 3
01:22:28
Yes.
Speaker: 2
01:22:29
And, literally kinda go back to our roots, you know, reengaging nature. I think this is and then
Speaker: 1
01:22:34
And that would give you a sense of purpose. Instead of the job.
Speaker: 2
01:22:38
And also protection Right.
Speaker: 1
01:22:39
Of of
Speaker: 2
01:22:39
the of the mothership.
Speaker: 1
01:22:40
But we’ve gotten so accustomed to this idea that your purpose is to make money. Your purpose is to make a living. And we’ve accepted that, even though it’s a fairly new concept in terms of the age of the Earth. You know, this is a human created concept, but it’s it overwhelms our day to day existence. It doesn’t have to, though, you know.
Speaker: 1
01:23:03
But we in this structure, the way we find ourselves now, you take away meaning, you take away a purpose in life, and you just give people a government check every month that covers everything. Covers your food, covers your rent, covers you don’t need to make money anymore because everything is automated. Everything is cheap. AI controls it all.
Speaker: 1
01:23:21
So The way that
Speaker: 2
01:23:23
What was Bernie’s answer to that?
Speaker: 1
01:23:24
He didn’t have one. Yeah. He didn’t know. But I don’t know if Bernie’s had any experiences in that regard, and he didn’t have that perspective. But talking to you right afterwards might be the answer because this is an inevitable journey that we’re on of of a revolutionary change in how society is structured, but it doesn’t have to be negative.
Speaker: 1
01:23:45
The problem is the people that are in control of AI and these systems, the people that will benefit from them incredibly in a financial sense. Those people are not having these experiences. And if they were having these experiences, they could be the only ones. If you if you have a benevolent person in extreme position of power, they’re probably the only people that can really do something about that. Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:24:11
And I think it’s really important that they hear this, that you realize, like, you’re wasting this valuable moment in life trying to acquire money when we have this very unique opportunity to connect together in a way that people probably used to do on a regular basis in the past, but was always suppressed by the powers that be because of its revolutionary powers.
Speaker: 2
01:24:37
If psilocybin increases creativity and creativity increases happiness and happiness upregulates the, immunity of the community?
Speaker: 1
01:24:45
Yeah. It’s Hard to be a dictator. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta speak the dictators want people in constant conflict fighting against each other and, you know, and they take advantage of that.
Speaker: 2
01:24:55
In a sense, you know, that that analogy that the patients had had about being in a rut. Mhmm. You know? Maybe we’re in a societal rut.
Speaker: 1
01:25:02
Maybe Oh, we certainly are.
Speaker: 2
01:25:03
This is the opportunity as for to be able to groom the landscape and to find new ways of of living and behaving. I I Ai might
Speaker: 1
01:25:13
be the only way. It might be the only way we can get through this. Because if you if you think about what this problem is, the problem is is, the way we interface with reality. That’s really what it is. If if we’re we have been interfacing with reality very particular way, showing up at work every day, doing our job, getting a paycheck, employee of the month, yay, that’s how you interface reality most of your ai.
Speaker: 1
01:25:32
And then all of a sudden, you’re met with this profound technological change that’s gonna eliminate your job. What there needs to be some sort of a profound experience that reintegrates you with the mother. Ai lets you know, like, meh is this is something people made. This is something that people made, and most of the people that made it weren’t having psychedelic experiences.
Speaker: 1
01:25:51
And they’re building cities, and they’re building skyscrapers, and they’re polluting the river, and they’re doing all this stuff, and it doesn’t mean that this is how we’re supposed to do it.
Speaker: 2
01:25:59
Exactly. And I again, I’m gonna reiterate, I think we have a crisis in creativity. I think psilocybin and these other psychedelics stimulate, creativity. Look at
Speaker: 1
01:26:07
No doubt.
Speaker: 2
01:26:08
Look at Alex and Allison Gray’s work.
Speaker: 1
01:26:10
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:26:11
I mean, some of the best psychedelic artists in the world And
Speaker: 1
01:26:14
the nicest people.
Speaker: 2
01:26:15
Ai. The nicest people.
Speaker: 1
01:26:16
Alex is ai like he’s a role model for, like, being, like, being just a kind, nice, sweet person.
Speaker: 2
01:26:22
And Alex gave me some of the the best advice I’ve ever received. And Ai just give Alex a great total credit for this. And I asked him, you know, like, this is my eighth book. Oh ai god. It’s so much work to write a book. I didn’t use any AI writing this book. I wrote the whole thing myself. And I asked, Alex, you know, you’re so prolific. How do you do it?
Speaker: 2
01:26:44
Ai I’ve had one realization. Every day, I go up to that canvas with my brush, and I commit to making one stroke. And then three, four hours later,
Speaker: 3
01:26:57
we
Speaker: 4
01:26:58
still have
Speaker: 2
01:26:58
the canvas.
Speaker: 3
01:26:59
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:26:59
It’s that. Yes. Which is just the The muse. That tipping point. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:27:03
Yeah. Calling the muse.
Speaker: 2
01:27:05
Yeah. Just doing it.
Speaker: 1
01:27:06
And Pressfield talked about that in the war of art. Have you read that book? No. I’ve got copies of it. He sent me a whole box because back in Los Angeles, I used to keep a a stack of them on the table and hand them out to people. It’s all about, creating things and resistance.
Speaker: 1
01:27:19
And this this thing that we all have where we we’re reluctant to sit down and actually do the work, but if you could just commit and he would he calls it the muse. He ai, in many many creative people over time have called upon the muse and this concept. And it sounds like airy fairy to a lot of people, but if you believe in it and if you you actually do that thing where you call upon a muse, it actually works.
Speaker: 1
01:27:44
So whether or not it’s real is irrelevant.
Speaker: 2
01:27:47
Well, I have I have a muse, and ai partner asked me, you know, a few a few months ago, how many more hours do you have to work on this book? She saw me working on work working sana the book for two and a half years, and I said, oh, more than five hundred hours. She goes, five hundred hours?
Speaker: 2
01:28:03
It’s just so much discipline. And if you have anyone any writers of books, any people who built a house, if you comprehended the enormity of the project, you probably wouldn’t even start. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:28:15
Yeah. I can’t think like that.
Speaker: 3
01:28:16
So you just
Speaker: 1
01:28:16
gotta think about the process.
Speaker: 2
01:28:17
The process. And so I have this little voice in my head, that I would wake up and and I didn’t wanna feel guilty about it. But I, you know, I had this little voice saying, work on the book, Paul. Work on the book. Work work on the book. Work on the book. Work on the book. Work on the book.
Speaker: 3
01:28:33
Work on
Speaker: 2
01:28:33
the book. Work on the book. Ai I could say work on the book so fast because I hit every reiterated it in my head Mhmm. Hundreds of times that it became sort of my muse. It became sort of a fun muse. Yeah. I think we all have these little voices that ai, you know, says, you know, get it right, Stamets, you know. Wake up. Ai think so.
Speaker: 2
01:28:49
And And I think that’s good. Ai I don’t think that’s, you know, psychosis. I think that’s something that we all have these little voices that are trying to help us to be better.
Speaker: 1
01:28:59
And Yeah. Whether it’s internal or external, whatever it is, you you can have a voice.
Speaker: 2
01:29:05
It’s like working out. The the discipline of being able to to to make sure that you’re the best that you can be. So it’s a a very exciting tyler that we’re ai, and there’s a mushroom revolution happening all over the planet.
Speaker: 1
01:29:20
I think there’s a a psychedelic revolution that’s happening all over the planet. I think it’s happened over the last twenty years, and I think it’s happened because of the Internet. I think that’s a big factor because what they did in the nineteen seventies by, you know, what the Nixon administration did, which is essentially to squash the civil rights movement and the anti ram movement, what they did really fucked up society for a long tyler.
Speaker: 1
01:29:41
And it put in people’s heads that this is how we’re supposed to be, that these laws that are in place make sense, and that they’re there in order for society to function at its optimal levels. It’s just not true. And, unfortunately, like a lot of things that get that propaganda gets pushed and people start accepting that propaganda as fact, it takes a long time relatively in our lifetimes to sort of recognize that this is not ai, and this is not how we should have been living the entire time.
Speaker: 1
01:30:11
This just is we were trapped. We were trapped in the system. And because of the Internet and because of conversations and because of people like you that talk about this openly and many, many others as well, we’re all contributing to this base of knowledge where people are in their car right now sort of reconsidering their perspective.
Speaker: 1
01:30:29
They’re at at the gym right now, on the treadmill, thinking about this going, yeah, why do why do we allow these human beings that have never had these experiences to tell us that these experiences are not just not allowed, but if you get caught with these things, you’ll be put in a cage.
Speaker: 2
01:30:47
Yeah. Well, because we are we are those of us from the psychedelic community who advocate for the freedom of consciousness as a basic civil right. We are ai definition disruptors to authoritarianism. Yeah. So, you know, this is what this is why I think, unfortunately, in many cultures, it become restricted to just a small group of priests or the cognoscente they wanted to control Right.
Speaker: 2
01:31:10
And have gates to, to heaven Yeah. Toward the the control consciousness. And sai I’m I think that, you know, what’s so exciting about psilocybin and psilocybin mushrooms as a practice and honey mushrooms in general, it just gives you a quality of life that’s just a game changer.
Speaker: 1
01:31:29
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:31:29
Now with iNaturalist and everything that you can do, it’s just getting people out in nature with their children. Children are closer to the ground, so they find more mushrooms. Yeah. They’re you know, they’re away from the business and their parents and the phones, you know, some phones.
Speaker: 2
01:31:44
But you get them involved and, and inter interacting with nature is just, it just really it’s like the telescope then, seeing all the galaxies sana
Speaker: 1
01:31:56
I think interacting with nature is a vitamin. Yep. I think it’s just it’s like you know how we get vitamin d from the sun? I think we get something that hasn’t been measured yet from interacting with nature. We we know that there’s an alleviate you can you can actually study, you know, an alleviation of stress levels from people that go out into nature.
Speaker: 1
01:32:15
And this this thing that we’re experiencing, we just don’t know how to measure it. Yep. You know, and I I think it’s a real thing. One of the things that makes me very happy and hopeful now is that you’re seeing this, this openness to psychedelics that’s coming from more right wing people.
Speaker: 1
01:32:36
And it was always a thing of the left. It was always a thing of hippies and and it was dismissed by people on the right as people that were trying to avoid reality. They were trying to, you know, escape reality. They couldn’t handle reality. They weren’t disciplined.
Speaker: 1
01:32:53
They weren’t, you know if they were hardworking people, they wouldn’t be wasting their time getting high on drugs. There’s that thought. I think one of the bridges to that is the benefit that it’s had for soldiers. For soldiers and for people that are first responders, people that suffer from PTSD, and that has trickled down into the general population of the people on the right, which is how you get a guy like Rick Perry, who’s all of a sudden, becoming this very strong advocate for Abigail and having it passed in Texas.
Speaker: 1
01:33:23
So the the initiative passed, which is huge.
Speaker: 2
01:33:26
It’s huge. I’m Ai But it’s
Speaker: 1
01:33:27
a it’s a promising step in the direction of understanding that a lot of the division that we have in this country is artificial. It’s manufactured.
Speaker: 2
01:33:35
It is. I out of the blue, country music singer, which I had no idea who she was, Kacey Musgraves. She’s sai superstar in country music.
Speaker: 1
01:33:44
About a loop.
Speaker: 2
01:33:46
Ai she reached out to meh, and, she had a psilocybin experience that inspired her. She’s has an album called Deeper Well that’s just amazing. I was not in the country music until I listened to her. And she reached out to me because of her psilocybin experience, and we rent we decided to do Sing for Science.
Speaker: 2
01:34:05
We sold out the Ryman Theater in Nashville in three hours.
Speaker: 1
01:34:09
Oh, wow.
Speaker: 2
01:34:09
2,500 people. These are country music people. Yeah. 2,500 people, three hours. Unfortunately, she was in Mexico. She fell and she broke her rib, so we had to cancel the concert until September 18 or the Sing for Ai. But that’s just an example.
Speaker: 1
01:34:24
And Yeah. Well, I think my friend Sturgill Simpson sort of opened up the door for psychedelics and country music with Turtles All the Way Down. Yep. You know, he basically wrote a song about God and psychedelics.
Speaker: 2
01:34:35
It’s, you know, I That
Speaker: 1
01:34:37
was a country song. And everybody’s like, hey, what the hell is going on?
Speaker: 2
01:34:42
It’s funny because psychedelics, build bridges that marijuana doesn’t. It’s, it’s I met a lot of people who would never smoke a joint, but the idea of doing a psilocybin mushroom sound like fun to them. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:34:53
So Well, marijuana is also associated with lazy people and ne’er do wells and stinky people with bad ideas, you know, unfortunately. And I think, you know, look, there’s a a one of the things that’s interesting is the jiu jitsu community is, there’s a whole lot of stoners in the jiu jitsu community.
Speaker: 2
01:35:15
A lot of people using psychedelics for athletic performance.
Speaker: 1
01:35:17
Oh, yeah. Well, I know a bunch of people who fought on mushrooms. Yeah. You know? I have a friend who was a world class kickboxer who had some of his greatest performances while he’s fighting on mushrooms. And he said he could see what the guy was gonna do before he did it.
Speaker: 2
01:35:30
Yeah. This is a the indigenous use of psilocybin is to see into the future. That’s one of the thing of advantages Sai think I’ve had also,
Speaker: 3
01:35:37
and
Speaker: 2
01:35:37
able to prognosticate, into the future. There’s a there we had this extraordinary individual, told me a story, which I I think I have right, but I’m gonna share it with you. There’s a game that’s very common. It’s even in The Philippines, but in Canada, it’s a German game meh.
Speaker: 2
01:35:54
And the idea is you put nails on a a block of wood and use an ice speak, And you have to hammer the nail in with one hit. And each time in a bar or a party or whatever, people throw down money, $5, $20, etcetera.
Speaker: 1
01:36:11
A nail on an ice pick. So you have the point of the ice pick. You gotta hit that nail
Speaker: 2
01:36:15
at the very point. It.
Speaker: 1
01:36:16
And sink it all
Speaker: 2
01:36:16
the way into the wood. Sai, of course, you you go around, people are drinking, etcetera. So the story, as I remember him telling me, is that he went to the bathroom. He’s not a toker. He doesn’t smoke pot. But someone said, hey. You want some mushrooms? And they’re playing this game. And there was a a bunch of his friends were gathered and and he goes, oh, sure. I’ll try some mushrooms.
Speaker: 2
01:36:36
So he ate some mushrooms and he came back. And he’s the the circle of Zara and people are betting, hey. Come over and join us join us. You know? And he watched for a ai, never had played this game, and and then he started getting higher and higher. And they ai, come on. It’s your turn.
Speaker: 2
01:36:52
So he kinda looked at the nail. I mean, this is really hard to do. I know. Looked at the nail and looked at the nail and focused on he said he had such clarity of focus that everything else would blank out. He looked at the nail, and he just thought they would connect. Rather than hitting it, they would just connect. Oh. Bam. Slam the nail down on the first attempt.
Speaker: 2
01:37:15
People went, woah. Incredible. So they put down each person put down more money going around. So they came around. Everyone’s missing. Everyone’s missing.
Speaker: 2
01:37:22
Some people occasionally hit it a little bit, you know, but came around came around to him. Now he’s getting higher on the mushrooms. Right? And he’s looking at it looking at it, and he goes, bam. Slams it again. People going, no way. Right? This is impossible. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:37:38
So now now and there’s a lot of money being piled up on the table here. They’re coming around and everyone’s going, impossible. Not gonna happen. Can’t do it a third time in a row. Looked at it laser focused. Kabam. Slam it again. Now people are losing their shit. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:37:55
They’re like, what is going on here? And he sai he said, they’re really def fuck with one guy who was just out of his mind that he could do this three times in a row. He went around again, and this ai, he says, I’m gonna really blow his mind. So he focused on the nail, focused on nail, had the hammer, looked at him, bam, slammed it again.
Speaker: 1
01:38:14
While he’s looking at it.
Speaker: 2
01:38:15
Nailed it. Yeah. Literally nailed it. So so these examples of
Speaker: 1
01:38:20
Well, that brings you to the saloni dape theory.
Speaker: 2
01:38:21
Well, it’s the idea.
Speaker: 1
01:38:22
Part of the concept.
Speaker: 3
01:38:23
Well, part
Speaker: 2
01:38:23
of the concept is you, you know, with intense focus. Right. You know, and many years, I’ve I’ve I have Ai have two black belts. I had schools for thirty years, black belt in Taekwondo and Hwarang do. I was in Shodokan, Shidoru, Goju Ryu, and then Taekwondo and then Hwarang do, which is like Hapkido. But that idea of having a three-dimensional perspective. Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:38:48
One of my best one of my fun experiences, I was in the Dojang or Dojo, Japanese Dojang. Yeah. It’s Korean. And, Ai had my first black belt and and, my head and the structural observer were talking talking vatsal someone, and then he had a baseball. And he he and I heard later what he said. He goes, I told my friend, watch this. He threw a baseball at me. My peripheral vision, boom.
Speaker: 2
01:39:14
I just caught the baseball and, you know, just before it hit my head. But that idea of having that consciousness surrounding
Speaker: 3
01:39:21
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:39:21
That’s why athleticism with the medium doses, minor doses of psilocybin, I think you can train, your neurons
Speaker: 1
01:39:29
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:39:30
To be able to have this peripheral awareness that’s extremely important.
Speaker: 1
01:39:34
It also alleviates the anxiety that comes before performance. There’s a lot of people like to use it before sparring because sparring is is kinda scary for some people.
Speaker: 2
01:39:45
Yeah. But let’s be clear. This is ai the eighty twenty principle, maybe the ninety ten principle. It’s not gonna work for the majority of people. There are exceptional individuals who can actually benefit from this. I’m not
Speaker: 1
01:39:55
we’re not sai disclaimer.
Speaker: 2
01:39:56
Yeah. No. No.
Speaker: 3
01:39:56
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
Speaker: 2
01:39:57
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
Speaker: 1
01:40:02
No they’re fascinating. And I
Speaker: 2
01:40:10
And anecdotes stories are ai case studies in medicine.
Speaker: 3
01:40:12
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:40:13
Do you get enough of them that you wanna test this? Again, this is a testable hypothesis or theory in modern times.
Speaker: 1
01:40:20
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:40:21
Eye hand coordination.
Speaker: 1
01:40:22
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:40:23
You know? So psychomotor enhancement, you know? And Yeah. This is why when you know, the Stamets speak is it speaks to this. We published in Nature Scientific Reports and a combination of psilocybin, niacin, and lion’s mane increased psychomotor ability of tapping in ten seconds from 46 to 66 taps.
Speaker: 1
01:40:41
That’s a lot.
Speaker: 2
01:40:42
That’s a lot in in in ten seconds Right. Over thirty days. So people can argue about it, but the results are the results. You know, when you’re talking about depression and anxiety, that’s subjective. But I’m really interested in the psychomotor benefits of psilocybin with an admixture to enhance
Speaker: 3
01:41:00
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:41:00
You know, its performance. I think the root thing is psilocybin, and being able to regenerate neurons is something Ai think is really important, for us. Now with glioblastoma, you know, which unfortunately, Terrence did die from that. That is uncontrolled, you know, proliferation of neurons in the brain. Yeah. There’s sure there’s contraindications.
Speaker: 1
01:41:20
Something that’s connected to that is
Speaker: 2
01:41:23
No. Not. I personally don’t. No.
Speaker: 1
01:41:24
Why not?
Speaker: 2
01:41:26
Just because Ai ai, I I don’t have evidence to the contrary. I don’t have evidence that also suggests that. I sai no correlation. N of one is not, you know, it’s again, it’s it’s not Well,
Speaker: 1
01:41:40
because it’s not a common thing amongst people that are using Yeah. Psilocybin.
Speaker: 2
01:41:44
But if you had 8,000,000 people in United States, you know, condensing psilocybin, again, you have a data set. Uh-huh.
Speaker: 1
01:41:50
Right. So, like, it’s not like cigarettes. Right? We see cigarettes, we know. You smoke cigarettes, there’s a higher likelihood that you’re gonna get lung cancer. Right? It’s very clear. So we’ve known that over time. The problem with psilocybin is it’s been so taboo, and so we don’t have real data.
Speaker: 1
01:42:06
We don’t have, you know
Speaker: 2
01:42:08
But there’s 235 clinical studies on psilocybin at clinicaltrials.gov right now.
Speaker: 1
01:42:14
Isn’t that amazing?
Speaker: 2
01:42:15
235.
Speaker: 1
01:42:16
Could you have imagined that twenty five years ago?
Speaker: 2
01:42:18
There was none. Impossible. Yeah. None. And there are ram many indications, many different targets ram addiction, cigarettes, you know, alcohol, opioid use, to dementia, to Parkinson’s, to Alzheimer’s, etcetera.
Speaker: 1
01:42:32
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:42:33
So there’s you know, I think psilocybin has a PR problem. It sounds too good to be true. But, you know, sometimes things can be true that have but but the reason why I think that there’s 235 clinical studies is because, basically, it’s improving your neuro escape. You’re improving the neurology. Everything that we’re using right now is based to our health of our nervous system.
Speaker: 3
01:42:55
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:42:55
And in neuroscape, if we can enrich the neuroscape, then that has elaborations into everything that we do. And the fact is coupled with anti inflammatory activities and neurogenesis and neuro regeneration, neurogenation, neuroplasticity, which is synoptogenesis. The neurons proliferate and then they shake hands, and then suddenly you have a new pathway. So There’s anti inflammatory properties? Solicin has strong anti inflammatory properties. Interesting.
Speaker: 2
01:43:23
So that’s that’s just has come out in the scientific literature. So that’s I
Speaker: 1
01:43:29
wasn’t aware of that.
Speaker: 2
01:43:30
Yeah. That’s really interesting.
Speaker: 1
01:43:31
How did they study that? And and what was the
Speaker: 2
01:43:34
the They have something called interleukin six. There was a clinical study that was just published just recently and a downregulated, you said, tumor necrosis factor, interleukin sai, a down regulated acid and inflammatory cytokine. There’s two anti inflammatory cytokines that are extraordinarily interesting to us sana our research team. I have five PhD scientists, eight full time scientists.
Speaker: 2
01:43:58
That’s why I created my businesses to do research. But interleukin, 10 and interleukin one r a are are anti inflammatory cytokines. So when you can up regulate those, then it ai buffers the inflammatory effects. Mhmm. And so that’s exciting to find, these anti inflammatory that that’s we were approved by the FDA for a COVID clinical trial Based on the fact that we published this in the Journal of Inflammation Research that, interleukin 10 and interleukin one r a were stimulated by agarikon and turkey tail mycelium, grown on rice versus the rice control.
Speaker: 2
01:44:38
So it was a peer reviewed arya. When, you know, the pandemic started, the big concern was if you stimulate the immune system, you could have a cytokine storm, and you could overwhelm, you know, the body with many as we said, many, if not most, people die from cytokine storm.
Speaker: 2
01:44:57
Is there a overreaction of their immune system, to to COVID and to other diseases? So we were able to show you can augment in the literature, your immune system buffered with the anti inflammatory, properties. And that that could sort of resolve the argument of the of the cytokine storm concern. Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:45:19
And then now we have a very successful study that shows that agarikon and turkey tail mycelium, enhances the immunity of individuals long term.
Speaker: 1
01:45:32
Meh that’s a mushroom that you gave me.
Speaker: 2
01:45:34
Yeah. You still have that.
Speaker: 1
01:45:35
Yeah. It’s right there.
Speaker: 2
01:45:36
That’s a trophy.
Speaker: 1
01:45:37
Yeah. Oh, it’s never leaving the desk. That sucker.
Speaker: 2
01:45:41
And this is a a great example because this is an endangered species In Europe, I ai talking about list of extinction.
Speaker: 1
01:45:48
In Europe, it is?
Speaker: 2
01:45:49
In Europe, these are growth rings. So this one’s probably 25 years old. This is a very nice specimen. Stan Stamets gave you this. Yes.
Speaker: 1
01:45:56
Stanlock, you gave me this, buddy.
Speaker: 2
01:45:57
The nicest specimen is. So these are annual growth rings.
Speaker: 1
01:46:00
Isn’t it cool to see
Speaker: 3
01:46:01
it on
Speaker: 1
01:46:01
the desk?
Speaker: 2
01:46:01
I ai it. Thank you.
Speaker: 1
01:46:02
People always ask, what the hell is that?
Speaker: 2
01:46:04
So this is a garracon called Phomitopsis officinalis, also known as larysophomies. Dioscorides first described in Greek medicine two thousand years ago as elixirium adlongum vitum, the elixir of long life.
Speaker: 1
01:46:17
If someone took a little piece of that and put it in the ground, would it start making new agaricond mushrooms?
Speaker: 2
01:46:22
If they had spores, it looks like it goes inside the roots of trees. This one being as old as it is being, its spores arya probably become not viable. But agarikon has the white form and the brown form. It goes through this massive transition of biochemistry. And because it’s endangered and because ai variable in form, fruit body extracts of this makes no sense.
Speaker: 1
01:46:46
Why is it endangered in Europe and not in America?
Speaker: 2
01:46:48
Only grows in old growth forests. Oh. So the Ai Islands in Europe, in Austria, Slovenia, is is where this still can be found on larch trees. We now have, I think, a 115 strains of agarachon, by far the largest library in the world. If you ask me what is my most valuable possession, it’s my strain library of agarachon. It’s the it’s, you know, it’s a it’s a treasure of strains.
Speaker: 2
01:47:17
One out of 21 out of a 100 times in the old growth forest will I find one. So we don’t collect these unless it’s gonna be clear cut or we find them on the ground or if it’s on my own property. And then I take a small piece of tissue. It’s the mycelium that is bioactive for the immune system, and this is what we found that we’re it’s scalable.
Speaker: 2
01:47:39
The mycelium is scalable. The fruit body extracts are not, and it’s highly variable. Most people don’t know that well, they should know, but most mushrooms are parasitized by insects. And and that’s because the insects spread spores. So the mushrooms invite insects to come in.
Speaker: 3
01:47:54
So
Speaker: 2
01:47:55
it can spread spores.
Speaker: 1
01:47:56
It’s like Like cordyceps sana ants.
Speaker: 2
01:47:57
Yeah. Or ai buzz pollination.
Speaker: 1
01:48:00
That’s the weirdest thing. When you see spiders and ants overwhelmed by cordyceps.
Speaker: 2
01:48:04
Yeah. It’s, I like to sai, cordyceps has to eat too.
Speaker: 1
01:48:07
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is the cycle of life. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:48:10
So this Agarikon is is in the BioShield biodefense program.
Speaker: 1
01:48:15
We Which, by the way, this is your company, Host Defense. You have great stuff, man. I I buy your stuff. Thank you. You gave me a bunch of it, but I buy it.
Speaker: 2
01:48:24
Well, thank you for your support. We need it. I mean, I’m the only company that does research that I know of. I speak over a million dollars a year in fundamental research. Thinking outside of the box, even though traditional Chinese medicine is fantastic and has, like, thousands of year history, all traditional medicines advance with new technologies.
Speaker: 2
01:48:45
That’s true across the board. The invention of in vitro propagation about a hundred years ago, growing mycelium, now opens up this huge opportunity for us to dive into a deeper well of natural substances that can be used as adjunct therapies to enhance conventional medicine.
Speaker: 2
01:49:05
It’s a game changer. So a 115 strains of Agaric, and I submitted eight of them to the BioShield BioDefense Ram after 09/11/2004. My Ai talk talks about this. And I found two or three strains highly active against smallpox and also against bird flu. And if you go to National Public Radio, put Stamets and Smallpox, you’ll see a vetted press release, you know, from DOD and the head of the BioShield program, Jack Sikress, saying that, whoops, these are some of the most significant results they’ve ever seen.
Speaker: 2
01:49:34
Wow. The only 2,000,000 samples submitted were in the top 10, the only natural product. Now that’s in vitro. So that in vitro, this is sort of a ai. And you don’t have Boy with a microphone, do you, Jamie?
Speaker: 1
01:49:47
What is that?
Speaker: 2
01:49:47
You didn’t see it? Okay.
Speaker: 1
01:49:48
What is Boy with a Microphone?
Speaker: 2
01:49:50
It’s a forty two second clip we found in the vault, and it talks it’s me with my son when he’s four years old, and I’m on the phone saying, I’ve created this company to do research. Research is what we wanna do. Truly, that’s the origins of what I was trying to why I created my business. Sai I still do that.
Speaker: 2
01:50:08
So with the 115 strains, we’re likely to have a super strain, in our collection. Pandemics are coming all the time. We’re in a viral storm. There’s a bird flu pandemic where many of us are so surprised that it has not happened at a bigger level. But viral pandemics are also affecting other animals besides birds and and pigs. Mhmm. Sixty seven percent of beehives were lost in Montana this past year. Sixty seven percent.
Speaker: 2
01:50:36
Imagine if you had 67% loss of a herd of cattle or sheep. That’s phenomenal.
Speaker: 3
01:50:42
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:50:42
And bird flu is spreading. It’s making the jumps. It is coming, folks. And so what we want to do is design a clinical study using a Carrotcon to test against bird flu.
Speaker: 1
01:50:53
I’d be interested to see what, if anything, could be done with some of these mushrooms with chronic wasting disease, which is a huge concern among deer population and and even some other animals ai moose and I think
Speaker: 2
01:51:08
We’re embedded into a mycelium landscape. Mycelium is everywhere. The interactions of mycelium and animals, you know, is elaborate, complex. This is crazy. And if anyone out here can prove me wrong, please send me the reference. But it appears Ai the first person to realize that bees go to rotted log for the mycelium for immunological benefit.
Speaker: 1
01:51:33
Really?
Speaker: 2
01:51:33
First person. How is that possible? We all grew up with Winnie the Pooh. I mean, this is mind boggling because, like, again, hiding us it didn’t take a stroke of genius. But in my case, the BioShield results, and then I heard about colony collapse being vectored primarily by mites.
Speaker: 2
01:51:48
This past year, they identified the miticide resistant mites, which most all of them are now, are vectors of the deformed wing virus. Colony collapse is a threat to food biosecurity, and we found and we published this in Nature Ai Reports, extra troponopore mushroom mycelium protects bees from viruses.
Speaker: 2
01:52:10
We published that in the in Nature Scientific Reports, I’m the primary author. We were able to reduce viruses, the deformed wing ai, by, like, eight hundred and seventy nine times in twelve days with one treatment. So that is phenomenal for protecting food biosecurity. That helps all farmers.
Speaker: 2
01:52:28
It helps and there’s a pandemic that’s spreading sixty seven percent loss, sixty percent loss generally across The United States this year. The worst colony collapse on in history. This will make food prices go up, and it doesn’t stop because these viruses are proliferating throughout the environment.
Speaker: 2
01:52:44
We found that the polyporea mushroom mycelium grown on grain or grown on sawdust not only reduces these viruses but extends longevity. And so the longevity and interesting that this mushroom is known as elixirium adlongvitum, the elixir of long life. Wow. We are all animal bees are animals, birds are animals, you know, pigs are animals, humans are animals.
Speaker: 2
01:53:06
We are all, I think, could have an immunological benefit from, you know, in in incorporating these these fungi. Now we’re allowed by the f d FDA to say supporting innate immunity in healthy individuals. We’re not allowed to make any disease claims. Ironically, we can’t make that same claim with bees. We can say extends longevity, but this is where there’s not common sense in government.
Speaker: 2
01:53:33
I have an invention that could save hundreds of billions of of of dollars that protect bees from colony collapse, and we’re roadblock by regulation constantly. Oh, reduce ai in bees. You have antiviral drug. What is that? No. We haven’t been able to find the antiviral drug.
Speaker: 2
01:53:50
We think it’s sai entourage effect, an upregulating, you know, basic immunity. And then your endogenous immune system, in this case of the bees, can fight the viruses. So and this, I think, will translate into birds, into swine.
Speaker: 1
01:54:05
So there’s resistance to these results?
Speaker: 2
01:54:08
No. Because your immunity is so complex.
Speaker: 1
01:54:11
Ai mean publicly. Like you’re saying
Speaker: 2
01:54:14
There is. You can’t
Speaker: 1
01:54:15
make these claims, but if you have results
Speaker: 2
01:54:17
We have fantastic results. I refer anyone to scientific, you know, to Nature Ai Reports.
Speaker: 3
01:54:22
So could
Speaker: 1
01:54:23
you elaborate on what the resistance is?
Speaker: 2
01:54:26
Well, the resistance is is complicated and is political. The old school conventional wisdom is that if you have a drug like effect, then you have an undeclared drug in your product.
Speaker: 1
01:54:42
Isn’t that funny?
Speaker: 2
01:54:43
Yeah. Nature Even though even though it’s from nature, even though bees go to wild logs for immune benefit, and now there’s five or six papers that have been published on this after my discovery, showing that bees are doing this. Their bees are actually benefiting from mushroom mycelium. So we’re we’re working with Washington State University, great people there. We’re working with several funders.
Speaker: 2
01:55:05
We have tested this now over and over again. This is a this is a outdoor animal clinical study, double ai, placebo controlled, using the mycelium grown on rice or on sawdust versus the sawdust or the rice as a control, clearly clearly a benefit. So this is scalable. You can’t harvest fruit bodies in a way that you can scale mycelium. Mycelium is exponential increase in mycelial mass virtually every speak.
Speaker: 2
01:55:34
It’s 10 times 10 times 10 times 10 or even 10 times a 100 times a 100 times a 100. It’s massively scalable. I think I have found something as a portal through my psychedelic experiences that’s fundamental to protecting life on this planet. Is that the mycelial networks are deep reservoirs of being able to immunologically enhance animals where we don’t have to have these all these antiviral drugs, antibiotic drugs.
Speaker: 2
01:55:58
Your endogenous immune systems are upregulated because over hundreds of millions of years, we’ve been interacting with these. It’s our immuno depression and suppression because of all the factors we know, bad ai, toxins, you know, you know, lifestyle, all those things, that this is ai scalable.
Speaker: 2
01:56:15
So now we’re trying to navigate through the regulatory landscape. There was a strange committee that was in secret, met once a year for any new ingredient to add to bees because bees make honey. Humans can sai honey. If we use our product, they could sai, we have an undisclosed drug in the honey. So whatever. But it also translates to wild bees.
Speaker: 2
01:56:36
It turns out that Apis mellifera, the honeybee, with the viruses when they have the viruses, they go to flowers frequented by bumblebees. So colony collapse is happening not only with the cultivated honeybee, but it speak to other bees. This is an ecological catastrophe of a viral pandemic that’s spreading around the world. We have the solution right now.
Speaker: 2
01:56:58
It’s highly scalable, and this regulatory committee disappeared in the past two years. This is before the last administration was voted in, but they didn’t tell anybody. So we had an application with them for two years to have this exempt meh gone. The whole committee’s gone. It didn’t even tell us that it was gone.
Speaker: 2
01:57:16
So we’ve had two years spending our thumbs waiting for them to respond. This is where we need to have common sense to come back into government. This is where our government has too many hurdles to practical solutions that are demonstrable, scalable, and affordable that can the return on investment is massive, and yet we fear the FDA.
Speaker: 2
01:57:37
We fear the USDA because they are stuck in a rut, literally. Maybe they could use psilocybin here to expand their horizons because they wanna know the mode of action or the mechanism of action. Well, we didn’t know meh mechanism of of action of aspirin until the nineteen seventies, but it had a benefit.
Speaker: 2
01:57:56
If it has a clear benefit and does not cause harm, then they should be exempted for scalability. Now there’s another factor to this, which is wonderful. There’s a new startup company called Quorum ai my friend Chris Kaczowitsch, disclosure, you know, I’m I’m involved with them, but they have a meh, a fungus that kills mites.
Speaker: 2
01:58:16
So it’s also been approved by the USDA for thrips and other greenhouse insects. It’s not toxic to fish, not toxic to humans. So the combination of using meh with the agarikon agarikon and other polypore mushroom mycelium, we think has a great potential future. So, I I think there’s a lot of resources in nature that can augment conventional agricultural practices. There’s a lot of resources in nature that can augment conventional medical practices.
Speaker: 2
01:58:48
They are not necessarily an opposition. What is an opposition, unfortunately, and you’ve alluded to this, is a lot of the pharmaceutical business interests are not excited about a natural product, reducing the need for vaccines, augmenting immunity. There is money in disease.
Speaker: 1
01:59:09
Right. That that’s always the problem. Money.
Speaker: 2
01:59:12
You can tell him Ai passionate about this because I have such a deliverable, provable solution that’s scalable.
Speaker: 1
01:59:18
I wonder if
Speaker: 2
01:59:19
And I’m so ai article was published in 02/2018, and I tell my research team, you know, WTF, we are meeting with WSU constantly. And now we have renewed interest, thankfully, because of some big stakeholders in the almond industry. And every almond you eat was visited a flower was visited by a bee.
Speaker: 2
01:59:38
The almond industry is in crisis right now, but it’s not almonds. It’s apples. It’s cherries. It’s across the board right now. Agriculture has been severely affected by these viral pandemics, and these same viral pandemics are mitigated, I believe, in commonality with these polypore mushrooms that grow in the woods.
Speaker: 1
01:59:55
I wonder if that would also help animal agriculture because, like, the ubiquitous use of antibiotics is a real concern with people, with with cows and with chickens and
Speaker: 2
02:00:04
We had the there’s a viral pandemic of a form of bird flu, an h five n one, but another bird flu. I can’t remember. I think it was h seven and two, in Iowa and Minnesota about ten years ago. They were euthanizing millions and millions of chickens and turkeys and ducks. You can look this up. There’s organic farm, and we gave one quarter of a gram of gueracan mycelium per chicken in their feed.
Speaker: 2
02:00:30
And we became our that chicken there’s two big chicken hens, about 20,000, layers, birds that lay eggs, and it became an oasis of immunity. Those chickens were immune from bird flu. Wow. A quarter of a gram of those mycelium Wow. And we protected them.
Speaker: 1
02:00:51
That’s incredible.
Speaker: 2
02:00:52
But a crazy thing happened. The USDA, had an insurance policy to pay the chicken growers, and they and the chicken growers quickly learned that they could get an insurance check, lay off the employees, get the cash ram lost profits, and so they were not incentivized.
Speaker: 1
02:01:10
Yeah. I’ve I’ve heard that from people that are deeply connected to that industry that there was a bunch of euthanizations. It didn’t have to happen.
Speaker: 2
02:01:16
Didn’t have to happen. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:01:17
And they did it. And they they inflated this whole concept, you know, because they the the numbers got grossly inflated because they were euthanizing chickens for profit.
Speaker: 2
02:01:27
Yeah. Bird flu is is very serious serious issue. Now I know vaccines are very hot subject, and I know you’ve spoken on that. You’ve had some excellent guests, by the way. Excellent guests or researchers on this. But I just wanna give a a thoughtful discussion between viruses and vaccines.
Speaker: 2
02:01:50
Which is worse, the virus or the vaccine? I’m a libertarian. I believe every family, every individual has a right to make an informed decision. The problem that I see with the vaccine industry, the industrial vaccine, you know, complex, is a failure to disclose. I don’t think Americans are stupid.
Speaker: 2
02:02:16
I think Americans become stupid when they’re not informed. My partner’s a f as a physician, she goes, giving hep b vaccines to a child makes no sense. It’s a sexually transmitted disease. Why are you giving a vaccine to a 10 year old? Right. Or a baby. Or a baby.
Speaker: 2
02:02:34
And in med school, when anyone would mention that, why are we doing this? They were vilified. Right. Ai. Shut down. It’s ai, what happened to thoughtful good science?
Speaker: 2
02:02:43
It’s just a reasonable question.
Speaker: 1
02:02:44
Money happened. It’s also these vaccine manufacturers are immune to the financial consequences of the side effects.
Speaker: 2
02:02:53
Absolutely. We need to have full disclosure.
Speaker: 1
02:02:55
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:02:56
Now let me go through a thought experiment.
Speaker: 1
02:02:57
Okay.
Speaker: 2
02:02:58
Listen. This is my opinion. Other people may just visually disagree with meh. But let’s do there’s two thought experiments I wanna do. First 1,000,000 lives were saved with the vaccine. One person dies. Hey. You took it for the home team. Sorry. One person dies out of a hundred thousand.
Speaker: 2
02:03:18
Still ratio is pretty good. My mind, my judgment, sorry. Again, you took it for the home team. One out of ten thousand. Okay. Still, the ratio is pretty good.
Speaker: 2
02:03:29
Okay. One out of thousand. Okay. One out of 100, you’re making me nervous. One out of 10, no. That’s where I draw the line. I would say forget it.
Speaker: 2
02:03:37
That’s now the the contradiction that we have, the opposing forces here that we have, is that is it better for society to have vaccinations to protect the commons, or is it better for you to have an individual decision for your family to protect yourself if you want to? If you are gonna make that decision, you should have an informed decision Right. Based on the best of science.
Speaker: 2
02:04:07
All vaccines and all companies should disclose what is the percentage of protection. I have a physician friend who says 30% protection, but I’m sick for four or five days. I don’t know. That’s not worth it. 70% production? Okay. Alright. You know?
Speaker: 2
02:04:28
So everyone has to balance the risk benefit ratio
Speaker: 1
02:04:32
that is real data to be able
Speaker: 2
02:04:33
to discuss real data. We need full disclosure. Right. And for anyone to accuse another physician and vilify them because they ask a logical question and they’re humiliated by the medical community is fundamentally unfair. What happened with good ai? You have to follow the ai, and this is so important.
Speaker: 2
02:04:53
And that’s why I think we’re getting this cacophony, this echo chamber where the voices that are the loudest tend to be the stupidest sometimes and they Or
Speaker: 1
02:05:03
the most compromised.
Speaker: 2
02:05:04
Yeah. And they and they drown out
Speaker: 3
02:05:06
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:05:06
A dissent.
Speaker: 1
02:05:07
Yes.
Speaker: 2
02:05:07
We all should be able to ask for the data and the information to make an individual decision.
Speaker: 1
02:05:13
And science shouldn’t be this ideological or ideologically captured thing.
Speaker: 2
02:05:19
That’s why I I hate the term anti vaxxers. I think it’s a pejorative term. I think it’s prejudiced. You know, what about people who just wanna have information? Oh, you’re an anti vaxxer.
Speaker: 1
02:05:29
Yeah. Well, it’s pushed just to scare people into compliance. Yeah. And that’s the whole idea. Having these pejoratives and throw them around and no one wants to be labeled that, and so you immediately get scared.
Speaker: 2
02:05:40
But enhancing innate immunity and healthy individuals to keep us healthy.
Speaker: 1
02:05:47
Yeah. How can
Speaker: 2
02:05:48
that be bad? That’s that’s better.
Speaker: 1
02:05:49
Exactly. Well, that’s the other problem that I had with the pandemic in general is that metabolic health was never discussed. It was always there there’s only one way out of this. And having conversations with people that you could see, like, visually look at them does not a metabolically healthy person.
Speaker: 1
02:06:05
And these people are telling you the only way to health is through a medicine that they are financially incentivized to push. That’s just crazy. And when those are the prominent voices that are on television and the media, and you’re getting this from politicians, and then on top of that, you’ve literally have the federal government censoring social media and not allowing people to have dissenting opinions, including people from Harvard and Ai MIT and all the people in the Great Barrington study.
Speaker: 2
02:06:31
Why don’t we have an open source
Speaker: 3
02:06:33
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:06:33
National database showing the protection of vaccines and the risk of not getting one sai individuals can make a decision? Right. Age related, all these other factors, the data is there. Not making that data available to the public increases distrust.
Speaker: 3
02:06:52
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:06:52
And so what the the medical community has unfortunately done is they’ve bred a bunch of dissenters by not giving full access to the information.
Speaker: 1
02:07:02
Well, I think that really heightened during the pandemic because I don’t think people had that much of a distrust for vaccines unless they knew someone who was vaccine injured, unless they were gaslit and be were told that their child or someone else that had gotten vaccine injured, that that was not the cause of it. And those are the people that were very skeptical, and they formed this tight community, but they were very scared to be open and public about it because they were destroyed.
Speaker: 1
02:07:25
You know, Ai famously meh Jenny McCarthy coming out and saying that she believes her child was vaccine injured. And the backlash was spectacular. Essentially destroyed her career.
Speaker: 2
02:07:36
Well, NF-one experiments are always ai, did it really happen or was it just a co occurrence of some other factor that combined with the event of the vaccination?
Speaker: 3
02:07:46
I mean,
Speaker: 2
02:07:46
this is where you need to have high population studies, but those studies are available. Why they’re cloaked in secrecy sana why are they not made available? It’s money. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:07:56
I mean, the the financial interest is astounding. The amount of money that’s involved in it and the amount of money that they spend every year. They spend $8,000,000,000. The pharmaceutical drug industry spends $8,000,000,000 just on advertising and on propaganda every year. That’s so much money. And they’re they spend so much money on television networks.
Speaker: 1
02:08:17
You know, I mean, how many times is Anderson Cooper brought to you by Pfizer? Yeah. You see these ads and that shapes the narrative, unfortunately.
Speaker: 2
02:08:24
It does. But let let me again, let’s be clear ram my point of view, vaccines have done a lot of benefit. But they’re they don’t benefit everyone all the time. Not all vaccines are the same. We have to be able to delineate a thoughtful, scientific method with disclosed information Absolutely.
Speaker: 2
02:08:47
That’s accessible to everyone sai you can make the best judgment for yourself and your family.
Speaker: 1
02:08:52
And you’ve gotta remove this financial protection that they have from liability because if they don’t have that, they’re gonna just jack up the amount that they give people Yeah. Because there’s profit in that, unfortunately. And then there are vaccines that are beneficial. Let’s find out which ones they arya.
Speaker: 1
02:09:06
Which one what what can be mitigated in terms of, like, how can you make your overall metabolic health better before you even think about any of these things? We know for a fact that during the COVID crisis in particular, the people that have the most problem with it were the people that had comorbidities, or people that were obese, people that had all sorts of issues going on because of poor diet, poor lifestyle choices, and even, you know, genetic problems.
Speaker: 2
02:09:33
Yeah. One one of the immunologists we’re working with told me something I didn’t know is that when you’re immunocompromised or immunodepressed, vaccines don’t work very well. So they be those people become reservoirs for mutation.
Speaker: 1
02:09:47
Right. Which is the argument for why you don’t give it to children when they’re babies because their immune system isn’t even functional yet.
Speaker: 2
02:09:53
Yeah. I’m I you know, I again, the the meh b one is a pretty clear example.
Speaker: 1
02:09:58
That’s a nutty one.
Speaker: 2
02:09:58
Yeah. But There’s a bunch
Speaker: 1
02:09:59
of nutty ones, but the point is the vaccine schedule. If you look at what we used to take and you look at what happened when they lost their liability during the Reagan administration, all of a sudden the schedule goes way up. Yeah. And they arya adding things like meh b. And then you ai, like, oh, it’s very profitable to do that.
Speaker: 1
02:10:16
You can imagine how much more money you make if you’re injecting everybody with a hep b vaccine if you sell hep b vaccines. Yeah. Ai Simple mathematics.
Speaker: 2
02:10:26
Yeah. Also, I’ve met people in the pharma industry who are extremely well intended. Sure. Great ai. Oh, absolutely. But they
Speaker: 1
02:10:32
scientists aren’t the issue.
Speaker: 2
02:10:33
Right? They’ve also confessed to me that they face these this humiliation, you know, of being ostracized for just asking questions. Right. Again, full disclosure, let people make up their own ai. What’s the the cost benefit ratio? Is it one out of a million, one out of 10? Well, it’s also
Speaker: 1
02:10:52
you you should have to show all the studies too. You shouldn’t just show the curated studies that you generated specifically with the specifically with a goal of making an efficacy, ai, having a result that shows that this is effective. You if you do 10 studies, you should show all 10 studies. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:11:07
Yeah. Well, actually, that’s why clinicaltrials.gov exists. Right. Is that we’re cherry picking, doing studies in Bulgaria and India and Ai. Exactly. And the pharma would choose the clinical study that supported their
Speaker: 1
02:11:19
neuron. Exactly. Exactly. And then they could use deceptive language to show the efficacy.
Speaker: 2
02:11:24
But what what I’m getting at is that we have such a reservoir of potential ways of supporting immunity in healthy individuals in nature Right. That is not pharma based. That’s based on the entourage effect. And sai when you activate the receptors in your immune system, there’s something beneficial. I believe there’s crosstalk between the receptors.
Speaker: 2
02:11:47
The receptors arya, oh, something really good is coming down the pipe, and they start, creating an entourage effect or the collaboration. More receptors are activated that have collaterally more benefits. And so that goes to the homeostasis and the uplifting of the homeostasis of the immune system that is a higher ready state, of being able to respond.
Speaker: 2
02:12:09
And then conventional medicine can work better. Ai using conventional medicine on immunocompromised individual asking their immune system to respond is an uphill battle.
Speaker: 3
02:12:18
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:12:19
Yeah. And it’s interesting too that, like, natural remedies are automatically dismissed by people that think of themselves as intelligent ai based people.
Speaker: 2
02:12:27
Well, look at artemiscin.
Speaker: 1
02:12:29
But isn’t it weird though that, like, we we dismiss it, but if you really understand the like, think about how many different pharmaceutical drugs are formulated because of discoveries of natural plants in the
Speaker: 3
02:12:42
range of
Speaker: 2
02:12:43
of them. And that And the most the most recent example is the antimalarial drug against plasmodium falciparum from an artemisia, bush, and it’s artemiscin. And it came from it came from artemisia. It’s a plant extract.
Speaker: 1
02:13:00
Ain’t that wild? And and that’s But yet, science based people will automatically dismiss what you would call a natural remedy, even though all of them, every like, nothing exists on Earth that’s not really natural.
Speaker: 2
02:13:16
It’s all Ai in agreement. From nature. I’m in agreement with you. I think that we’re just reinventing molecules that have been assembled somewhere else and meh think it’s that’s why the synthetic biologists, I’m honored to get that reward. Thank you. Ai beta conference. That’s what I think really kind of flipped them on their heads is don’t go down the rabbit hole of excluding natural products thinking you can invent a molecule that’s gonna be better.
Speaker: 3
02:13:41
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:13:41
The the in the theater of evolution, we’ve tested these natural products over tens of millions of years, literally, our primate ancestors. And so we’ve got a pretty good exponential vatsal set there to be able to see what works and what doesn’t. Many mushrooms you know, not many, but some mushrooms are poisonous, you know, and some are edible.
Speaker: 2
02:14:01
It’s a it’s a weird statistic about and, again, one to 2% fudge factor here, so please don’t attack me all over the the place. But there’s ai species of fungi. It’s about a 150,000 species of mushrooms that are estimated. So out of that 5,000,000 on the extreme, 1,500,000, less than 10%, 150,000.
Speaker: 2
02:14:25
We’ve only identified about 15,000 speak. Ai of the mushrooms that exist today. Wow. Interestingly, of of those 15,000 species, about 1% are poisonous, one or 2%, one or 2% are psychoactive, and, one to 2% are good edibles. So 97, 95, 94%, whatever the math shows, are there, but they’re not toxic. But mushrooms are molecular wizards. These are pharmaceutical factories shah are committing huge numbers.
Speaker: 2
02:14:58
And we know from their genomic analysis, 10 times more genes are activated in the mycelium of lion’s mane than in the lion’s mane mushroom itself. Why is that? Well, the mycelium has to navigate these thin threads through a hostile microbial environment defending itself until the mycelium meh becomes large enough at the end of vatsal life cycle to produce a fruit body.
Speaker: 2
02:15:19
And then lion’s mane mushrooms rot in four days. The mycelium that grew it could could exist for years. The mycelium is the immune system of the mushroom, and as a result, we have a lot more compounds being expressed. Now some people say, well, not all those compounds are necessarily beneficial. Uh-huh. Well, that’s true, but now we’ve tested them enough that we could see real world benefit.
Speaker: 2
02:15:44
Dean Ornish just published a study this past year, on Alzheimer’s using ai, adjustments, exercise, meditation, vitamins, and lion’s mane mushroom mycelium. Dramatically significant benefit in slowing down the progression of Alzheimer’s through ai, vitamins, and using lion’s mane, much of mycelium. Now which did what? Yes.
Speaker: 2
02:16:12
You can try to analyze that, but you’d have to separate every single little component to see which was the most significant. And meh, where’s the studies combining 10 vaccines or 20 vaccines in our child to see which one is actually conferring the benefit or causing, an adverse effect?
Speaker: 2
02:16:30
We have to, at some point, you know, don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. At some point, if it has a demonstrable positive effect ai we have with bees and it protects agriculture and extends the longevity of bees and it supports the endogenous immune system and healthy individuals, isn’t that good?
Speaker: 2
02:16:51
Why do we have to get lost in the details of trying to explain it? If we can’t explain it, then we won’t let it be out there for the benefit of the commons? They work cross purposes. This is where science needs to have common sense, and the government and the regulatory industry needs to have common sense.
Speaker: 2
02:17:08
And we get that by exemptions, emergency exemptions, and we should get that for emergency exemption right now. We are on a bee apocalypse. We are folks, 67% of beehives lost in Montana. What if that was a human population? Right. All hands on deck. Right. So it is.
Speaker: 2
02:17:28
And there is a transference of viruses between animal species. We’re seeing that in real time. Now the scariest thing is is when you have multiple viral infections in one person who’s immunocompromised ai you have horizontal gene transfer. This is what virologists very amongst themselves, they talk about this all the time, but but the public is not aware.
Speaker: 2
02:17:53
You could have individuals, and when you have so many dairy farm farmer workers exposed, so many people on contact, class concentrated clusters of animal animals and farms, you have so many potential patient zeros. The patient zero is a person who is the nexus for spreading a mutated form of a virus. Horizontal gene transfer is happening all the time, Ryle. Now it’s concentrated.
Speaker: 2
02:18:21
It’s accelerating. It’s sai exponential increase of risk. Bill Gates has talked about this. Many other researchers have talked about this. This is really something we should pay attention to.
Speaker: 2
02:18:33
And I think the simplest, easiest, scalable way is enhance immunity in healthy individuals. And by doing so, I think you can let your endogenous immune system work better, and I think conventional medicine will work better also in concert.
Speaker: 1
02:18:48
Well, it also speaks to the problem with industrial agriculture in general. Right? These are unnatural environments where these animals are, you know, living in their own waste on a consistent basis, which is, you know, it it it enhances the possibility of disease. And regenerative agriculture enhances the possibility of harm harm harmony amongst nature.
Speaker: 2
02:19:13
And then the counter argument is that we have better nutrition. We can feed the world sai the people are more people happier. You know, again, we’re at this we have contrast of opposites. And, I wish I had the easiest solution. I think I have the solution for bees. I think it’s scalable for protecting chickens and livestock.
Speaker: 2
02:19:32
I hope, you know and we’re now designing clinical studies on a path to ai clinical studies with bird flu using Agaracon. We don’t have the results, so I’m not making a medical claim here. But the evidence so far is so encouraging, and I’m working with top notch virologists, absolutely some of the best virologists who came to me because they saw the paper in Nature Ai Reports.
Speaker: 2
02:19:57
And Sai thought, ai fungi could help us, you know, protect ourselves from viruses. So they came through the backdoor of the scientific community, not not a Joe Rogan listener. They might be. I don’t know. Maybe they are now. But they came to these through the scientific literature saying, we should try this with people.
Speaker: 2
02:20:14
So So those are the scientists I like that are open minded enough that rather than be just sai molecular geneticist, you know, synthetic bio people, they’re actually saying, well, there’s a provable result. We don’t know why, but we should explore this because we can argue for a hundred years about ai.
Speaker: 2
02:20:33
Or we could deliver it tomorrow and have it a positive effect.
Speaker: 1
02:20:36
Yeah. Well, it makes sense. I have to ask you this question. It’s unrelated, but but I always wanted to know. Why do morel mushrooms grow around burns?
Speaker: 2
02:20:45
That is that is such a great question. And you know what? That’s the question that we’ve been asking for so long.
Speaker: 1
02:20:53
I love morel mushrooms.
Speaker: 2
02:20:54
I love morel mushrooms too. You know, they are poisonous unless you cook them. Really?
Speaker: 1
02:21:00
Yeah. Oh, boy. That’s important to know.
Speaker: 2
02:21:02
Many people have died from
Speaker: 0
02:21:03
morel mushrooms.
Speaker: 2
02:21:04
Yeah. Wow.
Speaker: 0
02:21:06
That’s crazy.
Speaker: 2
02:21:06
You don’t wanna cook morel mushrooms in a closed kitchen without ventilation. There are, volatile compounds coming out of the morels. Totally denatured in cooking. Delicious. But many, many examples of this. In Japan, I was in Japan, you know, know, fifteen years ago.
Speaker: 1
02:21:21
Have an overhead fan, don’t fry morels in your
Speaker: 3
02:21:23
kitchen.
Speaker: 2
02:21:24
Open up the window, but just don’t inhale the fumes. Wow. Wow. Many Meh would have never imagined The North American Mycological Association is the association for Canada, Mexico, and The United States, and there’s a poison control group in that, and they collect all the all the details.
Speaker: 2
02:21:40
It’s namico.org, namyc0.0rg. And they’re they’re the go to place. Ironically, because of HIPAA rules, The mycologists have been disconnected from the patients and the medical community because now there is a firewall between them. We can anonymize the case reports, but there’s a firewall of information because of HIPAA and disclosure of patient conditions that has really inhibited the flow of information.
Speaker: 2
02:22:13
Nevertheless, namco.org, North Meh Mycological Association, namy.c0.org. And my professor, doctor Michael Bug, is a giant, you know, in consulting with, for adverse effects and mushroom poisonings. So morels are delicious. But to answer your question, the the we morel ai seems to be everywhere. And then if for worse burns, and they come up. Right.
Speaker: 2
02:22:41
Where were they before? Right.
Speaker: 1
02:22:43
Well, we think Do they exist in places that don’t have burns? Yes. But rarely.
Speaker: 2
02:22:48
No. We think all the time. All the time.
Speaker: 1
02:22:50
We think the most common amongst burns.
Speaker: 2
02:22:52
They’re everywhere a force are. Right.
Speaker: 3
02:22:55
And
Speaker: 2
02:22:55
when a force burn, it knocks down all the competition. And it becomes very alkaline. Sana the absence of organic material and competitors competitor fungi, the change in the pH. And so I think we think also from the Gaian hypothesis point of view, it’s a great way of nature to rebound because they’re sinful, they attract animals, they attract insects, and birds come in, drop seeds, and then they become an oasis point for the regeneration of an ecosystem.
Speaker: 2
02:23:26
This never underestimate the intelligence of nature. The nature has figured this out. You know, nature does not exist in a vacuum. There’s always these repopulation vectors happening, and it’s collaborative. It’s not competitive. There is competition between the fungi, but when the competitors are knocked down, the minerals come come up.
Speaker: 1
02:23:43
That’s fascinating. Another fascinating thing is that the largest living organism on Earth in the Pacific Northwest
Speaker: 2
02:23:49
Yeah. Armillaria astoieti. Yeah. Some people call it Gallica two different things, but, yeah, I flew over it. It’s a 2,200 acre, you know, basically a clear cut that killed all the trees. In my book, Mycelium Running, I have the best photographs of the largest organ in the world.
Speaker: 2
02:24:05
And I hired an airplane, and first time I couldn’t see it because I was too low. Second time I had a spiral up.
Speaker: 1
02:24:10
Can you explain what it is to people?
Speaker: 2
02:24:12
It’s a honey mushroom. It’s a parasite on trees. It’s edible. The honey mushrooms on hardwoods tend to taste better, but this one is on conifers. And it’s a comes up in clusters. It forms black black rhizomorphs, black mycelium. It’s called laminated root rot. Many listeners here know what that is. It kills fruit trees.
Speaker: 2
02:24:35
But this is a marauding parasite that created a contiguous mat over 2,200 acres. And, in this case, it killed all the trees sai they went ashen gray in tyler, and they dried out and they’re dead. Because of fire hazard from lightning strikes, the forest service came in and they cut all the dead trees.
Speaker: 2
02:24:57
And they created this beautiful outline of the largest mycelial meh in the world because you could see where the dead trees were.
Speaker: 1
02:25:03
Can we see what that looks ai? An image?
Speaker: 0
02:25:05
I’m trying
Speaker: 2
02:25:06
to find a good picture. It’s also in mycelium running. Sai, but, anyhow, that’s an example. Now, oh, kill the trees. That’s terrible. But it created, grasslands for ungulates. Right. You know, so deer and moose, elk can come in. So it’s way of I think it’s a way of this rebalancing of nature. Right.
Speaker: 2
02:25:27
Where You’re
Speaker: 1
02:25:28
dealing with millions and millions of acres.
Speaker: 2
02:25:30
Millions and millions of acres. There is a real big problem with, the bark beetle right now. You know, that’s a problem. It’s it’s the ecosystems are shifting in response to stress. And, you know, we live with our ai view of only one lifetime. We’re very myopic. I think we need to look out of the thousand year I mean, what is the lens of time that we actually look at ecosystems?
Speaker: 2
02:25:57
What’s the right lens to use? Depends upon your vested interests, you know, as a human, as a deer, as an ecosystem. They could be very different. Right.
Speaker: 1
02:26:10
It’s just such a fascinating thing that the largest known organism on Earth exists in the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker: 2
02:26:16
And it’s one cell wall thick.
Speaker: 1
02:26:18
That’s so nuts.
Speaker: 2
02:26:19
Think Think about its immune system.
Speaker: 3
02:26:20
You know
Speaker: 1
02:26:21
what I found out recently that I had no idea? Aspen trees. When you see aspen trees, it’s one plant.
Speaker: 2
02:26:26
Yeah. It’s one contiguous thing. They’re the two competitors for that title, by the way.
Speaker: 1
02:26:30
Isn’t that nuts? Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:26:31
They’re the two competitors.
Speaker: 1
02:26:32
When ai sai these I I always thought when you see aspen forests that it’s sai whole bunch of different individual aspen trees.
Speaker: 3
02:26:39
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:26:40
Nope. No. You know, there’s all sorts of amazing discoveries. Here’s one that blows my mind. And, I had to write it down because it’s a new species. There is a fungus that’s related to ergot. It’s in the, clavicipithecae, and it was found by a student at Western, Virginia University. It is in morning glory seeds.
Speaker: 2
02:27:07
It produces LSD.
Speaker: 1
02:27:09
Well, Terrence talked about that.
Speaker: 2
02:27:11
No. This is before Terrence. No.
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02:27:12
No. No.
Speaker: 1
02:27:12
No. No. No. No. No. About morning
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02:27:15
ai fungus that’s growing in there. And it’s called it’s called Paraglandula clandestina.
Speaker: 1
02:27:23
And don’t they What a
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02:27:24
great name. Clandestina, the clandestine.
Speaker: 1
02:27:26
Don’t they do something to commercial morning glory seeds to make sure that people don’t trip on them?
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02:27:31
I don’t know.
Speaker: 1
02:27:32
I think they do. I think that’s another thing that Terrence is talking about, how gross it was, that they they alter morning glory seeds because they knew that people were using them for psychedelics.
Speaker: 2
02:27:41
Well, if they sterilized them and used the fungicide, that would make sense. Yeah. But a graduate student need to give her credit as a Western, Virginia University, Corinne Hazel. There it is. Danielle. Yes.
Speaker: 1
02:27:53
There it is.
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02:27:54
Look how young she is.
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02:27:55
Very young.
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02:27:56
She made a discovery heretofore unknown to science and not only to produce these LSD compounds, it is a symbiotic fungus helping the morning glory survive.
Speaker: 1
02:28:09
Amazing.
Speaker: 2
02:28:10
Think about every young person out there, the field of mycology is underfunded, understudied, under reported under under reported, under utilized. This is a fantastic treasure trove of new potential discoveries. I have long stated, I think, the field of mycology should be funded as well as the computer industry because it’s so fundamental to the survival of our species.
Speaker: 2
02:28:34
It’s that big.
Speaker: 1
02:28:35
No. I I couldn’t agree with you more. Did you you’re you’re aware of Ai Murarescu. Right? Mhmm. Yep. That was one of the more fascinating things they found in those when they studied those vases Mhmm. That they found Urgot in them Meh. From, the Eleusinian Mysteries.
Speaker: 2
02:28:50
Has Brian tripped yet?
Speaker: 1
02:28:51
I don’t know. You have to ask him.
Speaker: 2
02:28:54
I love it when scientists and researchers don’t admit that they tripped. But I can
Speaker: 1
02:29:01
I don’t know if it’s a non admission? I think in his case, he wanted to be objective. So he wanted to study these things without, being
Speaker: 2
02:29:09
Is that error?
Speaker: 1
02:29:09
He’s worried about being labeled as someone who’s promoting them because they like it.
Speaker: 2
02:29:15
Well, an extreme example, but Ai has some merit. I mean, would you rather be taught by an airline pilot who has experience or someone who just ai a book? Yeah. Sai the late, Roland Griffiths is a dear friend, Johns Hopkins. He is credited as being the big pioneer for psilocybin in medical research.
Speaker: 2
02:29:35
And when I asked him, have you tripped on psilocybin? That is when I was out in his house in the backyard, he said he just ai. He said, I’m not gonna answer that question. Well, then after he died, I met some of his friends. And he goes, oh, yeah. Roland Roland tripped.
Speaker: 2
02:29:53
But he didn’t wanna tell anyone because it for the fear that he could lose his objectivity or be criticized.
Speaker: 1
02:30:00
Yeah. He was Strasman had a an interesting perspective on that too. When I first met him, he was very reluctant to talk about DMT experiences that he had personally because he had run those FDA studies that were documented in DMT, the spirit molecule, the book.
Speaker: 2
02:30:15
He was very reticent to talk about it. And then
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02:30:17
he sort
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02:30:17
of came out of the closet on that. Fully. And then when I asked Rowan’s friends, well, where did he like to trip trip? Because you’re in a hospital environment with all these doctors and, you know, your stress levels go up just being in a hospital environment. And he said, well, Roland’s favorite place to trip was on a mountain top with three friends with a beautiful view and a fire.
Speaker: 1
02:30:40
Perfect. Perfect.
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02:30:42
Perfect. What’s the quality of experience? Now, again, this is for healthy normals.
Speaker: 1
02:30:46
Mhmm.
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02:30:47
Not people who need to have medical assistance, but there are some very good psychotherapists out there and psychonauts in the in the ai assisted therapy movement. The center the California Institute for Integrative Studies, ciis, Ai think, .org or .eu, has a program training psychedelic therapists.
Speaker: 2
02:31:11
You don’t have to be a medical a physician to be a be able to hold someone hand to have a guided experience. Now there’s a lot of charlatans out there. If That’s a problem. Right? Be warned, folks. There’s a lot of problems.
Speaker: 1
02:31:25
That’s a lot of that is a problem.
Speaker: 2
02:31:26
But there are some excellent therapists out there. And for many people who can’t get into a clinical study, be careful, consult a qualified medical practitioner
Speaker: 3
02:31:38
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:31:38
Put that on the record, but a lot of people have benefited without having to go through a traditional medical, you know you know, constructs of a hospital
Speaker: 3
02:31:49
Right.
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02:31:49
To have benefit.
Speaker: 1
02:31:50
And then they’re reluctant to talk about it because the illegality of it, unfortunately. And, you know, if you have a job that is, you know, where you have to be taken seriously.
Speaker: 2
02:31:59
That was you could be lose your medical license. But the University of Washington, Tony Back, Anthony Back, published a clinical study on using psilocybin for physicians and nurses who were emotionally harmed and distressed by people angry at them because of COVID in the hospital.
Speaker: 2
02:32:21
And they were spit upon, and they were attacked viciously, physically ai in the hospital. They had PTSD but just trying to provide good medical support. So he did a clinical study that was published just last year showing the benefits because the nurses and physicians, when they meh out of the system, they can’t provide medical care ai loses.
Speaker: 2
02:32:42
So they were able to reconcile the emotional harm that they experienced from angry patients, and being assaulted, and they were able to then return meh of them back into the medical profession, you know, with a, you know, healing from that. So ai aggression and anger affects everyone around you. Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
02:33:03
The advantage of psilocybin, I think, just like a pebble in the pawn of a tragedy creates ripples of distress throughout society. When someone who is highly adversely affected, angry and, you know, violent and all these antisocial behaviors, when they suddenly switch just like that, it’s a pebble in the pawn of positivity.
Speaker: 2
02:33:31
A great example, a law enforcement officer by the name of Sarco from Boston just received his religious exemption for using psychedelics. So he is a police officer, and his chief of police is now retired. He has been an advocate because he saw Sarco, who experienced all these negative he’s love to have him on the show sometime.
Speaker: 2
02:33:59
He can really speak authoritatively to other law enforcement officers saying this has helped me. Sai I have a law enforcement officer
Speaker: 1
02:34:07
I’d love to talk to him.
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02:34:08
Ai I’ve I’d love to for you he’s the real deal. I I have a RCMP off officer friend in Vancouver who took me to his favorite psilocybin mushroom shop in Vancouver. I couldn’t believe it. We walked in the psilocybin mushroom shop. They didn’t know who I was, thankfully, and they were selling the stem of stock, which is ai weird because I have my name on it.
Speaker: 2
02:34:29
And we walk in there and sai, this is this is where I tell all my law enforcement officers to come to take to get their psilocybin. I said, I’m so I’m sorry. But Ai I’m trying to juxtaposition this, you know. How does this work? And he goes, well, you know, this is good perhaps for ICE also.
Speaker: 2
02:34:45
I said, do you know how, you know, in in Ai States, law enforcement officers are aggressive and meh. They tend to intimidate you and, you know, subjugate you. I said, we found a better way up here. It’s through psilocybin. I said, what what would you do? I sai, well, we have learned the following.
Speaker: 2
02:35:03
Now when I have to rush somebody, I know they have a warrant out for them. I walk up to them, and I say and I I always walk up with a smile on my face. Never a harsh look. Only a smile on my face. And I said, I have good news and I have bad news. What do you wanna hear first? He sai, invariably, everybody wants to say, tell me the good news.
Speaker: 2
02:35:24
And he goes, the good news is you can finish your cup of coffee. And I go, okay. What’s the bad news? Dude, I gotta arrest you. And he goes, the amount of cooperation and the reduction of the threat level for the safety of the law enforcement and the cooperation that they get in the Shah car when these people that are just shooting this shit with law enforcement officer.
Speaker: 2
02:35:47
I know you’re doing your job, but, wow, thank you for being so ai, arresting me. You know? He sai, it’s a game changer. It’s reduced the threat to us physically of making arrests. It makes sense.
Speaker: 1
02:35:57
It doesn’t escalate. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:35:59
Doesn’t escalate. They deescalate it. Yeah. And he goes, you won’t believe the things I learned, you know, from these people you’re arresting now, you know, who tyler me things they would never have gotten out of interrogation, but they were so respected. And the fact that they had to do their job without becoming adversarial.
Speaker: 1
02:36:17
Yeah.
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02:36:18
Note to self. Right? Note to everyone. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:36:21
Note to everyone. And, meh, all conflicts involve two or more people. It doesn’t they’re not it’s not just this is the only way to react to something. Yeah. It’s how you react, how they react to your reaction. There’s a cascading effect.
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02:36:38
Well, I have great faith in humanity. I’ve seen that I
Speaker: 1
02:36:42
do too.
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02:36:42
I have the seen the best I mean, I’ve seen people
Speaker: 1
02:36:45
Most people are great.
Speaker: 2
02:36:47
Most people are great, and they’re better when they go through a ai experience Yeah. That amplifies the best of people. And it also helps them resolve the a lot of the baggage. You can think of the inflammatory actions of the anger, and you did something and you don’t want to tell anybody, but you’re haunted by that. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:37:06
You inadvertently harm somebody, and you went off the deep end, you harm somebody else. It’s a cascading event of harm. Yeah. And then when you these people are resolved ai, that was a bad chapter in my life. I had one really bad day or maybe a series of them, but that does not define me who I am as a person.
Speaker: 2
02:37:25
I have a better self, and it’s now and in the future. Right. It’s not in the past.
Speaker: 1
02:37:30
Yeah. That’s the perspective we should all have, and that’s the thing that we should all strive for. Be the best version of you that you can be. Yep. And you we’ve all made terrible mistakes in the past, but the the idea is to have learned from them and to be a better person because of that.
Speaker: 2
02:37:46
Well, the medical community has come together on this, on psychedelics. The law enforcement community has come together. You know, I It’s positive. It’s positive.
Speaker: 1
02:37:56
We’re in a positive direction.
Speaker: 2
02:37:57
I had a my interview by the DEA and it was they were I had I thought they were the boogeyman in seventies for good reason, by the way. But, I shouldn’t say that. But but I went through my background check and, and the the DEA has such a sense of humor. I said, okay, Paul. You know, you come out clean. You have a don’t have a record.
Speaker: 2
02:38:18
Everything is ai, you know, but we have to talk to you about something that happened in 1994 in Des Moines, Washington. Really? Yeah. I’m like, what happened in 1994 in Des Moines, Washington? He says, are you sure you don’t remember? And they’re they’re role playing here.
Speaker: 2
02:38:36
Ai didn’t know it at the time. No. I don’t remember. I wonder if sometimes people just confess to something that because they’re fishing. I don’t I don’t I said, I have no clue. No clue. He goes, are you sure? I’m in this is your official response. You don’t meh. I said, no.
Speaker: 2
02:38:52
I don’t remember. He says, didn’t you get a speeding ticket? And I said, I paid that. It was for those machines. It was for my camera.
Speaker: 2
02:39:01
I know I paid it. I ai dig up the receipt. It was, like, $35 and, you know, and they just roared with laughter.
Speaker: 1
02:39:07
They’re just fucking with you?
Speaker: 2
02:39:08
They’re fucking with me. What they told me is that we don’t know shit about mushrooms or psilocybin. We’re an enforcement agency. Many of us don’t agree with us. Change the law. We wanna go after syndicates. We wanna go after fentanyl.
Speaker: 3
02:39:23
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:39:23
We wanna go after these, you know, these these these Things
Speaker: 1
02:39:26
that are not beneficial in any way,
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02:39:27
shape, or form. Sai we don’t want to hurt the source that is healing us. Right. But they won’t fuck around when it comes to money transactions.
Speaker: 3
02:39:36
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:39:37
Once you involve money Mhmm. Then the DEA is gonna be involved. Right. Right. But you’re involved in research, and we we have strict guidelines. Sai had a DEA license in, you know, 1975, 1976, ’77, and ’78, through doctor Michael Buick at the Evergreen State College, and they were much more liberal.
Speaker: 2
02:39:54
I could grow tons of soul side mushrooms and collect them in. That’s why we did a series of conferences. I was the only one that had a DEA ai. So we did these conferences collecting all these experts together with Albert Hofmann there or Gordon Wasson, Richard Evan Schultes, you know, Jonathan Ott, Terrence McKenna.
Speaker: 2
02:40:13
But I had the license to be able to possess psilocybin with my professor, and so we would have all the psilocybin. So we did these educational events, you know, academic, with citizen scientists and psychonauts coming together. What’s really different is we just had a for the Ai Science MAPS conference in Denver, 8,500 people.
Speaker: 2
02:40:38
Back in the nineteen seventies, at any moment, we were afraid that a SWAT team would break down the doors and arrest everybody. We existed in a high state of paranoia because that was a war on drugs with Richard Nixon. And now it’s totally different. Now you have law enforcement officers.
Speaker: 2
02:40:56
You have Rick Perry. You have all these in New Mexico. They ai the prescription of psilocybin.
Speaker: 1
02:41:03
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
02:41:03
This is a citizen’s move movement. It’s a democratic movement for the freedom of consciousness, and you everyone should have a right to, to be able to practice. And where do you draw individual, use from religious use? Psilocybin mushrooms are very important for my own personal religion. I feel that this is central to my religious belief.
Speaker: 2
02:41:28
So I think this is where the government needs to back off. If you’re using it for your spiritual development, whether you’re Buddhist or Christian or Islamic, you know, or Judaic, you know, this informs your spirituality, reduces crime, it reduces harm, reduces, you know, potential for violence.
Speaker: 2
02:41:50
This is a game changer. I think we’re in the psilocybin revolution, and psilocybin mushrooms are fundamentally different than MDMA. And and Ai, just because Abigail’s so long and has heart issues. I just think this is a medicine for our times that can make a paradigm shift for a better society.
Speaker: 1
02:42:11
I couldn’t agree more. That’s a good way to end this. Thank you, Paul. Show show hold your book up there because this is the the latest of eight books that you’ve written. Yeah. Psilocybin mushrooms in their natural habitats. Paul, you’re a gem. You really are. You’re you’re such an important person.
Speaker: 1
02:42:27
And I think, through the conversations that you and I have had and then you’ve had on many other podcasts as well, millions and millions of people have gotten to understand what this is really all about. And I think your role in educating people is is enormous.
Speaker: 2
02:42:42
It’s but let’s be very careful with that. I’m a one knowledge keeper, literally in a string of knowledge keepers.
Speaker: 1
02:42:47
Yes.
Speaker: 2
02:42:48
Sai many people have died, been harmed, indigenous people. I am carrying the torch, and I wanna pass this torch with pride, with dignity, with respect, with kindness, with positivity to the next generation. The next generation needs to be empowered with us, and they can do an excellent job knowing what’s happened in the past and foretelling what we could be in the future, the best of the best.
Speaker: 1
02:43:11
I think you’re doing just that. So thank you. I appreciate it very much, Larry. Thank you. Thank you. Alright. Bye, everybody ai.