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#2318 – Harold “Sonny” White Podcast Episode Description
Dr. Harold “Sonny” White is a physicist and aerospace engineer specializing in advanced propulsion, particularly warp drive physics. Formerly leading NASA’s Advanced Propulsion Team at Johnson Space Center, he now directs the Limitless Space Institute, dedicated to interstellar exploration.www.limitlessspace.org
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#2318 – Harold “Sonny” White Podcast Episode Top Keywords
#2318 – Harold “Sonny” White Podcast Episode Summary
In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience, the discussion centers around advanced space exploration, propulsion technologies, and the future of space travel. The guest, who has a background in NASA and is involved with the Limitless Space Institute, shares insights into the challenges and opportunities in space exploration. A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the difference between getting to space and moving through space, emphasizing the need for innovative propulsion technologies beyond traditional rockets.
The guest highlights the potential of nuclear electric propulsion to unlock the solar system for human exploration and discusses the concept of a space warp, which could revolutionize space travel. The conversation also touches on the development of power-generating nanotechnology, which emerged from research into quantum fields and could have immediate practical applications.
Elon Musk and SpaceX are mentioned as examples of mastering the art of reaching space, with the guest noting the importance of translating innovative ideas into actionable steps. The episode also explores the role of education and training in preparing future generations to tackle complex scientific challenges, emphasizing the importance of discernment in navigating the vast amount of information available today.
Recurring themes include the intersection of art and science, the importance of long-term vision in technological development, and the excitement of pushing the boundaries of what is possible in space exploration. The overall message is one of optimism and curiosity, encouraging listeners to engage with the unknown and contribute to the advancement of human knowledge and capability in space.
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#2318 – Harold “Sonny” White Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
Speaker: 0
00:01
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
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00:03
The Joe Rogan experience.
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00:06
Showing my day. Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
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00:12
What’s happening? Hey. How are you, sir? How’s it
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going, Joe? Good to meet you.
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Yeah. Thank you for having me here today. I appreciate it.
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My pleasure. Well, as soon as I saw the subject, I was like, oh, yeah. Like, what are you doing?
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00:22
Right. Right. Right. Advanced power and propulsion. Kinda been a passion of mine for the last twenty some odd years. I suppose if I kinda look back through, the annals of my life, right, I’ve been thinking about advanced power and propulsion ever since I was a teenager.
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00:38
What do you think inspired that? Was it speak missions? Was it did you look at it and go, I think we can do better? Like, what was it?
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00:46
Well, you know, I I grew up in Washington, DC, and so I got a chance to spend a lot of time in the Air and Space Smithsonian. I don’t know if you’ve ever had a chance No. I haven’t. To go to that. But growing up in DC, getting a chance to go to the Air and Space Smithsonian, I got to see all these awesome examples of people working together to try and accomplish amazing things.
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01:12
Right? And it and it you know, you might walk into the Air and Space Smithsonian, you just think about, wow, this is full of a bunch of stuff, but it’s not just about the stuff. Right? It’s about the people that worked together to do all these amazing things. Right? Like, the Bell x one rocket.
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01:27
I mean, if you really wanna go back, the Ai Flyer. Right? That’s that’s something where two guys work together that made bicycles for a living that decided to go create something that flew. And then in less than fifty, you know, fifty, sixty years from when they flew that, ai fire, right, we’re putting human beings on the the surface of the moon.
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01:48
And so all that really resonated with me as a kid, and I think tended to make me gravitate towards a technical field, although it wasn’t a straight line. Right? I I’d Right. I’d like to say, you know, I knew vatsal early age what my calling was and what I was gonna do, but it I bounced around for a little bit until I finally got, on a path that, you know, I really connected with.
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02:12
And so I think I knew, very early on in my journey in university, right, when I was going to get my degree, that I wanted to work in advanced power and propulsion. And so at that point, everything I did kinda worked towards how do I get the skills, how do I get the the math and physics training that helps me kinda work in this domain?
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02:32
Because I was thinking about the idea of space warps very early on.
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02:35
Right? That it’s amazing that you were so focused so early. What a great head start. You know? It’s a huge advantage to know Yeah. What you’re really interested in at such an early age.
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02:44
There there well, there were a few speed bumps along the way. We we we took a few detours ai like any like any human. Right? You’re like, Sai don’t know if I wanna do
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02:52
this yet. Right? So Well, it is pretty extraordinary if you look at that number that you said, like, from Orville Wright and Wilbur Wright to space ai, like, how quick that
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03:00
is.
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03:00
Yeah. Ai meh and we think about in terms of ancient history, how long it took us to get to this point and that kind of acceleration so rapidly inside of a lifetime to see just world changing events and the Internet all happening simultaneously. Right?
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03:14
Absolute absolutely. You know, there’s there’s a there’s another interesting story. Right? So my background is I’ve got a a PhD in physics, and a a a master’s in mechanical engineering. So I’m both sai scientist and an and an engineer. So I I have, you know, deep appreciation for both disciplines, but within the discipline of science. Right?
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03:34
You know, we just talked about the ai flyer and then going to the surface of the moon, and that’s more of a ai of an engineering story. On the on the topic of science, you know, think about e equals meh squared. You probably heard that or saw it on a coffee cup. I think I
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03:49
don’t really honestly know what it means.
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03:51
It’s a theory of relativity. It’s theory of relativity.
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03:53
I I could say it to people, like, come on, man. Right. E equals mc squared. The axis. Explain it. Right? What is the theory of relativity?
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04:00
So e equals mc squared, right, is a an equation that relates, energy to mass. If you were to take some, modest piece of mass, say you’ve got some tidbits here, the the mass that’s in this pen right here. If you take the mass that’s in this pen and you convert it to energy, that equation helps you understand exactly how much energy you can potentially release.
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04:22
And so that equation, ai it might sound very humble. Right? Oh, e equals meh c squared. That’s cool. But it had super big implications, and and you just talked about how quickly things move. So let let’s talk about that for just a second.
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04:35
E equals m c squared. Einstein comes up with this equation, 1911. Somebody will look it up on the Internet and correct me if I’m wrong. Comes up with the equation in 1911. They split the first atom in 1928, ’19 ’30 ‘2 time frame. I can’t remember the exact time frame.
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04:50
1942, we have the first nuclear reactor underneath the squash court at University of Chicago. They they did things very differently in the nineteen forties, Joe. Under a squash court?
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05:04
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
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05:05
Did they let the people play in squash? No?
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05:07
Who knows. Right?
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05:08
What happened to them? Are they X Meh now?
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05:10
Right. Exactly. That’s sai that’s a origin story. That’s a Spider Man origin story. Right? So Yeah.
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05:15
That’s where Phoenix came
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05:16
from. Yeah. Shah. Your friends tell you, I can I can, I think I can hear the color blue now? Right? So Mhmm. Yeah. Sai, anyway, the the, I had the first nuclear reactor underneath the Squash Court in 1942 and then the Trinity test, That’s the atomic bomb test in 1945. And so in the span of just a few decades, we go from acute coffee cup worthy equation to a paradigm shift in human existence. Right?
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05:44
And that’s without computers in the way we think of it. That’s without machine learning and with without AI. And so as we continue to move forward, right, we’ve got, you know if if you think about everything we know in physics today, general relativity and quantum mechanics are kind of the the two bookends of everything that we know.
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06:01
We’re gonna continue to expand our knowledge, and we will come up with new e equals Meh squared kind of equations. But now we’re equipped with computers. We’re equipped with machine learning Ai. And so it’s gonna be exponential growth. Right? So it’ll be interesting to see to see how quickly we go from, hey.
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06:23
I have this new sai. Found this funny thing in a lab to, wow. It changes everything, how we do everything, as a as a culture and community. Right? So
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06:34
So there’s several problems with the current propulsion systems. Right? And the big one is, like, biological entities being able to absorb g force. Right? No matter if you super hyper engineer something and have it really crazy, but the things that we’re seeing in the sky, the things that people ai, like commander David Fravor, when he described that Tic Tac
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06:55
Mhmm.
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06:56
That vehicle, that thing, whatever it was, that went from above 50,000 feet to sea level in a second Mhmm. And shot off at insane rate speeds. Biological entities can’t survive that kind of g force, we think.
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07:12
Yeah. So I I think in terms of, a human ability to take g’s Yeah.
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07:17
I should say human, not like tardigrades could
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07:20
Ai.
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07:20
Right. Right. Right.
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07:21
Yeah. So a human being can well, trained, human beings can take potentially up to to nine g’s.
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07:29
Have you ever done that before?
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07:30
Have you ever I have not. Right? I did
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07:32
it once with the Blue Angels. Yeah. I got to seven and a half g’s. It was bananas.
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07:36
That’s awesome. You have ai sports. Was an experience.
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07:39
Oh, it was
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07:40
Oh, my I am so jealous.
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07:41
Mad respect for those guys. Mad respect for those guys. Yeah. First of all, the biggest thing when you go to that area, like, these guys are jacked. They’re in, like, insane shape because you’re literally forcing blood into your brain to tolerate the g force.
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07:54
Yeah. Yeah.
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07:55
So they have to hold on to their speak, their, you know, their joystick, and they’re going whoop whoop whoop. They’re ai they’re flying, going, you know, through the canyons, it’s bananas. Yeah. Like, extraordinary. Yeah. So imagine, a person being able to tolerate that on a regular basis and perform fine motor skill functions, like, you know, pointing and aiming and shooting and all the crazy stuff that those guys are capable of doing.
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08:19
Being able to think. And in some cases, if they’re in combat, being able to make critical decisions. You know, in in some ways, what you’re talking about, when you look at, NASA’s astronaut corps, right, as part of their regimen, they have to go up in t 30 eights on a regular basis, to try and help, help train with the whole how do you make decisions, right, when your life is on the line and the time is finite.
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08:43
Right? So there’s a whole aspect of this that’s kinda geared towards keeping those portions of the brain, trained and sharp. Right?
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08:50
Right. Which is the best argument for AI taking over. So when, you hear about stories, about these fighter pilots finding these objects in the sky that exhibit extraordinary capabilities and don’t have all the signatures of traditional propulsion systems. What is your thoughts?
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09:15
Generally, I tend to be agnostic to the topic. I have a lot of friends that are extremely interested in a lot of things that are out and about, in the in the media and in the literature. But, generally, I tend to be, agnostic, and here’s why. In in everything that, that’s that’s currently out, that people talk about and highlight, it’s difficult for me to take, to take the data and the evidence and then pull that into the work that we do in the lab with some of the the the different test devices we work with as we kind of explore the frontiers of where physics and propulsion might intersect.
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09:56
It’s hard to take that and turn that into some kind of action plan, if you will. Sai I I’m certainly aware, like, David Fravor, the experience that he had with, I think he calls them Tic Tacs. Mhmm. Right? An amazing account, and there’s multiple people that saw it, multiple platforms that saw it.
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10:19
And so to to to start with, right, I I thought maybe there was a small chance that was, just like we have stealth technology, right, where if you wanna hide a plane, what if we had the ability to project something, right, through some mechanism, where we could make people go where we wanted them to go.
Speaker: 2
10:38
Right? Because I know there is, there’s a technology that uses, like, two different lasers that triangulate a certain point in open air, and they put enough energy into a particular location that they ionize the air. And so it creates, like, a a bright pixel. And so they use that to create three-dimensional displays that kinda look like they’re just floating out in air.
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10:58
Now they’re not quite as big as what we saw, described with the the the Nimitz encounter on the West Coast. So I thought for a little while, maybe that might be something that we’re seeing.
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11:09
They can project plasma as well. Right? Is that is that the same thing?
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11:12
It’s it’s the same thing. Ai? So the the two lasers intersect. They ionize the air, which creates a plasma.
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11:17
And they can do this over long distances as well. Right?
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11:20
The I I don’t know about long distances. I know they can do it over short distances. Okay. And so that to for a while there, I wondered if that might be something that that could explain some some of what That makes sense. What David Fravor and the and the group saw.
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11:33
The only problem would be the radar because I don’t know you wouldn’t pick up that on radar, would you? Because it’s not a mass. Right?
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11:41
So the well, the the plasma would certainly, absorb a radar signal. Right? Because it’s gonna it’s gonna polarize any electromagnetic wave that tries to go through. So it would show up? It might. It might. It might.
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11:52
Would it be possible to make something that big that’s 20 feet long out of that?
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11:58
It’s hard for me to imagine that. Right. But it so in Ai think there’s one piece of data that just came out in the last few weeks. I think, David Fravor’s wingman, Alex I think her name is Alex Dietrich. I can’t remember the name. I
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12:14
think you’re right.
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12:15
Something. Sai shah came out. And so in in in all the things associated with that particular encounter, right, one of the things I’ve been trying to figure out is what how do they describe the specular surface of the Tic Tac? Right. Right? Because if it’s the these plasma pixels that I’m talking about that kinda creates a volumetric display, I would speculate it might be kind of a a glowy looking thing.
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12:40
But I think Alex, in her, account, described as kind of a flat type of Like
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12:47
matte. Yeah.
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12:48
Yeah. So that kinda that kinda torpedoed my my, my working theory. So, but Ai I again, while it’s amazing and incredible and it’s something that people wanna go think about and go try and collect more data, it doesn’t help me ai what I’m doing in the lab. And so Ai think I kinda keep, you know, my my eyes dart every once in a while over to that particular topic. Oh, what’s that about? That’s interesting.
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13:12
Yeah. I mean, I’m honestly agnostic as well. I bounce back and forth from being really excited about it to feel like I’m being duped all the time. Jamie and I talk about it all the time. I’m back in. Jamie’s back in and Jamie will find something. He’s like, I think I’m back in.
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13:26
I’m looking right now.
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13:27
I’m looking through the article about the the navy laser that can do this and ai to figure out how big the objects are that they can make move. But they’re definitely they’re designed to to trick heat seeking missiles. So they gotta make a mess to that. So they wanna Okay.
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13:40
So they make a heat signature. So they trick the heat sig which makes sense. Right? Because they’re plasma.
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13:44
Yeah. It ram from tens to hundreds of
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13:46
meters away. How where are you at
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13:49
right now with UFOs? You in
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13:50
or you’re out? There’s I’m still in on something, but I don’t know what the object is or what is But we’ve
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13:58
both been in and out.
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13:59
Consciousness, ai, I’m I’m on that this week or month.
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14:04
Oh, the one where they think they can call them in?
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14:05
Not just that you need consciousness to to use it or talk
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14:08
to it
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14:08
or see
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14:09
it or Maybe. I have no idea. Maybe. There was some talk of gravity propulsion systems in, the nineteen fifties, I believe. There was some work that was being done, and there was some discussion about whether or not it’d be possible to use nuclear energy to create some sort of a gravity drive.
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14:26
Mhmm. What is your thoughts on that stuff?
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14:29
Well, I think in in order to do so I’m gonna I’m gonna use a different parlance. Right? Instead of like Obviously, I don’t know what I’m talking about. That’s okay. That’s okay. Right. So in in in terms of some of the the language literature when we talk about something that would, I think, trace to what you mean when you say a gravity drive.
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14:45
Okay. Right? We might use the parlance space drive. Right? And so, conceptually, it would be a a form of propulsion that instead of using some form of onboard propellant in a tank, right, it’s found some way to couple to some external field, whatever it may might be, and can generate some kind of a a propulsive force.
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15:05
And so in my mind, in order for us to, ever be able to go down a path where we’re trying to create, something like that that might look like that or smell like that or what have you, we need to have a deeper understanding of gravity. Right? And so, you know, we, you know, we just talked about, equals meh c squared and ai it back up just a minute.
Speaker: 2
15:28
If you think about everything we know today as of in physics as a Venn diagram, there are two circles on this Venn diagram, and they they touch at a little tangent point. One of those circles is quantum mechanics that helps us understand how atoms behave, how light moves. And in the other circle, we have the words, general relativity.
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15:51
And so that helps us understand how the cosmos evolves, how stars move and and galaxies move. And so those two circles touch at a sai single tangent point. They don’t overlap. So what that says is gravity we don’t know how to connect gravity to quantum mechanics. We don’t understand that.
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16:10
But in terms of all of our daily life, just just that level of physics helps us every single day. Right? This cell phone is only possible because of quantum mechanics, and GPS is only as accurate as it is because we use, general relativity to correct the atomic clocks on the the the GPS, satellites.
Speaker: 2
16:29
But until we develop a better understanding of how gravity might connect to quantum mechanics or alternately how quantum mechanics might connect to, gravity, Ai don’t I don’t know that we’ll be able to make meaningful progress. Right? And so we need more circles on the Venn diagram. Just those two aren’t enough.
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16:52
There are a number of people that would speculate that, you know, quantum mechanics is incomplete, general relativity is incomplete, perhaps it’s even emergent. I think you had Hal Putoff on here Yes. A few days ago. Right? And he talked about a physicist by the name of Sakharov who talked about the fact I think he was one of the guys that first pioneered the thought process.
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17:14
Maybe maybe gravity is simply an emergent phenomena, and we’ll develop a better understanding as we as we add more circles in and around the the quantum mechanics circle, if you will. And so I think in order for us to be able to, you know, come up with a widget. Right? You know, some widget that generates a force in in the form of a a space drive, we’re gonna have to have more physics than what we currently have.
Speaker: 1
17:38
So we’ll have to have more of an understanding of what gravity actually is Yes. And what generates gravity.
Speaker: 2
17:42
Yeah. What meh. And it’s and it’s not just the gravity thing. It’s it’s quantum mechanics. So quantum mechanics ai its quantum mechanics is completely incompatible with with general relativity. Right? And so this is this is a big issue. Right? This is there are tons of people that spend their entire life trying to figure out how to, how to unravel this mystery. It’s a it’s a big conundrum.
Speaker: 1
18:02
Well, it’s so fascinating to me because if you were a scientist in the fourteen hundreds and you were having this discussion with those people, they would think you’re a wizard.
Speaker: 2
18:09
Absolutely. Especially if you held up something like ai.
Speaker: 1
18:11
Yeah. You know
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18:12
the grief. Ai I’d I meh burned at a stage.
Speaker: 1
18:14
Imagine they show the screen. Right. You know? And I said Jamie pull something up. Yeah.
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18:18
Pull something up.
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18:18
What is it doing? What is happening?
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18:20
What is it that you showeth upon thy thy wall?
Speaker: 1
18:23
Ai. So So imagine, you know, extrapolate ai going in the future and seeing what this all this stuff is gonna look ai. Once we gain more and more understanding, which more than more scientists, more researchers piling on their discoveries, and then ultimately one day Mhmm. We’ll be looking back on 2025 going look at those barbarians.
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18:42
Ai, oh
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18:43
meh gosh. Did you
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18:43
see that show
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18:44
with with Sonny and Joe where they were talking about what a bunch of ai. They didn’t even
Speaker: 1
18:47
know what gravity was. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. It’d be like bloodletting.
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18:51
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
18:52
Ai kind of interesting because I bet every current civilization thinks it’s at the pinnacle and that, you know, we’ve this is, you know, everybody else is a moron and this is we are a seriously advanced society.
Speaker: 3
19:05
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Speaker: 1
19:07
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Speaker: 2
20:26
It’s interesting. You know, I I I I get a chance to go do a bunch of discussions with, students all over the globe, right, and talking about speak exploration, specifically, you know, advanced power and propulsion. Right? I really kinda get into this whole difference between, to space and and through space.
Speaker: 2
20:44
And so as part of that narrative, right, I always spend a little bit of time telling them. Right? We we live in a society where everybody likes to pretend like we got all this stuff figured out. Right? There’s there’s nothing left to figure out. Right?
Speaker: 2
20:58
You know, we got cell phones and Internet and airplanes and Right. All different kinds of stuff. There’s there’s really nothing left. And so
Speaker: 1
21:04
Just maintain what we have.
Speaker: 2
21:06
Right. Well yeah. Exactly. Ai. And and so I I I like to remind them. Right? When I talk about well, let’s talk about that. What do we know? And then I ai take them through that little, that little thought process of, the Venn diagram just to say, hey. Look. Right? These two models are not compatible.
Speaker: 2
21:23
That says there there’s a bigger circle, right, that that connects the dots between all this stuff. And I highly doubt we’ll ever come up with a single, you know, a single step that goes from just the, you know, the two circles on ai Venn diagram to a final one, some grand unified theory.
Speaker: 2
21:38
I I don’t think we’ll ever take, like, one single step. I think it’s gonna be a series of a bunch of different steps by a bunch of different people over many generations. And it’s like there’s so much stuff to go figure out. Come, you know, come help us push back against the darkness.
Speaker: 2
21:53
Help us, you know, forever hunting the edge of the map, if you will. Right? And so I think sometimes in in today’s society, we we get lulled into this sense of security that we got it all figured out. Ai mean, we got Ai. It says all kinds of neat neat helps us out, all, you know, all these different things.
Speaker: 2
22:09
And so we get lulled into this sense that we’ve got it all figured out, and there’s just there’s so much mystery out there for us to go figure out.
Speaker: 1
22:17
Also, there’s a lot of people that are full of shit that are moneying up the water, so it’s very difficult to know what is exactly true at any current moment. Yeah. I mean, just in the UAP world, there’s a ton of grifters. There’s a ton of people that are just putting sensational nonsense out to just get a bunch of clicks.
Speaker: 2
22:34
And in some ways, I I you know, when again, when I talk to students and I I kinda give them suggestions and advice and mentoring, it’s like, if you’ve got some particular area that you’re interested in and it’s highly technical, you know, go do the work that’s necessary to give yourself the, you know, the math skills, the engineering skills, the ai, whatever you need. Make sure you’re equipped, right, so that you can whatever’s in front of you, you can go look at it with a discerning eye. Right?
Speaker: 2
23:02
Because like you said, the the Internet’s changed the world for both the better and the worse. Right? The signal to noise ratio has changed a lot. There’s a lot of noise, out there. And so the the best thing you can do to try and cope with something like that is just to make sure you’re trained, right, and you’re capable of being able to discern, something that’s real versus something that’s, you know, nonsense.
Speaker: 1
23:25
So what is real in terms of at least conceptually, what is real, about warp drives?
Speaker: 2
23:34
You know, the, great question. The when we talk about, space exploration, right, a lot of times people think of, ai, a a Falcon nine rocket, Saturn ai, or, a speak shuttle. And these are these are all wonderful examples that should come to ai. But this this is, this is what we need to get to space. Right?
Speaker: 2
23:59
You gotta climb against the gravitational well, if you will, and and get into space. But when you when you get into space and you wanna try and move through space, right, you the things that you might use to solve that problem, in an optimal sense might look very differently from the idea of of rockets to get you, to space.
Speaker: 2
24:17
And so through speak, there’s a lot of things that we can bring to bear. But this this gets into, I think, a a a larger framework I’d like to unpack with you today, to talk about this this through space type of thought process. But since you specifically asked about WARP, I’m gonna kinda jump forward. Sure. I’m gonna jump forward on the the discussion thread.
Speaker: 1
24:37
We don’t have to. We use it as a teaser.
Speaker: 2
24:39
Okay. Well, let’s let’s use that as a teaser. Let’s let’s back up then. And, so I I, you know, I I provided a, a video that we pulled together, called Go Incredibly Fast. I did it with a a Swedish digital artist, Eric Orinquist. He’s done a bunch of wonderful videos for NASA, and a bunch of other friends.
Speaker: 2
24:59
But this this video, kind of encapsulates, the challenge of time and distance in space. Right? If you wanna send human beings past Mars in the solar system, that sets up a problem statement, right, that changes the nature of the types of technologies that you might think about bringing to bear to to solve the problem.
Speaker: 2
25:19
And so this video tells us, what’s what are some things that we can do to solve this problem, spanning from things that we kinda know to things that we kinda don’t know in terms of both physics and engineering. And so this video is kind of a, an emotional encapsulation of a highly technical story.
Speaker: 2
25:39
So let’s watch this to be a great way to kinda, tee off this discussion.
Speaker: 1
25:45
The sky calls to us. We do not destroy ourselves. We are one day venture to the stars. Carl Sagan.
Speaker: 4
25:58
As incredible as it may seem, there will be a ai, and it may be closer than you think, when we live on other worlds, the moon, Mars, and in the space between. And when that day comes, just as always, our children will look with curiosity across these new horizons with a desire to go further and to explore what lies beyond.
Speaker: 4
26:27
But beyond Mars, the distances between worlds grow immensely even within our own solar system and become truly vast in between stars. If we ever want to reach out across these distances, we need to learn how to go fast.
Speaker: 1
26:54
Nuclear electric propulsion. Here we go.
Speaker: 2
26:58
Yeah. So this is what we know. Using our current knowledge of physics and engineering,
Speaker: 4
27:02
we could build nuclear locomotives to take humans to all the worlds in our solar system. But a starship powered with a nuclear heart aimed for even our closest star, Proxima Centauri, would have to harbor hundreds of generations of people all living their entire lives aboard before reaching its destination four and a quarter light years away.
Speaker: 4
27:28
It would take two years just to reach the orbit of Saturn and another two thousand years to reach Proxima Centauri. We need to be able to go faster.
Speaker: 1
27:48
Fusion propulsion.
Speaker: 2
27:52
We should rerecord this with you doing that for each other in the years. Knowledge of physics. But with engineering, we have yet
Speaker: 4
27:58
to develop. We can imagine a propulsion system with the sun for a heart. A fusion engine that could accelerate a starship up to 5%
Speaker: 2
28:09
of the speed of light.
Speaker: 4
28:14
This ship could cross the orbit of Saturn in six months and reach Proxima Centauri in just over a century. But if we want to traverse interstellar distances in less than a human lifetime, we have to go incredibly fast. The universe has shown us that this can be done by altering the scale of space vatsal, and we are working to develop new understandings of physics to learn how this might be controlled.
Speaker: 4
28:50
If we could construct a starship with a propulsion system that decreases space in front of it and expands speak behind it, this ship could cross enormous distances effectively faster
Speaker: 2
29:08
than the speed of ai.
Speaker: 4
29:15
Such a ship would reach from Mars to Saturn Ram there, there are no limits to where we could go. Perhaps one day, humanity will look up at an alien night sky and strain to find the pale yellow dot that is our sun, our home, and know for the first time
Speaker: 2
29:58
as we look back on ourselves
Speaker: 4
30:00
that we are not alone in the universe. This journey starts today.
Speaker: 1
30:11
Woah. First of all, whoever did the graphics
Speaker: 2
30:14
for that. Yeah. Eric Orinquist, was the the Swedish digital arya that we used to develop that, that video. And sai,
Speaker: 1
30:23
that guy nailed it.
Speaker: 2
30:24
Oh meh gosh. That was pretty cool. Yeah. We had, we had a, like, a a three swim lane chart, if you will. That’s a very technical version of this. We we have a copy of it. We don’t we don’t need to bring it up, Jamie. I can just do it verbally here. But it kind of encapsulates that thought process of this time distance problem. You know, when we think about space exploration with humans, we think about Mars. Right?
Speaker: 2
30:46
We’re trying to we’ve sent human beings to the moon. We’re probably gonna go back to the moon, sooner rather than later. And then, eventually, we wanna send human beings, to Mars. But what if we wanted to send human beings to Saturn and we wanna get them there in two hundred days?
Speaker: 2
31:03
These are that’s a time frame that’s kinda compatible with what we’ve thought about for humans to Mars, one hundred and eighty to two hundred and twenty days. If you frame the question that way, the amount of energy that’s necessary to get humans, to Saturn in two hundred days is an order of magnitude more energy than it takes to get a payload from the surface of the Earth to low Earth orbit.
Speaker: 2
31:28
So all that to say, right, that particular problem, chemical propulsion can’t solve that problem. And so this is this is starting to kind of frame the discussion, the this narrative that we’ve pulled together when we talk to students all around the globe, the difference between to space and the difference of through space.
Speaker: 2
31:48
When you talk about through space, the distances are just so big. Right? You have to rethink the problem, especially when you constrain it with, how long does it take, to get there. Right? And so, this particular video encapsulates things that we might do, to solve problems like that and maybe even into another star system talking about, things that we know.
Speaker: 2
32:11
Like, the very first part of the video, the vignette was, like you said, nuclear electric prop I can’t do your voice theory all right. Nuclear electric propulsion. Right? And so this is a situation where it’s known physics, known engineering. We’ve got a nuclear reactor, that’s fissioning uranium, let’s say.
Speaker: 2
32:29
It’s splitting apart atoms, and that’s the source of energy. You use that energy to plug into some form of electric propulsion. Like, you got the neon sign that’s behind you. Imagine, you could take one of those tubes and and cut the end off and allow the blue the the blue or green glowy bit to come out the back.
Speaker: 2
32:49
Right? And so the efficiency of electric propulsion versus chemical propulsion is much better. And so that’s a way we can potentially think of a spacecraft architecture, nuclear electric propulsion, a nuclear reactor coupled to some form of electric propulsion that allows us to send human beings to Saturn in two hundred days.
Speaker: 2
33:12
And, technically speaking, that capability, if we didn’t invent anything else beyond that, that would allow us to send human beings everywhere in the solar system. That’s why that’s extremely important. And now we’re getting into the the passion of what I fought fought for, so hard working at NASA to try and advocate for this understanding of the big difference between, these two types of problems, if you will.
Speaker: 2
33:37
If we, you know, if if we make up our minds, to perfect the idea of nuclear electric propulsion as a capability, I mean, that unlocks the whole solar system. Ai? That’s just kinda like the just the tip of the iceberg. And so the video then goes on after we, you know, after we kinda say, you know, nuclear electric propulsion, can open up a lot of stuff for us.
Speaker: 2
33:59
But it’s still gonna take you remember how long it said to go to Proxima Centauri?
Speaker: 1
34:03
It was
Speaker: 2
34:03
like, you know Hundred years. I don’t know. Vatsal two two thousand years for the new the new Oh,
Speaker: 1
34:07
that’s right.
Speaker: 2
34:07
Sai, I mean, I don’t know about you, but that better be one comfortable window seat. Right? That’s a long time to be on a flight, if you will.
Speaker: 1
34:13
No. Yeah. How screwed up Yeah.
Speaker: 2
34:15
For the
Speaker: 1
34:15
people that live. Right. Because you’re inbreeding.
Speaker: 2
34:18
Yeah. Well, it’s yes. It definitely it’s gonna be generations. Right? So either you generations.
Speaker: 1
34:22
You’re gonna have to have babies and, like, with who?
Speaker: 2
34:25
Yeah. Right. How
Speaker: 1
34:25
are you gonna do that? How are you gonna choose? We’re gonna have arranged marriages and spaces that ram?
Speaker: 3
34:29
Right. Right. You know?
Speaker: 2
34:31
But right.
Speaker: 1
34:31
We’re gonna force people to carry child children? Yeah.
Speaker: 2
34:33
Or it had or they might be frozen ai, was it what’s that movie with the blue aliens? I can’t remember. Right.
Speaker: 1
34:41
Imagine if they’re debating a woman’s right to choose while they’re in space. Oh my gosh. You know what I’m saying? Oh meh gosh. Right. It gets weird.
Speaker: 2
34:47
Yeah. Yeah. So
Speaker: 1
34:48
Sana need to keep civilization Ai. If if you all commit, but I didn’t commit. My grandparents did. But you’re still on this thing.
Speaker: 2
34:53
It’s like yeah. My my great great great great great grandparents ai. Right?
Speaker: 1
34:57
This episode is brought to you by Visible. Now, you know, I tend to go down a lot of rabbit holes. I want to know everything about everything. And if you’re like that, you need wireless that can keep up. Visible is wireless that lets you live in the know. It’s the ultimate wireless hack.
Speaker: 1
35:15
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Speaker: 1
35:33
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Speaker: 1
35:49
For the best features, get the new Visible Plus Pro plan for $45 a month. Terms apply. See Visible.com for plan features and network management details. Not only that, the reality is ai the time they get there, the human beings will have created technology that far exceeds that and probably beat them to it.
Speaker: 2
36:09
Yeah. You kinda see that hinted in the video too. Right? Where you got the you got the slow boat and then you got the Fusion’s the next one that comes bryden the guy’s, like, you know, waving, as he goes by. Well, for sure,
Speaker: 1
36:20
you would be a sucker to get on the first ship because by the time it gets there
Speaker: 0
36:24
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
36:24
The new ships will have already been there for months.
Speaker: 2
36:27
Yeah. Yeah. They’ll welcome you when you arrive. Right? The grandchildren
Speaker: 1
36:30
of those people will welcome you. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
36:32
So the the the fusion propulsion is kind of the next step in the story. And so when we make that step, we’re a little bit into the unknown. Right? We we understand the we understand the physics. Right? The sun at the center of our solar system works on fuse, and it fuses atoms together instead of splitting them apart to generate electricity.
Speaker: 2
36:51
And so fusion propulsion is kind of another step in capability, right, that allows us to do, maybe do an interstellar mission that’s measured in a hundred, maybe two hundred years. Still ai long, but that’s a lot more respectable than two thousand years. But, contrary to what the movie Iron Man might say, we don’t have fusion reactors that are gigawatts the size of this coffee cup. Ai?
Speaker: 1
37:16
Sai sticking your chest.
Speaker: 2
37:17
Yeah. Yeah. We we got we got we got we got a little work to do, before we get there.
Speaker: 1
37:23
So The that comic book was written probably in the fifties.
Speaker: 2
37:26
Right. Right.
Speaker: 1
37:27
Right. So when you think about this kind of progress, this ability to generate that amount of power and to bend gravity and to bend speak, what kind of a timeline do you think we’re on for something like that?
Speaker: 2
37:44
That’s actually one of the most popular questions I get when I I go talk to to students. Right? Whenever you you talk about that that last swim lane in the video, the idea of a space warp, you know, you can expand and contract speak, and that allows us to potentially go somewhere in in months, whereas we were just previously talking about, millennia and centuries.
Speaker: 2
38:03
Right? And so just to remind, folks, we just talked about, everything that we know of physics today, quantum mechanics, general relativity. Right? We gotta add some more stuff to the Venn diagram, to develop an understanding. And so my crystal ball is no better than yours, Joe.
Speaker: 2
38:22
I I I couldn’t say specifically, if, when, something like that might happen. But I can sai, I actually do know what we need to be working on right now. Right? And so in that context, right, I I’m certainly doing the things that that, I think might help make meaningful progress towards that type of operative goal at some point in time.
Speaker: 2
38:45
But, you know, I I I just don’t know how long it might take. And so let me let me ai give a a an experience, that I had. When so I I taught at International Space University, over in Strasbourg in, France, And they have they have a cathedral there in Strasbourg. Absolutely stunning.
Speaker: 2
39:06
But the the thing that’s even more interesting about this structure, it’s, like, 500 feet tall. They started building it in November, and they didn’t finish the cathedral until seventeen hundred AD. So the the people that built the basement had no hope of seeing the finished product.
Speaker: 2
39:31
All they could do was imagine in their mind’s eye what it might look like, and they but they knew what they needed to do to ai make meaningful progress. And so they did their work, and then they hand the baton off to the next generation. Maybe they’re putting the floor in, and then another generation does the the buttresses and so forth.
Speaker: 2
39:50
So, from that standpoint, I think sometimes it’s important to you know, we talk about teamwork. Right? Teamwork is a a a great thing. But teamwork, we typically think of shoulder to shoulder. Right? But I I think there’s also value in teamwork across generations, if you will. Right?
Speaker: 2
40:08
In in a day and age where you get impatient if you text somebody and they don’t text you back in, like, thirty seconds Right. I think we’ve lost an appreciation for the value of what that means, right, in terms of working over stuff longer than what your horizon might be. I’d love to see the idea of a space warp, you know, before I I I go to the next chapter, but I I don’t know that that will happen for sure.
Speaker: 2
40:32
But I do know specifically what I need to be doing. And so from that standpoint, that’s how I kinda that’s how I grapple with that particular question. Because what I mean, it’s a it’s a wonderful question, and I I would love to be able to tell you a a very concise answer that would fit with what I would hope it would be.
Speaker: 2
40:48
But I don’t know for certain. But I do know what I need to be doing next. And that and that gets into maybe we can unpack that in just a little bit. That gets into the idea of how the idea of a space warp works and how that traces back to those two circles on the Venn diagram. Right. Well, sure.
Speaker: 2
41:02
In general too. About that. Yeah. So, maybe what we can do, Jamie, I sent you, there’s a there’s a slide that’s got, like, a a a cartoon space warp. It looks like a little, sheet of, a mesh or something like that. I don’t know how to explain it.
Speaker: 2
41:20
If you could pull up, There
Speaker: 1
41:21
it is.
Speaker: 2
41:22
There it is. Yes. Oh, wow. That’s the one. That’s the one. So we we actually did that graphic on the right for, Nature, the journal Nature. They were doing a article on the fiftieth anniversary of Star Trek, and so they asked us to, pull together that graphic.
Speaker: 1
41:35
Oh, cool.
Speaker: 2
41:36
And so this is, this is a, an illustration of the ai of a a speak warp. Let me give just a little bit of background. You know, in in in physics, there is a speed limit that we have to acknowledge when we talk about trying to go somewhere really quickly. Right? And so I I like to call it the eleventh commandment of physics, thou shah not exceed the speed of light. Right?
Speaker: 2
41:57
It’s kind of a hard and fast speed limit. And so if you talk about trying to get to another star that’s four and a quarter light years away, that might or that should automatically set in your ai. Well, shoot. We can’t get any there can’t get there any quicker than four and a quarter light years. Right?
Speaker: 2
42:12
Well, there is a little bit of hope because there’s a loophole in general relativity that establishes that hard speed limit. General relativity says we can expand and contract space at any speed, and we see evidence for this. When we look at the nature of the cosmos, right, right after the big bang, fourteen billion years ago, there was something called an inflationary phase, right, where if you were to pick two random points in this expanding bubble of the early cosmos, you stood on one point and you looked at another point and and figured out how fast it was moving away from you.
Speaker: 2
42:50
It would move away from you, like, 10 to the thirtieth you know, 10 with 30 zeros times the speed of light. Sai, yeah, really, really, really fast. Right? And so we we know from astrophysics and cosmology that this is possible. And so, this idea was, kinda rattling around in a physicist’s brain called Alcubierre who said, hey.
Speaker: 2
43:13
You know, this is it’s interesting. Nature can do it on a grand scale. Can we potentially do it on a purposeful in a purposeful way? And so he published a paper in 1994 that ai of encapsulated the mathematics, for this idea. And if you if you take his mathematics and you put it into physical form, it’s sana look like my little cartoon here on the right.
Speaker: 2
43:36
And so you got the the little ring that goes around the the little surface here. It looks like a wave, and then there’s a little central portion there. It kinda looks like a a football, let’s say. And so what happens is that ring that goes around that little football, that’s what would that’s what’s necessary to make the trick work.
Speaker: 2
43:54
And so it has to be filled with something called, exotic matter. And so that’s an important issue. Right? What’s exotic matter? Right?
Speaker: 2
44:03
So it’s it’s something in general relativity, that’s also equivalent to negative mass. And so we all understand positive mass, right? If your little brother hits you on the head with something, that’s positive mass hitting your head, right? Negative mass is not only zero mass, but it’s a negative value.
Speaker: 2
44:21
And so what does that even mean? And so, in the context of general relativity, if we come up with a model that requires exotic matter, we have to highlight that as a problem because we don’t in general relativity, general relativity doesn’t tell us how to make that. And so that could potentially be an obstacle that would prevent something like this from ever being physically real.
Speaker: 2
44:42
But if we could figure out how to make it, and I’ll actually speak to that in just a saloni, if we could make that and we could create a ring that could manifest that exotic matter, it would cause space time to respond in such a way so that it would expand and contract to allow you to go to Proxima Centauri in five and a half months as measured by you onboard the spacecraft in that football and as measured by, folks over in mission control over in, Houston.
Speaker: 2
45:09
Woah.
Speaker: 1
45:11
Now this exotic matter, what do you speculate that would what would that be?
Speaker: 2
45:19
So exotic matter and this the the cool thing is, hey. These are the equations. So there’ll there’ll be a test later, Joe. So
Speaker: 1
45:26
Oh, I’m ready.
Speaker: 2
45:28
So, in Alcubierre’s paper in 1994, right, he he rightly highlights the fact that, hey. There’s a problem. Danger, Will Robinson. This stuff requires exotic matter that may mean it’s, nonphysical. However, he highlights the fact, hey. We have this other circle over here called quantum mechanics, and there’s something in the context of quantum mechanics called negative vacuum energy density.
Speaker: 2
45:54
And so, that’s something that’s connected to the idea of the Casimir force. We’ll we’ll unpack that later, but, that is something that could serve as a proxy for the idea of exotic matter and may help us one day make the idea of a a speak warp a physical real thing. Woah.
Speaker: 1
46:15
Sai this ability to to to to go as fast as you’re describing where you could conceivably make it to other source systems. Yeah. This obviously is a version of it that will probably be improved upon.
Speaker: 2
46:32
Mhmm. Right.
Speaker: 1
46:33
So if this ever does come to fruition, you could conceivably imagine a time where you generate even more power Mhmm. Have even more capability, and you can go everywhere in the universe.
Speaker: 2
46:43
Right. Right. Potentially. Yeah. It it it it unlocks, just about anything. I you know, if we let’s go back a slide real quick, Jamie. I wanna share something with you. So the next time you’re in an airport, you can do this. Right?
Speaker: 1
46:54
Okay.
Speaker: 2
46:55
So if you, you know, if you wanna try and imagine, the idea how a how a speak warp works, in in theory, if you will. This is now this is just a thought experiment. So thought experiments aren’t exactly precise, but they do help communicate the idea. So you know when you go to an airport and they’ve got those, those, long conveyor belts, if you will. Yes. I think they call them travelators.
Speaker: 2
47:18
And so they help us, move quicker between gates.
Speaker: 1
47:22
Yeah. By the way, folks, you’re supposed to walk on those things. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Hear me?
Speaker: 2
47:26
Absolutely. Walk. Right. Right. Easy blocks. So the the you know, if you think about what happens when you, make use of one of these travelators, it’s just like you sai, most of us walk. Right? So we’re when we’re when we’re at airport, we’re walking, we’re dragging our bag. We usually walk about three miles an hour.
Speaker: 2
47:44
And then when we get onto the belt, we keep walking. Now if you think about what so let’s say Jamie’s sitting at a a gate and he’s watching watching you walk ai. Before you get on get on to the belt, he sees you walking at three miles an hour. When you get on to the belt, all of a sudden to Jamie, it looks like you’re going six miles an hour. So what’s going on here?
Speaker: 2
48:06
Well, think about think about the belt. Right? The length of the belt in front of you, what’s happening to it? It’s it’s technically, it’s it’s it’s going underneath. Right?
Speaker: 2
48:14
Because this is a metaphor. Right. It it’s going underneath. But the length of belt in front of you is actually contracting. Right. Right?
Speaker: 2
48:20
And so by the same token, the length of belt behind you yes. It’s coming it’s a conveyor belt, but it’s expanding behind you. So the belt is contracting and expanding in such a way that it now seems like to Jamie that you’re you’re moving at six miles an hour. So the next time you go to an airport and you get on to one of these travelators, I want you to put your hand on the railing and sai, engage.
Speaker: 1
48:44
Well, that it’s a great comparison. Totally makes sense if you think about expanding that idea just infinitely with gravity and just being able to
Speaker: 2
48:53
ai? And that video, by
Speaker: 1
48:55
the way, is so cool. Like, the way he generated that and looks exactly like these people describe things they’re saying in terms of, you know, when when people find UAPs that are particularly unusual.
Speaker: 2
49:11
Right. The the cool thing is if you’d, pop forward, one more ai, Jamie. There we go. The when you look at the math and physics associated with this, right, the, the proper acceleration alpha onboard the spacecraft is, formerly zero. So what that means when they turn the warp on and off, it doesn’t, like, splatter the crew against the bulkhead.
Speaker: 2
49:37
You talked about in the beginning of the show, we talked about g forces. Right. Right? And so, I don’t know if Alcubierre specifically was hoping to to, you you know, land on that kind of observation, but the little toy model they came up with has got a lot of appealing characteristics, and that’s one of them.
Speaker: 2
49:53
Right? When you turn the work on and off, the proper acceleration alpha is formally zero. So it’s actually zero g. So That’s fast. He stumbled into a really ai, a really nice solution, if you will.
Speaker: 2
50:05
If if you don’t mind, while we’re here, I’d love to maybe spend just a second to, talk about life imitating art. There’s a there’s some interesting things that, I think it’s the next slide or two. I keep going. We’ll come back to this one another another time. So this is, it’s a modern rendering done by Mark Rademacher, a a digital artist from The Netherlands I’ve worked with over the years.
Speaker: 2
50:31
This is a Shah Trek ship concept, that was developed by Matthew Jeffries in the sixties for the TV show Sai Trek. And so you might notice there are some qualitative similarities here, to this, this little structure to the the little gray cartoon that I just showed you. It’s got the rings on it. Right? It’s got this little central structure. But there are there are actually a couple of fatal flaws with this concept.
Speaker: 2
50:59
But the the the thing that’s fascinating to me before we talk about the the things we’re gonna fix is Matthew Jeffries is not a physicist, number one. Number two, the the math and physics associated with the idea of a space warp hadn’t been published, in the sixties when he came up with this artwork.
Speaker: 2
51:15
But look how close he got, right, for somebody just just, you know, just following his gut instinct in terms of pulling something together.
Speaker: 1
51:22
What was his background? Was did he have some sort of a background in science?
Speaker: 2
51:25
I I couldn’t I couldn’t say. I don’t know for certain, but, man, he sure did
Speaker: 1
51:30
He nailed it.
Speaker: 2
51:31
He, yeah, he sure did get close.
Speaker: 1
51:32
He got so close, I ai.
Speaker: 2
51:34
Yeah. Sai the the the interesting thing is the the nature of this ship, the fatal flaws that it had has so we we did a we did a update of this as part of, like, an education outreach. So I I reached out to Mark Rainmaker and some folks from CBS Studios, and so we we did an updated version of this, for Star Trek ships of the line calendar.
Speaker: 2
51:54
That’s cooler. Yeah. And that’s the one that’s in the video. Right? The IXS Enterprise. Go back just one more one slide, Jamie.
Speaker: 2
52:00
So the the problem with this, version here is the rings that go around the spaceship are entirely too thin. So when you calculate how much of the exotic matter I just talked about that you might need to make this thing do something useful, it’s gonna be a very large number that might be impossible to ever make.
Speaker: 2
52:19
So it’s like fatal flaw number one. Fatal flaw number two is the bridge of the spaceship goes way out in front of where the warp bubble would form, as a result of those rings. So the rings would form like a a warp bubble that looks like a little capsule. It would actually cut the bridge off, and the bridge would go floating away.
Speaker: 2
52:35
Oh, boy. And Scotty would be so fired.
Speaker: 1
52:37
That’s not good.
Speaker: 2
52:38
That’d be a short sai episode of Star Trek. Saloni hope they have a parachute. Right. Right. Exactly. So we we work with CBS Studios.
Speaker: 1
52:43
Now you
Speaker: 2
52:44
can go to the next slide. So now we’ve got, you know, the rings are much more athletic. They have more heft to them. They’re thicker, so that reduces the energy requirements. And then the spaceship itself is kinda properly nestled into the, the warp bubble.
Speaker: 1
52:58
It just looks cooler. Right.
Speaker: 2
53:00
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
53:00
Like all things from the past, they they can make a better version today.
Speaker: 2
53:04
Right. Right. Right.
Speaker: 1
53:05
Right. Right. So this this exotic material, do you imagine that this is an undiscovered element? Do you what what do you what’s the theory?
Speaker: 2
53:16
Right. Yeah. It’s so and this is where this is the lamentate the the reason for some of the lamentation, right, about general relativity and quantum mechanics. General relativity just doesn’t tell us how to address it. Right? It just simply says you have to highlight it in your paper before you submit it for peer review and say this this may cause problems.
Speaker: 2
53:36
But quantum mechanics, has this stuff called negative vacuum energy density. Right? And so maybe we can unpack that. Please do. So what what is negative vacuum energy density?
Speaker: 2
53:49
Sai, the let let’s let’s talk about some of the implications of quantum mechanics, and how they’re a little different from our our day to day experience at this at the, you know, the macroscopic level. Right? Empty space in quantum mechanics is actually not empty. So if I if I told you to think about a a vacuum chamber, right, and I told you the vacuum chamber is under vacuum and there’s nothing no nothing in the vacuum chamber.
Speaker: 2
54:17
Right? And that that operative word, nothing. Right? That you have vacuum pumps that turn on and pull all the air out, so there’s nothing in the the vacuum chamber. Quantum mechanics says, wait a minute. Hold on. The idea of empty space, even though there’s this classical vacuum, right, that we might think about, it’s not actually empty.
Speaker: 2
54:34
There’s these fluctuating fields and forces that are always going on all the time. So even though, like, this is the this is Plum Brook, you know, NASA’s large vacuum chamber, up in Ai. And so if you imagine you took that, that vacuum chamber and pumped on it sai there was no air on there, and then you might say there’s nothing in that vacuum chamber.
Speaker: 2
54:53
Well, quantum mechanics says that at the microscopic level, there are fluctuating fields and particles all the time. And so this sounds very very, very, you know, counterintuitive to what we what we experience in our day to day life. Right? You pick up a coffee cup and you push against a door. Right? That’s how we think of the world, if you will.
Speaker: 2
55:12
But quantum mechanics deals with the microscopic realm, and things are a little bit different. And so that’s ai of background. So you can there this peculiar nature that I’m explaining to you, you can actually do an experiment that provides you a observational consequence of this peculiar nature, and it’s it’s called the Meh Force.
Speaker: 2
55:39
I think I have a slide in there, Jamie. So the Casimir Force, can be thought of in the following way. Imagine that you’ve got two metal plates, like you see here in the graphic. You put them very, very close to one another. That separation distance is maybe a hundred nanometers, so certainly much smaller than a human hair, very, very small distance.
Speaker: 2
55:59
And then you imagine you have a a vacuum chamber, that you put these two small plates in, and then you turn on the vacuum pumps and you pull all of the air out. So there’s nothing in there. Right? At least that’s the way we would think about it. Sai now we’re gonna conduct a little thought experiment.
Speaker: 2
56:16
We’re gonna imagine that Jamie has superhero powers, and he can shrink himself down to being a a wee ai little atomic person. And we’re gonna ask him to go into the vacuum chamber, And we’re gonna ask him to measure the pressure on the outside of the plates, and we’re gonna ask him to measure the pressure in between the two plates.
Speaker: 2
56:36
And so we’re gonna expect based on the normal way we exist, he’s gonna say zero zero on the outside, and he’s gonna say zero in between the two plates. But what he’s gonna report back is he’s going to say zero pressure on the outside like we expect, but he’s gonna say there is a negative pressure between the two plates.
Speaker: 2
56:56
Well, what the hell is going on? Well, the quantum field is full of fluctuating fields and forces. Matter is both a particle and a wave. You may have heard that statement at some point in your life. And so all these little bits of energy, right, they have wavelengths associated with them.
Speaker: 2
57:15
And so any wavelength that is bigger than the physical gap of the cavity, it won’t be able to manifest between the cavity. So when we add up all the bits of energy on the outside, that’s our zero reference. When we add up all the bits of energy on the outside and then we add up all the bits of energy in between the two plates, there are less bits of energy because all the bigger wavelengths are excluded.
Speaker: 2
57:40
And so there is a deficiency of vacuum energy that manifests between the two plates, and that results in that negative pressure that wants to pull those two plates together. That’s called the Casimir force. Sai guy by the name of Casimir was the guy that derived that back in 1948, but it took us until the late nineties to actually measure this in the lab to the physics community’s satisfaction.
Speaker: 2
58:06
And so it’s been studied hundreds of times since, you know, measuring forces at different regimes, if you will. And there’s also something called the transverse Casimir force. So when you try and when you try and slide those two plates relative to one another, the vacuum wants to resist you sliding those two plates.
Speaker: 2
58:29
And so this is a very real phenomena, and it’s sana a a wonderful illustration of the peculiar nature of reality at the microscopic level. Ai? So, you know, the the theory was worked out in the the late forties. The experimental stuff was started in the nineties, and then there’s been a bunch of work since then.
Speaker: 2
58:49
And I think they’re even looking at looking at trying to use the Casimir force in MEMS devices. But all that to
Speaker: 1
58:56
What is the MEMS device?
Speaker: 2
58:57
Microelectromechanical machine, some small gears that you can’t see with your eyes, but they they they serve different purposes that people are trying to come up with for sensors, maybe some things in your car, some future chips that might be in your phone or something like that, things that they where they make, ai mechanical systems that, they make them with light because you can’t even see those kinds of things. So the quantum vacuum, this, this fluctuating field of, particles and forces and so forth, is a very real phenomena.
Speaker: 2
59:29
And so this stuff I just described to you is, is the negative vacuum energy density that Alcubierre highlighted in his paper when he sai, we don’t know how to make exotic matter in general relativity. So that circle on the Venn diagram doesn’t tell us where to go, but quantum mechanics tells us how to make negative vacuum energy density in the in the context of what we see in a chasm or cavity.
Speaker: 2
59:55
And so maybe we can you know, some future generation of scientists will figure out how to do something in some way to like, if you ask what’s in that in those rings around the the IXS enterprise. Right? You know, maybe it’s some deeper understanding of the nature of the quantum vacuum.
Speaker: 2
01:00:13
And and point in fact, in, you know, I I talked to you about you asked me when when might this happen. And I said, you know, I Ai can’t tell you when, but I know what I need to be doing next. Right? And so in my mind, I think some of the the next big chapters in physics are gonna be centered around understanding the nature of the quantum quantum vacuum or the quantum field.
Speaker: 2
01:00:36
I think there’s gonna be a lot of fruit there, and that may provide us the opportunity to add more circles to the Venn diagram or maybe expand one or what have you and so forth. So So
Speaker: 1
01:00:45
what kind of experiments have to be conducted in order to expand this? Like, is it are you talking about things that are gonna be achieved in particle colliders?
Speaker: 2
01:00:54
Like, how
Speaker: 1
01:00:55
are they like, what what do you anticipate?
Speaker: 2
01:00:58
That’s a that that’s a good question. And I’m there so there’s a lot of different approaches people have taken to try and explore, the nature of the quantum vacuum. And you could even start to look at cosmological observations. We talk about dark energy. Right? That’s equated to the quantum vacuum at scale and the the cosmological scale, if you will.
Speaker: 2
01:01:21
Ai think there’s even some recent stuff that’s come out in the peer reviewed literature that the cosmological constant may not be constant. It may actually be changing over time. And so there’s some experimentation. It has nothing to do with the I idea of a speak warp. They don’t they the you know, the people that do work on that could care less about space warps.
Speaker: 2
01:01:39
But they’re trying to understand the nature of the cosmological constant of the quantum vacuum at scale. So there’s a a domain where some interesting work might be done. I know universities all over the globe still do work today with studying the Casimir force. They’re they make different types of things, different materials, and so forth just to try and understand how materials respond when they make these small things and trying to understand how the quantum vacuum works with it.
Speaker: 2
01:02:04
But I think there’s also some other other things that we can try. Right? And so that goes I think you’ve seen some of our work that we’ve been doing, right, with some nanostructured devices, that we were we we’ve been doing some work for DARPA for a number of years, where we were we’re actually trying to work on some systems that generate power.
Speaker: 2
01:02:23
And so in the process of doing that, we’ve actually found that our nanotechnology may actually have some, intersections with the idea of a speak warp. So, I Ai think it’s When
Speaker: 1
01:02:37
you you’re saying that, like, our nanotechnology might be used to create some sort of a space warp? What in what way?
Speaker: 2
01:02:46
Right. Jamie, can you pull up, one of those slides close to the the, not that one. Go back. Keep going back a little bit more. There’s keep yeah. Keep going up. Ai right there. Right ai there. So there’s this on the left hand side of this image, there is a scanning electron microscope image of a nanostructure that we in this case, we three d printed, and then we metallized it.
Speaker: 2
01:03:17
And so the work that we were doing for DARPA associated with that structure, is focused on trying to harvest energy from the quantum field. And so we’re we’re we’ve we’ve been working towards trying to generate a voltage potential on that little structure where the pillars in the middle are at a different voltage from the walls that are in the, in the, in the the picture there.
Speaker: 2
01:03:40
And in the process of doing the analysis to help us understand, how thin do we need to make those rod like structures you see inside the cavity gap, when we study how the quantum field responds to those structures, we noticed a ai of an unanticipated intersection with the idea of a space warp.
Speaker: 2
01:04:03
If you look at there’s, like, in the in the in the picture, there’s, like, a little blue surface overlaid on top of the center pillar there, and you’ve got those two little regions that are, like, yellow. I think Jamie just moved his mouse Mhmm. Over those. Right? So that’s the pillar. And if you move up, that blue surface, shows the quantum field’s response.
Speaker: 2
01:04:22
So the that that negative vacuum energy density distribution you you hear me talking about, that is a like a section cut in terms of what that looks like. And so we’re trying to make sure that the nature of that distribution allows us to see a voltage difference, right, which which we do see.
Speaker: 2
01:04:41
But, that now we can go to the the middle pane here. The the top picture there is that image on the bottom left. And so you see those little yellow, kinda looks like a lenticular shape. And then if you look at the picture beneath that, that is a section cut of a space warp, that ring that goes around the spaceship.
Speaker: 2
01:05:03
So if you look at the distribution of the exotic matter on the bottom pane versus the distribution of negative vacuum energy density in the top, they’re qualitatively very similar to one another. So we as part of an extra credit, right, we’re we’re still you know, DARPA doesn’t care about the idea of a speak warp, to be clear.
Speaker: 2
01:05:23
They they don’t they don’t care about that. But this as scientists, you know, we were interested in, wow, we didn’t expect to see this. This is this is interesting. And so we took that ai, and we said, alright. The the the distribution that’s on the left around that center pillar, it’s prismatic. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:05:42
It’s it’s a straight up and down ai of distribution. It’s not a ring, which is what we might think about when we think about a speak warp. So we said, alright. Well, let’s do a let’s do a slightly different model. Let’s make a sphere inside a cylinder, and then let’s study how the quantum field responds to that structure.
Speaker: 2
01:06:01
And so the energy density distribution to that, the little green items there in the cartoon, the energy density distribution for that properly matches the requirements for the idea of a speak warp. And so we put we published a paper. Yeah. This is significant. Why?
Speaker: 2
01:06:18
Because before we did that, the only thing we could talk about in the literature was just the math. Right? If somebody said, well, what might you build to make something like that? You know, all we could do is just shrug our shoulders and go, uh-oh. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:06:31
And so this allowed us to go through and say, hey. You know, now we can propose a real structure, right, that we can we can potentially and you can three d print that. There are three d printers that print down to that level. Right? We could three d print those structures.
Speaker: 2
01:06:46
Maybe some clever ai will come up with a good experiment on how to go through and maybe study the optical properties of this. And somebody could do something like that where they could take our insights that we published in our paper, and then they could go three d print some stuff and do some experiments to show that they can, hey.
Speaker: 2
01:07:03
We’ve measured the the change in optical properties associated with these little tiny warp bubbles that we’re making on a chip, if you will. And so maybe that could be something a a future scientist could do. But this is the first time in the literature that we can actually say as a community, this is a real thing that we could go make, and it’s predicted to manifest a real warp bubble.
Speaker: 2
01:07:26
It’s not gonna go anywhere. It’s not gonna do anything. But still, that’s significant as a, you know, as a measure of a a paradigm shift in our understanding. So
Speaker: 1
01:07:34
It’s Leonardo da Vinci’s drawing of
Speaker: 2
01:07:37
It it great. That’s a wonderful metaphor. It definitely could be something like that.
Speaker: 1
01:07:40
Right? So Da Vinci was drawing flying things. Yeah. Well, it looks like what you would expect something to look like in Star Trek to generate a warp drive. Right? Yeah. Doesn’t it? Like, you could see it lighting up.
Speaker: 2
01:07:54
Yeah. It has some kind of a humming noise. Right? Makes sounds like a heartbeat or something. Right? So
Speaker: 1
01:07:59
The the idea of using quantum energy is so fascinating because I don’t understand what that means. I don’t understand the whole idea of subatomic particles because it seems so fake, seems so crazy that the universe is made out of things that are essentially working on magic.
Speaker: 1
01:08:18
They appear and disappear. Right. They’re in two places at the same time. They’re both still and moving. Right. They’re in superposition.
Speaker: 2
01:08:25
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:08:25
They’re entangled.
Speaker: 2
01:08:26
Right. In in the grand scheme of things, I would speculate that, as we as we add circles to the physics Venn diagram, we may actually be able to change some of that narrative. Right? So maybe maybe some of and so this gets into you know, now we’re getting into, like, the philosophical history of physics and some of the debates that have gone on for for the better part of a century.
Speaker: 2
01:08:50
But, you know, may maybe as we continue to move forward and we add more circles to the the physics Venn diagram, you know, it’ll it’ll instead of having this this, this narrative or this framework where we talk about probabilities and chances and entanglement and the cat is alive and the cat is dead, Right?
Speaker: 2
01:09:09
Maybe there is a a deeper level of understanding that we have yet to uncover, right, beyond what we know in quantum mechanics today, that helps us understand things at a more fundamental level. There is a a subquantum dynamics, right, that explains the the randomness, the stochasticity that we sai, and there’ll be a much more satisfactory explanation for things where it’s not like this.
Speaker: 2
01:09:34
I Ai would almost play back some of what you just said has if you think about it, it actually has kind of a bit of a metaphysical kinda sound to it, if you will. Right? You know, the collapse of the wave function. Well, what does that really even mean? Right?
Speaker: 2
01:09:46
Sai, maybe, as we continue to move forward and we add we we get deeper understandings, we’ll have, answers that are much more compelling and logical in in some in some way we don’t currently understand yet.
Speaker: 1
01:09:59
Well, when you ai to explain to people the the double slit experiment, try to explain that to people, the waves and particles, like, what are you even saying?
Speaker: 2
01:10:09
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you have one slit, you get a, you know, a nice Gaussian distribution around the center point, then you open up two slits, and you’ve got this weird interference pattern. Right? It’s like
Speaker: 1
01:10:18
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:10:18
And this and that’s the whole matter is both a particle and a wave. Right? That’s how you kinda see that, if you will. But how do you explain that? And sai, actually, there are, you know, thought processes that people have to explain that type of stuff in in some of the the stuff that’s out in the literature today.
Speaker: 2
01:10:33
Bohmian trajectories is specifically one of the things. But
Speaker: 1
01:10:37
What it’s Ai it it’s almost frustrating because I know we’re gonna crack it one day. You know? It’s ai, ram, I wish I was born in 2090. You know what I mean? Like, they probably would already nail.
Speaker: 2
01:10:46
Not really. I really
Speaker: 1
01:10:47
like being born right here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love being alive right now because it’s so it’s such a fun time where, these technological innovations are they’re happen they’re compounding and they’re building on each other in such a very in incredible way that this kind of experiment is actually possible, and now you can actually prove, oh, we we have a theoretical work bubble.
Speaker: 2
01:11:08
Mhmm. Let me
Speaker: 1
01:11:08
show you how we can make
Speaker: 2
01:11:09
it. Right. Right. And so so some of the stuff that, we’re focused on. Right? So, you know, I I spent, twenty years at NASA, and then I left NASA at the end of twenty nineteen to go, help stand up a nonprofit limitless space institute where we did some of the work that we just showed you.
Speaker: 2
01:11:24
Right? And that’s where we were doing some of the initial work for DARPA on the the little nanostructures that we’re working on. And so we got we got a lot further with that work than we thought we were going to and so created a commercial company called Casimir where we’re trying to commercialize our power generating nanotechnology.
Speaker: 2
01:11:42
And so in in some ways, it’s like the the interesting aspect of this story is in the process of us trying to pursue this romantic vision of the idea of a space warp, we, you know, we may have stumbled into this, power generating nanotechnology that could be useful here and now in a lot of ways, right, ranging from, you know, powering a a the Fitbit on your wrist or tire pressure monitor system in your car.
Speaker: 2
01:12:10
Maybe one day as we continue to grow the capability, it’ll do a lot more than that. But, you know, in the process of chasing the romantic dream, we’ve stumbled across some technology that might be useful in the here and now. Right? And so when you ask what might be in the rings around that that, spaceship, the Ai Enterprise, maybe those could be long standing descendants from some of the stuff we’re working on, in the in the chips that we’re making in the lab today.
Speaker: 1
01:12:37
Essentially, like the people who put the foundation for the Saloni Peter’s Basilica down Yeah. They’re not gonna see
Speaker: 2
01:12:42
any Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 3
01:12:42
Yeah. Yeah. Completed project. Right. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:12:45
And this is just how it goes with everything that’s really extraordinary like that.
Speaker: 3
01:12:48
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:12:48
Right. It it it’s it’s neat to think it’s neat to think the speed at which innovation occurs. Right? You know? I I I think you’ve had Elon Musk on this show a few times, and it’s neat to see what he’s been able to accomplish, with with SpaceX. I actually I met him in, 02/2003. Law is very the very beginning of his journey. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:13:10
I was, I was on a planning committee for a conference, American Astronomical Ai, and we were doing a a a conference in Houston with a focus on, a commercial space flight. So this is at the the dawn of the idea. At the time, I was working at Lockheed Arya, And so we had Elon Musk come in and talk to us about this crazy ai, SpaceX, that he had. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:13:33
And so, Lockheed Arya, corporate contacted me and asked me, hey. We know you’re gonna be interfacing with this ai. Guy. And so we want you to write up a profile on him after the conference and tell us what you think. And so I, you know, went to the conference and got a chance to watch a number of people come in and talk about great ai, and Elon came and gave his talk and and so forth.
Speaker: 2
01:13:56
And after the conference was over, I wrote up a a profile and submitted it to Lockheed corporate, and I said, you know, I I think this guy is gonna do everything he said he’s gonna do. I think Lockheed Martin should consider buying his company at some point in time. And so fortunately, they didn’t. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:14:13
Because I think if they did, they would have, like, ruined the magic, if you will. Right? So
Speaker: 1
01:14:17
Yeah. You need it in his control. He’s got some pretty bizarre ideas that, you know, just watching them catch that rocket, you’re like, what?
Speaker: 2
01:14:27
That’s nuts. That is absolutely nuts. Nuts. Right? My brain looks at that and goes,
Speaker: 1
01:14:32
no. Right. It looks like I mean, that’s why the cooks in the Internet think it’s fake.
Speaker: 2
01:14:37
Because it almost looks fake.
Speaker: 1
01:14:38
Ai, how it’s such a leap above anything that’s ever been done before.
Speaker: 2
01:14:42
Yeah. Yeah. Could you imagine the design meeting? Right. Right. And I’m sure it was probably Elon that said that said this. Yeah. I wanna I wanna catch a 20 story building. Yeah. I can see all the engineers are is he serious? Right.
Speaker: 1
01:14:55
Exactly. Because everybody thought they just had to deteriorate and fall to Earth. Yeah. Yeah. Ai. They run out of sai.
Speaker: 2
01:15:01
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:15:01
You know, when you’re shooting the rocket up in ai and then you you plan it so they fall into the ocean, like, okay.
Speaker: 2
01:15:06
Yeah. Yeah. Ai Sai do think that, I I don’t know if you’ve ever met Gwen Shotwell. I think Gwen Shotwell is kinda like his secret weapon.
Speaker: 1
01:15:14
Oh.
Speaker: 2
01:15:14
Right? So in in, you know, Elon Musk strikes me as one of those guys that’s like an an idea generator. All this great stuff’s coming out, at the speed of light, if you will, and he’s coming up with all these different ideas. But you gotta have somebody who can who can, you know, take all that chaos and pull out the important tidbits and then put them into action, if you will.
Speaker: 2
01:15:34
And so I think Gwen is kind of his secret weapon. She helps take all of that chaos and then starts to put it into, you know, actionable steps, if you will, to help, SpaceX makes those progress.
Speaker: 1
01:15:45
The case.
Speaker: 2
01:15:46
She rules. Oh oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:15:48
Yeah. Just imagine as technology increases, if you have someone with that sort of an innovative mind and someone like Gwen who can put it together as all these new ideas come to fruition, you could imagine where we’re gonna be with this stuff. Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:16:04
Right. Absolutely. Well, and and and and just to ai put that in context. Right? In my mind, SpaceX is an example of mastering the art of getting to space. Mhmm. Right? SpaceX is conquering that that climbing against the gravity well as opposed to moving through speak. That there’s therein lies a great opportunity to kinda re ai that that that perennial difference, the the challenge between the two. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:16:27
So
Speaker: 1
01:16:28
Right. Moving through space.
Speaker: 2
01:16:29
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:16:29
And then the idea of some sort of a space station somewhere. Right. Not just circling the earth, but out in the cosmos. Mhmm. Like, there’s there’s so many different ways they can take this stuff and the idea of eventually colonizing other planets Mhmm. Which is always, like, people go, okay.
Speaker: 1
01:16:48
Well, that’s that’s what we’re probably going to try to do. Wouldn’t another civilization do that to us? Mhmm. And that’s where you get into the weird talk
Speaker: 2
01:16:55
Yeah. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:16:55
Ai or not it’s actually happening. Right.
Speaker: 2
01:16:57
Ai Sai guess it gets into the whole, you know, if somebody has the ability to come here Mhmm. Ai, it’s almost like Sai would rather be the one that was technically advanced and able to go somewhere else rather than have them come here because it’s
Speaker: 1
01:17:09
Oh, yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:17:09
Ai you if you look at well, if you look at history that never that hasn’t ever gone well for the
Speaker: 1
01:17:14
Not one time.
Speaker: 2
01:17:15
For the for the organization you know, for the the tribes that get visited, it just never tends to go well for me. So it’s I’m ai, I’d rather be the one doing the visiting than Exactly.
Speaker: 1
01:17:24
Ai? So And then imagine the exotic viruses.
Speaker: 2
01:17:27
Oh, yeah. Right. Oh, that’s a good point. It it always makes you think, you know, Star Trek, they just go they beam down to the planet. No problem.
Speaker: 1
01:17:34
They’re there. Yeah. Right? It’s just like They breathe air, same atmosphere, same pressure,
Speaker: 2
01:17:39
same gravity. It’s ai, you know, I keep waiting for the episode where somebody starts starts bleeding from their eyes. Right? Explodes the whole day. The guy with the red shirt, you know, right away.
Speaker: 1
01:17:49
Right? That ai that guy’s gone. Right? Yeah. Ai mean, you have to take a chance. But, you know, when you think of what’s currently available today, in terms of research that people have done on propulsion systems, When when people speculate that there’s some sort of a black ops program that the government’s been running secretly, and this is what a lot of these drones are that people are seeing, and this is what a lot of, like, the Tic Tac stuff, that it’s probably our stuff, which is why it’s off military basis.
Speaker: 1
01:18:22
Given your understanding of the current state of science, do you think that’s even possible?
Speaker: 2
01:18:27
Yeah. No. Well, it’s hard to imagine that being possible. Right? Just in in terms of because I my entire professional experience has been about wrestling with, you know, how do we how do we conquer this time distance problem? And so I know all too well all the shortcomings. I know where we are for the most part today, where we’re lacking. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:18:55
And so I I just I don’t know that there is, an organization that has, things that could potentially operate in the ways that we like the the Tic Tacs. Right. Sai I don’t know that there is a a a black ops that actually has that capability.
Speaker: 1
01:19:12
What I’m what I’m ai asking though is is it even conceivable that there could be a program where you could get the brightest minds who are working on this stuff to make advancements that are far beyond anything that conventional wisdom ai.
Speaker: 2
01:19:28
Yeah. Now now I’m with you. I was on a different frequency. Thank you. Yeah. You know, if if we had, if we had some ai of kit, right, that, is not from here, however we got it, right, and people will spend some time studying it, you know, maybe they could figure it out. But that that also gets into, you know, a a little bit of a a a logic conundrum. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:19:49
Because I think you talked about going back to the fourteen hundreds and holding up an iPhone. Right? If you if you handed something like this to, you know, Isaac Newton Right. He would have no idea No idea. What to make of this. Right. Ai?
Speaker: 2
01:20:07
So he might figure out the interface. Right? The Apple’s done a good job of making this thing, pretty user friendly. But, I mean, how could even even if he looked at it with, like, a a glass that allowed him to sai, maybe start to make out the pixels Right. He he doesn’t have the benefit of any of the math and physics and so forth. So the it’s possible. Mhmm. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:20:26
But those are the things that in in gaming situations in my head, what might that look like? Well, it’s like, wow. This might be really hard to figure that out. But it’d be awesome if somebody had figured that out if that if that was in the realm of possibility. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:20:39
So Speaking for the people that believe that they have recovered these Mhmm. These vehicles from somewhere else, One of the things that one of the ways they describe them that’s really ai bizarre is they describe them as donations.
Speaker: 2
01:20:54
I’ve heard that word. If you were
Speaker: 1
01:20:56
going to try to get someone to figure out how to construct their own automobile, you wouldn’t give them a 2025 Corvette z r one Mhmm. Which you’d give them as a model t.
Speaker: 2
01:21:08
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:21:09
You’d give them some simple combustion engine, a carburetor that you could go, okay. Like someone who knows how to make a locomotive, they could look at that and go, okay, I see what they’re doing. Oh, wow. Alright. So this thing, the combustion Mhmm. And then the gases spin around and then it creates energy and then it spins these wheels, then this thing has different gears Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:21:29
And that okay, that goes to the back wheels. Ai. I think we could do this. Mhmm. But it you know, if you gave them some electric Tesla, you know, like a new Model sai Plaid, they’d go, what the fuck is this?
Speaker: 2
01:21:40
Porsche nine eleven.
Speaker: 1
01:21:40
Yeah. Exactly. They would go, what is this? Well, especially electric. Right. Electric vehicles. They go, this is bananas. Like, this thing goes zero to 60 in one point nine seconds. Yeah. That’s amazing. Car.
Speaker: 2
01:21:50
That’s amazing, isn’t it?
Speaker: 1
01:21:51
It it does feel have you ever been in electric Tesla, ai, the Model s Plaid? It feels like a spaceship. Like, it feels like you’re not in this time period.
Speaker: 3
01:21:58
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:21:59
You’re
Speaker: 1
01:21:59
in something in the future. So if they gave us something to back engineer, they would most likely give us a Model t.
Speaker: 2
01:22:05
Yeah. Actually, that’s sai Ai I had never thought about it that way.
Speaker: 1
01:22:08
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:22:08
Ai? That’s the
Speaker: 1
01:22:09
start with the best shit we have. Right.
Speaker: 2
01:22:11
You know
Speaker: 1
01:22:11
what I mean? Like, give these dummies a a Jeep from the fifties. Right. Right.
Speaker: 2
01:22:16
You know what
Speaker: 1
01:22:16
I mean?
Speaker: 2
01:22:16
Sai Willys. Right? Carpenter. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:22:18
Yeah. Figure it out.
Speaker: 2
01:22:19
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:22:19
Yeah. Yeah. Look at all the stuff. You can work on it. Like, if you open up the hood of one of those things, you know, an old Jeep, you go, oh, I see where everything is. Here’s the spark plugs.
Speaker: 2
01:22:26
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:22:26
You know, here’s the distributor cap. I get it.
Speaker: 2
01:22:29
Yeah. Well, I I guess, you know, if if that were the case, ai I I guess you could I I could follow you down that thought process if you will.
Speaker: 1
01:22:37
So then could you imagine I mean, this is just I’m just asking you ai I know you understand science and you understand engineering.
Speaker: 0
01:22:43
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:22:44
Is it possible that there could have been some program that’s been going on in complete total secrecy shielded from Congress, shielded from the higher levels of government on the most need to know basis possible with our our current security systems that they could have some kind of a program that’s working on this stuff.
Speaker: 2
01:23:05
You know, I I I certainly couldn’t rule that out. Right? But, some things I think about when I think about that problem. Let’s talk about the, you know, like the f one seventeen stealth fighter. Right? There was a a program that was unclassified, I think it was in the late seventies, maybe early eighties, called Have Blue.
Speaker: 2
01:23:26
And so that’s when they were first starting to explore the idea of having an aircraft, that could be extremely stealthy. And so, it was unclassified for a good amount of time until they put the first test shape onto a radar stand out in California in the desert or whatever the case may be.
Speaker: 2
01:23:47
And then they turn on the radars, and they’re like, well, something’s wrong because we’re not seeing anything. Right? And then a bird landed on the the prototype, and they saw the bird. And so when that happened, the whole the whole program went black. Right? It became classified.
Speaker: 2
01:24:02
Before then, it was it was not ai, then it was classified. But it it it, of course, came out in the nineties with Gulf War one. Right? I think we we saw some, some manifestations of this. And so there is a program that’s extremely, classified for the obvious reasons, but it still came out. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:24:21
And then I also think about you know, I I worked at NASA. Right? And so you have the worked at NASA for twenty years and you get the full spectrum of of people serving different roles in a facility. And so you’re always gonna have people that, you know, take out the garbage and do other different things like that.
Speaker: 2
01:24:38
And so, you know, if if you’ve got something that has implications like that, I mean, it’d be it’s hard. It could happen, but that that’s the thing I struggle with is is that’s you know, there’s a lot of different moving parts to try and keep that big of a secret. I mean, maybe it could happen. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:24:55
So
Speaker: 1
01:24:55
Well, if I was running things and that was going on, I would talk to you. And it’s ai, look at this guy. He seems to be on this pathway that we arya, currently exploring. I would
Speaker: 2
01:25:09
I’d sana bring somebody in. And Well, if somebody if somebody’s got a vatsal, ai can help me figure out to go do something. Give me a call. Right? I’d love that. And I know I’m gonna get all kinds of emails as a result of saying that. Right? So Kooks. I already get that now. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:25:24
You’re gonna get the kooks. But, you know, the the question Ai guess I’m asking is, are there even experts in physics and engineering that are out there that could be quarantined, that could be taken away from everyone else and put on these projects, and could they achieve meaningful results given that kind of compartmentalized science?
Speaker: 2
01:25:48
Right. Maybe maybe the thing that that we could we could throw into the sandbox on this discussion is, the Manhattan Project. Maybe there’s a better example of something, where they were working on something that was extremely important, for humanity, and they were able to keep a lot of those secrets for, quite some time.
Speaker: 2
01:26:06
Sai, yep, maybe that’s that’s how you would have to run something like that, I guess. I don’t know.
Speaker: 1
01:26:11
But would you have the expertise? Is is are there I mean, are we aware of who all of the experts are? Is it possible that the government could have had access to brilliant minds that are on this sort of path ai you you are, gotten them, move them into these projects, and kept it all hush-hush.
Speaker: 1
01:26:32
Is that even
Speaker: 2
01:26:33
Certainly, the the so the government, government also has an organization called the Jasons, right, where they have a lot of, extremely smart smart folks from academia. And they come in, typically, I think it’s like a summer assignment, if you will. And so they they they they band together in the summer to go work on a series of problems that folks might have.
Speaker: 2
01:26:51
And so they kinda it’s what you’re asking me kinda makes me think about that kind of a mechanism where you have access to the best and the brightest across the entire spectrum of of US academia, and you pull them together and make them seal team six on whatever particular problem that you’ve got.
Speaker: 2
01:27:08
But you could run into a problem where, you know, they ai, they might look at a problem and only, look at it in the context of what we know. Right? You know, quantum mechanics and general relativity, and they don’t wanna think about new things that could potentially be brought to bear.
Speaker: 2
01:27:22
So there could be some some flies in the ointment with that thought process. But, that that in some ways, that does kind of exist in what we know is the Jason’s. Right? So and and they could and they do classified work all the time. Interesting.
Speaker: 1
01:27:37
So the I guess the question is where are the brightest minds in this particular area of innovation? Like, where if I was running the government and I wanted someone to work on some sort of top secret stuff like this, how would I even find the people?
Speaker: 2
01:27:52
That’s a tough question to answer because what what you know, what that you might that so that would so going to taking that question and going into just, like, some specific steps you might take. Right? What what disciplines are relevant? Right? And that’s a difficult question to answer because there’s so much stuff that we that we don’t know.
Speaker: 2
01:28:11
You probably would have to sample from a a number of different disciplines, right, both in general relativity and quantum mechanics, with some hope that maybe you’ve got the right sprinkling of ingredients to bring to bear, to that. And then there there there is a history of, I think, some folks in academia that actually like to think about advanced power and propulsion that are also just primarily physicists in a in in in their day to day capacity.
Speaker: 2
01:28:37
Ai? You know, Hal, Putoff, although he’s got a lot of meh and varied interests, he’s a he’s a great physicist. He’s published a lot of great papers in the literature just thinking about physics. Right? He’s got some stuff he’s looked at called the polarizable vacuum.
Speaker: 2
01:28:51
And so, you know, in my my my drawer of of preferred papers, I have a number of papers in there that are from Hal’s work on the polarizable vacuum because I find that interesting and and fascinating. And so there may be some things out there that are adjacent to the concept where you could try and pull some of that together, I guess.
Speaker: 1
01:29:07
That that’s a fascinating thing for you to say because Hal believes they have them,
Speaker: 2
01:29:11
and
Speaker: 1
01:29:12
he believes that we have 10 of them.
Speaker: 2
01:29:13
Oh, yes. I know that. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:29:14
Yeah. Which is just so nuts.
Speaker: 2
01:29:16
And then,
Speaker: 1
01:29:16
you know, he’s a little agnostic on the Bob Lazar story.
Speaker: 2
01:29:19
Mhmm. But
Speaker: 1
01:29:20
the Bob Lazar story, which I’m sure you’re aware of Mhmm. Is essentially what we’re talking about. Like, you would bring in some out of the box thinkers. And if you found some wildly intelligent young scientist who put a rocket engine in the back of a Honda Mhmm. Which is what he did.
Speaker: 1
01:29:40
You would go, what is that crazy fucker up to? Like, let’s have him look at it. What’s it hurt? Right. The guy at Rocketdyne say he’s a wizard. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:29:47
You know, bring him out there. Or the guys that wherever he was, he wasn’t at Rocketdyne. He was at, Los Alamos. The guys at Los Alamos said he’s a wizard. So let’s bring him out here. Let’s see what’s going on.
Speaker: 2
01:29:57
Yeah. His his his story is I’m not too familiar with it. Right? Ai don’t think it was
Speaker: 1
01:30:01
It’s the nuddiest story of all time. And, he supposedly well, they denied that he ever worked at Los Alamos, but then they found him on an employee, log. And, not only that, the he knew the outline of the place. He knew the security people. George Knapp took him on a tour of it, and he knew everybody.
Speaker: 1
01:30:19
He knew the people that worked there. He knew how to get around. Like, he clearly worked there. So that’s interesting that they ai to deny that he ever worked there. And then from there, he gets this job where he is flown out to the desert to Arya 51 Ai 4.
Speaker: 2
01:30:34
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:30:34
And this is allegedly. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:30:36
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:30:36
During this time, he can’t even tell his wife what he’s doing. So his wife thinks he’s going having affairs. He’s gotta leave and fly away at 11PM at night. Like, right, but you can’t tell me where you’re going? You wanna work? Right.
Speaker: 2
01:30:48
Yeah. You’re working late again?
Speaker: 1
01:30:49
The wife starts having an affair. And because of his
Speaker: 2
01:30:52
clean It sounds like a movie.
Speaker: 1
01:30:54
Right? It sounds like a movie, which is one of the beautiful things about reality Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that reality seems so fake that sometimes sometimes actual
Speaker: 2
01:31:03
true stories
Speaker: 1
01:31:03
Right. Are bizarrely fictional.
Speaker: 2
01:31:05
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:31:06
Right. So he, his wife starts having an affair. Because of his clearance, he cannot be working on these things if he could be under extreme emotional duress.
Speaker: 0
01:31:15
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:31:15
So they fire him. They tell him he can’t they don’t give him any explanation. They don’t tell him his wife cheating on him. He starts taking people out to the desert, explain to them, you you have to see what we’re working on. They fly this thing on certain nights and they do these test flights around the base. It’s nuts. So he takes these people into this arya. They see it.
Speaker: 1
01:31:33
They get arrested. When he gets arrested, he gets caught there. He explains what he was doing. He says, okay. I’ve got to go public or they’re gonna kill me.
Speaker: 1
01:31:41
So he goes public with George Knapp. Initially, they hide his face and then he says, you know what? Fuck that. Let’s just film me. Let me tell you everything.
Speaker: 1
01:31:48
Yeah. He goes over the diagram of this device Yeah. And he calls it the sport model and it looks like that. That thing that we have
Speaker: 2
01:31:56
Oh, yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:31:56
Right there.
Speaker: 2
01:31:57
Yeah. It’s almost like a hubcap. Right? But it’s Exactly.
Speaker: 1
01:31:59
That’s a copy of it.
Speaker: 2
01:32:00
Okay.
Speaker: 1
01:32:00
In the middle of that thing is some sort of a generator that he said works on this unknown element, this element one fifteen.
Speaker: 2
01:32:09
Oh, some of this is coming back to me. I think I’ve seen some stuff over the years.
Speaker: 1
01:32:13
Yes.
Speaker: 2
01:32:13
Yeah. Some of it’s coming back to me now.
Speaker: 1
01:32:15
And, essentially, the way he describes it traveling and, again, this is in the nineteen eighties. The way he describes it traveling is exactly the way you describe that sort of warp drive changing space and time around it. And that you would point that thing where you wanted to go and it would just
Speaker: 2
01:32:35
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That it all it all sounds very surreal. Right? Oh, yeah. There’s there’s another there’s another, story. Again, as I as I said, I have a number of friends that are keenly interested in this, and so I’ve been exposed to some of the different things. And that to me, the Tic Tac account is interesting because it’s got a lot of rigorous data, if you will, that helps you go, well, I I can’t explain that.
Speaker: 2
01:32:59
I can’t explain that. I can’t explain that. There is another, accounting that I just put in the category. My brain doesn’t even know what to make of it, and it’s the concept of Rendlesham Forest. I don’t know if that if that rings a bell.
Speaker: 2
01:33:12
There’s some over in The UK where there’s a base over there and some airmen came across some very weird I can’t even begin to describe. I’m not sure if I
Speaker: 1
01:33:20
know this one.
Speaker: 2
01:33:21
It’s yeah. It’s pretty bizarre. I I I don’t I don’t know it well enough to unpack it today, other than to say it’s it’s so bizarre that when you listen to the accounts that were recorded, right, it doesn’t make any sense. It’s it’s ai you know, if you think about, if you if you watch an octopus in a in a a an aquarium, right, and the octopus is doing something, you can sometimes understand what their motivation is.
Speaker: 2
01:33:51
There’s ai a a a cross species ability to it’s like communication but without words. Right? You know, that octopus wants to go eat that little, crab or what whatever the case may be. And so our our chemical computers, even though they’re different, we can we can look at their behavior, and we can go, alright.
Speaker: 2
01:34:10
I think I understand what’s what that octopus might be wanting to do today arya a shark or a dog or a porpoise. But when you hear what happened in that Rendlesham Forest thing, it it breaks all of my guessing machine. And I I it’s like, what is the story? It’s some they the, a colonel and some airmen reported some weird stuff that was going on in Rendlesham Forest. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:34:35
And, they went out and tried to investigate it, and that they saw some, again, I’m doing such a terrible job of summarizing it because I don’t really know the lore very well. But
Speaker: 1
01:34:45
Here it is right here.
Speaker: 2
01:34:46
Everything they saw was very bizarre and and crazy looking. We
Speaker: 1
01:34:49
could read it. Right? It says forty years ago, remote force in Suffolk was the scene of one of the most famous reported UFO sightings in history. So just what did happen, and will we ever know for sure? Victor Thurn Kettle was out chopping wood one morning in Rendlesham Forest in late December nineteen eighty when a car drew up.
Speaker: 1
01:35:06
Out stepped two men, aged about 30, dressed in suits. Good morning. Do you mind if we ask you some questions? Asked one in a well spoken English accent. Earlier on December, United States Air Force security personnel stationed near at, stationed at nearby Ram Woodbridge had reported seeing strange lights in the surrounding forest.
Speaker: 1
01:35:26
Forestry worker, mister Thurncuttle, an, unannounced and unidentified visitors asked if he had been out the previous night. I said no. He recalls, they said, did you leave the house at all? Did you see anything? I said, what?
Speaker: 1
01:35:42
They said, oh, there’s a report of some red lights in the forest. We’re just checking. And the two men, very politely but firmly, asked me probably about 20 questions. I thought they were journalists. They suddenly said, oh, well, fair enough. There’s probably nothing in it and left.
Speaker: 1
01:35:56
So I bought the papers every day for the next few days to find out what was going on sana, of course, there was nothing. Three years later, however, sightings made the News of the World front page story, proclaimed UFO lands in Suffolk, and it’s and that’s official. The story was based on a memo from RAF Woodbridge deputy base commander, lieutenant colonel Charles Halt, to the Ministry of Defense.
Speaker: 1
01:36:21
It was released by the US government ai as an encounter with an apparent UFO in the forest. Since then, the sightings have been the source of much debate and speculation among UFO enthusiasts on the subject of numerous books, articles, and TV programs. In March, a documentary concluded the sightings had achieved legend status like the Loch Ness or King Arthur.
Speaker: 1
01:36:41
The the forest even have its has its own official UFO trail complete with a life sai replica, go back up, of the flying saucer. And this is the replica. It’s like the hamza thing on it, that hand thing. Bizarre. Thirne Kettle, UK authorities have said they didn’t learn about the incident. Okay. What what is the story though?
Speaker: 1
01:37:02
Let’s get to, like, what is the story? Scroll down more. What does it say?
Speaker: 2
01:37:06
Yeah. And that that gets into the stuff that I it doesn’t make sense in terms of what they ai the UFO doing. It’s it’s just very peculiar. Right? So Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:37:17
They got there. My heart absolutely plummeted. There it was nothing. It’s absolutely normal. Glade the forest with three rabbit scrapes. They’re all carefully marked. It happened to be roughly a triangle. K. What else does it say? What is the sighting? Burn marks on trees, but what’s the sighting?
Speaker: 0
01:37:34
I can show you what the UFO looked ai, but
Speaker: 2
01:37:36
they Okay.
Speaker: 0
01:37:36
I mean, Sure.
Speaker: 1
01:37:38
That’s what they said it looked like? Woah. And it had those markings on it?
Speaker: 0
01:37:44
I Googled it. My Google search said that Crush brought it up when he was on here, but I couldn’t find, like, even clips about it.
Speaker: 2
01:37:50
So I
Speaker: 0
01:37:51
don’t know that we went that deep into it.
Speaker: 1
01:37:52
How bizarre is it that it has that symbol? What is that that’s an ancient Hindu symbol. Correct? That Hamza symbol?
Speaker: 4
01:37:58
I don’t know.
Speaker: 1
01:37:59
These are different symbols. Oh, they’re different. Yeah. That looks very weird. Sai what about this one stands out to you?
Speaker: 2
01:38:10
I put this one in the category of Ai just I don’t understand if it’s a if it’s a real account. Right? I mean, so the I think when you have a a lieutenant colonel that’s reporting something as factual, I tend not to just immediately dismiss it. Right. But what the what the and it’s not just him. It’s several people around him. What they described, right, doesn’t make sense to me. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:38:32
You know, in terms of the David Faber talking about the Tic Tac, I can kinda, you know, that that’s not totally alien to me. I could oh, well, they’re it’s trying to maneuver with the aircraft and it’s maneuvering to their cap or whatever the case may be. And I I can kinda connect the dots with that. But the Rendleson Forest thing, it doesn’t make any sense to me.
Speaker: 2
01:38:51
It doesn’t
Speaker: 1
01:38:51
about it doesn’t make any sense?
Speaker: 2
01:38:54
The the what they saw, why it was doing what it was doing, they just
Speaker: 1
01:38:57
What was it doing?
Speaker: 2
01:38:57
It just was out in the woods. It was out in the woods, you know, with blinky lights and doing weird stuff and, like
Speaker: 1
01:39:05
what? Why is that weirder than the Tic Tac to you?
Speaker: 2
01:39:07
I I don’t Ai I don’t know. So this is a gut thing, right, in terms of ai gut’s telling me I don’t make I don’t understand this. This doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t know how to explain it any better than that. So
Speaker: 1
01:39:18
But Ai I if it’s just an object that’s in the wood, blinking lights, and looks like it’s ai, why I just don’t understand why that’s weirder than
Speaker: 2
01:39:26
Ai think it I think they also described it had, like, melty bits or something like that that were, like, dripping off of it and so forth, and I just that what it sounds so completely surreal. I think maybe what I’m what I’m unconsciously trying to do is I’m trying to, you know, map how might I map, you know, math and physics to what it is that they’re describing to meh?
Speaker: 2
01:39:47
And I just Sure.
Speaker: 1
01:39:48
Jimmy, is this the one where they they found debris at the scene? Did someone someone brought this up? Was it Jacques Vallee that brought this up?
Speaker: 0
01:39:57
Here it’s yeah. Piece of debris is seen burning up as a fireball over England. Serviceman thought it was a downed craft. Haltz meh says glowing object, metallic in appearance, colored lights.
Speaker: 1
01:40:08
Attempt to approach the object, it appeared to move through the trees, and the animals on a nearby farm went into a frenzy. One of the servicemen, sergeant Jim meh Penniston, later claimed to have encountered a craft of unknown origin while in the forest, although there was no published mention of this at the ai, and there is no corroboration
Speaker: 0
01:40:28
from
Speaker: 2
01:40:30
other witnesses. Yeah. So there’s not there’s there’s no matter how far you dig, there’s not gonna be very much satisfactory resolution of the mystery, if you will. It’s just a a a a bonkers kind of story.
Speaker: 1
01:40:46
This one stand out to you more than, like, say, Roswell. Because Roswell, to me, is one of the most bizarre ones. When you look at the front page of the Ross was it the Roswell daily record, I believe? Mhmm. That has this story saying that the government has recovered a flying saucer
Speaker: 2
01:41:02
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:41:03
And that a crashed flying saucer was found. And, you know, the story is that they grabbed the wreckage and flew it out the right Patterson Air Air Force Base and two separate planes in case one of them crashed and Truman met them there. Like
Speaker: 2
01:41:16
Maybe in that case, it’s, you know, this it’s a potentially a purported spaceship and it was around military bases. Mhmm. You know, I I don’t know. It’s just the weirder Again again, we’re getting into the fact Ai Oh, yeah. I I don’t have a lot of depth in some of these areas. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:41:34
So
Speaker: 1
01:41:34
I understand. But it’s just the weirdest, aspect of this whole crashed retrieval program, the alleged crash crash retrieval program. Ai, if it has occurred and it really does go back to the nineteen forties, like, how did you guys hide this? Like, how how do you kept this secret so long? Is that even conceivably possible?
Speaker: 2
01:41:55
That that’s one of the things I wonder about. There’s a book I was, recommended to read called Blind Man’s Bluff. And, it’s a book about deeply classified projects, connected to the navy. Right? They were I think the end effect of what they were trying to achieve as part of what’s detailed in this book is, you you remember hearing about deep sea rescue vehicles.
Speaker: 2
01:42:21
Right? So deep sea rescue vehicles, basically, that was a cover for, some submarines that the navy was using to put listening systems on communication cables that were at the bottom of some of the bodies of water, that, I think the Soviet Union is using at the time. And so, the this, this book kinda details a number of programs that went through and developed kit and hardware to go through and accomplish these different tasks.
Speaker: 2
01:42:51
And so it’s neat to kinda, you know, see how black programs like that unfold. I don’t know how that book got published, but, it’s a it’s a fascinating book. But then that speaks to what you’re wrestling with. Right? How do you have something that’s so classified that doesn’t leak? Right?
Speaker: 2
01:43:07
Because all the other data that we see from other programs, they’re you can you can keep a secret for a little while, but you can’t keep it for that long. Right? At least that’s when I look at these other things, that’s what comes to my mind. Right? Now that doesn’t mean I’m right.
Speaker: 2
01:43:22
There could definitely be programs that are out there, right, that are maybe they figured out how to get around that. But when you look at some of the most classified military things that are out there, they they usually have a lifetime associated with it.
Speaker: 1
01:43:36
Maybe it’s just one of those things the government’s really good at. Like, the government’s really bad at a lot of things, but maybe they’re really good at that. It’s just that one ai they’ve got it down.
Speaker: 2
01:43:43
Right. Right. Right. Or at least there’s a small section of the ai that’s really good at that. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:43:47
Well, Hal’s speculation, you know, when when Hal says that he’s pretty sure that there’s 10 of them, that that gives me pause. Mhmm. Because that that’s a very serious person.
Speaker: 2
01:43:56
Well, yeah. He’s a very discriminating individual. Ai? He likes to, he likes to question everything. And even though he he’s thought about some very interesting things over the span of his career, right, he does bring a little bit of that, squinty eyed physicist to some of the different things.
Speaker: 2
01:44:10
And so that gives you some measure of comfort that even though he’s thought about some wide ranging things, he’s bringing a little bit of that, skepticism to whatever he’s been confronted with.
Speaker: 1
01:44:20
Also, as crazy as what he says is Mhmm. There’s some things that he won’t talk about. Mhmm. Which ai okay. What is that? Like, if you’re telling me there’s 10 ram UFOs of non human intelligence, and then there’s stuff you can’t tell me Right. That makes me just go, what, like, what what have you seen, Hal? Stop bullshit. You’re 88 years old. Let’s go. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:44:42
Yeah. Yeah. Right. You’re on the clock, bud.
Speaker: 1
01:44:43
You’re on the clock. Spill the beans, buddy.
Speaker: 2
01:44:45
Right. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:44:45
Come on. If anybody does, please. But Ai guess, if you did spill the beans, my goodness, you would no no longer have access to any of that stuff and you’d probably be in trouble. You know, they’re probably immediately meh audited. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:44:57
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You’d you’d have a lot of special things that would happen.
Speaker: 0
01:45:01
Ai lot
Speaker: 1
01:45:01
of bad things would go your way.
Speaker: 2
01:45:03
I would imagine.
Speaker: 1
01:45:03
Yeah. Yeah. Because you’re what what he describes that put it in ai in perspective to meh said you have to understand that one of the things that would happen is there would be real problems because you’d have to figure out how this stuff was funded. So this is funded by misallocation of finances, so you ai to Congress. So these are crimes. These are crimes that put people in prison for life.
Speaker: 1
01:45:24
And then on top of that
Speaker: 2
01:45:25
But, by the way, that goes back to that book I was telling you about, Blind Man’s Bluff, because it talks about the amount of money that went into that program. That was hundreds of millions of dollars. Right. Right? And it’s interesting. That gives you, like, ai a little bit of a window in of insight into how the black, classified world moves stuff around. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:45:44
Sai
Speaker: 1
01:45:44
And then you also have this national security problem. Because what Hal is saying is that we’re not the only ones that have these things and that there’s essentially a mad race to try to back engineer these things and to successfully complete.
Speaker: 0
01:45:57
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:45:57
And this was the real fear, like, when people are seeing the New Jersey drones amongst conspiracy theorists.
Speaker: 2
01:46:02
Sai I
Speaker: 1
01:46:02
was like, oh
Speaker: 2
01:46:03
my god.
Speaker: 1
01:46:03
What if China’s already nailed it? Right. And they’re buzzing us.
Speaker: 2
01:46:06
I I I gotta think Ai gotta think when you when you look at any of the counts of these things, the the the important things to maybe help categorize, the nature of of things that they see. If if a if a craft has the ability to manifest extremely fast speak, well, and it I mean, SR 71 does Meh, you know, 3.2.
Speaker: 2
01:46:28
If you’ve got something that has radar track data that shows it’s doing, you know, meh eight or mach 10, that’s interesting. Now we do have hypersonic stuff, so you can’t just automatically say that it’s something exotic. It still could be something that we know might exist out there with some other flags on the side of the vehicle.
Speaker: 2
01:46:46
But then, like you talked about g forces, if it can do ai a a a Tron turn, right, ai 90 degree kinda turn and you got a radar track, that might help you categorize the the nature of the different signals that are out there. Sai, the and to me, that’s why, like, the the the Tic Tac thing has always been something that’s hard for me to just sweep away because of the quality of the data.
Speaker: 2
01:47:08
And some of the stuff they describe, I I can’t imagine other conventional systems that could potentially explain, what they’re seeing. But a lot of the other stuff, I can actually probably piece together in my head. It could’ve been it could be this or it could be that. Ai?
Speaker: 2
01:47:22
You know, they talk about, the the cubes inside of a clear sphere. Mhmm. There are patents in the system for radar corner cubes that are a a cube, a metallic cube inside of a a clear balloon, that gets floated to evaluate radar sensitivity. Right? Sai, what ai look like? It just looks like there’s a a patent in the system. It’s there’s a yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:47:46
So it’s a corner cube, but there’s a patent that has a version of that that’s light enough to go inside of a, some kind of a balloon. Maybe it’s filled with helium or something like that. There you go. That’s the patent. Right? Sai there’s a there’s a patent in the system.
Speaker: 2
01:47:58
And so, you know, I can certainly see maybe if that’s tethered to a boat. Right? They’re just evaluating our, you know, radar systems, if you will. And so Well,
Speaker: 1
01:48:07
that would kind of make sense until you listen to Ryan Graves’ depictions of what these things were doing. They were standing motionless at a 20 knot winds. They’re moving at the same rate speed.
Speaker: 2
01:48:17
Tethered well, if it’s moving, I yeah. I can’t I can’t Ai can’t describe that. But if it’s static, it could be tethered to a boat.
Speaker: 1
01:48:22
Right. But that looks goofy. Like, if you look at what that looked like Jamie, pull that photo off you just sai. Ai, that, I don’t think that’s tricking Uh-huh. Us a spider jet pilot.
Speaker: 2
01:48:31
The one on the left though is, it’s actually a metallic cube inside. Interesting. Yeah. So The one on the left.
Speaker: 1
01:48:37
Is there an image of that? With the metallic cube inside the sphere? It must be the patent. I don’t know. Just a patent. Okay. So it’s theoretical?
Speaker: 2
01:48:43
I don’t
Speaker: 0
01:48:44
want us to know how it works.
Speaker: 1
01:48:45
Right. Of course.
Speaker: 2
01:48:47
So in a lot of cases, I can again, I’m agnostic, and so I bring this this framework to the table. And so only, you know, the the Tic Tac one’s really I think the one that bubbles up in my mind with the highest quality data that I haven’t been able to ai, well, it could be a, b, or c that’s, you know, not sai boring explanation.
Speaker: 1
01:49:06
Can we go back to that blue
Speaker: 2
01:49:07
one on there?
Speaker: 0
01:49:08
Explore. Ai could be some fake AI.
Speaker: 1
01:49:10
Could be nonsense. Ai notes for cube, transmedium vehicle Yeah. It doesn’t sound promulated by order
Speaker: 2
01:49:15
of Sai.
Speaker: 1
01:49:16
Nonsense. So restricted. Come on. It’s restricted.
Speaker: 2
01:49:19
It’s like super important. It says for official use only. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:49:22
The Internet’s gotta be legit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:49:24
I am a I am a French
Speaker: 0
01:49:25
Tic Tac.
Speaker: 2
01:49:26
I am a French model. Right? The other Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:49:28
That’s just to buy stuff.
Speaker: 1
01:49:29
Oh, it’s just to buy stuff. It’s just goofy. It’s just silly. We need to get those get some
Speaker: 2
01:49:33
Tic Tac stuff. You know The
Speaker: 1
01:49:36
lack of sonic boom is one of the things Ai wanna talk about. Yeah. Like, if that thing could move at that kind of a tyler hypersonic speed, there wouldn’t be some sort of a sonic boom.
Speaker: 2
01:49:43
Ai. If if it’s not exactly ai, if it’s if it’s not some ai of laser system that’s creating pixels
Speaker: 0
01:49:50
Right.
Speaker: 2
01:49:50
Right, and it’s some solid thing, if it’s going supersonic, it based on everything we know with aerodynamics, it should have a sonic boom. And if if it doesn’t and it is a a physical thing, then that demands an an explanation. Right? And I I wouldn’t be able to explain that. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:50:06
And so that Right. Those and that’s exactly why something like the the data that comes out of the the Tic Tac thing, I haven’t been able to just pound flat and make go away. Right? It keeps surviving all of my grumpy physicist attacks. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:50:20
So
Speaker: 1
01:50:20
Do Does it frustrate you that you’ve never seen one of these things or have you?
Speaker: 2
01:50:24
So funny story. And beer beer is involved. Uh-oh. How much? A
Speaker: 1
01:50:30
little bit. With Shane Gillis?
Speaker: 2
01:50:32
A little bit. A little bit. So we were down at Kennedy Space Center. And this is this is a cautionary tale to don’t always believe what your eyes sai. Right? Because you you potentially could, you know, lead yourself down the wrong path. So we’re down at Kennedy Space Center.
Speaker: 2
01:50:48
We had put some, docking cameras on, some space station modules and spent a lot of you know, number of days working long hours wearing those uncomfortable bunny suits and so forth. And so finished all this stuff, wanted to go celebrate. So we went to the beach and had a little bit of unwinding time and and drank a few beers hanging out.
Speaker: 2
01:51:08
And so we’re out on the East Coast, down there close to Kennedy. And, we’re looking up at the sky, and you could see some of the satellites coming over. Right? Your eyes adjusted to the to the light. You could occasionally see some satellites coming over, and you kinda expect them to have a track that goes, you know, west to east, if you will, generally.
Speaker: 2
01:51:29
I mean, they can come to all different angles. But then we started seeing some, some satellite tracks that were very different from what we might expect being rocket scientists. Right? We’re watching this stuff. That looks a little different. That’s kinda interesting. And it’s sai a very different angle.
Speaker: 2
01:51:47
Well, maybe it’s a Russian spy satellite that’s retrograde and it’s you know, we’re we’re trying to figure out what this could be. And then, a couple more beers later, we see four or five more of these tracks, right? And we’re like, Well, maybe all these people that talk about these crazy things, ai? Maybe there’s something to that, right?
Speaker: 2
01:52:06
Now this is about an hour has gone by as we’ve gone through this process. And, Ai we finally see another one of these little glowy orbs, if you will. And I I look at it, and I and I just realized out of the the edge of the glowy orb, the wings of a seagull. Right? So it’s the it’s the white belly of a seagull reflecting the light the near the light from the nearby city. And so that’s what we’re seeing. Right?
Speaker: 2
01:52:32
And so that’s one of those things that’s just something to to make you you know, think about what you’re seeing. It may not be I mean because it’s it’s it’s breaking all ai guessing machines. It’s breaking all of our guessing machines, and we’re we’re wondering and speculating about it.
Speaker: 2
01:52:45
But in the end, it was just, you know, it was just a it was a seagull doing their nightly business. Right? Look at these silly guys looking at me. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:52:53
Sai That’s funny. That is funny.
Speaker: 2
01:52:55
Sai, yeah, that’s my only experience.
Speaker: 1
01:52:56
Yeah. Well, the mind definitely plays tricks on you, especially bryden beer is involved.
Speaker: 2
01:52:59
Right. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:53:00
Right. But I I can’t dismiss all of the different very serious people that have talked about these things. And that’s where, I get really perplexed sana my agnosticism gets it gets tested.
Speaker: 2
01:53:14
Right. Right. I, you know, I I I tend to try and always keep a squinty eye towards it, and I think that’s probably good, to to do that because then that the stuff that survives that filter, right, is is high quality stuff. Right? So the the the things that keep coming out of the the the Tic Tac thing, I Sai just I can’t kill that.
Speaker: 2
01:53:33
I keep wanting to try and kill it, but I I can’t.
Speaker: 1
01:53:36
What about when you look at things like the go fast video or the FLIR video and you you look at these crafts that are moving in some very weird way that they don’t exhibit traditional propulsion signatures?
Speaker: 2
01:53:48
It sai, yes, those are interesting videos, and they come from trained professional fighter Pull up
Speaker: 1
01:53:56
the one where it rotates, Jamie.
Speaker: 2
01:53:58
Fighter pilots. And so I I can’t I can’t dismiss those accounts. But the the integrated quality of that data is not the same as the the Tic Tac Right. Ai, where you’ve got multiple aircraft, multiple radar systems over multiple days. Right? That’s one of those
Speaker: 1
01:54:18
And eyewitnesses.
Speaker: 2
01:54:18
It’s yes. Exactly. And and not only eyewitnesses. I mean, they’re they’re laying eyes on this thing. And you and it’s not just one plane where sometimes you can fool yourself.
Speaker: 1
01:54:29
Look at this thing. It’s very this is the Gimbal video. This thing ai very strange. Right. Put the guys talking about it because he
Speaker: 0
01:54:37
Oh, going against the wind. The wind’s a hundred sana point out to the west. Oh, thank you. That’s not LNS though, is it? It’s not LNS. LNS. Well, if there’s a lot of things, it’s rotating.
Speaker: 1
01:55:00
It’s rotating. It’s going against the ai, and it’s rotating.
Speaker: 2
01:55:05
And Ai, you know, I I acknowledge the fact it doesn’t have any thermal signatures that were indicative of, like, a a plume or something like that. Right? So, some of those things definitely are hard to explain.
Speaker: 1
01:55:16
It’s also listening to these guys Mhmm. Listening to fighter pilots.
Speaker: 2
01:55:19
Go
Speaker: 1
01:55:20
on. Look at that thing.
Speaker: 2
01:55:21
Yeah. Because their ai their eyes are trained Right. To go through and and, discern, different things. Because, you know, they’re always thinking about, you know, can this kill me? Can I kill it? What do I need? You know, they’re I I completely acknowledge the fact they have that that framework, drilled into their head, and that helps, put this into a special category.
Speaker: 2
01:55:41
But those are unfortunately single data points, so I can’t do anything with that. Right? And that and that gets back to what we talked about at the beginning of all this. I would love for somebody to show up with a a notebook, right, full of all these great observations that would help meh.
Speaker: 2
01:55:56
You know, we’re making these little these little nanochips that are we’re trying to use to extract energy. Those? Yeah. Sure. These Is
Speaker: 1
01:56:02
that the actual nanochips?
Speaker: 2
01:56:03
These are a bunch of the nanochips that we’re doing. This is part of the Casimir company that we spun out. These chips, interact with the quantum field, and generate a voltage potential between those leads. And so we, we measure voltage on those ai. We put them in dark RF shielded enclosures. There’s some pictures. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:56:21
That’s
Speaker: 2
01:56:22
so cool. And so
Speaker: 1
01:56:23
Just looking at these is so cool.
Speaker: 2
01:56:24
Yeah. Yeah. It well, it and it’s fun to think about how do you even make stuff like that. We can talk about that in just a minute. But, you know, let’s talk about the some of the applications. Right? You know, this this is let’s see. Can we go back a couple slides? Keep going. Keep going.
Speaker: 2
01:56:40
Keep going. One more. Alright. So let’s just spend maybe three minutes here talking about the CASMIR force, at least taking up picking up where we left off.
Speaker: 1
01:56:51
Okay.
Speaker: 2
01:56:52
Right? So we talked about the idea of the Casimir force is a macroscopic observational consequence of something called the the quantum vacuum, these fluctuating fields and forces. If you go to the next slide, Jamie. So conceptually, the following is true independent of anything that we’re doing with the nanotechnology we’re developing.
Speaker: 2
01:57:12
If you allow the quantum field to interact on these two metal plates that we talked about as part of the Casimir force, It will apply a force over a distance, and it will cause that gap to close and go to zero. Right? So that is, by definition, a force over a distance, and so that is a unit of work.
Speaker: 2
01:57:33
So the Casimir force phenomena is a illustration of extracting energy from the quantum field. So independent of anything that we’re doing, right, that’s part of what’s baked into the idea of the Casimir force interacting with the quantum field. Now the you might say, well, maybe we could use that as a power source.
Speaker: 2
01:57:53
The only the only problem with this textbook illustration of a Casimir cavity is Once the once the plates have collapsed, there’s no more you can’t get any more energy out of it. You have to actually pull the plates apart. You have to wind the wind the watch again, if you will.
Speaker: 2
01:58:09
And so this type of an approach would at best simply be a battery. So you couldn’t extract continuous energy from the quantum field from this type of an apparatus. So this leads into an innovation that we came across. So Jamie, if you go forward one more slide. This is a slightly larger version of that that scanning electron microscope image. So we’ve changed the the standard CASME or cavity concept, by adding these pillars along the midplane.
Speaker: 2
01:58:40
So we have these structures that we put inside the middle of the Casimir cavity. And so you see we’ve got a a cavity wall on the left and a cavity wall on the right and these big three pillars. The walls are fixed to the substrate. They can’t move. We don’t want them to move. We want them to stay still.
Speaker: 2
01:58:57
And then the pillars are also fixed to the substrate. They cannot move. The walls are electrically connected to one another, and the pillars are electrically connected to one another, but they’re isolated. So that’s just a physical description of what this is. So now let’s talk about how does this custom structure interact with the quantum field? What’s the difference with this particular structure?
Speaker: 2
01:59:25
So for that, let me give you a metaphor. Imagine a Pacific Atoll Island out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. It’s surrounded by the Pacific Ocean with all this random wave energy that’s beating the outside of the atoll island. But at the center of the atoll island, there’s a nice lagoon. Right? Very quiescent, very smooth.
Speaker: 2
01:59:47
The water’s connected to the Pacific, but a lot of that wave energy can’t manifest on the lagoon. So it’s a protected and nice environment. So imagine, Joe, you’re sipping, you know, some some ai, water and having a nice paddle paddle board day, quiescent enjoying yourself.
Speaker: 2
02:00:06
And, you know, Jamie, he took the other, package, and he went deep sea fishing out on the Pacific Ocean. And so he’s really bobbling back and forth, and it’s much more uncomfortable for him. Maybe he’s getting sick and feeding the fish. Ai? So now with that metaphor in mind, let’s come back to the structure.
Speaker: 2
02:00:24
So this structure, the walls on the outside are like the Pacific Atoll Island inside the quantum field, which is like the Pacific Ocean. So it’s assaulting that structure on all sides. The pillars are like you on your paddle board in the lagoon. It’s a protected environment.
Speaker: 2
02:00:43
And so the way the quantum field interacts with this structure is it will occasionally cause a real electron inside the walls to quantum tunnel to the pillars. And so the pillars are like you on your paddleboard. It’s a very quiescent ai. And so the electron shows up through this quantum tunneling process, but there’s no wave energy on the lagoon to mirror that current back to the walls.
Speaker: 2
02:01:10
So in that way, this structure will interact with the quantum field and generate a voltage potential. So we can measure a negative voltage on the pillars relative to the wall. And so although this is a very tiny little cavity, and we can measure the voltage directly using atomic force microscopes, If we put these guys together by the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, then we can get to voltage and current levels that map to things that we care about in application ai, you know, tire pressure monitor system, something that uses, you know, microwatts worth of power or, a Fitbit or, you know, you’ve got the ring there.
Speaker: 2
02:01:53
I think that’s an electronic ring or something like that. It’s like
Speaker: 1
02:01:56
an Oura ring?
Speaker: 2
02:01:57
Yeah. Some some low power applications. And so using this, you know, this approach, we’re trying to generate, we’re trying to create, chips that are about the size of your pinky nail that, you know, generate one and a half volts and 25 microamps. And so that maps to a number of chips that are on the market today, that operate at that power level, but they, you know, they have to be recharged.
Speaker: 2
02:02:21
We we don’t have to be recharged. We’re like a solar panel that works in the dark. So you can put us in your ai, and then it can go down to the bottom of the ocean, and it will continue to work. Or you can we can give it to our buddies at Intuitive Machines, and they can carry it to the surface of the moon.
Speaker: 2
02:02:37
And maybe they wanna throw a sensor off to go measure something, and it’ll collect data Mhmm. Even though the sun stops shining. So the the the cool thing is, like I said at the beginning of this interview, we we were going down this whole path of trying to understand the nature of the quantum field because we were motivated by where we might envision it could lead one day.
Speaker: 2
02:02:58
Maybe we could add more a deeper understanding of that physics Venn diagram and get to a point where we can figure out what do we need to put into the rings that go around that Ai enterprise concept shift, if you will. And so it’s cool to think that, you know, may maybe we could come up with a technology that, you know, provides useful power today for things like this.
Speaker: 2
02:03:19
Maybe, you know, as we if we if we put it in aggregate, if we put a lot of them together, right, we could get to a point where
Speaker: 1
02:03:27
What is that chip?
Speaker: 2
02:03:28
Sai this is so this is just a three d print of having a bunch of of those little chips that are one five millimeters by five millimeters, one and a half volts, 25 microamps. If we add a bunch of those together at a very large extreme, you know, that particular board might generate 3.4 watts.
Speaker: 2
02:03:44
And so that board could recharge your phone in three hours. And so imagine a scenario where you had a had a phone that’s pretty resilient that for the most parts, you’d never have to plug it in. That might be pretty useful. Right? So and it’s neat to think that pursuing, you know, this whole reaching for the stars type of thing has fueled this exploration of pushing the boundaries of what we know and then kind of coming across instantiations that make us go, hey.
Speaker: 2
02:04:17
Wait a minute. Not you know, although we were thinking about these kinds of things, look look at what we could potentially do now. And so we could find ways to, you know, feed the research and still bring value here in in incredible ways. I mean, this this capability is amazing to think in terms of what it could unlock. Mhmm. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:04:35
Especially if we could you know, if this is three three and a half watts, you could imagine you put a bunch of these together, you could rapidly get to a kilowatt or even more, right, and have expeditionary power. You know, I don’t know if you’ve ever wanted to have a, you know, a a farm out in the middle of some untouched area where you didn’t wanna pay the money to run the power ai, well, now maybe you, you know, in ten, fifteen years, maybe you wouldn’t have to.
Speaker: 2
02:05:00
We we could provide a solution that would allow you to come off the grid. Right? So
Speaker: 1
02:05:04
I was seeing something online about some new technology that I believe was invented in Japan where they have figured out a way to extract far more energy from solar panels.
Speaker: 2
02:05:16
Yeah. I think they’ve increased the efficiency on solar panels, but there is a limit to that. Right? In terms of, I think it’s your you know, when you get to close to 40% efficiency on a solar panel, you’re kind of at the limit of what you can do. And then the challenge you have with the solar panel is at the surface of the earth during ideal peak lighting conditions, the flux of power you get is about a thousand watts per square meter.
Speaker: 2
02:05:43
Right? So if you wanted, you know, a system that provided five kilowatts of of power, you you could do the math and figure you need a a fairly big area. With our technology, we can stack it on top of one another. We don’t have to stretch out like that. And so the quantum field could potentially ai a lot more power with a much smaller footprint, if you will. Right now, I have to acknowledge we’re still very early.
Speaker: 2
02:06:09
Right? We’re very low power levels, and so we wanna crawl, walk, run. But we’re, you know, we’re thinking about what can we do now to to to provide use, Right? And then use those applications to to continue to grow the capability, at Casimir.
Speaker: 1
02:06:24
And then, ultimately, if you have those things stacked
Speaker: 0
02:06:28
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:06:28
50 feet thick and, you know, 700 meters in a circle Yeah. You know, then you have enough power to make a warp drive. Right.
Speaker: 2
02:06:37
Well and and but and so this gets into the the cool thing is what we’re what we’re trying to understand and study inside these little chips that we’re making is we’re trying to understand the nature of the quantum field, ai? The structure to the quantum field. How can we alternate? How can we tweak it? What can we do with it?
Speaker: 2
02:06:56
Because we talked about the fact that negative vacuum energy density is potentially a good proxy for the idea of exotic matter in terms of what general relativity requires. And so in the process of deep developing a deeper understanding of the quantum field with what we’re doing with these devices, right, I would contend that we’re actually adding another circle on that Venn diagram that’s potentially not not only overlapping part of quantum mechanics, but it’s also overlapping part of general relativity.
Speaker: 2
02:07:26
And I think that’s kind of what’s gonna be necessary to be able to make the idea a spacewarp real one day. We’re gonna have to have that new body of physics, those new e equals meh squared equations, right, that allows us to potentially, ah, hey. If I do this and this and this, then it might you know, maybe I could solve that problem.
Speaker: 2
02:07:47
But I think your instincts are right on, right, from the standpoint what we’re doing in in the micro here. Right? If you cracked open one of the access panels on the IXS Enterprise and you looked, you might see some some stuff that’s ai, I can see how these guys are descendants to what gets put together in that, in that ring in macroscopic, whatever that might be.
Speaker: 2
02:08:10
Right?
Speaker: 1
02:08:11
Sai It’s gotta be so frustrating that this has this immense potential, but, like, imagine seeing it. Like, how do you get to do it? It’s I’m not I sana say frustrating, challenging, exciting.
Speaker: 2
02:08:24
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:08:25
Just knowing that there’s this potential energy source that could be tapped. Mhmm. And knowing that just like all technology I mean, if you go back to the Apollo program, the amount of power that you have in your phone far exceeds what what they used and they had, like, a whole giant room filled with supercomputers.
Speaker: 1
02:08:42
And now you just carry it around and you plug it into the wall and it’s 50% charged in twenty minutes. Yeah. It’s ai nuts.
Speaker: 2
02:08:47
Man, we we take that for great it it’s interesting you mentioned that. Right? If you if you look back through the if you think about the industrial revolution, when when we when we started when we came up with steam power. Mhmm. Right? And then when we later figured out, you know, gasoline engines. Right? The the amount of power we had available to us changed so drastically. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:09:11
The change that it had on human civilization and human culture is just hard to fully comprehend because, I mean, if you think about all the different things that get done, you know, a single tractor with one person on it will, you know, do all the stuff that’s necessary to seed a field, to cultivate a field, to plow a field.
Speaker: 2
02:09:35
And it’s it’s amazing to think that that’s possible just with one human being at the helm of the tractor, but you had to unlock all the energy, the insights to unlock the energy in what we know from petrochemical. Right? Just sai, diesel, whatever. Right? And so, yeah, it’s it’s neat to think how things like that change civilization.
Speaker: 2
02:09:55
And sai, in some ways, it’s like if you if you think about the the the long term benefits of reducing something like this to practice, right, the you know, we talk about the grid. Right? You were here in Texas, and we I think we had some issues during a very cold winter
Speaker: 1
02:10:14
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
02:10:14
Where ERCOT got its r removed. Right? The the power grid has some issues because it got really cold. But imagine a future where we can start to create microgrids, maybe even eventually move away from something like that. And then what would that kind of a capability do for parts of the world that currently don’t have any infrastructure in place?
Speaker: 1
02:10:37
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:10:37
Right? There’s a lot of places in in Africa where if you brought these this type of a capability where you could plop a brick down on the table that’s one kilowatt, Right? And let people know you can hey. Can you make use of this? And so just like Starlink provides this opportunity for people in remote locations to have access to the Internet. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:10:58
We could potentially bring a solution to the table that could help a lot of places on the planet, that, you know, it meh they might not ever see that otherwise.
Speaker: 3
02:11:07
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:11:07
So that’s the thing. So that those are some things that have us excited about as we continue to wrestle with technology. Right? Anytime you’re trying to do something, when you’re trying to establish order where there’s only chaos, it’s hard. Right? But, that it the things that help us weather that is the the long term implications of what we’re doing, both in the near term and in the far term.
Speaker: 2
02:11:29
It’s really cool to think. Right? We can provide benefits, you know, here and then farther down the line here and then farther down the line to here. And then, oh, by the way, the whole reason we’re doing all this stuff is because we hope to try and make the idea of a speak warp possible one day.
Speaker: 2
02:11:45
Right? It’s it’s cool to kinda have that that connection between all these different nodes, along the way. Or you
Speaker: 1
02:11:51
can see the path.
Speaker: 2
02:11:52
Path. Yeah. Yeah. You could see the path. Right? I ai, you could see how it’d be useful
Speaker: 1
02:11:56
Right. Ai people today. Right.
Speaker: 2
02:11:57
I mean, think about, like, what when we have a hurricane that hits, right, and the power goes out, you’re without power until they can get power lines up. Right? If you have capabilities like this, maybe fifty years in the future or something like ai, right, where everybody just you know, they’re off the grid.
Speaker: 1
02:12:14
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:12:14
That changes the nature of how we contend with, you know, disasters like that. Right. So
Speaker: 1
02:12:21
And monopolizing resources.
Speaker: 2
02:12:23
Mhmm. Right.
Speaker: 1
02:12:23
That’s the other issue. We’d no longer be dependent upon fossil fuels or essentially everyone would be independent. Right. And then you could imagine as it scales up, it gets better and better just like cell phones were initially these very large bricks that, you know, remember from Wall Street?
Speaker: 1
02:12:39
Like, I have
Speaker: 2
02:12:40
Oh, hi. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Sure. I can do dinner. This is big brick with you.
Speaker: 1
02:12:44
Yeah. Yeah. And now they’re these little tiny things. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:12:47
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:12:47
And so you could imagine how that would eventually get to a point where it it’s portable and and anyone can have power everywhere you wanna go.
Speaker: 2
02:12:55
Yeah. So some of the things we think about in terms of the the road map for things. Right? You know, it may take us a little while before we could, provide all the power that’s necessary for, like, a Tesla. But we could we could imagine a scenario where, like I’m gonna hold this little prop up again.
Speaker: 2
02:13:13
We’ve got this this three and a half watt brick three and a half watt card. Maybe we put a bunch of them together to create a a one kilowatt module of sorts. Mhmm. So maybe a Tesla’s got 50 kilowatt hours worth of capacity in it. Most of your daily driving that folks do is, you know, to work and home.
Speaker: 2
02:13:36
So it’s maybe 50 miles to and 50 miles, from, a hundred miles a day. Right? And so if you’ve got a a a an electric vehicle that has all the batteries already in it, but then you you make the decision to buy a a one kilowatt, you know, Casimir module Mhmm. Right, and you connect it to your car, that module will provide over a twenty four hour period, it’ll provide 24 kilowatt hours of capacity.
Speaker: 2
02:14:03
And so in terms of the the driving duty that I just talked to you about, right, you’re not gonna drain the battery enough where the Casimir cell couldn’t just continue to recharge it. So in that particular instance, even though we we might be a little bit farther away from, you know, being able to power a whole car, we we might be able to find opportunities for early adopters where, hey, for 99% of how you might use your electric vehicle, you don’t have to plug it in.
Speaker: 2
02:14:32
Right?
Speaker: 1
02:14:32
So from where we are now with your current research and all these these incredible ideas, what what steps have to be taken in order to advance this stuff?
Speaker: 2
02:14:43
Right. Right. So the the first step is trying to get to the power magnitude I just described, one and a half volts and 25 microamps. So we we have chips these chips right here, you know, they can achieve very high voltages, but then they relax to a certain steady state voltage over a long term.
Speaker: 2
02:15:00
Right? So they have they have the ability to provide steady state power, but it’s ai 30 meh, 30 millivolts, with a steady state current. And so it’s the current that we’re currently working on right now. We’re trying to get the current up to that 25 microamp ability right now.
Speaker: 2
02:15:15
And so that’s the stuff that we’re doing. You know, every month, we’re trying to do another generation of, chips to go through and and work the material science and get that capacity to that level. So and making chips is that’s tough. That is tough business. So it’s been quite the slog. You know, we’ve we’ve been doing this since 02/2020.
Speaker: 2
02:15:36
The first chips we worked on took us, you know, eighteen months to make. And then we got the time down to twelve months, and then we got the time down to seven months. And then we got, you know, we got, these guys down to it’s actually this was a two week sprint from the time we did the design to the time we got them in hand.
Speaker: 2
02:15:53
But, roughly, we’re anticipating we can make these generations once a month. So making chips is very different from, you know, how we view the rest. Like, this wooden table. Right? You know, if you Right. If you think about making something, you think about drills and saws and cutting holes and putting bolts in and so forth.
Speaker: 2
02:16:13
But when you talk about making chips, it’s an entirely different approach to how you make things. You make things with with ai, and you make things with plasma. Right? You know? This will be a good opportunity for me to use a a little vatsal description, and then you can grade me on how well I communicate this. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:16:30
Okay. So how you know, in in concept, how do you make something smaller than what you can see with your eyeballs? So ordinarily, when we wanna look at something very small, we use a microscope. Right? So we got this optical system we look through, and then we look at something.
Speaker: 2
02:16:47
Maybe it’s got a paramecium or whatever in it. Now the what we’re looking at is very tiny, and we use optics to blow that up. And in some cases, instead of putting our eyes against the the the little view ports on the microscope, maybe we’ll put an imager, a camera on there.
Speaker: 2
02:17:05
And we’ll take the camera will collect the image and put it on a big screen, a big LCD screen. Now if you think about that in reverse, what if you you know, like, let’s say you’re looking at you’re looking at our chips, and you’re seeing these squares and circles and tiny little different shapes and so forth, but it’s projected on a big screen.
Speaker: 2
02:17:25
Now imagine for a moment instead, you go through in some CAD program and you draw squares and circles or whatever. Maybe you you draw a picture of Jamie’s head. Right? And then you go through and you take that that that digital file you just created, and you you kinda look at this whole process that I was talking about in reverse.
Speaker: 2
02:17:44
And so instead of using a imager to collect the image, use a projector to project the image back down through the optics, right, where now you project some shape you want to manifest on a chip. Right? But you you can’t see it with you could look at it with your eyes, but you couldn’t see it. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:18:03
But you’re using this projection system through the microscope in reverse to put the image down on the chip. So now the next thing you do is you take a let’s say you got a silicon wafer, and then you go through and you you apply something we call photoresist. It’s ai, like a really thick, almost like a a honey type of consistent a little thinner than that. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:18:25
But you you put some photoresist on the wafer, and then you spin it at really high Ram, and it spins that photoresist so that it’s very thin. And you take that wafer with the photoresist, and you expose it to the image you sana put onto it with ultraviolet light. Right? And so that hardens part of that photoresist. And then you develop that wafer to remove all of the photoresist that was not exposed to the ultraviolet light.
Speaker: 2
02:18:52
And then maybe you expose it to a plasma and you etch it. And so every place where there’s no photoresist, it etches the surface. But where the where the photoresist ai because you exposed it with your ultraviolet light, you now have an image. So you could look at that with a microscope again, and then you’d see, you know, Jamie’s bug on the surface of the silicon wafer.
Speaker: 2
02:19:15
And so in concept, that’s how the idea of when you make a CPU or you make memory or you make any of this digital technology, that’s that’s technically how it works. You are you old enough to remember microfiche? What is that? You know, the little film? Yeah. The little acetate things in school that you put in.
Speaker: 1
02:19:36
Right? So Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:19:37
Yeah. Yeah. So that’s another ai of illustration of it, but, just not applied to a chip. Right? So
Speaker: 1
02:19:42
Well, I would imagine the manufacturing of something like this is a spectacular undertaking that would require a long time to develop the kind of factories that you would need to do this kind of stuff at scale in The United States. And this is a this is an issue that we have that was really highlighted by the the COVID pandemic where we weren’t able to get shipments of things, and a lot of cars weren’t for sale Yep.
Speaker: 1
02:20:06
Because they didn’t have the chips to put in a lot of the new, American vehicles.
Speaker: 2
02:20:11
Or in some cases, they took functionality out because they couldn’t get the ding dang chips. Right. To go do what they wanted to go do. Yeah. This this yeah. I was really glad to see a lot of attention be brought to bear, with I think it was the CHIPS Act. Mhmm. And even Texas has taken a very strong stance on trying to, ai and attract, some chip manufacturing capability, here in Texas. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:20:38
Yeah. We’re talking about the Samsung plant that they built here that but it but the the Samsung plant kinda highlights the issues because they weren’t able to achieve the tolerances that they ai in in large batches.
Speaker: 2
02:20:50
I think I think they’ll eventually get there. Right? This is those are just illustrations of the fact it takes a while to get everything dialed in. Just ai, you know, it took us eighteen months to get our first chip, and then now we’re getting a two week sprint. We can we can make our chip, but it took five years, to get to that capability, if you will. They’ll I think they’ll get all that figured out.
Speaker: 2
02:21:09
But in my mind, the the other value proposition for chip manufacturing, right, is to me, chip manufacturing is like the, twenty first century automobile manufacturing jobs, if you will. It seems like that could provide a great opportunity for, you know, people to get meaningful work that pays well, that makes a product that a lot of people need.
Speaker: 2
02:21:32
Right? And so I think in some ways, that’s the that that’s the upside to trying to focus on getting more chip manufacturing here in The States. Right? So I I just think that’s a that’s a win that’s a win win. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:21:46
Yeah. Because chip manufacturing one of the things that Apple stated, they they have a apparently, a big leap coming forward with the iPhone 17. Yeah. And, they think that they’re they’re gonna have to manufacture these in China. I was reading Tim Cook talking about it because they’re saying that China is the only nation that’s capable of achieving what they’re trying to put into these.
Speaker: 1
02:22:09
Is it is it China or Taiwan? I believe I don’t know. I believe it’s China.
Speaker: 3
02:22:12
I think
Speaker: 2
02:22:12
because I think I I I certainly no. I don’t know definitively either. Right? When Sai when I think of I think
Speaker: 1
02:22:18
it actually maybe it’s just manufacturing that’s the issue, not the chips.
Speaker: 2
02:22:22
Okay.
Speaker: 1
02:22:22
But sai if you could find what Tim Cook said about needing to develop the iPhone or manufacture the iPhone 17? Because I think a lot of their stuff they do in India now Mhmm. But they think this new one is gonna be so sophisticated that they’re gonna have to have it made back in China again.
Speaker: 2
02:22:37
Yeah. I’d so when I when I think of cutting edge chip capability, I think of TSMC
Speaker: 1
02:22:42
Right.
Speaker: 2
02:22:43
That is, in Taiwan. Taiwan.
Speaker: 1
02:22:46
Right. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:22:46
And they’ve got those those machines, the ASML machines that have that this is a a very interesting thing. Right? Sai, Ed, the the machines that help make some of those tiny chips that are inside the iPhone, they’re made by this machine, that’s, developed by a company called ASML over in, The Netherlands.
Speaker: 2
02:23:06
And, you know, part of me thinks it’s ai, that’s a very small brain trust of people, right, that are making machines that are ai of, you know, setting the pace for you know? Because I think about how what happens if somebody you know, a bus has an accident or something like that. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:23:23
Because it’s just ai such a small group of people that have this skill on how to make these Right. These tiny little features that are two or three nanometers. I mean, that that’s like that’s crazy small. And we’re so we’re
Speaker: 1
02:23:35
Yeah. What percentage of the population can do that?
Speaker: 2
02:23:37
Right. There’s not a lot. And and two or three nanometers, it’s like that’s you know, if you were to if if you were to put DNA on the table, right, and you calculated two or three nanometers, it’d be it’d be as very oh, here. Let me give you a here’s a here’s a better comparison.
Speaker: 2
02:23:52
If you hold a marble in your hand and you imagine that is one nanometer, right, it just kind of a comparison error. Right? So you have a marble in your hand. That’s one nanometer. Well, how big is a meter? A meter is the size of the earth by comparison.
Speaker: 2
02:24:06
So just just to put a nanometer in mind. Right? So we can all envision a meter. Wow. Right? So that puts a nanometer to scale. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:24:15
And so they’re they’re making things vatsal features that have this, you know, handful of nanometers in mind. Now that said, I I I do think I do think
Speaker: 1
02:24:24
That is so crazy.
Speaker: 2
02:24:25
I do think chips are reaching a limit in terms of what they can do for the lateral features. The next big chapter, I think, for chips is they’re gonna go three d. They’re gonna start making them. They’ve got a bunch of efforts in place to try and figure out how to make, chips much more, three d.
Speaker: 2
02:24:40
Like, especially when they may even include multiple different chips, right, that that serve different purposes, if you will. You’ll no longer just have the single flat chip that does the surface. There’ll be a bunch of chips on top of one another that get integrated into assembly.
Speaker: 2
02:24:54
You already see it in this tire pressure monitor system. There’s a little chip here on the back of it. It’s actually a system of chips. There’s a bunch of chips in that little silver piece on the end there. There’s a microprocessor. There’s a Bluetooth module.
Speaker: 2
02:25:06
There’s a pressure sensor, and then there was there’s a receipt.
Speaker: 1
02:25:09
Look how small that is.
Speaker: 4
02:25:10
Yeah. That’s
Speaker: 2
02:25:11
that’s just that’s nothing. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:25:12
Tiny. So
Speaker: 2
02:25:13
that that little shiny silver piece yeah. That shiny that shiny silver piece, that is it’s not only just the pressure sensor. It’s all the other, support electronics. And everything else is just, you know, simple dumb stuff.
Speaker: 1
02:25:24
And a big battery in comparison to everything else.
Speaker: 2
02:25:26
And a big battery that has to last five years. Right? And so that’s Nice. You know, that’s why they and it and it this is not you don’t take the lid off this thing. This is glued on. Right? It’s it’s sai it’s a you’re when it’s done, you just throw it away. Right? So that’s tyler current operating process.
Speaker: 2
02:25:41
So
Speaker: 1
02:25:41
So crazy. Now when you think about the current capabilities of AI and how it’s expanding at a very rapid rate, do you think that that will assist us in being able to figure out new ways to accomplish these tasks?
Speaker: 2
02:25:57
You know, I I think so when AI first came out, I Ai tried it a few times and, I wasn’t satisfied with with, you know, the the quality of what I was able to do with it. This is a number of years ago. Right? But, you know, in the last, last twelve months, I’ve kinda gotten in the habit of using it much more in in a lot of the different things that I do.
Speaker: 2
02:26:18
And it certainly does bring a lot of value in certain certain areas. And, you know, the a lot of people talk about artificial intelligence is gonna kill us. Oh ai gosh. It’s gonna kill us. Right? And and I Sai don’t think it’s artificial intelligence that’s gonna, you know, that’s gonna be a potential big problem.
Speaker: 2
02:26:38
It’s more a measure of artificial incompetence. Right? Let and so let me let me unpack
Speaker: 1
02:26:44
that. Okay.
Speaker: 2
02:26:44
So I I think AI is an amazing tool, and it’s only gonna get more useful as we continue to move forward. And I use it every single day, right, in terms of different things that that I explore. It’s extremely useful. And there’s times when you’re interacting with it where you might even think to yourself, ai. Come on.
Speaker: 2
02:27:00
Is there some dude actually typing on the other side of the screen? Because it’s like it’s joking with me for crying out loud. And it’s instantaneous. Right. And it’s instantaneous. Right? And so, I think as human beings, we tend to anthropomorphize everything. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:27:14
And so I think in a lot of ways, we want to give it more credit than it is due. Right? And so we when we interact with it, we we might think based on the quality of the interaction, oh ai gosh. This this stuff is amazing. This is artificial general intelligence. But then it’ll go off and do something totally boneheaded, and you’ll even call it on it. And it’ll say, no.
Speaker: 2
02:27:34
I’m I’m I did this exactly right. And it’s just like and you know from your own training, right, that whatever it offered up is is quite Not ready meh. Quite wrong. Right? And so ready for prime time. Sai keep I keep waiting for somebody. Do you do you remember the movie doctor Strangelove Yes. From the sixties. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:27:50
So it’s Stanley Kubrick thing and this movie of absurdity showing, you know, how incompetence in the government and the military leads to the destruction of of the world, if you will. You know, it’s like we need a a Stanley Kubrick equivalent today to to do a a movie called AI Bob, right, where AI Bob, you know, accidentally takes out the world while trying to help.
Speaker: 2
02:28:14
Right? You know? Right. And it just I I think it’s one of those things where I think AI is an amazing tool. We need to find out more ways to use it. It’s incredible.
Speaker: 2
02:28:23
But I think we just need to remind ourselves it’s not quite as capable as we might think it is. And we need to be careful of that so that we don’t, you know, put it in control of something in a certain way where because it has these other faults, right, it does something that’s really unfortunate.
Speaker: 2
02:28:40
Right? So
Speaker: 1
02:28:40
So we have to make sure that it’s reached a very high level of proficiency before it gets Ai.
Speaker: 2
02:28:45
Or just be careful how we use it Right. And never be afraid to question what it provides. Right? Because there’s no question. It helps me be faster at a lot of stuff I wanna do. Right? But I have a lot of skills and talent that I use to filter whatever it’s giving me, and I go, no. That’s totally wrong. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:29:02
So
Speaker: 1
02:29:03
But I wouldn’t be able to do that.
Speaker: 0
02:29:05
I would
Speaker: 1
02:29:05
just trust it. I’d build something that kills everybody.
Speaker: 2
02:29:09
Yeah. That’s Dang it. I forgot to carry the two. Right.
Speaker: 1
02:29:12
Well, when you when you think about the potential future versions of AI, that’s where things get very interesting. Because if you do get to a point where it it achieves a much higher level of understanding of all the physical properties of the of the universe and and does really understand the quantum vacuum and does really understand how to utilize ai.
Speaker: 2
02:29:30
So I think I think one of the things because I have been thinking about this. It is and and I know a lot of other people are trying to figure out how to use AI to go through and help navigate on physics frontiers. You know, AI is trained on a bunch of existing data. Right? And so in some ways, it is an an enormous experiment in statistics.
Speaker: 2
02:29:56
And so so I I I would I would wonder how, how much an AI system by itself, could could innovate new ideas. It certainly could recognize patterns. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:30:09
Once you institute sentience and then if if it’s possible at all to make it creative. Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
02:30:18
That that’s where I that’s where I wonder what great question. And I I’m not an AI expert, so I’m not I’m gonna tread very carefully here. When I think about how they train AI today, it is certainly a measure of statistics. Right? And so when you talk about an AI agent being able to actually think in the way that you and I might consider thinking, I don’t think anything that we have does that per se.
Speaker: 2
02:30:47
Right? You just got a a bunch of GPUs that are taking an input and then passing it through a matrix of all this stuff that’s from training, and then so the statistics of what comes out, right, is a result of whatever training that was done. So it’s not like, it’s not ai, Leonardo da Vinci, imagining where he’s gonna put his next brushstroke on the the ceiling of the the Sistine Chapel.
Speaker: 2
02:31:14
But, certainly, it could it could potentially, you know, take an image of the Sistine Chapel and mix it with an image of some other modern art or whatever and come up with some cool homogenization of things, right, and so forth. So I I I still think Ai I think we need to better understand what is consciousness, right, before we can really even do that.
Speaker: 1
02:31:37
What do you what do you think it is?
Speaker: 2
02:31:39
Oh, that’s yeah. I I
Speaker: 1
02:31:40
I Have you thought I know you thought about it.
Speaker: 2
02:31:42
You think about everything. Yeah. I don’t know. It’s a good question. I would I would speculate. Right? You know, maybe this comes down to the nature of the the quantum field, the quantum vacuum. You know, I I think there are other forms of radiation, scalar field fluctuations with the quantum field that are beyond electromagnetic, like the lights in this ram, this electromagnetic radiation.
Speaker: 2
02:32:11
Scalar fluctuations would potentially be a whole another realm of radiation that we currently don’t have any sensors to detect. Right? But maybe biology uses those types of things. And so there’s there are things inside cell structures called microtubules. I think Hal maybe even mentioned something about microtubules to you when he was here the other day.
Speaker: 2
02:32:33
But, cells have microtubule structures in them, and I think, that may be connected to the idea of consciousness. Although Ai don’t have a well enough formulated answer to be able to to defend anything. So I I’m treading very carefully because this is not my area of expertise.
Speaker: 1
02:32:50
But But it’s ai to speculate.
Speaker: 2
02:32:52
It is fun to speak, and I I maybe we can maybe we can schedule another opportunity to come back, and we can talk about consciousness, bring a couple other folks that are more cognizant than me.
Speaker: 1
02:33:02
I would love that. Yeah. That Yeah. You wanna organize that?
Speaker: 2
02:33:04
Yeah. Let’s Do you
Speaker: 1
02:33:04
know who you would call?
Speaker: 2
02:33:06
I don’t know yet. I’ll think about I’ll have
Speaker: 1
02:33:07
a I’ll
Speaker: 2
02:33:08
have a I’ll have a think. I actually probably have a couple other cool ideas for cool things we can we can confab on. I think a lot of people would really enjoy learning and listening about.
Speaker: 1
02:33:16
Well, that would be a fantastic collaboration with people that have theories about consciousness along with these theories, these quantum theories. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating stuff. Yeah. Harold, thank you so much.
Speaker: 2
02:33:26
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:33:27
Yeah. Sai interesting, and I’m so happy that people like you are out there in the world working on this stuff, which I’m sure one day, you know, when people look at the past and say, boy, look at those cave people. Look what they’re doing. You know what I’m saying? Because like Right.
Speaker: 1
02:33:40
Like, we would look at the Victorian people or we would look at people from thousands of years ago. I think they’ll Yeah. They’ll look back at this going, ai. They were this is where it all started. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:33:49
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This was the moment. Yeah. This is
Speaker: 1
02:33:50
the moment. Yeah. So let’s definitely do that. Let’s definitely have another visit and and bring in some people that will explore explore consciousness together.
Speaker: 2
02:33:56
Sounds good.
Speaker: 1
02:33:56
I love it. Thank you so much.
Speaker: 3
02:33:58
Really appreciate it. Thank you, Joe, for having ai, everybody ai.
