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#2295 – Scott Payne Podcast Episode Description
Scott Payne is a retired FBI Special Agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement investigating cases against drug trafficking organizations, human traffickers, outlaw motorcycle clubs, gangs, public corruption, and domestic terrorists. He is the co-author of the book “Code Name: Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America’s Nazis” and the subject of the podcast “White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse,” both created in collaboration with journalist Michelle Shephard.
https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Code-Name-Pale-Horse/Scott-Payne/9781668032909
https://www.cbc.ca/listen/cbc-podcasts/1031-white-hot-hate
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#2295 – Scott Payne Podcast Episode Top Keywords
#2295 – Scott Payne Podcast Episode Summary
In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience, the discussion centers around undercover operations, particularly focusing on the experiences of an undercover agent infiltrating dangerous groups. The episode features a detailed narrative of the agent’s journey, highlighting the complexities and risks involved in such assignments. The agent shares insights into the psychological and emotional challenges faced while maintaining a cover, including the need to adapt to different environments and the importance of understanding the group’s culture and language, such as the concept of a “red pill moment” in extremist circles.
The episode also touches on the operational aspects of undercover work, such as the necessity of controlled environments for training, including scenarios involving alcohol and drug use to prepare agents for real-world situations. The agent emphasizes the importance of building a strong case with overwhelming evidence to counter potential defense strategies like entrapment.
Recurring themes include the moral and ethical dilemmas faced by undercover agents, the importance of maintaining personal integrity, and the psychological toll of living a double life. The episode also highlights the role of teamwork and collaboration with law enforcement agencies, as illustrated by the involvement of various officers and agents in the operations discussed.
Actionable insights from the episode include the significance of thorough preparation and understanding of the target group, the need for clear communication and documentation in building a case, and the importance of mental resilience and support systems for those involved in undercover work. The overall message underscores the complexity and danger of undercover operations, as well as the critical role they play in law enforcement and public safety.
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#2295 – Scott Payne Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
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00:01
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan experience. Ai my day. Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
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00:12
You had a crazy fucking life, man. Like, a really crazy life.
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00:16
Sai to
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00:17
get everybody up to speed right from the beginning, you spent twenty five years undercover working for the FBI in the Klan Sai organizations and biker gangs.
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00:29
And then some. Yes, sir.
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00:31
What a crazy, crazy life that is. What first of all, how did you get how did you first get started doing that?
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00:40
Good question. I grew up in South Ai. Played ball, all that stuff. I I I was always kind of a I mean, if you look back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, because that’s not it. You’ve had plenty of people on the show that are complete badasses. But I was kind of a bully of bullies.
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00:57
I didn’t I always looked out I like the underdog. I bounced in college, so I was already learning that gift of gab, and fight techniques and stuff like that. And then I got I became a cop because ai I was in college, I took a course. Ai I’m taking electives. I went to college, so Ai have four more years to figure out what I was gonna do Yeah. Because I didn’t know what I was doing. Me too.
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01:19
Except partying. Except, you know I did three years. I Ai was good at partying. But, I hit an elective that was criminal justice and, man, I really liked it. Psychology was always a strong thing for meh, but it took a back speak and I ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology.
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01:40
But during those criminal justice courses, I was like, at first, for a fleeting moment, I said, I’m gonna be an attorney. Yeah. I’ll be an attorney. And then I realized I’d be a terrible attorney. I said, because if I was the defense attorney and they said they did it, I would probably just walk up and go, they did it. Right?
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01:57
That’s not gonna get me any clients. And if I was the prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam Kennison grabbing on meh going, say it. Say it. You know? You did it. So I’m like, yeah. That’s probably not the best role for me. And, I did a ride along with cops and, the department, and that was it.
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02:13
But once I got in to law enforcement, I was uniform vatsal for three years. I was just so fascinated with undercover. I don’t know what it was. I can’t really remember doing the book. I’ve tried to dive back in. People ask. I don’t really remember. I just know that I loved undercover movies, period.
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02:32
If it was a biker undercover, I don’t care how cheesy it was. I love them all. Mhmm. And then one of my mentors at the sheriff’s office, he was actually the world’s strongest man in the late eighties after Ai. Oh, wow.
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02:43
He was a he was a former marine, and big dude. And he, as a task force, had gone on a task force, had gone undercover in some biker gangs. And, man, I just I I was I wanted to be a biker. I grew up on motorcycles, and
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02:58
it just started taking off from there. You gotta think that biker gangs are probably super suspicious of people being undercover because it’s such a theme.
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03:07
You think? It’s been around
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03:08
Yeah. It’s been around forever. The stories of guys infiltrating biker gangs
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03:12
sai been around forever. Forty plus years right now. Easy. Yeah. And then and then there’s books made. There’s books made. They go to court. They learn.
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03:21
Yeah. So it was right after the Vietnam War. Right? That’s when all the biker gangs
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03:25
really started to take care of. Back to world I mean, my ai history is bad, but I think it goes back to, to World War at least two. Right? Because all those the way it goes, everybody always asks what a one percenter is. And it goes back I think it’s 1947, but it goes back to when, your veterans are getting out. They have nothing.
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03:45
They’re not they they had no decompression back then. They had no plans or programs for them, and they’ve been out here living this raucous, rowdy life. And now they’re back in The States, and now they’re supposed to just flip and be ai Right. So So they started creating these clubs, and they were doing some raucous and rowdy stuff.
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04:02
And then it was the president of the American Motorcycle Association that came out and made this statement that said something to the effect of, listen. 99% of all motorcycle riders are good law abiding citizens. There’s only 1% that’s bad. And they took that as a badge of honor and sai, we’re one percenters. Wow.
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04:20
Yeah. Cool stuff. Cool stuff.
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04:23
So who was the first person to infiltrate them? Do you know the history of that? No.
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04:27
I don’t. But it’s
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04:27
so it’s been going on forever.
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04:29
Soon as
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04:29
ai found out it’s like there’s been the case with the meh. It’s been the case with everything. Bernie Brasco. You know?
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04:35
Yep. My my mentor. One of my Really? Yeah. Did Joe Pistole? Absolutely. Oh, wow. He helped certified me. I saw him probably within the last six months or so. He graciously, he did a blurb on the book too. Oh, wow. I call him boss man. You know?
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04:49
So do you remember your first undercover assignment?
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04:52
Yes. Yeah. What’d you have to do? It was at the sheriff’s office. Saloni after three years of uniform, I make it, to narcotics investigator. Well, you got it’s it’s a tough crowd, but we’re funny. You know? But it’s it’s just like a good military group or anything else. There’s gonna be a lot of ribbon and stuff like that. So they they said, hey. You’re gonna go buy some dope tonight. It’s my first time.
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05:16
Now granted, I bought weed and stuff in high school and I was around those groups, but I never brought crack cocaine. I was already probably six four and I probably was about two sana pounds. I I did not look like I smoked crack unless I just fell off the wagon Just real recently. Or I just started. Yeah. Right.
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05:33
I’m I’m the vegan that shows up still smelling like beef. You know? Right. Right. I just stopped. But they told me that, hey. It’s really easy.
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05:40
You’re just gonna roll down to this corner. It’s a known ram a drug drug trafficking area. You’re gonna roll down there. White boy, you’re gonna roll down the window. They’re gonna come up to you and say, what do you want? And back then, it was a 20.
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05:50
You just get a rock, $20 for a rock and say, all you gotta do is hold that 20 and say, you just want a 20. So I drove down there. I know I I was I know I was scared because I was out of my comfort zone, but I was also scared to make a fool of myself in front of the narcotics guys and gals that were training me.
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06:08
And I roll down the street and I pull up and they come running up to the window. What you want? What you want? I ram the window. I crack it about this far, and I stick a 20 ai I’m trying to go to a vending machine. I’m like, I want a 20. You know?
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06:22
And the dude’s like, he takes the 20, but he can’t hand me the crack rock back to the cracked window. He’s like, roll the damn window down. And I’m like, my bad. It’s probably like a sliver of soap. Who knows? But that was my first drug ai. First undercover, like, legit.
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06:38
And so what was the protocol? Like, you had to buy the drug and then what do you do?
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06:43
It depends, case by case basis. We may wanna make numerous buys on that corner, try to come in with the jump out boys, they used to call them, and shut that corner down for a while. We may be trying to to make ai on the low level people on the corner selling who are probably most likely users, at least with my experience.
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06:59
So maybe, like, every five cracked rocks they sold, they can peel one for themselves. And maybe we wanna get them, build a case on them, kinda try to climb it up.
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07:10
And then find out who’s the distributor. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Visible. Is your wireless full of stuff you didn’t sign up for, you don’t need, or don’t understand? Visible gives you everything you want from wireless with nothing you don’t. No confusing plans. No hidden fees. No nonsense. With Visible, you get unlimited data, talk, and text powered by Verizon’s five g network, plus unlimited hotspots included.
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07:37
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08:01
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08:16
And that’s that was ai the state and local. We you hit it. Everybody’s a little different, but three buyers, hit them with a search warrant ai of thing, something like that.
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08:26
And, ultimately so when you’re doing this, you’re you’re you’re buying, you’re trying to get a develop some sort of a relationship or an understanding of how this thing goes down. How do you get to who’s selling it to them?
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08:39
Do you
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08:39
have to arrest them first?
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08:40
You can. Can or you can do there’s all kinds of ways, but you could do, like, a wall off. In other words, not let everybody see us, pick you off, you know, so you don’t get burned. Mhmm. Bring you in, talk to you, and this is what we got on you. We’re trying to figure out who it is, and it’s just traditional law enforcement.
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08:55
You’re trying to find more intel and work your way up.
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08:57
And you offer them ai community or something like that?
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09:00
Depends. Some people are some people do it out of the goodness of their heart. Really? Yeah. So I mean, it’s rare, ai, I mean, you can do it. Hey. I’m patriotic. I want to help clean this up. These people are trying to sell me dope. I don’t like them. I can go buy it for you.
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09:13
A lot of times, we’re paying a source, or they could be working off a charge. It could be part of their plea agreement.
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09:21
So this is your first one. You get comfortable doing that. And then how often are you doing this?
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09:26
Oh, I don’t know. I mean, it we could come in. Let’s just say there’s six investigators on Northern or Southern Command Narcotics in Greenville County. You you might be one of my partners and we come in and you go, ai. I got a source. He’s gonna go make a buy tonight. You might hop in the car with him. It just happens. It gives I mean, it’s almost a daily thing.
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09:45
And so you develop your skills doing this. You get real good at being undercover. And then how do you move on to the big boys? How do you move on to biker gangs, Nazis?
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09:54
I got hired by the FBI. Wow. And was it
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09:58
specifically because you were good at undercover shit or no? If you see a picture of
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10:02
me, I had to this is meh. But for the academy, I mean, it’s a cheesy, thin, fuzzy mustache. Can’t go past the crease of your lip ai tight. You gotta get your haircut at the PX in Quantico. It was usually foreign ladies, that that were cutting your hair. It didn’t matter how I’d explained what I wanted, I got the same haircut every time. You take it up a little bit here and not so much here.
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10:25
Like, oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, like, alright. There you go. I guess this
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10:29
is what we’re doing.
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10:30
But one thing I noticed in the at the state level was we would all go back then, the South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy is in Columbia, South Carolina. So we would go there, and get certified. But in your county, I mean, how many ways can I shah I’m in the same county, and you’re going out here making buys?
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10:48
How many times can I change my car, change my outfit, change my facial hair, the hair on my head until everybody starts knowing I’m a narc? Right. You know? Because when you’re in that local environment and, I mean, I’m talking Greenville, South Carolina. Miami might be a little bit different or New York City, but you’re going to court a lot and people are seeing you in court.
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11:09
And then so how do you roll out there? So a lot of it turns into just running sources. To me, I believe developing and running sources is hand in hand with undercover because other than them not being a bonded law enforcement officer, and and I don’t have a felon on my record, but they do.
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11:28
They’re still the ones we’re wiring up and going in to get the evidence. So a lot of it, over the last many years with the, defund the police and the and the black ai, it’s hard to recruit. It’s hard enough to get people to fill the uniform slots. So you really don’t have anybody doing undercover.
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11:46
Most of most of your smaller departments that I’ve taught or talked to or learned from is, they’re just running sources.
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11:55
Really? So this all stopped during defund of the police, sai George Floyd times?
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11:59
Yeah. A lot of it. Yeah. It’s a the pendulum swings. Right? Mhmm. Or it could be that because generations are different these days, people come to ai, and they’ve got felons on their record. And we’re like, bro, you can’t you can’t be a cop. You got a felon on your record. You know?
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12:15
But I remember thinking, wouldn’t it be kinda cool if South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy had all of the certified undercovers in some type of database where it says, hey. Scott’s skill set is biker, you know, riding ai, can go in a biker bar or whatever, strip clubs, this, that, and the other. Maybe Charleston County needs somebody.
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12:34
Wouldn’t that be cool if I could just shoot down there and and make bias for Charleston County, but go back? Then that way, nobody knows me in Charleston County.
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12:41
Right.
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12:41
And when I got in the FBI, that’s ai what they do. You get certified in the FBI bryden you I mean, you can go around the world. So what
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12:48
was your initial job in the FBI?
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12:50
The you are a case agent. When you get hired, you’re the only responsibility you have, really is you’re a case agent. And that means you investigate, you do your own cases. I did that the entire career. Even when I was doing undercover, I was still a case agent. But I, I went through the academy. I got New York City as my first office and New York is the largest office.
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13:15
So they put you kinda like on a rotation. You don’t just go straight to a squad. You’re gonna be like they want you to learn the city. They want you to learn the ins and outs of having a placard and the bus lane and all that stuff, or just how to figure out how to get into the damn Lincoln Tunnel when sai lanes go like that, you know.
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13:32
But eventually, I went through the rotation and I got placed on the Colombian drug squad. So there, then people start learning you were certified undercover at a state level and this, that, and the other. So then they brought me something ai, say, LA takes off a 3,000, and we’re talking, like, 2,001 is 2,000, somewhere in there.
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13:51
So they take off, say, 3,000 pounds of weed in LA, and it was supposed to come to New York. Well, we go with them and say, man, can you send us all the stuff? They’re they’re cutting leads to us saying, hey. It was supposed to go to this address, but we gotta build the exact replica box. And it depends on the US attorney working the case.
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14:10
They may want assistant, United States attorney. They may want to just us deliver it, and that’s good enough. Some may want us to deliver it, pull away, and then they’ve got a hidden switch or something that notifies us when they open it just to make that case tighter. Sai I started doing cameos on stuff like that. And then, and then I landed in undercover, which I don’t really talk about in the book because it’s classified.
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14:31
And we are coming up on twenty five years, which is usually when they declassify them. It’s kind of been outed, but I just don’t talk about it because I don’t wanna end up in the box, the the lie detector and have somebody beat me down. But I landed that undercover. And after about thirty days in San Antonio, I became they gave me another 60 day extension, and I became the primary.
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14:54
And because I was there full time working undercover, they transferred me to
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14:58
the San Antonio Division. So the first undercover gig, what was your, like, what was your job? Like, what were you what were you pretending to do?
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15:07
The classified one, again, is classified.
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15:10
Okay. But
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15:10
I will say this. I was a security guard. Can you imagine being a cop with a cool uniform with a real gun on your hip? And now Ai making it to the Ai, and I’m working third shift as a night at the museum, you know, with a flashlight. Oh, wow. But I wanted to get my foot in the door of the undercover ram.
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15:28
And sometimes it was easier to get a slot in the undercover school if you were already in or slated for an undercover.
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15:37
And so how so you eventually work your way up to probably more and more dangerous and complicated assignments? What This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. When it came time to make a website, there was no question that we would power it with Squarespace. From the intuitive design intelligence that helps to create a bespoke digital identity to the seamless payment options that can help give your customers more ways to pay or the fact that you can measure your end to end online performance with powerful website and seller analytics.
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16:08
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16:26
Happens, at least in my my experience, what happened with me is I get certified. Our certification school is very, very intense. I mean, I don’t know what they’re doing now, but I’m 99.9% sure it’s still very intense. It’s two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation. Not gonna give away all the scenarios and stuff for trade ram reasons, but let’s just say that, I got certified in 02/2002.
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16:52
In 02/2003, I started role playing and assistant at the school. I probably missed a handful of schools up until the day I retired. Never a hundred percent graduation rate. I don’t I don’t know of any % graduation graduation rate before I got into the program. And it’s not hazing. You get 20 slots.
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17:11
So it’s four groups of ai. And generally, it goes ai you get some trainings during the day and then we’re running scenarios and we’re putting you into live stuff. But day three and four when you’re really hurting for sleep, I’ve seen people nut out and I and minor in psych.
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17:29
I didn’t think I would see that because some of them Ai might know. Maybe we were on the SWAT team together. Maybe I know you as a case agent and you’re squared away, but you go to the UC school and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in, one of my buddies walked in.
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17:48
He looked like he’d been raped by a tribe. I I walk he got walked in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail. I’m like, are you okay? And, some people, it’s just I would say that the reason the training is like that. It’s not hazing.
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18:06
It’s just so we don’t lose anybody. We try to make it as real as you can.
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18:09
Well, you gotta find out who’s gonna crack.
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18:11
Yeah. And think of this. In a real scenario, not all undercovers are like this. But in the ones I would usually do, there’s gonna be a lot of times when no sleep. My skill set led me not to Wall Street. It didn’t lead me to the yacht. It didn’t lead me to the mafia club unless I was standing in the corner and I was muscle for the mafia guy.
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18:31
Meh me to the woods and what you already mentioned, crazy crazy ass meth heads or just ideologies. So I get certified and then I go back and role play and that’s when people start ai of seeing and you’re ai I mean, you’re trying to make a name for yourself. I wasn’t getting calls because on paper Ai a white guy with a foreign language.
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18:53
But about every week or so, I would call the undercover unit and be like, hey. You got anything? It’s sai big country. You got anything more medium now. But, ai know, I I could even be a little country at this point, you know. But I was like, hey.
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19:04
You got anything for any rednecks with ram foreign language? And I just wear them down until they’d laugh, and then they finally ask me to come to the school. And once you do the school, now there’s saloni undercovers coming back. And they’re not only there to role play and to run a school.
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19:18
They’re also looking for undercovers for cases in their own divisions. And that’s where I kinda started getting getting into some things.
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19:25
It has to be one of the most exciting kinds of law enforcement.
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19:29
For me, absolutely.
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19:30
It has to be so crazy.
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19:32
And so we’re meh I mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type a personality, we’re adrenaline junkies. Yeah. I mean
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19:40
That’s gotta be a a gigantic rush.
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19:42
Yeah.
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19:46
They’re onto us. I’ve talked to a few guys that have done that kind of work, and they always speak of it with sort of fond memories of how crazy it is. It’s weird. It’s ai it’s a very particular type of person that would wanna put themselves in that highly stressful adrenaline charge situation where, you know, any mistake and they find out who you really are, you’re dead.
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20:05
Could be. Yeah. Yeah. Now you meh be second guess ai career.
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20:11
Seems like it worked out.
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20:12
I’m gonna ai it’s cash now. I’ll call cash. Hey. You think I ai come back in? Yeah.
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20:18
What was the first one that you got? The first assignment that you got where, like, oh, boy. This is big leagues.
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20:23
That was the Outlaw’s case. I’d already done some undercovers, again, in the FBI. I’ve done several street level things or numerous whatever, at the state level. But I I was doing a a couple of cases in the FBI, and they were smaller. You know? Maybe it was supposed to be interstate transportation of stolen goods, and it turned into a public corruption case.
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20:44
But when I landed the outlaws case, that was that was my first big and probably one of the biggest I did.
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20:51
So how does that go? How how did that start?
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20:54
I’m not a smart meh. So that’s how it started. Why do you do this, Scott? I go, I’m not smart. I am stupid. I’m a glutton for punishment. And my last name is Payne. You know? In that case, they did they’ll do canvases. A lot of times so I was an undercover coordinator. Every division has an undercover coordinator. So you are the front line on all things covert and you’re the liaison between headquarters in that field office.
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21:21
So if I had a case come up, I may already know you or whoever and be like, hey. I’ll just put a text out to you. You interested? Or we may just send out a canvas, and then a canvas comes from headquarters and goes to every undercover coordinator. And if it gets to the point to where no certified undercovers have responded, then they’ll do, like, a bureau wide canvas and see what we can get.
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21:42
I can’t remember exactly if somebody called me on that one. I’m pretty sure. I don’t remember that Outlaw as being a canvas, but it possibly could have been.
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21:50
Will you fit the bill?
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21:52
Yeah. Yeah. You look like a outlaw biker. It depends. Slash Ai, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It it depends. See, that’s what a lot of people I’ll get off on a tangent. But so throughout my career, my my mentors, my peers, people I’ve been blessed to mentor, Some people come up in the office, very good friends, unbelievable agents.
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22:11
I mean, Brainiacs, awesome. They’re like, meh, I can never do what you do. My beard would be down to here, whatever, tatted up. And I’m like, well, don’t do me. What do you what’s your background? And they’re like, well, I was an accountant. And I’m like, with who?
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22:25
Before before they’ve been I was accountant with Disney or whatever. I’m I was this. I was a lawyer. Will you be you? I can I’m not somebody’s probably gonna be pissed because they’re gonna say it’s trade ram. But listen. I could bring you in, and you just walk into the group.
Speaker: 0
22:42
I’m in the primary. I’ve already laid all this stuff out. It’s a chess game. We’re always trying to stay four or five moves ahead or master of puppets. I’m just trying to connect with people and work work the scene.
Speaker: 0
22:53
But you come in and you dress as an accountant and you talk like an accountant and then you walk out, you’re you. It’s real. Right.
Speaker: 1
23:01
So So there’s roles for all sorts of different types of personalities and life skills.
Speaker: 0
23:06
Yeah. And I’m like, you you might see something where they say, I need a person this tall that speaks this language that does this and knows this, but what are you trying to do? Essentially, the FBI works everything. And if if a target if we have predication or predicated target or there’s information coming in about somebody doing something nefarious, if we sana do an undercover, how do how do I get close to you?
Speaker: 0
23:32
I mean, what do you find attractive? Usually, it’s money in the criminal world. It’s green. Right? Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
23:37
You can see the Mexican mafia working with the Arya Brotherhood of Texas. They hate each other, but they love green. And one needs guns and one needs dope and, you know, vatsal in the criminal world. But for that case, I went up, I got interviewed, by, of course, the FBI. There were task forces there. DEA was there. ATF was there.
Speaker: 0
24:01
And they had been working this case for a while. And generally, this is the way it would work for me on these long term type undercovers. The case team’s been working this for a long time. They a year plus. They’ve been building intelligence.
Speaker: 0
24:14
Now they’ve got some evidence already, maybe a seizure of dope here, report of a carjacking here. But to get that airtight case and to find out what’s really going on, now they’re at the point to where they can use the investigative technique, which is undercover. And, we came up with a plan, and, and then I went I went in cold.
Speaker: 0
24:36
I tried to bump them, as we say, cold bump, but, I went into a bar that they frequented. I went there when they weren’t there. It was a strip club. I used to bounce at strip clubs. In the book, Ai make a a joke, because I call them a gentleman’s club, but then I say that’s an oxymoron because Right.
Speaker: 0
24:55
I’m like, everyone I’ve been in, there’s not a lot of gentlemen in there, and that includes me back in the whatever days they were. But I knew how they work. So I went in there and I just started hanging out. And Ai of course, this accident in Boston, Massachusetts, I’m getting noticed as soon as I start talking. Alright. Where the hell are you from?
Speaker: 0
25:13
And I kinda worked that and started working the bar doing what I do. Not everybody has their own way. And let me say this since it’s at the beginning. Listen. There for me, I want people to know it comes from a humble spot. There are men and women out there that have done way more undercovers than me.
Speaker: 0
25:32
They have been through more harrowing things than me. I already sai, I’ve got meh. I’ve got peers. I’ve got people I’ve been blessed to mentor. Some of them don’t wanna talk. Some of them haven’t had the opportunity. So just know it’s coming from a a a love ai of place.
Speaker: 1
25:46
Got it. So when you say you worked in the bar, what do you mean? You just, like, making friends with people there?
Speaker: 0
25:51
What I did last night here in Austin. Ai in.
Speaker: 1
25:55
Is it like old habits ai hard? Yeah.
Speaker: 0
25:57
I just walk in and ai, hey, man. How’s it going? Yeah.
Speaker: 1
25:59
You know? It’s like catch and release. You’re like pretending.
Speaker: 0
26:02
Yeah. It’s still working your meh. Working your gab.
Speaker: 1
26:04
Yeah. That’s interesting.
Speaker: 0
26:05
So
Speaker: 1
26:05
you’re always working your skill set even though you’re not on the job anymore.
Speaker: 0
26:08
Yeah. I know. Ai? I love connecting with people. I don’t care whether you’re smart, stupid, big, you know, skinny, fat, any ethnicity, doesn’t matter. And that’s one thing I do miss about the job. I meh getting called out at two in the morning for the craziest of the crazies.
Speaker: 0
26:23
And you show up to do an interview and Ai and essentially, I befriend you and you either confess or we find out you really weren’t doing anything. I do remember one night, this wasn’t undercover, but they called me because towards the end of my career, I was doing nothing but mainly domestic terrorism.
Speaker: 0
26:39
And they called meh. They go, we got one down here. He’s a white supremacist. He’s assaulted a cop, this, that, and the other. Well, I get down there.
Speaker: 0
26:45
It’s like three, four in the morning now. I did my spiel. I’m not screaming at the guy. Meh, you need something to drink. Here, man, you look cold.
Speaker: 0
26:51
Here’s a coke. So tell me about what happened. I’m not here for this other stuff. I’m just and I start talking. Well, somewhere in there, I’m like, okay.
Speaker: 0
26:58
This guy’s not a white supremacist. He’s a sovereign citizen. And he’s just anti government. Pro sheriff elected, but anti government. Sovereign citizens, I really can’t stand to deal with them. It’s it’s just it’s like absurdity to the max.
Speaker: 1
27:13
Can you explain sovereign citizen to people? They
Speaker: 0
27:15
you see it all over you. They they don’t like, they get pulled over and they don’t I don’t need a driver’s license. I’m in commerce. I’m in transit. If they touch you, well, that’s rape. They think they’ve got a hundred and I don’t I’m gonna forget it, but it’s ai a hundred and 75, 2 hundred 50 thousand dollars being held by the government for each person.
Speaker: 0
27:33
It’s crazy. They’ll start putting leans on people. People put on training. So when it first started happening, a cop pulls you over and they see ai this thing signed in blood and the paperwork looks legit, but, hell, I never got that training. Is this legit? You know, I guess I can’t pull this guy over.
Speaker: 0
27:49
Then it then you start diving in, you start getting the training and you go, these people are full of crap. Ram then you see the cops popping the window and dragging them out of the car. You’re still going. But this guy was a tyler citizen. He had a brother.
Speaker: 0
28:01
And we’re we’re talking and and he’s telling me this stuff and the constitution and the declaration of independence. And I’m like, yeah. Yeah. And I said, what but how do you know that’s what the forefathers meant when they ai that? And he said, because I was there, son. Oh, boy.
Speaker: 0
28:18
And that’s when I went, oh, he’s not just a sovereign citizen. He’s a kooky. He’s crazy. Why did it take me this long to find out?
Speaker: 1
28:27
Said I was there? Yeah.
Speaker: 0
28:28
I was it it like this. He goes, because I didn’t even miss a beat. Ai go, how do you know? Because I was there, son. And I went there. Oh, you’ve been reincarnated about four or five times. Oh, man. Ai I’m like, and and and you got this life this time? You got the one you’re living right now this time?
Speaker: 1
28:45
What are you talking to me at four in
Speaker: 0
28:46
the morning? You look like you’ve had a rough life. I mean, Sai would you know, if I was gonna buy into, you know, reincarnation, I’d wanna come back as maybe, like, my mom’s dog or something like that. You know? Something cool. Yeah. Something meh this great ai. Sleep, eat, and play. But, so back to the, the outlaws thing.
Speaker: 0
29:06
I go in and I’m just shooting the shit. I’m just working the bar. I’m telling jokes. You get a crowd of people around you and that’s no that’s not trade crap. I mean, that’s just me. Right?
Speaker: 0
29:15
And, by the way, for the listeners who may not know, little intervention. If you buy all your friends all their drinks and their food all the time, they’re probably not your friends. You know what I mean? Yeah. I got all kinds of friends. Those aren’t your friends. Right. Stop paying. They won’t come around anymore. But that’s kinda what I was doing.
Speaker: 0
29:37
And then now we get to the night to where the outlaws, are leaving their clubhouse. And for the listeners that don’t know in the biker world, especially one percenter world, there’s a mandatory meeting every week at a clubhouse and they refer to it as church. So they’re leaving church. I get the surveillance team telling me, hey, man. We’re leaving church. I’m like, cool. I’m at the bar already the foxy lady, in Brockton, Massachusetts.
Speaker: 0
29:58
And That’s a rough town. Right? And, marvelous Marvin Hackler. Yeah. You sure? For a jog and I meh brothers. Ai get I get home. I’m Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
30:08
I’m like, yeah. But, they tyler me they’re coming. Now the intelligence that they had provided me when we started getting this case together, I was like, hey, man. Can they wear their colors, their cuts, their leathers in the bar? And they said, no. They don’t allow that.
Speaker: 0
30:21
And I’m thinking in my mind, well, that makes my approach easier because I’m not a tattooed guy watching naked women listening to heavy metal and drinking next to a guy who’s watching naked women and heavy metal drinking. They had that part wrong because about thirteen, fifteen outlaws come walking into the bar, take the whole back bar. They’re all wearing their colors.
Speaker: 0
30:41
Sai that does that change my approach? Yeah. I Ai think it does. Yeah. Unless you want me to go up.
Speaker: 0
30:47
And as I say, when I’m teaching this, I go up and I ai, what do you mean second? I go, hey. You you boys ride? Will you nothing? No?
Speaker: 0
30:56
Alright. Fine. I’ll just I’m a go back on the other side of the bar. Please don’t beat my ass. So I just was being loud and boisterous. It’s me.
Speaker: 0
31:06
That’s what I do. It doesn’t always work for undercovers. Some people don’t like it, but it’s my personality.
Speaker: 1
31:11
Are you allowed to get drunk?
Speaker: 0
31:14
Boy. That’s a tricky question. Yes. I can drink. But here’s the thing. Let’s say that outlaws case. That was two years. So there’s two years of recordings of you seeing me turn a jack and coke up. Right? I was I’m sana. Even though I look and sound like trash on paper, I’m pretty tight. And I wanted to be good.
Speaker: 0
31:34
I wanted to always get better and be more well rounded, so I would watch. And even if I caught myself at five in the morning, six in the morning slurring, as I’m listening to it, I’d be like, dadgum it, man. And then I’d listen, and within five minutes, I’d be back. Because you gotta remember, all that could be played in front of a jury. Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
31:52
And if I’m on there slurring and saying a bunch of stupid stuff Right. I mean, how does that affect my articulation Right. For what I was doing? But was my alcohol tolerance very high?
Speaker: 1
32:02
You know, you’re a big dude. Yeah. Ai put some away.
Speaker: 0
32:05
I did. Kinda still do. I tell Ai tyler you what the what put me on a three month time out was CPI. Really? Yeah. Because you go down there and you get the,
Speaker: 1
32:16
symptoms explained it. We’re talking about the cellular performance institute that, my friends, run down in Tijuana.
Speaker: 0
32:22
Absolutely. Great, great facility. I will tell you the my previous hospital visit before I went to Tijuana, I almost died. I had a hip replacement, and it got sepsis I got sepsis, and I almost died. Sai fourteen days after my total hip replacement, quickest surgery I’ve ever had, about thirty minutes, chop the femur off, drill it, pop. They’re walking you out.
Speaker: 0
32:43
You’re still very high on all your they’re like, if you can walk, you can go home. And I’m like, I can’t walk. But, apparently, something happened. They got infected. So fourteen days later, I had sepsis, and they got it under control, and they went back in and cleaned me all out.
Speaker: 0
32:58
I had two hip surgeries in fourteen days. But fast. So now I’m going to Tijuana, knowing what I know about working the bryden, knowing what even though I’m friends with Ed and Scotty, the owners, and I’m like, I’m like, man, now I’m going by myself. Best hospital stay I’ve ever had. It’s phenomenal. It’s phenomenal. It’s an amazing place. Phenomenal.
Speaker: 0
33:19
And what I but what got me stopped cut back on my drinking is I got down there. You can’t drink the week before, especially if you’re getting the IV stem cells because they travel through your body and they grab stuff. So if you drink and it sees your liver working harder, it’s gonna go to your liver. So you’re kinda wasting the the shots.
Speaker: 0
33:35
I knew I couldn’t drink the week before Ai got there. And they go, yes. You can’t drink for three more months. And I went, three months? And they’re like I said, damn, nobody told me that shit. And I was like and I immediately went, Ai need to cut back anyway. That’s fine. You know?
Speaker: 0
33:49
But, yeah, tolerance was high for
Speaker: 1
33:52
the You have to be drinking with these folks when you’re hanging out with them.
Speaker: 0
33:56
You don’t have to. But this will this will go back to an explanation of the undercover school. If you’re gonna drink, we want you to drink in a controlled environment when you’re tired because we want you to see how you feel. Mhmm. We also wanna see how you behave when you’re extremely tired and you’re plastered. Right? So you have to know that.
Speaker: 0
34:17
You know, in other words, you don’t wanna find out in the middle of the clubhouse that you can’t handle your shit. Right. Sai, yeah, I I, you can drink, and but you’re being recorded. So be be weary about weary about it. What about drug use? This is what I’m getting.
Speaker: 0
34:38
Is this tradecraft or not? Maybe this is the easiest way to say it. If I believe my life is in danger and, like, literally, I’m getting ready to die, I’ll I will snort the lacquer finish off of this damn table. And then I’ll be like, is that is that all you got? You want me to do some more? Right.
Speaker: 1
35:00
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Speaker: 1
35:19
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35:45
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Speaker: 1
36:13
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Speaker: 0
36:23
And then I need to get to the team. I need to get out. I need to get to the case team, and I need to get to an emergency room to make sure I’m not vatsal bryden, especially today with fentanyl and stuff. But that’s that’s ai of the general rule. Ai would say it’s probably not a good idea for you to do drugs.
Speaker: 0
36:40
Just without answering it completely, let me give you this. You’re going to trial. We’ve got a two year case against you. And I’m up here articulating what I did. It’s in my documents. It’s in the recordings, and we have built this case. Usually, with undercover cases, in my experience, the evidence is so overwhelming.
Speaker: 0
37:04
The only thing the defense can can claim is entrapment, which you should be able to shoot that down pretty quick if you’ve done your due diligence, or they try to make you look like a piece of trash on the stand. So imagine if they’re saying, well, he did dope with us. You need to be able to articulate, did you? Why did you? That’s more movie stuff.
Speaker: 0
37:23
It does happen on, on levels, and I wish it didn’t, but it happens on levels where people don’t have training. And that’s that’s sad because there have been plenty of people, let’s just use biker gangs, from law enforcement, from local small department all the way up to feds that have infiltrated biker gangs that have patched and gotten their colors.
Speaker: 0
37:43
But the cases went to crap. They lost themselves. They lost their marriage. They became addicted to drugs. So we shouldn’t be there’s no case worth that.
Speaker: 0
37:52
It’s probably that’s that’s the best way to say it. There’s no case worth you getting addicted to drugs or endangering yourself. Just walk.
Speaker: 1
37:58
So what is the dance of getting to the bar, becoming a regular, and then eventually getting to know these guys?
Speaker: 0
38:07
So that first night, I’m being loud and boisterous, and they did say that there was one particular member who loved to be the center of attention, and he loved to be surrounded by big dudes. Take that for what you want. I don’t know. I didn’t dive too deep into that one, but, when you say hang out with big dudes We were close.
Speaker: 0
38:27
Why is there a jar of Vaseline out here? What kind of party is this?
Speaker: 1
38:32
What’s with the cameras?
Speaker: 0
38:36
Hey, Scott. Have a drink of this before you come in here and sign this NDA.
Speaker: 1
38:39
Yeah. What?
Speaker: 0
38:40
What? Sai I I start befriending him, and I’m being loud. I said, let me take it back. I’m being loud. This guy did, like, attention. He sees it, and he’s like, hey. Hey. Where the f are you from? So I fire some stupid comedy thing back. We start going back and forth because he’s already asked the bartenders, who the hell is that guy? Oh, that’s Tex. He comes up here all the time from Texas.
Speaker: 0
39:07
I come up here all the time. It’s human nature. It’s like, you know, you caught a fish this big ai the tenth person you’re telling. Man, there was, like, 10 of them. Right. Had to fight them off with my pinkies. But I get called over.
Speaker: 0
39:20
I don’t know who sent a drink to who first, but he calls me over and just starts shooting the shit with me. And from then, he pretty much invites me to one of their Northeast regionals, called Lobster Fest held in Brockton at that clubhouse, and we were kinda on the way. There was a guy who was not patched, and his name was Scott as well. I said the name of the book. It’s all it’s all adjudicated.
Speaker: 0
39:45
It’s all in the court, proceedings and stuff, but, Scott Town was his name, and he was a big dude. He was jacked. And he came in. I remember going to the bathroom. And, again, I think I’m doing pretty good. Like, I’m I’m I’m in great shah. I’m being me. I’m talking, shooting the shah.
Speaker: 0
40:02
Ai hanging out too much. I walk back over, play a little, you know, you come chase me ai of thing. So I go to the bathroom and nobody’s in there. And for the listeners that don’t know men’s bathrooms and bars, usually at the urinal, there’s some kind of box, plexiglass with some kind of ads like, hey.
Speaker: 0
40:18
This person’s coming next speak. That stuff. So as I’m peeing, I’m looking at the reflection and I see the door swing open and I see this jack dude’s got, it must have made an impression because in the report, I even say he’s wearing, like, a gray shirt with black trim. He’s completely sleeved out and I’m getting all this from, you know, sleeved out on left arm, huge earrings.
Speaker: 0
40:39
And I watch him, and I see him kinda ducking and looking under stalls and hitting the doors to make sure nobody else is in the bathroom. I’m acting nonchalant, but then I see him walk up to meh. And for that split second, I thought I’m getting jacked. I’m gonna Ai gonna get jumped right here.
Speaker: 0
40:55
But he ends up just asking me, what brings you to Massachusetts? I think what happened is they sent him in there to press me. And this is a good lesson. Don’t bluff. If you bluff, whatever you say today, you might be still in that case a year and a half, two years later.
Speaker: 0
41:13
It needs to match what you said on day one, or you could be slipping up and getting found out. But Ai said where Ai been around, Ai, grew up in South Carolina, all this stuff. He’d been to all those places because he used to travel the country fighting dogs. So if I’d have been bluffing, I’d have been done right there.
Speaker: 0
41:31
And then from there, we start building relationships. Now I’m trying to ingratiate, and I’m getting invited to parties. They ai story was that I was a site survey specialist, and I traveled the country for investors out of Texas. And I would look at properties that they wanna buy, whether it meh whether it’s residential or mercantile and, you know, pull stuff from the clerk of court and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: 0
41:54
But as it usually does in the criminal world, it came out that I also did some crimes ai. And that’s when we started getting into, they were doing insurance fraud first with me. They would report vehicle stolen and then sell them to me for a stolen ai. And the story was, since I was based out of McAllen, Texas, Ai just using the facts, that we were moving vehicles to Mexico, in trade for whatever.
Speaker: 0
42:21
Guns, duck, most ai, duck, but whatever. And that’s how we started. And then from there, now you start gaining more trust. You start hanging out more. You become tighter.
Speaker: 0
42:31
You’re building these relationships. And then it’s like, hey. We just carjacked somebody. We got this car. We took this dude at gunpoint.
Speaker: 0
42:40
This thing’s got LoJack or OnStar or whatever was around in there. We know how to get rid of it. Don’t worry about it. I got it. Have a truck driver show up.
Speaker: 0
42:47
We load all the stolen equipment, vehicles, whatever, on the truck, and they thought they were going to Meh, but they were just going to a warehouse somewhere in Massachusetts.
Speaker: 1
42:56
So you never actually brought cars to Mexico?
Speaker: 0
42:59
No.
Speaker: 1
43:00
So when you would do that, we just get cash from the FBI to, like, represent?
Speaker: 0
43:06
Yeah. I mean, they would I would pay them. Yeah. A stolen price usually. Stolen is usually 20 to 25% of what it would normally cost, you know, because it’s hot. And that just started gaining trust. I mean, the we’ve, like I said, there was other undercovers that would help. We call this cameos. If if you’re the primary undercover, that’s you. That’s your case.
Speaker: 0
43:28
A secondary undercover might mean you come in to meet me, but you stay with me for a couple of days and we go out and meet bad guys together. That’s gonna be a secondary role. If you’re coming in as a truck driver, you just pull in the parking lot, we’re loading up stuff, that’s a cameo.
Speaker: 0
43:39
And I’ve done many cameos for other undercovers as well. You know, just rolling to town, do a deal, whatever.
Speaker: 1
43:46
So no one’s ever trying to go with you to Mexico to make sure that all this is happening?
Speaker: 0
43:50
Not on that case. But if they did want to, we would have to work that out. We would have to have that kind of because Ai come I I I took this from a a buddy of mine who who Ai helped certify as an undercover. And I just thought it was a great way to say it is, look, at the end of the day, we want that target going to bed thinking ai was a good day.
Speaker: 0
44:12
You don’t want them laying in bed going, man, there’s something went right about that guy. Right. Something something’s not right because you want it to be as real as possible. Right. So is it was it a fact that the cartels at that point in time loved four by four v eights and Harley Davidsons? Absolutely.
Speaker: 0
44:30
Did they get stolen all the time on the border? Absolutely. So that’s that’s factual stuff that’s real. So now I’m a guy they they they eventually learned and believed that I was a high ranking high ranking member of an international theft ring, and that’s what we were doing.
Speaker: 0
44:48
And then through those through those, then they start stealing vehicles, which I gotta be careful of. I can’t say, hey. I sana I wanna brand new f three fifty Right. Quad cab because then they go steal it. Somewhat of entrapment. I just led them to go steal that car.
Speaker: 0
45:01
Right? But over the next year or so, we’re getting more and more stuff. I buy dope from them. Ai I said, carjackings, we learned of them certain members extorting people ai the good old mafia days, you know, extorting businesses, home invasions. But again, for the listeners listening, to hear that at a bar and say, yeah. We robbed that house. Is that enough to charge somebody? Probably not.
Speaker: 0
45:29
Is an assistant United States attorney gonna be like, yeah. That’s enough. No. We’re gonna have to dive in more and find out and meh it out and get that evidence.
Speaker: 1
45:36
Wow. Stressful shit. Slightly. Getting stressed out just thinking about you doing all these things.
Speaker: 0
45:42
Me too.
Speaker: 1
45:42
Sai, like, how how long is this relationship while you’re building a case? Like, how how much time are you spending with these people?
Speaker: 0
45:50
I was for that case, I was probably up there every three weeks for a good week, but then there’s constant contact when I’m not there.
Speaker: 1
45:57
Next messages.
Speaker: 0
45:58
Yeah. Well, Nextel’s were big with them at that point in time. So yeah. Church.
Speaker: 1
46:02
Oh, the that’s the Church. Yeah. The old days, the walkie talkie one.
Speaker: 0
46:04
Radio. Yeah. Yeah. It was a
Speaker: 1
46:06
little bit funny. People forgot about them walkie talkies.
Speaker: 0
46:08
Yeah, man. Yeah. It was you know, it sai crazy about that. You could key up and talk to somebody in Japan, and it’d be Chris or Chris. But if you ai to call somebody, it was the worst connection ever.
Speaker: 1
46:17
Yeah. They were terrible phones.
Speaker: 0
46:18
But that’s what they used, and that’s what I got. I was mirroring them. But, yes. Sai you build those relationships, and it depends. Each case is different. But I will say that the tightest relationship I had on that case was Scot Town. It was absolutely scary how similar we were, and how tight we were.
Speaker: 0
46:38
Now, again, he didn’t know I was Scott Payne, FBI undercover, but he knew I was Scott Calloway. And he knew I mean, it it would be to the point to where if we were going out to do an op that evening, operation, they wouldn’t put it in the operations plan, but they would ask, hey.
Speaker: 0
46:55
Is Scott Towne gonna be there tonight? I’m like, yeah. And and even the FBI cover teams and stuff would be like, good. Because they knew that he cared enough about me. He’d take a bullet from me and protect me and vice vatsal, really, for Esme and Scott Calloway.
Speaker: 0
47:07
And, I mean, we finished each other’s sentences. We thought the same other than the criminal stuff, and some faith belief systems. But, yeah, that was my tightest. And the second one over the two years was probably a guy whose road name was Clothesline and he was the enforcer for the Taunton chapter.
Speaker: 0
47:27
And then after that, it probably would have been the president, which was Joe Dawgs, and then it just trickles down from there.
Speaker: 1
47:32
Do you have conflicted feelings when you develop, like, these relationships with these guys?
Speaker: 0
47:36
I did. You can put on as much training. You can get the training. You can be a part of it. I’m still human. You know? Now was I to a point to where I’m gonna go, I’m leaving the Bryden I’m gonna become a warbler center.
Speaker: 1
47:53
Some people do, though.
Speaker: 0
47:54
Right? I know some people do, but I wouldn’t there. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t do that.
Speaker: 1
47:57
How often does that happen?
Speaker: 0
48:00
Well, I don’t in the FBI, probably not a lot, but but those cases are well known if something happens like that. Somebody goes rogue ai, you know, your breach story and all these people selling secrets and getting people killed. Yeah. I I wasn’t there. I nor would I be. I wouldn’t be. Ai, I would like to think if I did have a one percenter club, nobody would ever infiltrate it, though.
Speaker: 1
48:19
Well, you probably understand how it works. I’m just kidding. But even then
Speaker: 0
48:23
Yeah. I know. I mean,
Speaker: 1
48:24
you’re dealing with ragamuffin people. Like,
Speaker: 0
48:27
you don’t
Speaker: 1
48:27
even know. I know who’s
Speaker: 0
48:29
But those arya, like again, those are my kinds of people. When we’re riding around and we’re people are wrestling each other over tables. This is my favorite move. Bang. I mean, at one point, I’m driving down the road with Scottown in a snowstorm. And I’m driving, and I’m like this on my hand.
Speaker: 0
48:44
He reaches over out of nowhere and breaks my pinky. Just pop. And this sucker’s ai 90 degrees. And I’m ai, mother I ai over. I slammed on the bryden well, I mean, snow. But come to the stop, and I go, what the f is your problem?
Speaker: 0
48:58
And he’s looking at me and he’s going, I don’t know what he was on, but he was in an evil space. Right? And I’m looking at him and I’m going, look. If you wanna effing fight, we’ll stand bryden the damn snowstorm right now and we’ll go at it. I know you think you can whip me, but maybe I can whip you. And I saw it wasn’t going anywhere and he was getting more and more angry.
Speaker: 0
49:17
And Ai just looked at him and I went, he’s an animal right now. I’m gonna diffuse. I’m gonna deescalate, which is really what you should be doing as an undercover. And I look over and I go, hey. Hey.
Speaker: 0
49:29
After I pop my finger in, I go, hey. Sniff. Smell. Good boy. Friend. Friend. Like that. I’m trying to calm you down, then he starts laughing.
Speaker: 0
49:39
But that’s the ai of stuff you get. But to me, even no different than being in college, playing ball.
Speaker: 1
49:44
Hanging out with psychos.
Speaker: 0
49:45
Yeah. When you’re there in the month of August and nobody is there, it’s just twenty four seven football.
Speaker: 1
49:50
What was it like when you eventually brought that guy down?
Speaker: 0
49:53
It was sad. It was sad because in that case, there was a point where I I had a young daughter, and his youngest daughter was roughly the same age as my daughter. So I’m not at home with my kid, but I’m in his house bouncing his daughter on my lap. And and, you know, that it when they’re developing, as a human being, they’re at that stage, they’re kinda making the same noises, moving the same way.
Speaker: 0
50:21
It was it was surreal. And then I remember thinking, meh, I mean, I really like this guy, you know. He likes to drink. I like to drink. He likes to fight. I like to fight. He likes to ride. I like to ride. He likes to live. I like to live. I like to live.
Speaker: 0
50:33
I go, man, we finish each other’s things. Everything I already said. And then I look over at his refrigerator and and I see all these stickers and magnets and stuff and my eyes just settled in on WWSD. And for the listeners that don’t know, WWJD is very common in the Christ follower Christian community. What would Jesus do? You see the bracelets all the ai.
Speaker: 0
50:54
And I look over and sai, WWSD. What would Satan do? And I looked and I went, oh, yeah. We’re not the same. We’re not the same. I’m back.
Speaker: 0
51:01
I used to we’d be in the clubhouse sana everybody’s yelling there, like, you know, if for the again, people that don’t know, whatever your biker club name is, you usually get these same sayings. So for the outlaws, it’s outlaws forever. Forever outlaws. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God forgives. Outlaws don’t. Yeah. Yeah. It’s better to be first in hell than second in heaven.
Speaker: 0
51:24
And I’m like, what? What? T, what’s
Speaker: 1
51:30
Hang on.
Speaker: 0
51:30
I’m like, I’m not saying I’m a chalk walking Christian because I’m pretending to be a one percenter, you know, evil meh. But what story have you ever heard of hell where it was good? I mean, are we you helping me out here? So, yeah, it’s it’s a crazy bunch. But on that case, one of the biggest things that happened is, we’ve been going for a year and a half and doing all these things. They’ve carjacked stuff.
Speaker: 0
51:53
We’re getting more and more evidence. There was a Hells Angel president murdered, in Connecticut Bridgeport, Connecticut. Terrible town. Yeah. Terrible town. Is it? I don’t Oh, Bridgeport’s dangerous.
Speaker: 0
52:05
So so Bridgeport, Connecticut. And, the other Hells Angel that was shot didn’t die, and he was able to give a description of a green truck with Florida plates. We knew at that time that Florida Outlaws were up in that area because they were hanging out with our targets. And even when I would call, I’d be like, hey, man. I was like, man, it’s hot here right now. If you come out, you need to be strapping.
Speaker: 0
52:28
I’m like, well, I don’t wanna fly with it. I don’t wanna put a, you know, bull’s eye on my back back then. Ai like, hey. If I show up, meh, we’ll give you a vest. We’ll give you a gun kind of thing. So we’re doing all vatsal.
Speaker: 0
52:38
And now we get to the point to where we can all the predications there, they you they’ve done ai. The case team has been doing a wiretap. They know that there’s drug deals going on. They’re doing surveillance. And now we’re to the point to where, we can introduce that I used to be in the dope game as well.
Speaker: 0
52:56
My story was that the reason I got out of it and only did the stolen stuff was because some of my peeps got popped because the heat was getting close. So I I pulled chocks and I was out. And all I do now is move stolen equipment down because it’s a lot less, the way I explained it, it was less likely for law enforcement to catch me.
Speaker: 0
53:19
And and then they would ask, you know, well, how come a white guy is not cut out by all these Mexicans you’re working with? And I go because I’m the gringo that has the contact at the port of entry and the contacts at the checkpoints to pay them $15 to turn their head for two minutes and let our stuff go through.
Speaker: 0
53:34
And that was really happening on the border, and I knew that because I was on the border working it. Again, real things, you’re just you’re just putting them into your story. But I now let them know it took a long time. I don’t put words in their mouth, but I started laying bread crumbs over weeks and months that I did used to be in the dope game.
Speaker: 0
53:54
And of course, Joe Dawg is the president. I mean, the first time I met him and he said, where are you from? I said, Macau in Texas on the border. His next question was, how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for? And I went, well, if we were needing predication, I think he just gave it.
Speaker: 0
54:10
But his business skills weren’t that great because I’d say, look, meh, about 13 grands which you could get a kilo for then on the border. He said, meh, so if I got 10 of them up here for 13, I’m like, no. That’s not gonna cost 13 up here. There’s a reason a tequila cost 25 to 30 grand up here because somebody has to get it from the border to here. Right.
Speaker: 0
54:28
Now if you wanna drop down the border and buy 10 for 13 a piece, and you risk taking them back over, but, so we let it be known, that that I had some cartel of course, they knew I had cartel contacts, and we started introducing those. Some ram undercovers came in, unbelievable people, and we ended up doing what some refer to as a drug protection.
Speaker: 0
54:50
There was gonna be a drug shipment coming in and my crew was gonna be delivering it to another crew and we needed protection. And we did it in Brockton, and several outlaws hopped in on it. The issue was this, at least one of the big issues. Pretty much that case, I had a great time. Yes. It’s violent and my my mentality was changing.
Speaker: 0
55:12
There is a podcast that’s a it’s a series that’s gonna be coming out, with the book. And they actually interview one of the, task force officers who was over me on that case on the Outlaws. And I remember him calling me. He’s like, hey. What sai? What can I I said, tell him the truth? I said, I wanna know I wanna know what you were thinking. I know what I was thinking.
Speaker: 0
55:32
And it was really, really surreal to hear him talking about, he could see my personality changing. He could see and ai the FBI office might be saying, we want him to patch. And he was over here fighting going, hell no. We’re getting everything we need now. If he patches, then they can order him to do shit. And it was just really cool to hear that.
Speaker: 0
55:50
But, essentially for the case, it was meh, an FBI case agent, and two task force officers. We had detective Joe Cummins from Brockton PD, sergeant Higginbottom from the Massachusetts state troopers, and then an agent with the FBI and that was it. I mean, they would add some here and there but for two years that was it. It was us.
Speaker: 0
56:08
So now we get to this point to where we’re like, man, let’s do this drug protection. And the assistant United States attorney was like, hey. If you’re gonna be at the clubhouse or did did they talk about this at the clubhouse? We’re like, yeah. And he goes, well, that’d be awesome if we could get that recorded because it helps, right, to show what they’re planning on doing.
Speaker: 0
56:25
So the night before the deal is supposed to happen, they don’t know it, but we’ve got 40 kilos of real cocaine and a thousand pounds of weed. Real. So you can imagine SWAT teams are involved because can I mean, can you imagine if the FBI lost 40 kilos of cocaine? And and Brockton and Taunton’s are all wide awake for the next week, you know, or there’s ODs, you know, because that’s a liability. Did you say you had 40?
Speaker: 0
56:54
There’s only 39 here. Ai don’t know. No. I’m just messing with it. But, so they say, hey. Joe Dawgs calls me. It’s not a church. He says, hey.
Speaker: 0
57:06
I need you to come to the clubhouse. I’m like, alright. Cool. And, of course, I’m thinking I’m Taipei. I’m Scott Payne. I got this. Let’s go do this, man.
Speaker: 0
57:13
These are my boys. I’ve been doing this a year and a half. And I went into the clubhouse and what I couldn’t see, and I won’t say where the recording devices were at because that’s trade ram. But let’s just say Ai had a video and recording device hidden somewhere in my clothing.
Speaker: 0
57:27
I had a completely audio recording device somewhere else on meh, and I had a transmitter batteries that so the team could listen in. And I went into the clubhouse like normal, but what you can’t see if you go back and you watch the video is if I’m facing this way and I’m shooting the shit with you and this is the bar and you’re laughing at my jokes like always, when I would turn my head to look this way, it’s still filming and I didn’t see it because I turned my ai, they go stone face.
Speaker: 0
57:57
And I missed it. I didn’t see it. I do know that when I’ve got to the clubhouse, I knock on the door, knock on the door, I’m knocking on the door. I’m like, what the you know, Joe Dogs props me because they they were not ready yet. And I’ll give them, why the hell did you tell me to come?
Speaker: 0
58:11
I was being smart. I was like, what’s the deal? Ai would you say come if you’re not ready? I didn’t pick anything up. So I go in and for the listeners, that may not know, at least in this clubhouse, if you’re not a patch member, which I wasn’t, they offered it several times.
Speaker: 0
58:27
They wanted me to patch, but I I’m with the what I said for the task force officer. I said the same thing. I’m like, look. If I’m a probate and they sai, get your shit text, we’re gonna go jack this dude. I kinda gotta go.
Speaker: 0
58:40
I mean, if I don’t do it, I’m either getting kicked out or beat down or whatever. Right. But being a high ranking member of an international theft ring that they’re making money off of, sana little different. I we were getting everything we wanted. So I go in the clubhouse. I missed that. I also missed it in the back.
Speaker: 0
58:56
One of them, Chocolate Scott, it looks like he’s dancing to the song that’s playing, but he’s warming up, and I missed that. And then my second closest contact closed ai says, hey, Tex. You got a minute? And I said, yeah. And we walk. I’ve been in that clubhouse.
Speaker: 0
59:12
I don’t know how meh times Joe. But there’s one door Ai never been in. And that’s the door we went in. And it was a very tight stairwell into you can say a basement, but that’s being very, that’s I’m stretching it because I could probably touch the ball wall on both sides and I couldn’t stand up straight.
Speaker: 0
59:28
So they bring me down in there. They brandished their weapons. One of them walks in behind me. He’s on the steps. So they got their pistols.
Speaker: 0
59:35
And, my friend says, hey. There’s a lot of shit going on. It’s my job to take care of my brothers. I need you to write down your full name, your address, your phone number, all kinds of stuff. And I need you to take off all your clothes.
Speaker: 0
59:50
I need to check you for a wire. Woah. Here’s the problem. Had I not been wired, embarrassing? Yes.
Speaker: 0
59:57
Naked with a bunch of men around you in a cold basement? Yeah. That would that would have been bad, but it would have been no threat. But I was wired to the hilt. And so you think, man, do you fight? Do you try to get out? Well, there’s already two or three there.
Speaker: 0
01:00:13
I’m probably gonna do some Tommy boy shit and knock myself out on the joist as soon as I tried trying to fight. And then upstairs, there’s what? 10 more outlaws. And that door, what I was getting into earlier, I didn’t say, if you’re not a patch member, you can’t touch the door.
Speaker: 0
01:00:28
That door has more than one deadbolt on it. They had welded metal hooks to the frame and put one of those, like, shipyard metal bars across. So from a breacher standpoint, it’s a fortified door. It might be easier to breach the wall next to it. So we’re down there in the basement.
Speaker: 0
01:00:44
And when I go to write my name down, I forgot my middle name. And that’s because I was having an oh crap moment. I had an adrenaline dump. Same thing as cops and shootouts, military and shootouts, somebody in a car wreck first ai, everything. When you’re having that adrenaline dump, everything slows down. You get auditory exclusion.
Speaker: 0
01:01:02
So everything you hear and sounds like you’re underwater is going whoosh, whoosh. It’s slow ai you’re talking to me like this. Time dilation, your eyes are clicking. You look and everything’s in frames. Everything’s slowing down. Your hamstrings get really rubbery. You feel your heart beating. Sai mean, do you feel everything pulsing?
Speaker: 0
01:01:20
And what seems like ten, fifteen minutes is probably thirty seconds. And that happens. That’s an adrenaline dump. So that was happening. And I forgot my middle name.
Speaker: 0
01:01:31
And I’m going Scott Kellaway, Scott Kellaway, Scott Kellaway. I’ll start going through this damn Rolodex in my head and I’m going Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway. Ai I’m going, Scott Joseph. I got no. Damn it. That’s the middle that was my middle name for another alias. You know?
Speaker: 0
01:01:42
And I don’t realize that, I do a distraction technique or something to try to get more intelligence. I would have never known I said it, would have never agreed Ai said it had I not seen it in the recording. But I turned and I go, and what else do you need? And by the way, you’ve got a baseline of me now, my voice.
Speaker: 0
01:02:00
It did not sound like this on that recording. My throat was tight. The octaves I mean, it it was very higher than normal, and I’m, like, not even enunciating that well. I’m like, what else do you need? And they’re like, what?
Speaker: 0
01:02:12
I go, my name and what else? Well, now I hear them scream up and they go, what else do you need for that website? So now I know. Oh, are they gonna Google me? Back then, there was who’sarat.com, things like that. So I’m gathering that evidence or intelligence.
Speaker: 0
01:02:26
And then I remember my middle name was, my initials were Sai because I’m an idiot, and I thought it was funny because I ai SAC is the head of an FBI division, and I knew I was never gonna be one. So sai I made my initials SAC. So I remember my name Scott Andrew Callaway and then I write that down. Well, now I take off all my clothes.
Speaker: 0
01:02:43
I take off my my my outer clothing, all my shirts. I take my boots off, and I Ai basically pull my underwear and jeans down around my ankles. So pretty much naked from my I mean, I’m definitely naked from ankles up. And he starts searching meh. And I’m again, I’m having saloni shit moment, and he’s he’s he’s trying to talk to me and, like, we’ve known each other for a year and a half.
Speaker: 0
01:03:08
So I’m not saying it out loud, but if you saw what my face was saying, what my face is saying and asking is, tell me I’m okay. Is this okay? Well, ai, because we were tight, hits me back with a face look. It’s like everything’s alright. This is just procedure.
Speaker: 0
01:03:25
However, he didn’t know that I’m an undercover agent, and I’m wired. So that adds a whole another issue. So he searches me. I think we’re done. He even one point, he even tells me. He says, trust me. If somebody accused me of being a fed, I’d probably smash them ram the fucking mouth.
Speaker: 0
01:03:41
And I said those are his words. And I I immediately said, well, I’m not happy. I’ll tell you what I did do. I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor. And I’ve had people ask me, what does that mean? And I go, well, listen.
Speaker: 0
01:03:52
If you’re in the criminal underbelly of society and there’s plastic on the floor and they’re telling you to walk on it They’re
Speaker: 1
01:03:57
gonna cut you open.
Speaker: 0
01:03:58
Yeah. Yeah. You get this to just to clean up the blood. Yeah. I didn’t see that. I saw a rope. I saw pistols, and I knew I didn’t have a chance in hell of getting out of there in one piece. So he he finishes, and he’s, he’s he’s saying something. He goes he goes, wouldn’t you be suspect if somebody comes to your town and starts doing all this shit with you? I said, yeah. If you came to me.
Speaker: 0
01:04:22
I didn’t come to you guys. Y’all called me over. Nobody has to do this shit. I’m like, what do we you know? Nobody has to do anything. Right?
Speaker: 0
01:04:31
And I think we’re done. So I pull my pants back up, and I think we’re done. And he grabs a piece of clothing of mine, and he starts kneading it and going through it. Now this is 02/2005 to February. So techno technology today is way better than it was then just like technology is. But, let’s just say this.
Speaker: 0
01:04:53
Had he done this down my entire piece of clothing, he would have felt something. And he says as a joke when he starts, he goes, hey. I’m not gonna find anything in here Ai don’t want to, like some naked pictures of my old lady. And he laughs and I his laugh is like and my laugh is like, you ai?
Speaker: 0
01:05:11
And then I’m watching him go down this speak clothing and he’s doing this and he’s needing it. And and Sai you can hear again, I don’t know how to do it, but on the recording, you can hear me go an audible sigh because I’m, like, watching it. I’m going, what the? What am I gonna do? So here’s audience. He doesn’t find it. Wow. Almost. I mean, like, very, very close.
Speaker: 0
01:05:42
And ai the way, that first adrenaline dump, I’ve come back up, and now I’ve got another adrenaline dump. And now I’ve come in, I’m like, son of a you know, peaks and valleys. And, everybody that I’ve taught this to or spoke about it to always ask, they’re like, man, what would you have said?
Speaker: 0
01:05:58
And I’ll tell you, I had two responses because I’m a jovial idiot. My first response, if he would have said, what is this? I would have probably said, I don’t know. Some naked pictures of the old lady to try to buy myself some ai, maybe make him quit searching. The only other thing I had, Joe, is and I remember it like it was yesterday. I would have said the gig is up.
Speaker: 0
01:06:17
I’m an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court or all hell’s gonna break loose. Here’s the issue as I get a swig. That would have been a bluff on my part. Because as far as I knew, every time I was in that clubhouse, my cover team could never hear me for whatever reasons because somebody’s gonna say it’s trade ram.
Speaker: 0
01:06:42
But, again, this is 02/2005 to 02/2008, but they can never really hear me in that clubhouse. And I make it out. I end up going out with Scott Town and Joe Dawgs that ai. But what happens is I am legitimately pissed off because now my adrenaline’s coming back down, and I’m I’m taking it personal. I shouldn’t. I’m undercover as an FBI agent.
Speaker: 0
01:07:06
I’m not really Scott Calloway. I mean, I’m kinda Scott.
Speaker: 1
01:07:08
But you’re so deep in the role.
Speaker: 0
01:07:09
Well and it’s really me kinda. I mean, that’s the whole thing. I never was far off of who I really am in life. Right. A pedophile? Yeah. I’m I’m you hire me to kill somebody? No. I’m not gonna ingratiate with you. I’m a stone cold killer. But I’m hanging with you for two years or a year and a half or whatever. Yeah. The I’m the jokes are kind of the same. So so I’m pissed.
Speaker: 0
01:07:29
And I’m at one point, I’m telling Joe Dawgs. I’m like, you know what, man? F all you sons. I said, y’all show up tomorrow? I said, I’m stripping all y’all in the damn parking lot. You know? I was just and they were nice. They let me vent my stuff.
Speaker: 0
01:07:40
Well, that ai, when I went to turn in my equipment, in an undisclosed location, probably three, four, or five in the morning to the case team. What I found out was this. The shift started with sergeant Higginbotham. Everybody ai him Higgy, and Joe, the detectives. Ai be a detective. These guys are awesome.
Speaker: 0
01:08:02
Phenomenal law enforcement officers. Ai I think their love language is yelling. Maybe that’s my southern thing mixing with the Northeast thing, but they told meh. They said, Scott, we heard you in there. And I’m like, what?
Speaker: 0
01:08:18
When I had that first interaction with Joe Dawgs, they are very street smart, they’re very good investigators, and they have been working this group forever. Something that happened in that first interaction made their spotty senses or the Holy Spirit, if you’re a believer, say something’s not right. They had pulled close enough.
Speaker: 0
01:08:37
They heard everything. They put on their vest. They suited up. And because they’d been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the cinder block wall next to the door. Oh my god. To smash that. You know? Sometimes I’m teaching this. I’ll joke about it and say, it probably would’ve killed me because I was in the basement.
Speaker: 0
01:08:56
You know? Reverse. Back up. You’re so damn heavy. But, at that moment, I was scared to death. Right? So they tell me what happened was they pulled close enough.
Speaker: 0
01:09:10
They heard everything. They’re suiting up. They have radioed now because it’s ai of the beginning of the shift. They’ve radioed now back to Boston. Everybody that’s working that night is now blue lights and siren all the way down to the Holland Astaton, Massachusetts.
Speaker: 0
01:09:22
So, I say this in a jovial way, but the case agent was actually a good friend of mine. We went through the FBI Academy together. And, that night, again, I’m still shell shocked. He says, man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on, I felt like I was in there with you.
Speaker: 0
01:09:39
And I looked at him and I said, you weren’t. I said, because I was looking for any friendly face I could find in that damn hole. But, so, that night, we haven’t talked about my family. I I try not well, I take it back. In my in the book, I’m very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended, you know, nine one one hang ups, stuff like that.
Speaker: 0
01:10:06
But at that point in time, I bought my wife. Everybody’s pretty familiar now with the burner phone. But I bought my wife a a phone that came back to nothing sai my undercover phone could call that phone, not Right. Violating the operational security. That night, Joe, when I called her, I always call her every night. And, again, five, seven in the morning, it didn’t matter.
Speaker: 0
01:10:26
And it might just be shah wakes up and says hello, and I go, hey. I just want you to know I’m done. Heading back to the hotel room. Whenever I wake up this afternoon, I’ll call you. It might be that quick.
Speaker: 0
01:10:34
That night when I called her, the first thing she said to me was, are you okay? And I said Shah felt it. Ai said, yeah. Why? And she said, I was driving with our daughters at such and such time in McAllen, and she said she got this overwhelming feeling and pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for me.
Speaker: 0
01:10:53
And I matched it up. That’s when I was in the basement. So Wow. Say what you will, but, damn. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:11:04
Apparently, my shah signal apparently, I don’t need Verizon or anything. Just it went from Boston all the way to the bottom of Texas, but it’s just, I mean, that that’s just one of the little one of the things that happened, and it just takes a toll on you over time. I can only imagine. Yeah. So I’ll get you to the next day. We do the deal. Clothesline doesn’t show up. Well, that pisses me off. Wait a minute.
Speaker: 0
01:11:30
You’re supposed to be my ai, and you took me into the damn basement and stripped me at gunpoint, but you can’t come up. You you don’t show up the next day and help with this thing? Again, I’m taking it sana. I shouldn’t. So everybody knew there was a beef.
Speaker: 0
01:11:44
Let’s just fast forward a month or two. I go back home, I come back and big Scotty had even sai, he goes, ai, these guys are gonna settle this like grown meh face to face. It ain’t gonna happen over the damn phone. So the next time I go back to Massachusetts, I’m at a cantina.
Speaker: 0
01:12:00
We used to go hang it and drink it in Bridgewater. And, Another hard town. Yeah. Yeah. So, yep. These these are my people. This is where I get called.
Speaker: 0
01:12:11
We did not do any, meetings at the Long Wharf Marriott. You know what I mean? Why would you like to meet me at Legal Seafoods tonight, my fellow criminals? You know? Yeah. Sai sai I’m at this cantina and ai walks in.
Speaker: 0
01:12:28
Now you gotta remember the last time I saw this dude, he took me into a damn basement. And he looked a little rough, like a little whipped, you know, like he’d been disheveled. And he says, hey, man. Can I talk to you for a minute? And the first thing I said was no. And he says, why? I said, because the last time you asked me that shit, I ended up naked in the basement.
Speaker: 0
01:12:47
No. So he says, I was like that. So we went back in the kitchen, and we’re talking. And what we learned or what I learned and the case team learned is when we up the ante to do that drug deal, and again, a lot of those outlaws were pushing for it because as a drug dealer, what are you always looking for?
Speaker: 0
01:13:05
Cheaper product, higher quality. That’s just more money for you. Right? So he was really the the especially Joe Dog. They wanted to get a pipeline.
Speaker: 0
01:13:13
They wanted to get an introduction to the cartel so they could get quality dope, you know, and and have a have a very successful business. So I’m in there with him, and I’m ready I’m ready to go to blows if we have to. And he starts talking to meh. And he says, you know, Scott, he said, what had happened, what I was gonna tell you, is that the call went up to the top, and the top to us meant Milwaukee Jack was the national president.
Speaker: 0
01:13:40
And this this makes a hard argument for when they sai, it’s not an organization. You do your own stuff. We only Meh each other. Nobody knows each other’s business. Well, then how did it go to the top of the outlaws who said, has this guy ever really been checked?
Speaker: 0
01:13:54
And they go back and say, well, we’ve done, like, six to eight jobs with him, and we’re not in bracelets, meaning handcuffs. He said, I don’t care. Check them. So now that’s when I get stripped in the basement. I learned vatsal, and this is what Clothesline tells me. And you gotta meh, my mindset is screw this guy.
Speaker: 0
01:14:12
I’m ready to go to blows. I’m not gonna look like a bitch. And he says, man, I know I was born to be an outlaw. I’m either gonna die young or die in jail. He said, and these are my brothers. He said, but I really don’t have a lot of friends.
Speaker: 0
01:14:26
And he said, ones that I know would take a bullet for me and Ai take a bullet for them. And that’s when I start looking at his face and I’m going, oh, shit. Don’t you say it, man. Don’t you say it. And he says, and you’re one of those people.
Speaker: 0
01:14:40
So now I’m like, and he says the reason he didn’t show up is because he felt so bad for what he had to do to me in the basement that night. He got so obliterated that night. He was passed out through the whole drug deal the next day. So that night when I called my wife, she says hello, and my first words are or she’s like, how’s it going? How did it go?
Speaker: 0
01:15:07
My first words are, I ram a dick. I go, I am such a dick. This guy loves me. He cares about me. Now that’s the real side.
Speaker: 0
01:15:17
That’s the human side. Now there might be you know, we we don’t train that way. We tell you, look. That’s not you, but I’m still human. I’m out there Ai out there. I’m surprised we hadn’t said this yet. A lot of times if I’m speaking or teaching or whatever, I’ll put up there.
Speaker: 0
01:15:31
What does undercover mean to you? So I’ll ask you. What do you think undercover is? You’re pretending. Okay. You’re pretending.
Speaker: 1
01:15:37
You infiltrate an organization, pretend to be one of them?
Speaker: 0
01:15:41
I get that a lot. I get lying. We hear acting. You’re a character. Here is the definition of undercover work. You are building relationships that you’re gonna betray. And that sucks. If you look at it that way
Speaker: 1
01:15:58
Especially if you genuinely have something in common with these guys Right. And you actually like their company.
Speaker: 0
01:16:03
Now don’t get me wrong. If you haven’t done anything illegal, well, then, no. I’m really not I mean, I guess I’m still betraying you because you thought I was somebody else, but we’re not arresting you. I’ve done undercovers like that. There those happen all the time. You’re in there for five months, and you’re like, there’s nothing federal here.
Speaker: 0
01:16:16
I mean, they’re just they’re they’re they’re within their constitutional rights, and you just bail. But, you you have to you you are basically building and betraying relationships, especially if you’re gathering evidence of criminal activity. And you need to know how you’re gonna deal with that. Rationalize that in your mind so it doesn’t have an adverse impact on your ai. And that’s that’s tough.
Speaker: 0
01:16:40
You know? I’ll fast forward you a little bit. I I I I crashed on that case for a three year period. I’ve been going nonstop, and I’m not saying I’m tough. I meh my threshold. I think your threshold changes every day just like your comfort zone.
Speaker: 0
01:16:57
Some days Ai take off jogging at 54 years old. Sometimes I take off running, and I go, it’s gonna be a damn good day. I feel light, fluffy, floating on the floating on the cloud. Some days I take off running, and I go, how long have I been running? Two minutes. Damn.
Speaker: 0
01:17:12
It’s gonna be a long day. You know? So your comfort zone changes. I think your threshold changes, but Ai go into great detail in the book. But, for three years, I had been doing too much. Well, I say doing too much, but even when I moved to Tennessee, I did too much again.
Speaker: 0
01:17:33
I just learned how to balance it better. I I’m a workaholic. I love working. I love doing it all. Shah call outs, running tactical schools here, case agent first, building cases, putting bad people in jail undercover.
Speaker: 0
01:17:45
But I had stopped taking days off because I didn’t wanna give management a reason to tell me I couldn’t go do an undercover. I just work through the weekend or be undercover through the weekend, come back, type up all my stuff, then run my cases. Teaching all the tactics and firearms for McAllen and Brownsville Agents, resident agents, which is just ai offices, out of out of San Antonio.
Speaker: 0
01:18:10
Ai own Shah, running firearms for them, stuff like that, and I just stopped taking care of myself. So we get to a point to where, like I said, in great detail in the book, but just picture this. I already give you a little bit of a blurb on the undercover school. Right? Two weeks, no days off. Let’s just say I’m there for ten days.
Speaker: 0
01:18:27
Well, once we put you to bed, we’re probably gonna hang out and drink a little bit because you’re my peer and it’s also therapy. And I haven’t made it’s good to know that you’re not on an island by yourself, that there are other people doing the same thing you arya, oh, there’s a lot of bonding that goes on there.
Speaker: 0
01:18:43
But that means for ten days, I’m not getting a whole lot of sleep. And I probably got too much alcohol in my system if we’re being transparent. But then I’ll leave straight from that undercover school and I go right into an undercover. And let’s just say I land in Sturgis, which I did, and the Hells Angels shoot five outlaws at point blank range. Meh first day there.
Speaker: 0
01:19:03
Like, I hadn’t been in town ai an hour. Now there’s two old ladies, two past meh, and a probate, but they’re all shot. They confirmed it was Hells Angels. We’re talking paralyzed from the waist down for life. We’re talking shot crushed clavicles. I mean, not just like a a zinger.
Speaker: 0
01:19:17
And now you’re back doing that for days on end. And when I would get home, I would stop taking care of myself. I got to the point to where I was a walking zombie. I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers. I was taking hydroxy cuts like crazy.
Speaker: 0
01:19:34
I was making the strongest coffee I could possibly make, and Ai drink a pot of coffee and fall asleep. So what I learned through the book process, even though Ai learned a lot already, I I found out from my wife. I was a ghost, man. I’d come home from SWAT, work, undercover, whatever. I’d be on the couch. My daughters would be on my lap.
Speaker: 0
01:19:56
I’d help put them to bed, but my wife couldn’t even ask me a simple question about the bills. You know? Hey. There’s this bill. I got do whatever you got. I can’t think.
Speaker: 0
01:20:06
I just need to and she wanted to do everything she could to support me and just let me veg and not put me not putting up anything on my plate. So we get to the end of the outlaw case, and I’m starting to crash. Didn’t know it. If you are a certified undercover and you were active in the FBI, you mandatorily have to be psychologically assessed twice a year. That whole thing is called Safeguard.
Speaker: 0
01:20:32
I’m not adding anything. It’s out there. It’s on the Internet. But the Safeguard process was created by Joe Pistone, not Nebraska. Wow.
Speaker: 0
01:20:41
It was created by Joe and a and a former agent who was his background was a clinical psychologist, Steve Bann. And they came up with this because Joe you gotta remember when Joe was undercover, there was no attorney general guidelines. There was not there probably wasn’t even an operational procedure manual for undercovers. It was ai, here’s money. Here’s your recorders. Go make a case.
Speaker: 0
01:21:01
He was one of the first twenty five undercovers in the FBI in 1972. That happened right after Hoover left. Hoover did not believe in the undercover technique, but as soon as he was out, they started working undercover. But the safeguard process goes ai you take a bunch of psychological set test, and then you’re gonna sit down, you’re gonna take a speak.
Speaker: 0
01:21:21
It’s gonna put a bunch of numbers into some charts. You’re gonna sit down with a clinical psychologist. They may be an agent for the FBI sana they may be contracted in. They’re gonna go over all that stuff with you. They’re gonna dive deep into your sai.
Speaker: 0
01:21:30
Try to. And then after that, you’re gonna sit down with somebody like a Pistone or an experienced undercover because you know the old saying, you can’t bullshit a bullshitter. Well, we use undercover, you sai, as a verb. You can’t UC or UC. Sai I remember going to take one of the tests as an open ended sentence.
Speaker: 0
01:21:50
You have to fill in the blanks. So I’m on my way to Daytona at a world run with the outlaws, still rolling heavy in the case. And I I stopped off at an undisclosed location to do the assessment. And, I meh, like, the opening in a sense, it might be men arya, and you gotta finish it. I’d always say men. Women are. I put women.
Speaker: 0
01:22:11
Maybe ai, what do you mean? I go, you know what I ai? I said, I’m not opening that can of worms. No. We’re different. How’s that?
Speaker: 0
01:22:20
But there was one that said the last time I relaxed, Sai, and I couldn’t think anything. Wow. Nothing. And that’s not me Ai. I’m, like, sitting there at the table going well, I work out all the time. I’m like, but that’s not relaxing.
Speaker: 0
01:22:34
It’s not like I’m Namaste and listen to Saloni and shit. I’m like, I’m trying to throw 40 fives across the gym. You know? But I’m like, sai I just made up a story. Even even at that moment, I thought, man, that’s really screwed up. Wow. But I was like, yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:22:49
Ai a big deal. And, again, way more detail in the book. But the thing that the thing that happened to me was, I ended up out I’m out partying with Outlaws and Mongos all night. We, I wake up the next morning. I mean, you can hear and feel the whiskey and eggs squishing in your belly.
Speaker: 0
01:23:09
You know that, you know, and I’m like, Ai just feel disgusted. I’m gonna start working out. So I’m in the hotel room doing, before p 90 came out, but kind of that thing. Burpees, mountain climbers, push ups, air squats, sit ups, all this stuff. And I came up and by the way, this is after I hit the inhaler, took a decongestant, antihistamine, three hydroxy cuts, two cups of coffee.
Speaker: 0
01:23:32
I don’t know if there’s anything else in there. I later learned that that was basically a cocktail for an anxiety attack. I was like, who knew? Ai make a lot of sense, but I had I had an anxiety attack. I was trying to work out.
Speaker: 0
01:23:45
I came up for air, hyperventilated, forgot all about combat breathing, forgot about paper bags. And, but did I stop? Did I say, man, that’s really screwed up? No. I took a nap, got up, started drinking Jack Daniels, and went back. But when I flew home, I slept wheels up to wheels down till I hit Houston.
Speaker: 0
01:24:06
And then I slept wheels up to wheels down till I got to McAllen. And I think probably the first two days, I might have slept close to twenty hours a day. But for the whole week for ai for, like, Sunday to Friday, I slept an average of sixteen plus hours a day. Wow. And I wasn’t Ai wasn’t depressed.
Speaker: 0
01:24:26
I wasn’t sick. I know what they both feel like. I was that damn tired. So by Friday morning, I take a phone call from a a former good buddy of mine. He is probably one of the best undercovers I’ve ever seen, but he was calling me about a possible another biker case.
Speaker: 0
01:24:42
And his first question was, how you doing country? And I’m like, not too good. And then he let me talk for an hour and convinced myself I needed to call Safeguard. So I called them. They came in and did an on-site assessment.
Speaker: 0
01:24:54
They, diagnosed me as over ai, and they said you can continue the case on the phone until they take it down. And I stayed on the phone. I made a story up because I’d gotten married technically. And I told them I was getting a divorce, but I had to relocate my my wife and my kids to El Paso where her family was at.
Speaker: 0
01:25:15
Once that’s done, I’m pulling shocks. I’m coming to Massachusetts. We’d already created it was in the creation, our own biker club that it was approved by the top of the Outlaws to be the number one support club in the Northeast, and we weren’t gonna name it the Righteous Few.
Speaker: 0
01:25:30
Scott Town was gonna be the president. I was gonna be an officer in it, sergeant in arya. And, and ai I never went back up there because they told me I couldn’t. When you get put on time out, it’s like you no travel. You can be a case agent. We’re gonna suggest to your division no travel. Definitely no undercover work.
Speaker: 0
01:25:48
There was some confusion there because one of the arguments is you need to engrave you need to you need to get back in to being a case agent and remember what you’re supposed to be doing. And I’m like, I never stopped being a case. I’m I’m running all these damn cases while all this is going on. But, I I took a time out.
Speaker: 0
01:26:06
Well, I’ve made some phone calls. There was one guy named Tim Sylvia, not the fighter, who is a buddy now, by the way. Tim this guy’s name was Tim Sylvia. He, had been in prison most of his life. But before I stopped going up there, he was introduced to me.
Speaker: 0
01:26:24
He knew about the cocaine. He knew about what I did. He calls me and says, man, I got some stolen vehicles for you. I’m in the magic powder business. If you can get me those bricks or whatever he called them, code on the phone, for 18 apiece, I can buy 10 of them right now.
Speaker: 0
01:26:42
So I called the case team and said, look. He’s reaching out to me. I can’t come back up there. So we rigged it up to where, the guys that were posing as my truck drivers went, and they were gonna pick up these stolen vehicles. They had, like, a seven series BMW worth a hundred plus grand at the time and some other vehicles while they were with them.
Speaker: 0
01:27:02
So here I am on time out in my garage, sweating my tail off in McAllen, and I’ve got my two phones. I’m talking to the undercovers. I’m talking to Tim Sylvia. I’m telling them where to go. They’re being covered. They go. They meet.
Speaker: 0
01:27:15
While they’re meeting Tim, the truck driver, supposed to play in my truck driver, calls me. You can hear me clearly on the recording. I’m talking on it. And, I tell him how much to pay Tim for the stolen vehicles. And Tim was like, hey. I’m gonna report the BMW tyler stolen on Friday.
Speaker: 0
01:27:32
And I said, can you make it Saturday? Give me twenty four hours more to get this thing into Mexico. And they did that. And then when they went to load the vehicles, he hit them for an 18 a key for 10 keys. And they said meh, and they ended the case with them doing a ruse delivery of that dope. And so you ask about the relationships.
Speaker: 0
01:27:54
So this is how it ends. I’m in Nevada helping put on an undercover school. That was one thing that Safeguard said I could go to, because they also knew they could do many assessments, watch me, put me around on the undercovers, make sure I’m not losing my shit. And, I can’t remember the time difference, to Massachusetts, but I’ve already been drawing up diagrams of all these houses and clubhouses I’ve been in, and I’m, you know, sending those to all these SWAT teams all over the Northeast that are gonna be hitting all these places.
Speaker: 0
01:28:24
And I got back to my hotel room, and I always kept my undercover well, the case went over technically yet anyway, but I always kept my undercover phones on for at least a month after a case went down in case you got threatened or anything like that. Well, I get back to my room and my next house chirping. And I check-in this this Scott Town. He’s left me a message.
Speaker: 0
01:28:45
So I chirp him up and he’s all raspy voice because he’s been just woken up and he’s like, hey, man. I just want you to know, your your truck driver Saloni and and the other guy, they were beating big Timmy ai I don’t know what happened, but they all I think they all got locked up.
Speaker: 0
01:29:00
Well, he didn’t know that I’m an undercover. He’s telling me that that was the takedown day. So he’s calling me and I’m like, oh, I said, well, you know what, brother? I appreciate that. I said, I don’t I don’t always control everything they do.
Speaker: 0
01:29:11
Sometimes they do side jobs on their own. I said, I they were not up there for me, but I’ll try to find out what’s going on. He said, let me tell you what I’m ai do. He said, I’m gonna get up, get cleaned up. I’m gonna find out what the hell is going on.
Speaker: 0
01:29:22
I’m gonna call you back. And I said, okay. His last words to me were, Ai I’m a get chucked up. His last words to me were, I love you, brother. And I chirped back and I said, I love you too.
Speaker: 0
01:29:33
And he he didn’t know that a SWAT team was gonna be hitting him in about forty minutes. Wow. That’s the last time I talked to him. He’ll probably hear this. I I got a fifty fifty shot. If he walks up, I’ll hug him. He probably wants to beat the shit out of meh, but Jesus.
Speaker: 1
01:29:47
Sai. Is he out? Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:29:51
He’s out now. How much time did he do? I think he did, like, eight. Eight or 10, somewhere in there.
Speaker: 1
01:29:57
Do you have this anxiety of running into those guys somewhere?
Speaker: 0
01:30:01
Yes and no. It really comes with a job. However, somebody pointed pointed out a difference to me the other day. They’re I’m like, look, meh. As a cop or as an agent, you’re locking people up, and they’re getting out. You know, if you get threatened in Greenville County, if you’re working for Greenville County Sheriff’s Office, let’s say we’re here. Was it Travis County?
Speaker: 0
01:30:20
If you get a threat, a legit threat in Travis County, do you think they got the money in the budget or they would even spend money in their budget to move you to another town? No. But in the FBI, we have that. You hit the threat system, they move you somewhere, change a bunch of stuff.
Speaker: 0
01:30:33
So in the law enforcement, there’s always been you can lock people up. You go to the grocery store, you’re with your wife and kids, and you see them. Everybody hands up their own way. For me, my best defense is a good offense. Ai just walk right up to you. Hey, man. Holy shit. How are you doing?
Speaker: 0
01:30:52
I cannot believe. When did you get out? Are you okay? Hey. Are you on the straight and narrow now? You know, because I’m gonna tell you, transparent.
Speaker: 0
01:31:00
There’s few things I love more than a success story. Sadly, they’re very rare in my 28 career. But to see somebody who broke the law, got out, turned themselves around, and are doing great, I love it. You do see some of those? Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:31:17
And I’ll help them. I’m helping one right now. I told them. I said, look. If you’re doing the right thing, they’re they’re like, well, I got a felon on my record.
Speaker: 0
01:31:23
I’m like, well, who better to be a reference for you on your application than the guy who gave you the felon? If you’re doing the right thing, I’ll talk for you. Wow. We all mess up. I mean, shit. You know?
Speaker: 1
01:31:35
But that’s gotta be so complicated because you’re the guy who got him arrested.
Speaker: 0
01:31:39
It is. And I have had threats that were legit, and I’ve had them at the sheriff’s office where I was like, what do we do? And my lieutenant is like, we’re we’re gonna get some cops, and we’re gonna knock on that dude’s door. Okay. And I’ve also been in the FBI where you could’ve gotten moved, and I ai, no. I’m not once that case gets taken down, I’m overt.
Speaker: 0
01:31:58
Like, a lot of people may not know it. I’m not trying to insult intelligence, but when you’re arrested, I may be arrested with you. I may not be. There’s all kinds of ways we can do a takedown, but eventually, you’re gonna be sitting with your defense attorney, and you’re gonna get discovery.
Speaker: 0
01:32:11
And discovery is supposed to be everything. Now there have been FBI people who did not turn over everything, and it was very wrong, and we are still paying the price for it. But discovery is supposed to be everything. And at that point, you’re gonna hear me on a preamble. You’re gonna hear me go let’s see. What’s today?
Speaker: 0
01:32:26
You’re gonna hear me go, this is UCE, undercover employee. This is UCE one two whatever. It’s Wednesday, March 26 vatsal time, ‘2 ’40 ‘5 PM. I’m about to walk in to meet Joe. And they’re gonna hear that, and they’re gonna know that I’m the undercover.
Speaker: 0
01:32:40
They may not know my last name’s Payne, but they’re gonna know. Now what somebody pointed out to me was, you know, as a cop, though, you’re just doing your job and you’re arresting them. As an undercover, you’ve lied to them. And I went, probably should have thought about that before I did the book. Damn.
Speaker: 0
01:32:58
But I I try not to I don’t I don’t wanna live my life in fear. I’m a optimist. I’m a glass. It’s always half full guy.
Speaker: 1
01:33:09
God. That’s hard to believe given your circumstances.
Speaker: 0
01:33:12
I don’t know how for me ai, I don’t know how to survive ai. Because if I was doom and gloom and the glass is always half empty, maybe this is a good time to interject this. First responders military. Do you know what we’re number I’m talking fire, medic, cop, military. You know what we’re number one in? Suicide. Suicide. You know what else we’re number one in?
Speaker: 0
01:33:33
Divorce, alcoholism, throw in pills or whatever you want there. We’re also number one in dying within five years after retiring. Who signs up for that? Right. You know?
Speaker: 0
01:33:45
Hell, yeah. First in hell. Second in heaven. No. No. Ai pass. But yeah. So that hurt. I mean, it it’s very it’s surreal.
Speaker: 0
01:33:57
And, yeah, great job, but, yeah, I mean, I’m human. And and, and I did really bond with that guy. And just like I felt like a piece of trash when Clothesline told me that I was really he considered me really his friend. Wow.
Speaker: 1
01:34:11
You know? Sai how he doing now?
Speaker: 0
01:34:13
I don’t know if he’s out or not. He had he was supposed to get I think he got 12 and a half, but I didn’t keep up with it. I mean, sometimes people go to jail, they pick up some more charges because they did something stupid in jail. But I will tell you talking on that trans, talking on that, success story thing.
Speaker: 0
01:34:28
Most of my career, with the exception of a pedophile, almost everybody I’ve arrested, I’ll sit down with them and I’ll say, listen. I’m not saying Ai think you’re a bad person. I’m not saying I disagree what you did. What I’m saying is is you’re an adult. You made a choice to break the law and you got caught. So let’s just start right here. This is whatever it’s all I got. This is on the table.
Speaker: 0
01:34:52
Let’s don’t do that dating game BS where you lie to me for two months and I lie to you for two months and then when we’re figuring out, we figure out we really do kinda like each other. Now I can tell you the truth. This is what I got. And it’s just it’s not dehumanizing, and they’re still people.
Speaker: 0
01:35:07
And I love connecting with people, like I said.
Speaker: 1
01:35:10
Wow. It was a great attitude. Did you ever think, like, ai you’re talking to people like Scott Towne, like, man, if my life had been different, Ai gone down the wrong roads, grew up in a different neighborhood,
Speaker: 0
01:35:20
you would be one of them. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. That’s why we had so much in common.
Speaker: 1
01:35:25
Yeah. That’s part of the problem with life. Yeah. Everybody wants to pretend that that could never be me.
Speaker: 0
01:35:30
No. Absa it coulda easily been me. And I’m like, Sai I looked at it and I’m like, it’s that proverbial fork in the road. I went that way, but I coulda easily went that way. Yeah. That’s why I got along with them so much. You know? Ai, other than, like, pedophile stuff.
Speaker: 1
01:35:45
So what pedophile stuff did you have to do?
Speaker: 0
01:35:48
Actually, one of the quickest undercovers I ever did was the most satisfying. And I actually did this one, I think, before the outlaws. It was in San Antonio. They, there was a guy that got picked up from ram less than a kid, and I didn’t know the whole backstory. But in the San Antonio vision, the agents and stuff knew me or the SWAT people.
Speaker: 0
01:36:09
They knew I’m the undercover ai, And, they called me up because while he was in Bexar County, in San Antonio, he approached, somebody in jail, solicited them to kill the kid or to find somebody that could kill the kid. A lot of these murder for hire plans are stupid, but that’s actually wasn’t too bad of a plan. Like, if the kids these cases are tough. They suck.
Speaker: 0
01:36:31
They’re they’re they’re atrocious. They are I mean, it’s a waste of oxygen in my personal opinion. But it’s usually a kid from a broken home, it’s after the fact, it’s an adult versus a kid. But he knew he wasn’t gonna do well in bryden. So he approached, somebody in prison who then, as most people who are serving time do, they are trying to get credit to get out.
Speaker: 0
01:36:55
And that person called his attorney, and that attorney called the Ai, and they worked it out to where he introd me. So I drive up to Bexar County. I, sign in because he put me on the list. I go in, and, I’m in I’m in I’m in the phone bank. It’s all stainless steel.
Speaker: 0
01:37:14
You can’t hear nothing but baby mamas, and everybody’s screaming and cussing and pissed off. And here I am trying to get this recording through this glass. And I’m talking to the guy, and, I said, you know who I am? He’s like, yeah. I said, well, I hope you do because you put me on your list to come see you. You know what I do? And he’s like, yes.
Speaker: 0
01:37:30
I was like slow rolling it. I didn’t know. I didn’t wanna scare him off. So I was like, you know, I’m in the extermination business. And he’s like, yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:37:36
I said, I kill pests for a living. He said, yep. That’s exactly what I wanted. And I had a picture of the kid. Of course, we’re working with the family on this, but I had a picture of the kid just walking like a surveillance photo.
Speaker: 0
01:37:49
And I put it up on the window, and I said, is this the pest, that you want taken care of? Something to that effect. And clearly on the recording, thank you, Lord. It picked it up. He said, that’s him. So you’re not gonna call a bug him. Right?
Speaker: 0
01:38:02
Sai, what I found out is Ai met him twice. Just a two meh thing. But what I found out from the solicitor’s office in in Bexar County, it was mostly women working it because it was the the crimes against children was combined with the domestic violence unit. And, Joe, when I went walking in there and they’re like, this is Scott. I mean, they all stood. It’s like some TV show.
Speaker: 0
01:38:26
They stood up and they started clapping. I’m like, I don’t understand. And they sent me chest beating. That’s not what I’m ai. But it’s like, what is going on?
Speaker: 0
01:38:33
They’re like, thank you so much. You’re so and I’m like, I appreciate it, but I’m doing my job. What they told me is that guy had walked on four molestation cases before. Oh. And he also walked on some, possession of, somehow he got out of the possession of child pornography stuff.
Speaker: 0
01:38:53
And, but when he found out, when they approached him and said I was an undercover and that they got him, he plead guilty to hiring me to kill the kid and plead guilty to the molestation of the kid. Matter of fact, when I was talking to him the first time, he threw me off guard because he starts he he was like, yeah. Yeah. And I go, alright.
Speaker: 0
01:39:11
Well, what do you got? Ai time, the other we’re talking to and he was like, hey. I’d like you to kill the rest of his family too. They’re in Wisconsin. And I’m I actually giggled a little bit because it threw me off.
Speaker: 0
01:39:18
I went, well, I’m not above traveling, but let’s deal with one pass at a time. I’m like, you agree. I’m thinking in my head, go, man. You know? But he knew, as most pedophiles do, you’re not gonna do well in prison.
Speaker: 1
01:39:31
So his idea was kill the kid, kill the family, and then there’s no evidence ai he did?
Speaker: 0
01:39:36
He just gets to walk because then there’s no witness to show up to trial. Jesus Christ. Right? Yeah. And and then being around that stuff, like, I’ve had trainees that, you know, you get a new agent, they come in, they assign you as the training agent, and they might be working that stuff.
Speaker: 0
01:39:52
And I will tell you ram me personally, that’s tough to work for me. Okay. It was before I even had girl before I even had kids. I remember seeing, like, ai, five images. We we hit a guy. He was actually a professor at University of Texas Pan Ram, and he was so vigilant.
Speaker: 0
01:40:11
I mean, he had, like, he had all the the the child porn videos broken down by ethnicity, age, sex.
Speaker: 1
01:40:19
Oh, Jesus.
Speaker: 0
01:40:20
Ai, I mean, you could sai, I want Asian male eleven, and he would have I mean my god. And it was just sick. Now did he come from a messed up thing? Yeah. Turns out his mother had molested him and his brother. We tie them in the basement. Tie them to each other and make them have sex with each other. Oh my god. But it’s horrific, but break the chain, man. Break the chain.
Speaker: 0
01:40:39
So, yeah, I saw I saw, like, five photos, and I was I was messed up for probably a week or two.
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01:40:45
A professor.
Speaker: 0
01:40:45
Yeah. My wife would try to she’d try to touch meh. Not even just to be in it. I mean, just to touch, and Ai be like, uh-uh. No. Ai like, I can’t, man. I gotta get this shit out of my head. Wow. Now later on in undercovers, I could be the guy to drive and pick you up. I could show you pictures. Is this what you want ai of thing?
Speaker: 0
01:41:01
But to, like, sit there and look through that stuff, my brain’s not cut out for that. But there are those who arya. And in the FBI, they if you’re looking at that, you have to be psychologically assessed as well as you should.
Speaker: 1
01:41:14
I could only imagine. How are these guys getting these videos? Are they making them?
Speaker: 0
01:41:20
Joe, it is.
Speaker: 1
01:41:20
There’s ai sai, that’s the thing. Right? This is one of the grand
Speaker: 0
01:41:24
huge. It’s one of the so freaking huge.
Speaker: 1
01:41:26
That’s the scary thing because most people aren’t aware of it, and this is one of the big conspiracy theories that there’s these pedophile rings out there, but they’re real.
Speaker: 0
01:41:33
Yeah. Yeah. Human trafficking. Now I I can sway on some of the human trafficking stuff because I’ve seen human trafficking from the border all the way to the hotel room. If it’s it’s it’s rarely a hooker ever on free will or an escort of on free will. But if they’re out there doing I I don’t know.
Speaker: 0
01:41:50
It gets a little muddy on some of the traffic and stuff for me personally, but it’s still trafficking. They got brought in when they were underage. Now they’re a product of what they’ve been forced to do. You know? It’s, it’s very sai. But as far as the child porn stuff goes, it’s insane.
Speaker: 0
01:42:04
I’ve worked with some they call them ICACs, crimes against children. And there’s so much out there, but there were so much at one this is just me in in Tennessee. I’m with them. They have so many hits on whatever dark web thing it is. Ai be Discord. I’m trying to think of what it used to be.
Speaker: 0
01:42:26
But there’s all kinds of stuff like that that they’ll go to these in what they believe or what arya encrypted apps, that are based overseas. So they don’t think that the FBI or feds here, the alphabet boys and girls, can do subpoenas and get that stuff. That’s why they use those.
Speaker: 0
01:42:45
Now does that mean that everybody on Discord’s bad? Absolutely not. Telegram? No. But do people go there to do bad things? Yep. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:42:53
And it’s just ai you could go I remember them showing me stuff as the undercover coordinator. I’m over there and I’m looking at stuff, and they’re showing me what all the hits they’ve got right now. Just people hitting and through the databases. You could do knock and talks every freaking day all day long. Hey, man. How you doing? Hey. Not if we look at your computer.
Speaker: 0
01:43:10
You might not get in there. But, yeah, it’s a it’s a mess. A mess.
Speaker: 1
01:43:16
And so there’s a whole ring of people all across the country?
Speaker: 0
01:43:20
Yeah. Or just mom and pops farming out their kids. Oh my god. Yeah. Sai across state lines. Oh. Yeah. Not good at all. There’s just like, again, I meh McAllen several times. This isn’t undercover stuff, but case agent stuff. I mean, there’s my my look at doing a book on case agent stuff.
Speaker: 0
01:43:43
I was down there working the cartel with me and my then the people I worked with. That was back when OZL Cardenas ran the Gulf Cartel. So it was ai. Violent as you know what, but there was some kind of SOP. There was like a procedure.
Speaker: 0
01:43:57
But, I mean, when I try to tell people, I’m like, look, I don’t care whether you’re left or right. I I meet all kinds of people. If you’re extreme left, I’m probably gonna tell you you’re an idiot. If you’re extreme right, I know you’re an idiot because I’ve been with them.
Speaker: 0
01:44:10
I’m like, I just wanna bring it. What’s what’s so funny is you start here and you go far left, and they’re like, I want it. I’m a socialist. I’m a socialist. I want everything for free. I want it. And you start here on the far right, and they’re like, I want Hitler.
Speaker: 0
01:44:23
I want Hitler, but that’s socialism. You get here, it’s the same shit. They just want stuff for free. I want all whites. Well, that’ll fix everything. You know? Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:44:31
It’s just it’s insane. But down on the border, you tell people, you’re like, man, they just I’m not saying that I’m not trying to shed a bad light on Mexico and stuff, but it a lot of it runs on corruption. A lot of it runs on money, and they do not value life like we do. I mean, man, they chop heads off. It’s Al Qaeda stuff.
Speaker: 0
01:44:50
I mean, they’re sawing heads off. You find a van full of eight heads. We weren’t kidnappers and extortions down there all the time back then. I mean, one of the one of the cases, OZL, it was we thought it was a ai’ tyler, and this is sick. So I apologize to people that think this is way gross, but it’s real. The first one isn’t that gross. He had a ai he would feed people too.
Speaker: 0
01:45:15
A line. A line. And that was the rumor. And then I can’t remember if it they went up in a fixed wing or a helicopter, but they flew over the line. And somebody was asking the other one, hey. What are all his bones? And they were like, ai, I’ll poll you. You know, chicken.
Speaker: 0
01:45:27
That’s a that’s a big ass chicken. That chicken looks like a femur. You know? So there’s that. But the one that was really sick is, so when they would kidnap you, like like, if you lost a load or they thought you stole something or you didn’t pay your quotas because even as a as a undocumented special interest alien, whatever you wanna call it, illegal alien smuggler, you had to pay quotas to the cartel to smuggle through their territory.
Speaker: 0
01:45:53
Same thing with Doug. If you got behind on that, they kidnap you. Same Meh. Three Suburbans pull up somewhere in South Texas, jump out on such and such corner. Everybody’s in black BDUs. They ram you. That was the Sai. They were the enforcement cocktail.
Speaker: 0
01:46:06
They take you over, beat you, start calling the family saying we want a hundred grand, 3 hundred grand, whatever. You start we’d start brokering the deal because we have border liaison officers, and we would do cross trainings with military and police in in Mexico. So the border lay off officer calls and goes, hey. It’s such and such time of day on this corner. Three suburban’s pulled up. The guy’s name is this.
Speaker: 0
01:46:27
It was this time. Okay. Like, thirty minutes forty thirty minutes to an hour later, we get a callback. They got him. What’s the deal?
Speaker: 0
01:46:32
He he brought a load back, and it was missing a hundred grand. Okay. So now I’m in I’m in the house with the family going, okay. They want $300. Well, we don’t have it. Well, they don’t have it. They want a hundred grand. We don’t have it. Well, what do you got? We got $60.
Speaker: 0
01:46:49
What else they got? Remember my v eight four by four? They got a Suburban. How many miles are on it? And here we are at midnight rolling the Suburban over the bridge with $60,000 to get the sun back. Wow.
Speaker: 0
01:47:02
So one of the we thought was a wife’s tale is that OZL had a I don’t know what the politically correct term is these days, but a midget. Small person? I don’t know. But the the the meh was back then that he had a midget who was very well endowed, and he would rape people for the cartel.
Speaker: 0
01:47:19
Then you just let that soak in for a little bit. I’m like, Jesus. Ai comedy starts coming out. I’m like, how do you get the small purse? Ai don’t know. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:47:30
That’s his thing.
Speaker: 0
01:47:31
Ai so we all thought it was BS. And then there was a Christmas Eve. We started getting calls. I was actually driving, to Arizona for vacation, but I was on the phone calling sources and calling all the other agents. The this guy had, basically carjacked a car in Rio Grande City. So directly across the river is Camargo. So he gets in there.
Speaker: 0
01:47:59
He didn’t look in the back sai as an infant. Now the cartel’s pissed at him for bringing heat and they are beating him and they’re I mean, it’s they used to hit him with the clubs, throw kilos bricks at him, cigarette burns, cigar burns real big, battery cables, stuff like that, threatening him.
Speaker: 0
01:48:16
And, we got him back. But when he came across the bridge, my peers called me and go, holy shah. Scott is real. Ai go, what are you talking about? He said, this dude is bawling. When the call came in and the cartel was like, okay. Let this one go, the midget was in the room.
Speaker: 0
01:48:32
That guy was crying when he came back across the bridge. He was getting ready to get raped. Wow. Slightly sick. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:48:40
Yeah. Slightly.
Speaker: 0
01:48:42
It’s a different world.
Speaker: 1
01:48:43
Yeah. That’s probably the worst least bad thing they could do to you.
Speaker: 0
01:48:48
I don’t know. Ai don’t know how to look in the mirror after all that. I don’t know.
Speaker: 1
01:48:52
I mean, you get out alive, I guess.
Speaker: 0
01:48:55
It’s insane.
Speaker: 1
01:48:56
Or do you? So other than the pedophile cases, what what were the most, like, shocking cases that you
Speaker: 0
01:49:05
had to do? Well, they’re all a little shocking in their own way.
Speaker: 1
01:49:10
The pedophile one’s gotta be the hardest one to, like, sleep at night.
Speaker: 0
01:49:13
Yeah. But if what a good to know. But what a good feeling to get him.
Speaker: 1
01:49:16
Right. That’s a different feeling. That’s a nonconflicted feeling when you get him. Good. Yeah. When she called me, when the assistant
Speaker: 0
01:49:20
Yeah. When she called me, when the assistant solicitor called me and said, hey. He ai guilty. They got he got twenty for I can’t remember which was for which, but he got twenty years for, I believe the most molestation intended for hiring me to kill him. So and then they had to do state of Texas was 85%. Sai, yeah, it was gonna be a tough ride for him. Pardon the pun. Yeah. But, yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:49:45
So crazy stuff, man. I mean, that some of that neo Sai stuff was just insane.
Speaker: 1
01:49:49
How’d you get involved in that?
Speaker: 0
01:49:50
Well, number one, I go where my skill set takes me. Number two, we kinda go to what the shift is in the Ai. Were people doing a lot of biker club stuff anymore? Not at that time. Ai was a criminal, criminal investigator for pretty much my entire career. But towards the end, in Tennessee, I switched over to the joint terrorism task force. And I really did it because it was just I was having some disagreements.
Speaker: 0
01:50:19
Some would be ai, but I was having disagreements with management. And my MO had always been, even though I burned myself out before, once I got to Tennessee, I set up accountability buddies. I set up trip wires and stopped saying yes to everything and made ways to relax and balance and get myself back.
Speaker: 0
01:50:40
But towards the end, we I I switched over to joint children task force because, again, my MO was try to be above average on your squad. And then if you’re kicking butt on stats and stuff like that, then, maybe they won’t say no to let me go do the undercover. Maybe they won’t say no to let me go help put on this SWAT school or this SWAT call out, and that was what I did.
Speaker: 0
01:51:08
But that wasn’t working for me in Tennessee anymore. And I I went to the the head of the division and and requested to be moved. So I went to joint chasm task force, and, my skill set kinda led right into that domestic terrorism stuff because it was like, in the state of Tennessee, you have arya nations, which was the Tennessee’s, department of, corrections, TDOC, prison gang, but it’s white supremacy.
Speaker: 0
01:51:36
So as a case agent, I started working that stuff. And then I just started getting more exposed to those kind of cases. So now when the canvases start coming up or we’re running an undercover op ourselves, those cases are coming in and it’s like, okay, I’ll do that one unless anybody’s got a disagreement, you know, and that’s what I started doing.
Speaker: 0
01:51:55
That’s how we kinda got into those because we started getting more threats, you know, after the Charlottesville stuff. Now it’s really getting ai on the radar. They’re like, meh. This is maybe we should be putting more resources. Maybe we should be putting the FBI is saying maybe we should be putting more resources to this domestic terrorism threat.
Speaker: 0
01:52:13
And that’s ai I started getting. I mean, I Ai would go into I ai of mentioned it earlier, but a a neo Nazi group, but it’s mainly online. And here I am for five months reading post after post. And I if I woke up after six hours of sleep and there were I was 1,500 posts behind, I’d rewind it and read them all for five months because I didn’t wanna miss anything.
Speaker: 0
01:52:35
Meh, personally, I didn’t wanna miss anything or anything bad happened because I missed something. But after five months and maybe meeting them once or twice, there was it’s all first amendment protected. They weren’t they weren’t doing any thing to prepare for the violence for to cause violence. They’re just preparing for the day.
Speaker: 0
01:52:54
And then when the day happens, then they’ll be ready. But, again, I talk to people overseas, Canada, whatever. I ai explain. And I’m like, look in The United States. We have a constitution and your first amendment, is freedom of speech.
Speaker: 0
01:53:08
I sai, you can walk out in the street right here and sai, I hate every say a racial slur. I hope every racial slur dies. That’s not illegal. As you know, have you seen it? You can burn American flags. Freedom of speech. Try that in China. Right. Let me know how that works for you. Right.
Speaker: 0
01:53:26
Death to China. Light the flag on fire. I’m not sure how long you’ll last. Right? Not long.
Speaker: 0
01:53:30
But, that’s what we that’s that’s the hard thing about working domestic terrorism is there’s no federal domestic terrorism statute. So you’re trying to see what crimes are they committing, if any, and what can we do to get them off the street if they’re planning bad things.
Speaker: 1
01:53:48
So how did you infiltrate the neo Sai organization? Did you actually meet with them in person, or did was it mostly online?
Speaker: 0
01:53:57
So I’ll just jump to the base. Okay. Because, the base was the one that’s kind of the beginning and the end of the book. They were actively recruiting. I mean, I was in the clan too for a little while, for the job. I gotta be careful I say it. Right? People click that. Right? I don’t think.
Speaker: 0
01:54:14
Back when
Speaker: 1
01:54:15
I was
Speaker: 0
01:54:15
in the clan, we were good old boys. But, the they were recruiting openly online, the base was. And the base is an accelerationist group. And that’s what Ai, again, great detail in the book, in the podcast, but the thing is is most people here of white supremacy, they think hoods and robes and crosses on fire.
Speaker: 0
01:54:40
Right? That’s not this, man. These are these are this is why they’re called Accelerationist. There’s a book out there called Siege, written by James Mason, ai white supremacist. It’s a weird book. It’s basically articles and interviews all just shoved together. But this guy kinda idolized and and interviewed people like Charles Manson.
Speaker: 0
01:54:59
You know, what a great girl role model. Ai mean, if you’re looking, but it he he created a group called Adam Waffen, and this is what accelerationism is. Because when I go to infiltrate the base, I’m just answering stuff they’re putting out there. Emails, they’re posting on Gab, save your race, join the base.
Speaker: 0
01:55:22
We’re a survivalist group. Email is at thebase_1@protonmail.com. So I start answering that stuff. After about a week or so of emails back and forth after me asking me everything, ai ethnicity, my height, weight, when was my red pill moment, which they kinda use the matrix thing there.
Speaker: 0
01:55:41
So if they sai, when were you red pill? As a Christ follower, it’s the same thing as when I was baptized or when I got saved. Right? So if if the if you’re an accelerationist or that level of neo Nazi sana they say, what was your red pill moment? You need to know it because it’s kinda like the big deal. That’s when you said, Right. Hate all of the people.
Speaker: 0
01:55:59
So after about a speak week or so of emails, I get on, they tell me to download the ai app similar to WhatsApp. You can call and talk on it and stuff like that and create groups all over it. So I do, like, about an hour and fifteen minute interview panel of, like, four or five people asking me all kinds of stuff.
Speaker: 0
01:56:20
I answered best I could, best I prepared for, and then they gave me a twenty four hour rest period. So they said, now that you know what we are, we’re gonna give you twenty four hours to think about if you sana be a part of us, and we want twenty four hours to think about it.
Speaker: 0
01:56:33
But this is what they told me accelerationism was. They said, acceleration is they call it siege culture, kind of barreling off the book, but they do not believe there’s a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is either gonna collapse on its own or ram man made events, and they wanna speed that up.
Speaker: 0
01:56:53
The group I was in was calling that boogaloo, the boogaloo. And everything always ends with an ethno state. Now it’s not saying they the groups that I was in, they weren’t gonna take over the entire United States, but they the group I was in, one section was looking at property and land in the Appalachian Mountains.
Speaker: 0
01:57:09
1 section of the base was looking at the Upper Peninsula Of Michigan. 1 section of the base had property in Pacific Northwest. So, you get in there, you start learning that ideology. But again, in the beginning, I’m just ingratiating. I don’t I mean, we know they’ve been saying crazy stuff ai, but is it illegal per se? No.
Speaker: 0
01:57:30
But are they planning on taking steps to do some bad things? And that goes back to that domestic terrorism culture. You go in Telegram or whatever. You I mean, you’ve got your your Terrence and your Brevix, and they’re on their four Chan, eight Chan, and they’re posting right before they go and commit all the murders.
Speaker: 0
01:57:48
You know? Here I am. I’m going live. Watch this. Christ. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:57:52
So but imagine being in law enforcement and trying to look at all these thousands of posts and trying to figure out, well, which one’s actually gonna follow through? Which one is seriously planning on doing something? So you always gotta stay vigilant and keep going after it.
Speaker: 1
01:58:08
So what were these guys planning on doing? What was their their accelerate moment?
Speaker: 0
01:58:13
Well, per the siege culture, they like to do, like, guerrilla warfare tactics. So they’re against the Charlottesville stuff, being in a group, picket signs, screaming vatsal slurs, you know, all this stuff. They’re against that. That. They’re like, that’s stupid. You know, number one, you’re making yourself a arya, you’re not doing anything. It’s more guerrilla warfare tactics where, let’s say over here in Austin, power grid goes down.
Speaker: 0
01:58:38
Over here, train gets derailed. Over here, water systems poisoned. Anything to create chaos and killing of anybody left. Anti fash, non ai, very anti semitic, very like way more than it ai kinda opened my eyes when I started getting into some of these neo Nazis because for the most part, I thought when I thought racism, I thought white against black.
Speaker: 0
01:59:04
Right? But these these neo Nazis groups I was in, man, they are they are anti Semitic, man. They cannot stand Jews. Wow. It’s ai like it’s sickening if you if you listen to it. But, again, they want that Hitler. They want Hitler back.
Speaker: 0
01:59:19
I mean, some of these guys were, like, talking about concave earth, hollow earth, Hitler’s still alive. He’s in hollow earth. He’s with giant white men who are Anglo, white with red hair, and fifteen plus foot tall. And I’m like and I go, so where are these fifteen foot tall white guys? And they’re like, well, they’re in the Middle Earth with Hitler. They’re waiting.
Speaker: 0
01:59:42
And I go, for what? If we’re gonna
Speaker: 1
01:59:44
take contracts.
Speaker: 0
01:59:46
Yeah. Come on, man. Let’s do this. Let’s take this thing down. And sometimes I’m just comical with them. You’re like, hey. We’re we’re here in Nazareth. Yeah. We’re gonna get to ethno state. Yeah. We’re ready for the boogaloo. Yeah. We’re building our kit. Yeah. Who’s gonna be Hitler?
Speaker: 0
01:59:57
And everybody goes, are you gonna be one, buddy? Are we gonna fight it out right now? Who’s gonna win this thing? But what happened with the base is a lot of them were into the pagan, and I I say this loosely. I have plenty of friends that are pagan.
Speaker: 0
02:00:16
Satru, and and they are great people. Love it. What do
Speaker: 1
02:00:23
you mean by pagan?
Speaker: 0
02:00:25
Like the like a so there’s different pantheons, but the most common one is Norse Norse mythology. Sai basically the, you know, especially the Marvel universe.
Speaker: 1
02:00:38
So they worship ancient Oh,
Speaker: 0
02:00:40
yeah. Bryden, Thor, whatever.
Speaker: 1
02:00:42
Really?
Speaker: 0
02:00:43
Yeah. Oh, yeah, man. Like, there’s a church for that? Well, I ai wanna say a church per se, but, yeah, the whole block. A block is just think Ai kind of stuff. The ones that do it that are serious, they they’re upset that white supremacists have taken their stuff and used it.
Speaker: 0
02:00:59
But if you look at Hitler, Hitler was already looking into that Norse mythology too. He has, you know, he had looking for Thor’s hammer or whatever, the holy grail biblical and all this stuff. But there’s there’s Christian identity, which is making a comeback in the white supremacy realm, not to be confused with Christianity.
Speaker: 0
02:01:18
Christian identity is, if you can wrap your mind around this, they a lot of them have a it’s the dual seed line belief. So they take the story of the bryden Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the serpent, and the fruit of the forbidden tree. They take that story and they say, okay.
Speaker: 0
02:01:35
It’s still the sai, except the fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act with the serpent who is a man of color, also known as Satan. And then when Satan sleeps with Eve, their offspring is Cain and they are the mud race from then on. That’s what they call it, meh race, non ai.
Speaker: 0
02:01:54
Mud race from then on down, but the procreation from Adam and Eve is Abel and that’s the pure white race. That’s just one of the many belief systems. So when you see I know. Right? Yeah. I’m, like, shaking my head, like, what the fuck? Well, how did you get that?
Speaker: 1
02:02:11
What what are they using as, like, references? Like, how do they get this information?
Speaker: 0
02:02:15
So as far back as that I ai. I’m sure it came out earlier, but there was the Arya Nation, Reverend Butler, Red Ray Fair and all that stuff, and they taught that. They taught the Christian ai. Church of Jesus Christ Christian. And they take that and twist it, you know, as if Jesus is just a white guy.
Speaker: 1
02:02:33
And so did you physically meet with these guys Mhmm. And infiltrate their organization?
Speaker: 0
02:02:39
Yeah. Some of some of those, yes. And the Christian identity was kinda in the clan belief that I that I was in for a short moment. But the the pagan, they’re just like I said that the Christian identity takes the ai and twists it, then the paganism is taken Norse mythology or if you’re an Egyptian pantheon or whatever, and they’re twisting toward their white supremacy.
Speaker: 0
02:03:01
And that’s not what paganism really is. If you know ai, again, I’ve got friends that do it. They’re upset with white supremacists using their stuff. But then again, in the base, there was a guy who was an Sartre Priest and he led the first blood I ever attended, b l o t, which is kinda like the worship ceremony, for pagans.
Speaker: 0
02:03:22
I mean, we’re down there with our shirts off, wiping blood on our chest, drinking mead as if we’re ai, and then, pray into our gods. And they would take, wood, carved wood, and they would carve runes and, like, white supremacy symbols in it. And we would cut ourselves and bleed on the runes and then set that on fire and pray until the fire went out. Woah. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:03:47
And that was kinda of
Speaker: 1
02:03:48
these guys are out there in the world?
Speaker: 0
02:03:50
I don’t know. I mean, there’s there’s academia and stuff that they’re ai, there’s millions of white supremacists and Nazis are gonna be on your doorstep tomorrow. I’m not gonna say that.
Speaker: 1
02:03:59
Well, they wanna call everything white supremacy, which is a real problem because there’s actual white supremacy out there. Yeah. And when you call everything white supremacists
Speaker: 0
02:04:07
Just somebody disagreeing or having a different belief system.
Speaker: 1
02:04:09
Watching a video of a a fucking crazy professor who’s saying that marriage is white supremacist. It’s the craziest video of all time. This is undercover video where they they interviewed this lady and she where they were asking her questions and she didn’t know she’s being recorded. She’s a professor.
Speaker: 0
02:04:25
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:04:26
Ai, marriage is thin privilege. It’s white supremacy. It’s, you know, male privilege, which leads to white supremacy sana white privilege and, like, just sai bunch of gobbledygook nonsense words that she was attaching to just people getting married.
Speaker: 0
02:04:41
Clearly, she’s not a Christ follower because if you if you follow the Bible Yeah. It lays out what marriage is.
Speaker: 1
02:04:46
Yeah. Well, she’s definitely not.
Speaker: 0
02:04:47
She’s a
Speaker: 1
02:04:47
kook. But it’s the problem is calling everything white supremacy, it kind of it obscures the fact that there’s really people ai the people that you’re running into. Mhmm. They’re real. Yeah. And It’s just ai how many of them and where are they?
Speaker: 0
02:05:05
Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Ai say I don’t know about hundreds of thousands, but I’d say thousands. Yeah. Because a lot of times, if you’re in that community and you’re looking let’s say this is a Ram channel over here and it’s tyler wave or whatever it is before it was taken down.
Speaker: 0
02:05:18
And you see all these monikers, like I was pale horse in the ai. I was pale horse that was my moniker and then you see pestilence and you see TMB, the militant Buddhist sana you see helter skelter and you sai, well, you might go to another group maybe they’ve changed their moniker but you start realizing, hey.
Speaker: 0
02:05:35
Did you used to be pest once another channel? Yeah. That’s me. Alright. You know what I mean? Right.
Speaker: 0
02:05:40
But what’s scary is, like, in that base case, ai I said before, I’m a tactical instructor, firearms instructor. I’m an alert instructor, which is right near where we’re at right now, in San Marcos, Texas. And but you can’t go undercover and help these, help these guys train or help them get better because they might be doing bad things.
Speaker: 0
02:06:08
So I go in, I had my whole backstory, former skinhead, former biker, and my skill set was like hand to hand combat. Could I shoot? Yeah. But I’ll let them lead me. We went out there and the first time we did tactical and firearms training, it was led by a 19 year old kid and it was good. It was good.
Speaker: 0
02:06:29
And he’s not military and I’m like, I’m watching, Ai like, where the hell did you learn this? So a lot of stuff happens on gaming systems because they’re so realistic now. Wow. Yeah. I mean, these kids, you can go on and if you got your mic on, you might get your butt handed to you by an 11 year old kid who’s telling you to clear the hard corner and slice the pie.
Speaker: 0
02:06:47
They’re using the same verbiage. And I’m like, holy ram. You know? Virtual world meets real world. Wow. Only problem is is in the virtual world, you get to respawn.
Speaker: 0
02:06:55
Not so much in the real world, you know. I’m gonna respawn now. But, yeah, he meh it and they were shooting fast and accurate. They it wasn’t the best. They were mistakes. But I was impressed with how safe they were, the two guys running at TMB and Pestilence, because that was a concern for me.
Speaker: 0
02:07:14
Ai, if you could see the aerial footage, like, when we first go out there and they’re shooting, I’m way back behind them because I’m like, I don’t know how these people are. Right. Right. I’ve seen plenty of bad shooters doing some stupid things on the ai. And then we start working like that.
Speaker: 0
02:07:28
So I start gaining their trust, do a couple of blots, hikes, drinking, rucking, whatever. And then it starts, we’re finding out a little bit more, not necessarily necessarily anything criminal, except for the fact that there was a Canadian, who was part of their basically, it’s like it would be like their National Guard, but he got doxxed.
Speaker: 0
02:07:54
And for the listeners that don’t know, doxxing, basically, is being outed. So a lot of these accelerationist groups are big on putting up flyers and stickers. They go by and they slap up stickers everywhere, you know, join the sai your race, join the base with a QR code. You scan that QR code, it takes you right to bitch shoot to a video of us of a propaganda propaganda recruitment video we filmed in Georgia Wow.
Speaker: 0
02:08:18
Of us shooting and everything. And so there’s one in Canada. He puts up ai. Somebody answers it, to make again, it’s more in-depth in the book, but he meets this guy. The guy does the same panel kind of thing I did, but then he gets vetted face to face.
Speaker: 0
02:08:37
So when you get vetted face to face, it’s gonna be a little bit more intense. They do a face to face vetting of this guy, and he says, the the punish snake was the moniker. His name is Patrick Matthews. He was up there, and he vetted him face to face and said he’s good to go.
Speaker: 0
02:08:53
So after about a week to two weeks, tops, in the main chat group, this dude bails. And it turns out that he was a journalist in Canada who went on his own and met Patrick, Matthews and infiltrated, at least to a certain degree, the base. And then he puts out in a big news article up there that this guy is Patrick Matthews. And so Pat, Ram comes to his house, takes his guns.
Speaker: 0
02:09:22
He gets booted from the National Guard thing, loses his job. His parents don’t like him anymore, and they they lose him. They found his truck near the border of The United States. So we’re all looking for him. And you have to realize that on the base case, let’s just say you’ve got 40 targets.
Speaker: 0
02:09:40
Well, they’re all over the world, a lot of them in The United States. Well, every one of those FBI field offices are open separate cases, but we’re all trying to work together because it’s the same group. And, we get to a point to where I’m sorry. We were looking for, Patrick Matthews, and there’s an unbelievable case agent.
Speaker: 0
02:10:02
We had we had several on the case, but Nate Plew was running, the case out of out of, Seattle because the leader of the base had property in in Seattle’s territory. But there was a case agent named Rashid who’s out of Baltimore, and he’s running for the guys there. Rashid was able to figure out by some unbelievable phone analysis.
Speaker: 0
02:10:27
When Patrick came into The United States and we’re tracking, we’re all looking for him. We think we might know where he’s at, and I show up at a training in North Georgia, in Rome, Georgia, and he’s there. When I pulled up, I see vehicles and I’m counting the heads under the under the barn and I’m like, there’s one extra person. I know that’s that person’s car.
Speaker: 0
02:10:48
And I said, well, Ai see when I walk up. I walk up and by then his hair had all grown out and had a red bushy beard and he’s like, soon as he started talking, it was a Canadian accent. And I was like, hey, man. Welcome to The United States, brother. So now we had him there.
Speaker: 0
02:11:00
And now we’re starting to find out a little bit more about death plots and this, that, and the other, but is it just drunk talk or are they actually planning on doing something?
Speaker: 1
02:11:07
Right.
Speaker: 0
02:11:07
And then that’s when we get to the, the the big Halloween of two thousand nineteen hate camp. And there was base members that came in from all over The United States. And, again, what I’ve done some pagan blocks with them. Like I said, cut yourself. I remember the the first time I did it, I’m I was like, damn it. Why didn’t I bring my own knife?
Speaker: 0
02:11:32
And, that when it was time to cut your finger, the tip of their knife was broken. And I’m like, well, I’m not gonna slice my damn arm open, my vatsal. I’m not gonna slice my finger up, and I’m trying to stab my finger to bleed with a broken tip. Note to self, bring your own knife next time.
Speaker: 0
02:11:48
So I did. But we’re doing Halloween. We’re there, and I doze off. We’ve already done hand to hand combat, some ai stuff, had a couple of drinks, and I’m charging my phone in my truck. It’s really cold, so I kinda doze off. I wake up to pounding on my window. Bell horse. Bell horse. You gotta get up. You gotta see this.
Speaker: 0
02:12:08
You gotta see this. I’m like, what’s going on? And they’re like, man. Remember us talking about a sacrifice and a goat? I’m like, yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:12:16
And they go, we got the goat. So I get out, and there’s this Ram in the back of one of the meh trucks. They had gone not far away to a house that had three rams, and they all dressed up. And and I’ll paint the picture for you because the clothing the the camouflage pattern that the base wore was fleckedarn because fleckedarn pattern is German.
Speaker: 0
02:12:44
Again, Howell Hitler ai of stuff. So they went where balaclavas cover everything up. They hop fences, steal this ram, and bring it back to the farm in Rome, Georgia. So I wake up, and I walk out there, and this thing’s crapping all over the bed of the truck. And one of the members, pretty big fella, he says, man, this thing’s shitting everywhere.
Speaker: 0
02:13:04
And I said, well, hell, I would be too if I just got kidnapped by a bunch of dudes and fleck arya and balaclavas. You know? So now we’re ai of preparing, and I’m thinking, man, are we really gonna do this? And I walked over to the ai. His he he went by Eisen, and he was gonna be leading the block.
Speaker: 0
02:13:22
And Eisen says, I I go over to him and I go, man, is it is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? And he says, you can’t let the goat hear you say that. And I’m like, okay. Do tell. And he’s like, he goes, this is a sacrifice to Odin.
Speaker: 0
02:13:38
This this this is a beautiful sacrifice. We love this ram. We love this goat, whatever the hell it was. They we love it, and we’re showing it love, and it is being blessed to go to Valhalla and meet Odin. So the rule was, everybody leave your weapons, and we’re gonna go down to the holy spot and deep in the woods. Hundred acre farm, by the way.
Speaker: 0
02:14:00
And we’re walking down there, and the goats just making all kinds of racket. And we get down I’m sorry. I should let me rewind just a little bit. I’m trying to figure out in my head, should I do this, or should I just blow the case right now? And I’m thinking, well, they said they took the goat. Okay. So that’s theft of an animal. That’s not federal. Ai, like, trying to go through my head.
Speaker: 0
02:14:25
So I go to my truck, and I lean into one of my devices. And I’m like, hey. If y’all can hear me because when I was out in the field, I’m covered. So for that four day hate camp, they were covering me twenty four seven running shifts, they being law enforcement. And I go and I go, hey.
Speaker: 0
02:14:46
If y’all can hear me, I’m pretty sure we’re getting ready to go down here and sacrifice this animal. And I’m running it through my brain, and I know they said they stole it, but I can’t come up with a good enough reason to stop this right now. If you guys don’t want me to do this, you gotta send me a sign and let me know. And I waited and I waited, and it was crickets.
Speaker: 0
02:15:08
And then I said, okay. I guess I’m going down to the woods. So we go down there. You had your chance. Ai was waiting. Oh my god.
Speaker: 0
02:15:19
So we go down to the woods, and we get there. And I don’t know how. I ended up at the back of the goat. We’re in a circle around the goat, and I’m at the back of it. And Ai, who’s leading the block, is talking about we’re gonna be starting the wild hunt.
Speaker: 0
02:15:36
In Norse mythology, the wild hunt is basically Odin and a bunch of other gods going out in the middle of the night and whipping the crap out every other god that they didn’t like or whatever. And the twisted version of the base, starting the wild hunt was gonna start with the sacrifice of this goat, which he named Gar.
Speaker: 0
02:15:52
His middle name was Garfield, named after his grandfather. To show love to the goat, he named it Gar after his grandfather. Okay. So he says, once we commit we do sacrifice and it goes to Valhalla that that the ai hunt will start, but the wild hunt was gonna be cleansing the world of nonwhites.
Speaker: 1
02:16:15
So the goat was the start of this whole
Speaker: 0
02:16:19
Wild hunt. The Wild Hunt. It’s it’s in North Mesology. It’s called the Wild Hunt. But, again, they’re twisting it Right. Ai white supremacy beliefs. So he’s got this, like, machete type object, and, I’m at the back of the goat, and he’s going through it. He was he sana his ode and prayer, and he he didn’t leave the block near as good as the actual Asatru priest that did it before, but he’s trying.
Speaker: 0
02:16:41
And he’s going back with this, he’s going back with this machete. And I’m holding the back of the goat, and somebody’s holding the front of the goat. He’s coming down. He’s practicing practicing, and he’s a pretty stocky kid. And ai, somebody says, just do it.
Speaker: 0
02:16:56
Man, he rears back with all of his strength and comes down ai on the back of the neck of the goat. I don’t even know if it broke a hair, Joe. I don’t know if it’s because the back ram of the goat was so thick or the blade was dull, but when he hit it, all you heard was. And I and and the last split second, I’m holding the back of the gate, and I go, oh, man. I just saw blood. I just pictured something bad happening.
Speaker: 0
02:17:19
And then somebody says, does anybody got a gun? Do you hear? Do it again. Do it again. If I take two swings, and you hear ai got a gun.
Speaker: 0
02:17:26
Well, I told you, we weren’t supposed to bring any weapons down. Well, this one cat who was probably the least qualified person to be carrying a firearm anywhere within miles of us sai, yeah. I got mine. And we were like, what are you doing with your gun? So TMB takes the gun, hands it to Aizen.
Speaker: 0
02:17:46
Aizen, we’re still all our knees in a circle around the goat for this sacrifice. Aizen points the gun at the goat, goat’s head, and then turns the opposite way.
Speaker: 1
02:17:55
Oh, Jesus.
Speaker: 0
02:17:56
And that’s when the instructor enemy comes out. I’m like, woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. He’s like, what? I go, look at what you’re shooting at, man. We’re all in a circle. The hell are you doing? So then he chambers around and gets up close. Pow. Even on recording, you need to go hit the ground.
Speaker: 0
02:18:12
Well, Sai was sitting there twitching. It’s been, like, two, three minutes. It’s still twitching. And I’m like, hey. Why don’t you go, put another bullet in the ram?
Speaker: 0
02:18:23
He’s like, I think it’s dead. And I go, I’m just saying, for the love of the goat and it being happy in Valhalla, let’s give it a good clean kill. I’m trying to use this logic again. Yeah. And, he puts another one in it, and then somebody says, yeah. It’s definitely dead. So you think it’s over. No.
Speaker: 0
02:18:42
It’s not over. Now they slice the goat’s throat and fill a cup with all of his blood, and one of the guys had brought a sheet of acid. Ai had brought a sheet of acid. Oh, boy. Yeah. Right? Supposed to help with the shaman, which is kinda entering the spirit world during your block.
Speaker: 0
02:18:58
You’re gonna get high. And, I’m shining the light because it’s pitch dark. We’re in the middle of the woods. And I’m shining the light Verizon. He’s going around, and what’s happening is is he’s tearing off a tab. Not everybody did it.
Speaker: 0
02:19:12
Of course, I didn’t do it, but he tears off a tab, puts it under its tongue. Some people haven’t even done it before. And then you chase it down with the blood of the goat. Oh, boy. Part of the sacrifice. So he he gets around. Some people do it.
Speaker: 0
02:19:23
Most people do it. A couple of us didn’t. And then it gets to me. And I’m looking at the the cup full of blood, and by the time by this time, it’s coagulating. It’s all cloddy.
Speaker: 0
02:19:36
And I’m looking at it, and, and I’m like, oh, man. I do not wanna turn that up. I really don’t wanna turn it up. And, I think it was pestilence that gave me an out. He said, man, you can just taste.
Speaker: 0
02:19:48
So I stuck my finger all the way down in the blood, pulled it out, sucked all the blood off my finger. And that was my way of dealing with the sacrifice. Not exactly fear factor stuff, but I would’ve sucked it. I would’ve been good on that show except for the gross stuff. But yeah. But disgusting.
Speaker: 0
02:20:04
So over the next, actually, the next day of training was completely obliterated because everybody 90% of the members were all still high, been up all night on acid. So we couldn’t train the next day, and I was pissed. I told him, like, this is a wasted freaking day. I said, these sons you know, I was just giving him a hard time. And then, by Saturday, we were back training again.
Speaker: 0
02:20:24
And then by Sunday night oh, I’m sorry. Friday, we were training again. And by Saturday night, we, did a bunch more training through the day, like, you know, navigating the land, living off the living off the land, building bunkers and stuff like that. And then it’s time to shoot some more for the propaganda video. So we go back down in the woods.
Speaker: 0
02:20:49
And at this now we’re doing a bonfire at the holy spot, and we are burning American flags, and we’re burning holy bibles, while everybody’s yelling, f your Jewish god, death to America, stuff like that. And I remember the one kid that was pretty clumsy. He almost fell in the fire trying to light the flag on fire.
Speaker: 0
02:21:12
And in the video, you can see me grab the other side. Part of me wanted to just let him fall. You know? Just seeing him go I I don’t know if he went up in flames or not, but, a little Darwinism. But I hold the flag. We burn the American flag.
Speaker: 0
02:21:25
We’re screaming all vatsal, and and they take they take, holy Bibles. And they this is on the video. They lay them face down in the ai, and I watched the fire go up. It’s coming back down. We’ve been there a minute. Hell, yeah. High fiving. White power.
Speaker: 0
02:21:41
All this stuff. And it’s coming back down. And if you’ve ever seen, like, like ai book in a fire, all these pages, they get that it just it looks a certain ai, kinda ashy. Well, the one guy, the Canadian guy, he he he can’t not screw with the fire. He’s over there. He’s probably still got an estimate system. Who knows?
Speaker: 0
02:22:01
He’s still poking the fire like, oh, man. Sai he’s stoking it back up. Well, while he’s trying to stoke it back up, he flipped something over, a ai opens face up, and there’s nothing burned on it at all. Like, the outside’s charred, but there’s not a single page burnt. And I’m like, okay. That’s different. So he’s trying to get it started.
Speaker: 0
02:22:24
He he starts tearing page by page, gets it on fire, bonfire goes back up. We’re all doing our thing, bonfire comes back down. He’s poking the coals again. I’ll be damned if another Bible doesn’t flip open completely unburned. And I watched them put it on that face first.
Speaker: 0
02:22:39
Now I know some people with ai and they’re like, well, in a lot of Bibles, the page is made out of clay and they don’t burn. But listen, I watched the flag burn. I watched all that stuff burn. And I actually have a picture that if you blow it up I didn’t realize it. I was just taking pictures like everybody else was taking pictures.
Speaker: 0
02:22:55
But Ai I was in my hotel room one night just going through my pictures and I blew it up and you can clearly see holy ai in the flames. So I’m a believer. My faith is huge throughout the book. I wouldn’t have not have been able to do any of it in my opinion. But I remember when that second Ai flipped open, one of the one of the base members ai, he goes, man, these effing Bibles just won’t burn.
Speaker: 0
02:23:21
And I remember I did it very nonchalantly, maybe only in my head, but I did a little Sammy Sosa, you know, to the sky. You know? I’m like, yeah. You get them, Lord. Yeah. I’m like, yeah. That’s funny.
Speaker: 0
02:23:33
By the way, if you wanna blow everybody up, y’all just let Scotty know when I’ll be real still right now. But, yeah. So after that week, I kinda said I I got a pretty dumb sense of humor, but I got back to the office, and I said, man, I’ve been doing undercover work off and on since 1996.
Speaker: 0
02:23:48
And I said, I know my skill set takes me to different places and other people. I said, but I have never had to burn Bibles, burn an American flag, and I ram sure it wasn’t with a group of people that went out and stole a goat and sacrificed it at a pagan ritual and drank his blood.
Speaker: 0
02:24:03
I said, I’ve done that in three days with these guys. And, I mean, I felt weird. I felt weird when I got back. I just, you know, I I call I even texted my pastor. I’m like, I need you to say it pretty much.
Speaker: 0
02:24:13
I I just felt, I don’t know, dirty, something around. Yeah. Felt weird. You know?
Speaker: 1
02:24:18
Which is weird that guys like that exist and organize and find other guys like that and get together.
Speaker: 0
02:24:22
It’s all mine. It’s it’s this phone.
Speaker: 1
02:24:25
I know.
Speaker: 0
02:24:25
Listen. A lot of these kids were young. I say kids because I I it was the first alias I ever did where I made myself younger. My whole FBI career, I was always two years older. It was just easy to remember. I mean, I turned 40 with the outlaws. So when I turned 40 two years later in real life and I’m in meh wherever I was at meh calendar or Tennessee, I’m like, yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:24:49
My other party was a little better. I’m not gonna lie. I’m like, you know, the Outlaws party was I mean, thank you guys for throwing me a party, but it’s not really nothing compared to when I turned 40 two years ago. But for the base, I had to hustle and get in there fast because we were getting calls from World Working Partners because, again, this is online.
Speaker: 0
02:25:07
You hop in those groups, there’s people from South Africa, Australia, UK, Norway, you name it, and they’re all because it’s online. Now they may not be able to get weapons ai we got weapons, but they were even planning on flying in The States and doing some hate crime. I mean, hate crime. Well, I’m sure we’d be doing hate crimes, but hate camp. But they dive in.
Speaker: 0
02:25:28
And what I saw a lot of is younger younger guys, outcasts Yeah. Don’t have a job, can’t get a partner. You know? And they just dive down this rabbit hole. They they’ve probably been bullied, and they dive down this rabbit hole of hate.
Speaker: 0
02:25:48
And it’s always it seems like it goes back to, like, gangs and cults and stuff like that. They’re try it’s that need to belong, and they wanna bring you in, and that’s how they get you.
Speaker: 1
02:25:57
Yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:25:58
And then power and then and being inclusive, having having people with your own like mind. But that’s not just on the white supremacy side. Same thing’s happening on the Islamic, radical Islamic side. Yeah. They’re they’re, radicalizing you online, inundating you with videos. You could go into Gab.
Speaker: 0
02:26:16
I don’t even know if Gab’s still around, but you could go into Gab, and there would be a group called fourteen words. Well, that’s the fourteen words coined by David Lane. It is it is famous in the white supremacy culture. It says something to be ai, I don’t have it memorized anymore. As I sai, a lot of times when I’m speaking, I go, hey. Just so you guys know.
Speaker: 0
02:26:32
I appreciate the questions. But since I retired, I made a conscious decision not to hang out with white supremacists anymore. Probably good decision. Saying. I mean, I appreciate you asking me, but Were
Speaker: 1
02:26:43
they the wackiest people that you were around?
Speaker: 0
02:26:47
It’s gonna be close.
Speaker: 1
02:26:48
It’s gonna Well, obviously, the pedophiles are the most
Speaker: 0
02:26:50
Well, yeah, but it’s gonna be close. But the the I don’t wanna say I’m not easily shocked. It’s just that, I mean, you see so much stuff. It’s it’s ai, again, it’s that proverbial, coroner who shows up eating a sandwich where brains are everywhere because they’ve seen them. They gotta eat. You know?
Speaker: 0
02:27:11
They’re just used to it. So there’s there’s definitely been some wacky things. I mean, on the case agent side, that stuff on the border was pretty wacky. But undercover wise, these guys, I mean, they’re I don’t know about calling them wacky, but just they were planted. I mean, we what we did is we uncovered violent we we uncovered several murder plots.
Speaker: 0
02:27:33
They had found a couple that they believe were an ant Antifa couple, a couple of counties over in in Georgia, and we went and cased the place. The idea was it arya, it took it it took a while to come to fruition because it changed a couple of ai. But, essentially, what was agreed upon is that we were all gonna beat the Georgia sale.
Speaker: 0
02:27:55
When I say sale, it’s c e l l, which ai the way, it’s probably a good time to sai. The base, in Arabic is Al Qaeda. Oh, wow. So Al Qaeda wanted to have three to five man sales, c e l l, and I got a redneck accent, sales all over the world waiting on that d day call. Well, the base, which stands for Al Qaeda, wanted three to five man cells all over the world waiting for the boogaloo. Wow. You’ve got kids.
Speaker: 0
02:28:26
21 year old has no car, has no job, but has an arsenal in his closet. He’s wearing plate carriers with the same plate carriers that FBI SWAT team wears. It’s not cheap stuff. And however they’re getting their money, either from parents or whatever they’re doing, they are building their kit for what they refer to as the day, the set off of the race war.
Speaker: 0
02:28:49
So we uncovered those murder plots. I remember Helter Skelter, we got to postpone it because once we figured out they were trying to kill people, man, we gotta slow this thing down and make sure we’ve got control of it. Much like a murder for hire. If you’re hiring me to kill somebody, I wanna make sure that I got the contract sai you’re not out trying to find somebody else to kill this person. Right.
Speaker: 0
02:29:09
So, we were riding out there and, Helter had not seen the house yet. And and Helter I’ll tell you the plan in a second. Helter, we’re riding out there and Helter goes, hey. If you don’t mind, man, I I’d really like to pop my cherry on this one. Well, you and I here pop my cherry, it probably means something different. Because I was like, what the what are you talking about?
Speaker: 0
02:29:32
And then, Luke TMB told meh, he goes, I think he actually wants to participate in the killing. And he said, man, I’ve been waiting for this for two years. He goes, I actually wanna be I wanna put one of the bullets in their head. And then I said, well, it’s a 22, 20 five, whatever with the silencer on it. It meh take more than one. Shouldn’t be a big deal.
Speaker: 0
02:29:49
But the idea was and this is how much this is how much research was done. We’re gonna go to a campsite. We’re gonna leave everything electronic there. We’re gonna leave from there. We’re gonna have a a car that doesn’t come back in by rental car, whatever, fake plates, whatever.
Speaker: 0
02:30:04
We’re gonna go to a pay by the hour hotel. We’re a motel. We’re gonna go there. We’re gonna scrub and scrub and wash and wash to get any flakes of skin that may be loose to come off. As detailed as Vaseline on your eyebrows, facial hair sai you don’t drop any kind of Sana, tape up kinda like WMD.
Speaker: 0
02:30:23
We’re gonna tape our jacket to our gloves, our pants to our boots so nothing can leak out. He had Luke had even done so much research. He had read that a lot of people who who kill somebody for the first time lose control of their bowels. So he was suggesting we all wear depends while we go commit the murder.
Speaker: 0
02:30:41
I didn’t tell him I’d ever kill anybody, but I looked at him and said, I think I’m okay. I don’t need to wear depends. So that was the thing. And then we were gonna go into the house, breach our way in, murder whoever’s there, because it was like, are there any kids there? Helter’s like, I don’t have a problem killing the commie kid. Now Helter kinda looked like a normal guy, had a computer IT job.
Speaker: 0
02:31:04
He said that was a great cover for him because because everybody thinks he’s just a normal person in society. This is a guy who also told meh. He said, again, they want to accelerate the downfall. This guy told meh. He said, I voted for Hillary Clinton. And I was like, I’m in here with neo Nazis.
Speaker: 0
02:31:23
They threw me off guard. I’m like, why why would you do that? And he goes, think about it, bro. He said, we wanna accelerate the collapse of society. He goes, if she gets in, they usually try to defund the police. They make our military weaker. There’s gonna be riots.
Speaker: 0
02:31:39
There’s gonna be all this stuff, and there’s just gonna be chaos. It’ll help speed up the downfall of society. Wow. That’s how that’s what they’re thinking is. So we got that murder plot going on, and then you have the Canadian guy and his cell up in, actually, it was it would have been can’t go back, which is Ai Laemmle.
Speaker: 0
02:32:00
They had a cell up in the Maryland area. And I went up and I I I trained with them, and they, at that point in time, sai it would have been coming up to January of twenty twenty. There was gonna be a huge second amendment rally in Virginia because the governor at the time was pretty liberal, did not like guns, and was gonna be making a lot of, was trying to crack down on guns, second amendment.
Speaker: 0
02:32:25
So the idea of those base members was, what if that’s the set off of the boogaloo? What if while all those people are there, you’ve got three percenters, which is not illegal. You got militia, which is not illegal, but you’ve got people wanting to do nefarious things most likely. You got cops. What if we just pop a couple of rounds?
Speaker: 0
02:32:41
Nobody know who’s shooting at who and everybody and maybe that’s the kickoff of of the boogaloo. Again, there’s not a lot of forethought and afterthought with these guys. It’s like, what do you what about the national I mean, what about army, navy, air force, and ai about freaking cops? You know, we’ll deal with that.
Speaker: 0
02:32:58
What about girlfriends? I ask them. I go, you know, I hear you guys talking about procreation all the time. I don’t see any women. I got a woman.
Speaker: 0
02:33:04
She’s not for shah. And they’re like, oh, we’ll just rape them. And I go, I’m sorry. I’m sorry? What? Because, yeah. We’re just gonna rape the women.
Speaker: 0
02:33:12
On when d day happens and it’s the bug look, yeah, we’re just gonna take the women and rape them. I kinda giggled and I said, you guys don’t have a lot of experience with women, do you? And they’re like, why? And I go, well, that stuff might work for a little while, but sooner or later, you’re gonna have to go to sleep.
Speaker: 0
02:33:28
You might wake up missing some parts you went to bed with. I’m like, what are you talking about? But we uncovered all that, and we got, enough evidence against them that everybody was happy. And, the week of the takedown I’m sorry. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:33:42
It would have been close to the week of the takedown. I had to postpone it. Ai had a lumbar fusion in 02/2002. What I didn’t know I thought it was just my disc, a bulging disc or something. What I didn’t know is that fusion had broken free.
Speaker: 0
02:33:55
And for about fifteen years, I just had nothing. I had no disc. The cadaver bone dissipated. So my back was spasming really, really bad. Like, I couldn’t get out of the floor. So, I took some prednisone, got off the floor with electric ram.
Speaker: 0
02:34:10
I just had we had to postpone it for a week. So then I went. And on a Friday, I flew into Baltimore, met the case team, drove up Saturday to Delaware, trained all day with those guys, helped get more information that everybody wanted, came back late to Baltimore, flew to Atlanta, drove up to try to close the deal with, the Georgia crew.
Speaker: 0
02:34:37
And I think I got home Monday for a couple of hours. I went back. Now I’m meeting with the SWAT teams because we’re planning on the takedown. And by Wednesday, I picked up Luke who lived on the hundred acre farm, and we did a ruse where the car, like, my car was messed up. I’m like, did you hear that? Actually, more divine intervention. I was gonna fake that something was wrong with my car and my truck. We’re driving.
Speaker: 0
02:35:00
All of a sudden, someone goes ai like that. And I go, I didn’t run over anything. I go, did you hear that? He said, yes. I swear if that damn brake caliper froze again, I said, let me pull over.
Speaker: 0
02:35:10
Well, I I pulled over the spot Shah team wanted me to, and then we did a ruse. I was I was around the back of the truck looking and ai truck pulls up. I’m like, oh my gosh, man. I can’t believe you’re here. And then I ai in that truck and then the SWAT team and the Bearcats rolling over the hill and they took him without incident.
Speaker: 0
02:35:24
Helter Skelter and pestilence got picked up without incident. We kept all that quiet on Wednesday because come Thursday morning, SWAT teams from Washington field office and Baltimore Field Office were gonna be hitting that crew, so we wanted to keep it quiet. So now Thursday, they get arrested. Now stuff’s starting to come out. I’m still in a chat group.
Speaker: 0
02:35:44
And Friday, I’m watching it, and they’re like, pale horse, are you there? And they’re like, wait a minute. Now the affidavits are starting to come out. It says that it says that there’s a federal undercover agent that infiltrated the base. And And they’re like, who’s the damn Meh in here? And I’m just being quiet.
Speaker: 0
02:35:59
And, somewhere around 05:15, the leader of the base, he went by the monikers Norman Spears and Roman Wolf. His real name is Ronaldo Nazaro. So you can let this sink in. Here’s an American citizen born in America, went to Villanova, was in the army, to my understanding, arya, intel, and he was contracted at some point for some job in the Department of Justice.
Speaker: 0
02:36:23
Now resides in Saint Petersburg, Russia, and I guess he supposedly teaches English. They tried to say the base didn’t have a leader. He’s definitely the leader.
Speaker: 1
02:36:33
Wow.
Speaker: 0
02:36:34
And as a Russian family. So you can do your own speculation there. I’m not working that case anymore.
Speaker: 1
02:36:41
How fucking crazy.
Speaker: 0
02:36:43
Right? What was his red pill moment? Because clearly, if you look at his history, he was kinda on the liberal side. Something happened somewhere, And then he starts spewing crazy stuff. And then the base gets infiltrated by, like, journalists from Ai. Well, then they ai every time the base got infiltrated, they ai their OPSEC more and more.
Speaker: 0
02:37:00
Every propaganda video we did, the rule was it has to be better than the last one because we’re trying to get everybody. And so I’m watching all this roll out. There’s no way a feds in here, this, that, and the other shah blah blah. And then I I see Roman finally respond around, like, five ish on Bryden, and he’s like, I’m not sure we could have found him because he was good.
Speaker: 0
02:37:22
He attended every meeting, which I didn’t. He said he attended every meeting, which maybe that should have been a red flag, but I didn’t attend every training or meeting. And I’m like, okay. He’s figured out it’s me. And then he said something else, and then that was it. It says, boom. You’ve been removed by Roman Wolf.
Speaker: 0
02:37:37
Sai I screenshotted that, and I sent it to all the case teams all over The United States and the headquarters, Ai. And I said, and I’m out. Wow. Yeah. So they went down. That was a that was a wild case.
Speaker: 0
02:37:50
And if you wanna get into, like, the effects on family and stuff, at that point, I mean, we’re talking 2020. I started in ’96 at a state and local level. But my wife, we were dating when I was in Arya. So she was kinda used to, hey. I went out and picked up some hookers and got some cocaine stuff. But, clearly, there were some very rough times, especially during that three year period around the outlaws.
Speaker: 0
02:38:13
But it’s not always easy. But what she says because people always ask, and and the and the spouses do not get enough credit at all. She’s not law enforcement. She’s not desensitized to my world. Right. Shah used to freak out and be nervous when I’d go on undercovers.
Speaker: 0
02:38:30
And what she would do is to help her cook, she moved furniture. I come home and up in the door and trip over stuff. I’m like, what in the how did the couch get who moved that refrigerator? You know, crazy stuff. But one day, what she said is she said, look.
Speaker: 0
02:38:47
She just had to give it up to god. She’s like, I can sit here and worry every day, and I’m gonna I’m gonna kill myself worrying about it. But I essentially don’t have control. I gotta pray that you’re good at what you do. And, and and, you know, if it’s your time to go, he can take me meh time he wants.
Speaker: 0
02:39:04
But finishing the base case is the first time like an idiot. I should have realized it, but I realized after an undercover, I have to decompress. I have to kinda okay. Alright. And I get my mind. Alright. That’s done. Okay. So does she. Right.
Speaker: 0
02:39:19
And we were sitting out on the back porch having a having a adult beverage. I might have been smoking a cigar. But she said something to the effect of, well, something I was at the base, and and and she was like, yeah. I was covering you in prayer. And I kinda giggled. And she’s like she looks at me, and I’m like, what? I mean, we’ve been doing this for a while. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:39:41
I mean, you don’t you don’t have to, like, be worried about meh, worried about me. We’ve been doing this a minute. She jerked a knot in my butt, man. Shah looked at me, stern, and she said, let me tell you something. You are my husband, and I’m your wife, and it’s my job to cover you.
Speaker: 0
02:39:56
And when you’re going on these things, I’m covering you. And I stopped smiling, and I said, I greatly appreciate that. And I’m sorry if I insulted you, but thank you. Wow. Craziness.
Speaker: 1
02:40:08
What a life you’ve had. Well, listen, brother. Thank you very much for being here. It was great talking to you. Great hearing these stories. Fucking amazing. So insane and so interesting.
Speaker: 0
02:40:19
I do have a wacky one. I forgot.
Speaker: 1
02:40:20
Another one?
Speaker: 0
02:40:21
Yeah. You want a wacky? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a murder for hire, basically. Oh. It was, I got hired to do meh and another task force officer who went with me on the undercover. Essentially, they thought we were bikers, and they ended up hiring us to do four home invasions and murder two people. So you sana talk about wacky people?
Speaker: 0
02:40:36
This is towards the end of my career. Her name was Tammy. She gets in. It’s all in the news and the court records. We go and we meet the husband. We thought the husband was the one who wanted to get us, and we were, like, off a dirt road.
Speaker: 0
02:40:50
It’s pretty rough, man. Like, I like walking up to the place. I’m like, hey, man. Watch out. Sharp objects. Sharp objects. TB. MRSA. Right. Right. Right. You know?
Speaker: 0
02:40:59
So we meet him and he’s like, oh, that’s really not my plan. This is my old lady’s plan. Ai go, where’s your old lady? Well, she’s asleep. Well, you’re gonna wake her up? You want me to? I didn’t drive all the way out here to talk to you if you’re not playing it.
Speaker: 0
02:41:13
I’m here to make money. So we pick her up. She comes out, gets in the truck. We start driving around looking at these locations, where they wanted it because they knew some people that were dealing dope. They had the ends on where the guns and the money were, so they thought. And they wanted us to do the home invasions and kill them.
Speaker: 0
02:41:30
But while we’re riding around, she says, if you need somebody tortured, I’m really good in torture. I love torture. I’m driving. She’s in the passenger seat clawing herself. She’s weathered. Jesus. Yeah. She’s weathered, tweaking probably. And, this is how my mind works. So she’s she’s like, yeah. I’m in a torture.
Speaker: 0
02:41:52
She goes, you know, that you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it up a man’s penis and rip it back out and then pour salt in the penis. When other guys in the back of the truck are going, oh my gosh. What she didn’t know was two weeks prior to that, I had my second lumbar fusion, which fixed my first lumbar fusion. That wasn’t the problem.
Speaker: 0
02:42:11
They messed up my privates, and they had to dry cath me. So when she’s talking about this hanger going in and out, I’m kinda feeling. I’m like, I think I know what is similar to that. Sai she says that, and then she says, yeah. And you can take a PVC pipe, and you can run it up somebody’s anus and then run barbed wire up it and rip it out.
Speaker: 0
02:42:30
And I we pull up to a red ai, and I leaned over and I go, why are you so angry? And she’s like, oh, no. I I said, are you sure you don’t wanna kill these people? She’s like, oh, no. I’m too well known. But if you need somebody tortured, I can do it.
Speaker: 0
02:42:43
Then on the next ride or riding to the next place, she says that her husband went on a cocaine bender and she told him never to do that again. Cocaine meh something. She said cocaine, but he’d been gone for three days. She couldn’t find him. He comes home after being high three, four days, and he crashes.
Speaker: 0
02:42:59
She’s so pissed at him. She tells us the story that he’s naked. She takes a two by four, shoves it under his back legs, takes an industrial stapler, and staples his scrotum to the board. He didn’t wake up. That’s how that’s how down he was or his crash was. But when he did, he finds himself hooked to a board, and he’s screaming for help.
Speaker: 0
02:43:19
And she wouldn’t help him. He had to call a friend to do it. So if you think the story is BS, if you think the story is BS, we confirmed it with the husband. He’s like, oh, yeah. Yeah. She did it.
Speaker: 0
02:43:29
I ain’t never had no woman do nothing like that to me before. And I’m like so my buddy in the back, he goes, you really don’t like men, do you? And she’s like, I’ve been unlucky in love. But in my head, Joe, that’s when I’m looking over and I go, these are my people. This is my skill set. This is what I get.
Speaker: 0
02:43:48
I don’t get Wow. Ai don’t get Wall Street. Jesus Christ. Sai, yeah, there’s there’s all kinds of stuff like that, man. Goddamn.
Speaker: 1
02:43:58
That’s a crazy life, brother.
Speaker: 0
02:43:59
Yep. So now now it’s book. I still teach alert. Tell everybody the book. The book is code name Pale Horse, and it’s how I went undercover to expose America’s Nazis. But it’s not just white supremacy. It’s got the outlaws. It’s got personal stuff, the life. There’s murder for ai cases all in there, the pedophile stories in there, there, public corruption cases ai, I mean, some of the ai, like, I got put in a corner.
Speaker: 0
02:44:26
Sai ai. I’m dealing with a guy who’s toothless and a mountain backwoods guy, and and he he beat me at chest that night. And I ended up with a bag of cocaine open shoved in my face. He’s got a sawed off shotgun, a red bone hounds growling in my ai, and he’s like, if I find out you’re the law, you’re a dead man.
Speaker: 0
02:44:44
Do it if you’re not a cop. I had to figure out a way to get out of that. You know? Yeah. So there’s stuff like that all in there.
Speaker: 0
02:44:51
I bonded with that guy too. I you know?
Speaker: 1
02:44:55
That’s part of your skill sai.
Speaker: 0
02:44:56
And when he and when they sent when somebody sent me his obituary, I I felt I felt sad. Wow. This is my last line from him, and, yeah, I think you’ll like it. These are some of the people you deal with. He said, now, Scott, I’m sai speed it up because he was on pills a lot, and he drank all day and did cocaine all day.
Speaker: 0
02:45:11
So it was like constant battle of being pickled. But he’s ai, I I think he died five years before I met him. I ai like, I was like, I’m pretty sure it’s the dope keeping him alive. I think he died. He just didn’t know it yet.
Speaker: 0
02:45:21
But he would be like, now Scott, you know Ai don’t do cocaine anymore. And I go, I know, man. He goes, I used to do boatload of it, but I don’t do it anymore. I sai, I know. And he poured cocaine in his hand.
Speaker: 0
02:45:35
He goes, but this right here, that’s just a bump. And I’m looking going, what? You just did cocaine. And he said, you know, I don’t sell cocaine anymore either. And Ai say, I know, meh. He goes, I used to sell truckloads of it. I said, I know. I know you don’t do it.
Speaker: 0
02:45:52
Now if you need them five ounces, I can get them for you for this much money. And I’m like, I don’t that’s the ai of stuff, man. You gotta find humor in that, but yeah. May he rest in peace.
Speaker: 1
02:46:01
May he rest in peace. Well, thank you, Scott. Thank you for everything. That was a lot of fun.
Speaker: 0
02:46:04
I really appreciate it. I appreciate you, man.
Speaker: 1
02:46:06
And good luck on the book. I guarantee it’s gonna sell like crazy. One more time, Jamie. Throw that up there so everybody can take a look at it. There it is. Code name pale horse. It’s available now. Did you do a audiobook?
Speaker: 0
02:46:18
Yes. I’m sorry. Thank you for saying that. It’s my voice.
Speaker: 1
02:46:21
Thank you.
Speaker: 0
02:46:21
Yeah. It’s my voice. Thank you. Ai was actually, that was something I was told I needed to say. Has to. The sai, yeah, I’ve no offense to the other peers of mine that have done books or just mentor or people that have done it before ram, but if I click on it and I hear, there Ai was in the ai, I’m like, what in the hell?
Speaker: 1
02:46:39
It it that has to be your place
Speaker: 0
02:46:41
to answer. I read the book, and then we’ll see what happens as far as TV and stuff like that.
Speaker: 1
02:46:47
Gonna wanna do something
Speaker: 0
02:46:48
for sure. I did, I’ve been on I’ve again, the tactical stuff. I’ve been in armor on on on movie sets in Tennessee, and, I actually did a cameo. I got one in the movie world, I have one kill under my belt.
Speaker: 1
02:47:01
Alright.
Speaker: 0
02:47:03
But that’s it, man. I’m just ai to pay it forward, still trying to learn, still trying to do good things.
Speaker: 1
02:47:08
Well, tell us the last one. Ai know something good’s gonna come out of this because it’s the story is incredible. Thank you very much.
Speaker: 0
02:47:13
Thank you.
Speaker: 1
02:47:13
Thanks, brother. Thanks for being here. Alright. Bye, everybody ai.
