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#2258 – Steven Rinella Podcast Episode Description
Steven Rinella is an outdoorsman, conservationist, writer, and host of “MeatEater.” Look for his new audio original “MeatEater’s American History: The Mountain Men (1806-1840)” on February 11, 2025. His new show “Hunting History With Steven Rinella” on HISTORY begins on January 28.
www.themeateater.com
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#2258 – Steven Rinella Podcast Episode Summary
Based on the provided reviews and discussions, several key themes emerge regarding Spotify and Amazon:
1. Music and Content Discovery: There is a mixed perception of Spotify’s music recommendation algorithm. Some users find it highly effective and tailored to their tastes, while others feel that the curated playlists and genre-based suggestions are unimpressive and not personalized enough. The quality of music recommendations is noted to have decreased over time for some users.
2. User Experience and Interface: The ease of use and non-clunkiness of Spotify’s interface is highlighted as a positive aspect. However, there are mentions of difficulties in finding content and a lack of updates and new features, which led some users to switch to other services.
3. Social and Collaborative Features: Users express dissatisfaction with Spotify’s social features, such as shared playlists and listening activities, indicating a desire for more robust collaborative tools.
4. Content Variety and Exclusivity: The move towards video content and exclusive deals, such as with Joe Rogan, is seen as a strategic shift for Spotify. While some appreciate the variety, others are critical of exclusivity and prefer open access to content.
5. Ethical and Philosophical Considerations: There is a discussion around Spotify’s stance on censorship and its role in promoting art without interference. This is contrasted with Amazon, where sellers feel abandoned and overshadowed by international competitors.
6. Monetization and Revenue Models: The financial incentives for creators on Spotify, especially with video content, are noted as significant, with some creators earning more from Spotify than other platforms like YouTube.
7. Alternative Services: Some users have switched to other music streaming services that offer better features, more personalization, and a more active approach to new music trends.
8. Cultural and Historical Context: References to the evolution of music consumption from piracy to paid services like Spotify highlight the importance of convenience and accessibility in user adoption.
Overall, the reviews reflect a complex landscape where Spotify is praised for its algorithm and user interface but criticized for its social features, content exclusivity, and perceived decline in music recommendation quality. Amazon faces challenges with seller relations and competition dynamics.
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#2258 – Steven Rinella Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
Speaker: 0
00:01
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
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00:03
The Joe Rogan experience.
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00:06
Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
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00:13
Steve Ranello. That was a long exhale. I needed one. Is this Trump’s chair?
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00:18
He sat in that chair. Yeah.
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00:21
I sana soak up some of the tenacity, man.
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00:24
He’s got a lot of that.
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00:26
It took me a long time, man. It took me a long time to to to see it. Like, I remember people would talk, you know, there’s this thing when he when he emerged on the scene is this thing about, like, toughness.
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00:37
Mhmm.
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00:37
And I’d always ai, like, in my mind, toughness was being able to go through some, like, alder choked hell hole real fast
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00:43
Right.
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00:43
Or hike up a hill.
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00:44
Right.
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00:44
Sai I
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00:45
was ai, that’s not tough. Then ai, I was like, oh. Yeah. Ai, mental toughness. That kinda tough, man.
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00:53
Think about what that guy went through. I mean, he had the entire media, the entire justice system. He had, the the deep state, the central intelligence agency. He had all these people, like, conspiring to take him out. Literally an assassination attempt and then another one. In and out of the news in no ai. Nobody cared.
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01:13
No grace period. No. They they they went they waited about a day, and then they arya talking shit about them again.
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01:19
That’s the thing is out of, when I looked at like, now that I’ve come to understand it better, I’m like ai, the fact that, most people would crawl into a hole. Yeah. You know, after well, I got I got a buddy. I don’t sana say who it is, but he, he had sold his business and he tyler meh, he goes, well, I know Ai sell my business.
Speaker: 1
01:38
I’m gonna crawl into a deep dark hole. And later he’s kind of back out and bought another business and I said, what about crawling into the deep dark hole? And he said, well, I did but my wife was in there. He was I ai to get back. I’m not ready yet.
Speaker: 2
01:54
I gotta get back out. Well, People I think that’s like these sort of fictional depictions of the future that, you know, everybody wants this future where, you know, you’re just holding hands and walking off into the sunset, the bryden years. It’s all bullshit. If you’re alive, you’re gonna wanna do the same things you’re doing right now. Yeah.
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02:16
You’re not gonna have some point in your life where you’re gonna wanna do nothing and be happy that you don’t have to do anything. You’re gonna get depressed.
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02:23
Yeah. I think about it. But my ai wife’s my wife’s smart enough to worry about what had happened to us if we didn’t have, like, you know, dragons to slay. Yeah. You know, she feels that it might be essential.
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02:33
It’s essential for life. You need puzzle. You need at least some sort of a very involving hobby. Mhmm. You need something I mean, you can retire from if you have a lot of money, you could retire from your financial pursuits, but you need something that you enjoy doing. Human beings need tasks.
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02:52
Mhmm.
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02:52
If you don’t have something, you you get very dull and that’s how people get Alzheimer’s. They just fucking Yeah. Get dementia. They just, like, sit around the house and their brain atrophies and and then they just die.
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03:04
Yeah. Ai, I look at people like that and and, you know, part of looking at, well, Biden and Trump would be, at that age, like, I plan on at that age to be, like, really kicking it Just screwing around outside.
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03:22
Yeah. Just have a thought.
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03:23
Just think that, like, to perform to the bitter end, man. Mhmm.
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03:27
Well, Biden is not performing.
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03:29
Trying to perform to the bitter end he’s doing. Yeah.
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03:32
Is strange.
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03:33
Yeah. Trying to keep at it.
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03:34
He’s getting propped up. I think there’s other people that are, like, pushing him towards the get out there. Come on. I like the I think Jill’s got her hands on his lower back.
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03:43
Just giving a push.
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03:44
Get out there. Come on. You can win again. I think they’re gonna gonna beat in Trump. Yeah. It’s, but it’s that thing too where people oh, one day, you meh to a certain age and you’ll, like, you ai, I’m 57, and I used to think, oh, when I’m 57, I’ll be done. I’ll just if I have some money, I’m just gonna relax.
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04:02
Yeah. That’s nonsense.
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04:03
I don’t wanna relax.
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04:04
How long
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04:05
do you think how
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04:05
long do you think you’d if you had to guess, how long would you do this podcast?
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04:08
This is the easiest thing I do.
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04:10
Really?
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04:10
Yeah. I’ll do this forever.
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04:11
Really?
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04:11
It’s so easy to do. Yeah. As long as I’m actually interested in talking to the people, how how hard is that? If you’re actually interested. Yeah. But that’s the only reason why I do it anyway. Yeah. Like, I only talk to people I wanna talk to. So no one ever tells me, you know, have this person on your show. There’s there’s literally zero input from anyone else.
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04:31
So everybody I talk to, I look at it, I go, do I wanna talk to that guy? That might be cool. That’d be interesting. I wanna find out what makes him tick. I wanna find out what why she writes those books like that.
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04:40
I wanna find out, you know, what what keeps him going. That that’s ai the whole the whole reason why I do it is because I enjoy it.
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04:48
If do you picture do you picture walking away from stand up before you’d walk away from podcasts?
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04:53
I don’t know. Why would I do that too?
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04:55
I’m in
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04:55
my own club now.
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04:56
I’m 50 years old, man. I’m starting to have all these questions. Nah.
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05:00
I think you enjoy you just stay healthy. Stay healthy and do what you enjoy doing. I think live in the moment. I think this idea of, like, planning for the future is, like, silly. I really do. I think you should have goals, like, if you enjoy doing things and you’re, like, I would like to get to this point.
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05:14
I would like to do this or something to strive towards. That’s good. But this idea that, like, you know, one day you’re just gonna, like, stop doing stuff. Like, why? Yeah. Are you alive? Are you enjoying doing it? Yeah. So shah the fuck up. Like, you could be so much worse off.
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05:31
There’s so many things to dwell on other than whether or not I wanna stop doing something that I enjoy. Why would I ever even think about that?
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05:37
That’s a good point, man. It’s a good point. These are all questions I had never really thought about, but Ai be more interested in after I cross that threshold, you know.
Speaker: 2
05:45
But I could conceive a time where I don’t wanna do it anymore. I don’t wanna be a public person anymore. The public aspect of it is the weirdest part. The people constantly wanting your time and everybody thinking that if I can connect with this guy that I can make a lot of money.
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05:58
I can set up a business with him. I can do this with him. I could do that with him. He can introduce me to this. I can, you know, work with him. I could do they do a lot of that. A lot of that that’s exhausting.
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06:08
A lot of these, like, opportunists and and weirdos. Yeah. You know, those those are exhausting.
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06:14
I remember years ago, 3, 4 years ago, you told me that you wished you were, we were eating ai, and you tyler me you wish you were 10% less famous. But I feel like then you got 20% more famous.
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06:28
Yeah. Yeah. I fucked up. Well, I thought doing the Spotify.
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06:32
I was like his direction isn’t going the right way.
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06:34
That was the whole reason why I took the Spotify deal. I was ai, good. They’re gonna give me a lot of money and it’ll only be on Ai, so I’ll be about 10% less famous. Good. Let me slot off in obscurity. Because all I meh, as long as I’m making money, I was like, I just enjoy doing it.
Speaker: 2
06:49
I don’t care how many people ai, the people that like it will still listen. Mhmm. So maybe I’ll have less casual fans, like, who cares?
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06:56
Yeah. Who cares?
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06:57
You know? Yeah. There’s a certain level of fame, though, that’s a little unmanageable, and I’m in that level. Yeah. It’s very unmanageable.
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07:05
You know what it is? Well, part you know, if you allow me to tell you what
Speaker: 0
07:09
it is.
Speaker: 2
07:10
Okay. Please do.
Speaker: 1
07:11
And and I I observed this, I observed this my my wife who’s traveling through right ai, I observed this after, we’d had dinner with you one ai. And certain individuals you included would be that, it’s not necessary it’s it’s not just people that don’t like you. Right? There’s people that like you too much.
Speaker: 2
07:36
Yeah. It’s ai don’t like you just avoid you.
Speaker: 1
07:39
I know. And so it’s like you got it, like, at a certain point, you gotta worry about the people that like you.
Speaker: 2
07:44
Yeah. Oh, believe me. I know.
Speaker: 1
07:46
Because they like you a lot.
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07:47
Oh, I know. Yeah. And they they
Speaker: 1
07:49
also They’re ai, I’d like to take kidnap that Joe Rogan and bring him home with me.
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07:54
They want me to come out.
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07:55
In my basement. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
07:56
I get I get, like, letters. People want me to come to their house. I get it, you know, especially if you don’t know anyone famous. And the thing about podcast too is, like, you’re so intimately connected to that person because you hear that person talk all the time.
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08:09
Yeah.
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08:09
I do 4 of these a speak. So it’s ai they’re hearing me, you know, it’s fucking 130 minutes a week No. Of me talking to you.
Speaker: 1
08:16
Yeah. It’s a lot. Yeah. Is that that ai, I mean, comes up it’s over observed.
Speaker: 2
08:20
Mhmm.
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08:21
Tim Meh mentioned it to me. It’s ai people think, like, they think they know you, but he’s ai, but they do. Mhmm. They do.
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08:32
They do and you don’t know them.
Speaker: 1
08:33
Yeah. Yeah.
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08:34
Which is real weird.
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08:34
Yeah. They know they know what you think about stuff. They know what you think about current events. They know about your background. Right?
Speaker: 2
08:39
The good thing about that though is if, like, someone tries to pretend you’re something other than you are, ai, there’s a smear campaign against you. People are ai, no, I know that guy. Oh. Like, they actually know you.
Speaker: 1
08:50
Yeah.
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08:50
They really know you. Like, people have listened to me like a 100 hours. There’s no there’s no confusion. There’s no, like, guesswork. Like, this is who I am.
Speaker: 1
08:58
Yeah.
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08:58
I’m not that complicated.
Speaker: 1
08:59
It’s a long charade.
Speaker: 2
09:00
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09:23
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09:43
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Speaker: 1
09:54
Maybe a long charade that you’ve played.
Speaker: 2
09:56
Yeah. Imagine imagine you bullshitting people for that long. That’s ai would be amazing.
Speaker: 1
10:01
Like a 100000 hours bryden 100000 hours of hours of trade.
Speaker: 2
10:04
Bullshitting people. Yeah. But, you know, there’s always that suspicion when you see someone on television that they’re not really that way because there’s been a like Ellen, like the Ellen situation.
Speaker: 1
10:16
Yeah. You know, people found
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10:17
out that Ellen was mean and all these people came out and said Ellen’s actually a fucking bitch. And then we’re
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10:21
like, shah. Yeah. I
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10:22
can’t believe it. And she lost everything. She fell apart, disappeared. Because people found out that this character that she was portraying in a half an hour on a television show is not really who she was.
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10:32
Yep.
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10:33
You know, but I hadn’t already known that because I had a buddy who worked for
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10:36
her. Mhmm. Like
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10:37
and he was like, she’s a fucking monster.
Speaker: 1
10:39
Yeah. Ai didn’t have I didn’t have a lot of I didn’t really had a lot of awareness. You probably did just from ram being in the business.
Speaker: 2
10:46
I only did because of my buddy. Yeah. My buddy, Greg, who was one of her ai, was like, she’s a piece of shit.
Speaker: 1
10:51
Yeah. I didn’t Ai didn’t know enough to be surprised.
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10:55
It’s just people that, they get in those positions of power. And if their whole life they’ve been fucked with and picked on or, you know, they’ve been marginalized and then all of a sudden they’re in control, like, oh, now it’s payback. There’s a lot of those folks.
Speaker: 1
11:10
That’s what happened to Castro.
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11:12
Is that it? Is that what happened to Castro?
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11:14
Yeah. I mean, like, you know, I mean, it’s like the in fact, I I would talk about that a little bit in some, you know, I’ve I’ve discussed that in, like, various conversations around when you watch, like, certain political fortunes ai as it becomes things become ai. I don’t
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11:28
even go to Canada anymore. I won’t go to Canada for UFC. I don’t go over there.
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11:33
Ai I’ve spent my whole life in the northern tier states, but I’ve I’ve remained somewhat oblivious to political movements in Canada.
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11:43
Well, they don’t have free speech up there. They don’t have a first amendment. They have different laws. They have hate speech laws Yeah. Which are very dangerous because who defines hate speech? Yep. You know, ai, so hate speech laws in Canada, they refer to gender pronouns now.
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11:58
So, like, not just male, female. Like, if a guy like, if Caitlyn Jenner decides that she’s a girl, like, Bruce Jenner decides he’s a girl, now you have to call him Caitlyn. If you don’t, that’s hate speech. Like, okay, maybe that’s debatable, maybe you’re being an asshole. But, no, they want, like, all 78 fake genders, like and all these fucking crazy fake ones and theythems and
Speaker: 1
12:18
Well, that that’s where, ai, that’s I mean, isn’t that conversation what spawned ai of the ascendency of, Jordan Ai. Right? Coming out yeah. Coming out of Canada.
Speaker: 2
12:27
Well, that’s how Jordan and I became friends Yeah. In 2015. And then Jordan did my podcast, and then Jordan became a famous guy for speaking out against this. Yeah. He’s going through some sort of bizarre reeducation process in Canada, and he’s going to, publicize it because it’s so ludicrous.
Speaker: 2
12:45
So they they want to re educate him on, like, what he what he talks about on social media if he wants to keep his clinical license to practice as a a psychotherapist.
Speaker: 1
12:57
Oh, is that right?
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12:58
But he doesn’t sana practice anyway. He makes far more money doing what they’ve essentially made a monster. They made him way more famous than
Speaker: 1
13:03
he ever would have been before. Yeah.
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13:05
They they highlighted all of Canada’s problems way more than problems way more than would ever get highlighted without this persecution of this guy. Mhmm. It’s kinda crazy though.
Speaker: 1
13:14
Yeah.
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13:15
So he’s going through it. He’s ai, fuck you. I’ll I’ll go through it and I’ll go through it publicly. You you guys are idiots. Also, you’re
Speaker: 1
13:21
gonna have to talk what the outcome will be.
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13:22
Well, knowing he’s gonna trounce them, like, good luck debating that guy. Yeah. Good fucking luck. Like, good luck. Like, who do you got on your side
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13:30
Mhmm.
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13:31
That’s gonna go up against that guy? Like, shut the fuck up. Who on your creepy authoritarian totalitarian regime is gonna stand up and make sense competing against Jordan Peterson? Good fucking luck.
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13:45
I wouldn’t want the job.
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13:47
Yeah. Good luck. Good luck debating that guy. It’s just the the whole the whole situation up there is just ai so fucked. And I don’t know too much about that Pierre Polovet guy, but I I hope that, you know, there’s some sort of meaningful change up there that could speak. I ai to love Canada. I used to say Canada is like Meh, but it’s like 20% less douchebags.
Speaker: 0
14:07
Mhmm.
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14:08
They were so friendly. They’re so nice. I used to love going to Montreal. I used to love going to Vancouver. I loved it up there. But some the woke shit hit there so hard because they don’t have freedom of speech. They don’t have a first amendment. So when they start clamping down on your ability to express yourself, ai, there’s really disastrous implications.
Speaker: 1
14:28
Yeah. But they’ll probably I mean, they’ll probably be a course correction now, which seems like just generally on free speech issues, there’s a radical course correction right now.
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14:37
Sure. Or you become Iran. Oh, no. You know?
Speaker: 1
14:41
You roll that way.
Speaker: 2
14:42
Yeah. I mean, course correction doesn’t always work. Like, you know, we think it works because it works in Meh. And it works in America because we have the first amendment and we have the second meh, and those two things work together. And if we didn’t have those things, we would be genuinely fucked because every government wants to eventually completely and totally control its population because it’s way easier for them to make money.
Speaker: 2
15:02
And that’s what they like to do. Yeah. They like to make money. They like to be in bed with the lobbyists in the military industrial complex and the pharmaceutical industrial complex, and they like to fucking impose their will on people. And if you can’t express yourself and say, hey, this is fucked up. This is crazy. Why am I doing this? Like, these studies show that you’re not correct.
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15:19
Like, if you can’t say all those things, which ai now you can’t do in Canada, it’s not the same. Like, their ability to express themselves on the Internet has been severely limited. It’s real weird, man. It’s real weird, and it’s happening right you could walk there. If you sana to, you could walk there, and it’s fucked. It’s ai it’s on the same patch of land as us, and it’s fucked.
Speaker: 2
15:39
It just shows you what can happen here if you don’t have the right laws. Because people like that fuckhead, Justin, they pretend
Speaker: 1
15:47
You got that on first name basis.
Speaker: 2
15:49
Yeah. That cocksucker. They pretend that they’re and I don’t talk this way about anybody.
Speaker: 1
15:54
No. I’m really surprised.
Speaker: 2
15:55
I I genuinely despise people like that. I think it’s good to say it publicly because people need to understand, like, what these people are doing. These people are leading you on the road to legitimate communism. Like, he’s he’s leading that country on a road to legitimate communism. It’s very dangerous.
Speaker: 2
16:10
And I think most Canadians are fed up with it. At this point, it’s just ai the party the party up there has so much control. And he’s been forced to resign, so he’s gotta step down. And just hopefully, they don’t get some new slick talker to con them into the same old bullshit.
Speaker: 2
16:27
Hopefully, someone comes along that has, like, real meaningful change.
Speaker: 1
16:30
Yeah. Which is what I’m hoping
Speaker: 2
16:31
is gonna happen in America too. If that Tim Walz cocksucker, if that guy got into into power, like, if Kamala died and Tim Walz, tampon Tim, was our fucking president, You know how crazy this country would be? That weirdo puts tampons in the boys’ ram. And what about our Choi? Like, he’s a complete pathological ai, like, a complete liar.
Speaker: 2
16:52
Lied about being in Tiananmen Square, lied about being a fucking head coach of a football team. Yeah. I thought some of that was,
Speaker: 1
17:01
just weird and how avoidable it was.
Speaker: 2
17:03
A 100% avoidable, but pathological ai. People that are habitual liars, they just lie all the time about everything.
Speaker: 1
17:09
But there’s a way there’s a way you can do it where it’s sort of like no one’s ever gonna know and there’s things you can fib about that are just that you find out in 5 seconds. So you wonder about making the call to embellish something that a person could answer on their phone. Right. Right. Instantly Like, almost as you’re saying it.
Speaker: 2
17:33
Yeah. No. That’s not true. No. This sai your rank in the military. Yeah. Oh, you didn’t deploy, ram for war. You didn’t. Why are you saying you deployed at war? The the weapons you used in war? No. No. No. You were in at war. Like, oh, you were a head foot?
Speaker: 2
17:45
No. You weren’t a head coach. You were the water boy.
Speaker: 1
17:47
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
17:47
The fuck are you talking about? I thought
Speaker: 1
17:48
some of that was weird.
Speaker: 2
17:49
Well, he’s just a liar. But that’s what a lot of these people are. They’re just they’re just actors who are ugly. And they’re ai, well, I can’t really make it in show business. And I I want a lot of attention. I wanna be a special person. So I’ll I’ll do politics. I’m good at bullshitting.
Speaker: 0
18:04
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
18:05
And most people, you know, they’re trusting. They’re like, oh, he’s saying the right things. If you say the right things, you know, abracadabra. And then next thing you know, you’re a fucking governor.
Speaker: 1
18:13
Yeah. You ever gonna run for governor of
Speaker: 2
18:15
Texas? No. No. I’m not running for nothing. I don’t wanna do nothing. Ai don’t wanna do a goddamn thing.
Speaker: 1
18:21
I can fix you down the road, man. You might be, like, I wanna be governor of Texas.
Speaker: 2
18:25
Fuck that. Why would I do that? I have the best job in the world. I get to talk shit with 0 responsibilities. If I get something wrong or listen, I’m a moron. Why are you listening to me in the first place? No. I have no desire in any way, shape, or form to have anything to do with anything involving politics or I don’t wanna be in control of it.
Speaker: 2
18:43
I don’t even like having employees. Jamie is awesome. But I mean, I don’t like having employees.
Speaker: 1
18:48
No. I didn’t.
Speaker: 2
18:48
But he’s just great. He’s just great. He’s easy. Like, that’s why we there’s so few of us here.
Speaker: 1
18:52
Uh-huh. You
Speaker: 2
18:53
know, like, I have a friend who has a a podcast, a big podcast. He’s ai fucking 13 people work for him. People running around with clipboards. I’m like, what do these people do?
Speaker: 1
19:01
Yeah. Ai, why do you
Speaker: 2
19:02
have so many people working for you? Like, this is doesn’t freak you out. And so we got, like, inter office conflicts and people are getting fired because people are fighting with each other and ai over, like, promotions and trying to get to, you know, like, backstabbing each other and, ai, ugh.
Speaker: 1
19:16
Yeah. Maybe you wouldn’t like being governor.
Speaker: 2
19:18
Fuck that. I would hate it. I wouldn’t want I don’t want to be a mayor. I don’t mean nothing. I don’t wanna be nothing. But I did get some sort of
Speaker: 1
19:26
Not even a mayor?
Speaker: 2
19:28
No. I don’t wanna be a city councilman. I sana be a con I don’t wanna be shit. I I I don’t like the whole thing about it. It’s just it’s not it’s not a good gig. It’s just a it’s a creepy business. It’s a very creepy and prostitutional business. It’s just I don’t like it.
Speaker: 1
19:47
Yeah. Yeah. Part of the impetus that pushes people into it is that they sana reverse that, but I think that then there’s a there’s a there’s a there’s a magnetic pole that takes you in the direction of being perhaps what you wanted to get rid of.
Speaker: 2
20:00
Seems like it happens to a lot of the, like, really idealistic young people that get involved in it, and then all of a bryden, they start doing really well in the stock arya. And Yeah. They make
Speaker: 1
20:11
they make some good bets.
Speaker: 2
20:12
Yeah. They, you know, they used to be making $28,000 a year. Now all of a sudden they’re worth 12,000,000. Now they’re worth 20,000,000 and they’re hanging out with a bunch of other people that are going on yachts on vacations. Ai, I’m not going on a yacht on vacation. Yeah. Next thing you know, you know, I want a Mercedes. And then they, like, they get you. They slowly get you. You know? You know Evan Hafer.
Speaker: 0
20:33
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
20:33
Evan Hafer had a great saying. Ai I’ve been repeating it a lot too much lately for people who listen to this podcast, but he said ai is more contagious than the flu. Ai was like, oh, that’s so true.
Speaker: 1
20:45
Oh, meh, ai, ideas in sai?
Speaker: 2
20:48
Yeah. Well, being around people
Speaker: 1
20:50
and the way they think Yeah. Yeah. Absorb the way they think.
Speaker: 0
20:54
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
20:54
Yeah. If you’re around people that are just trying to have a good time that are nice people, genuinely, you lean in that direction. Yeah. You know, like, I try to spread that. I want everybody to have fun. Like, let’s have a good time. Yeah. Like, if you’re around a bunch of creeps that are just trying to climb the ladder and claw their way into power, like, ugh.
Speaker: 1
21:11
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
21:11
How do you maintain your sovereignty?
Speaker: 1
21:14
Yeah. That ai of psychological infection.
Speaker: 2
21:16
Yeah. Good luck. Good luck battling it out with 460 other creeps who show up in DC and lie. Yuck. Although, I did get, like, a bizarre I did enjoy affecting the election.
Speaker: 1
21:37
Oh, I can oh, dude. Imagine. I can imagine.
Speaker: 2
21:40
I did enjoy because I didn’t want to. I did I did not want to get involved in any way, shape, or form, but it got so weird.
Speaker: 1
21:46
Yeah. You yeah. You’d you’d expressed that publicly in in the past.
Speaker: 0
21:50
I was
Speaker: 2
21:50
like, I don’t wanna have nothing and I don’t wanna have anything to do with in the future. I don’t. I didn’t want to. I just felt sucked into it. I’m like Yeah. Like, we can’t do this again. We can’t do it with these same people that fucked us for 4 years and then they’re sana, like, we’re gonna do it differently now. Like No.
Speaker: 2
22:05
Like, what’s going on? Did you see what’s going on? Obviously, you’ve seen what’s going on in California. But the governor gave this creepy fucking speech where he was talking about speculators coming in and and talking about what to do with the land of all these homes that have been burned down ai these while it’s still only 6% contained.
Speaker: 2
22:23
And he did this little dance, like, I’ve been talking with these, like, you know, with the the governor of Hawaii about what to do. We got some ideas, a speculator. We’re gonna have some meetings. Like Really? Oh, show it to him, Jamie.
Speaker: 2
22:34
It’s so creepy because it’s happening while these people are their houses have been burned, all their childhood memorabilia, all their their the stuff for their kids, the photos, the fucking everything they have. Everything they have is gone. All heirlooms, you know, their their mother’s wedding ring, that kind of shit. Everything’s burnt to the ground.
Speaker: 2
22:55
And this ai, like, standing in front of all this stuff, and he’s got a smile on his face, and he’s talking about land use. The development plan. Watch this. Play this.
Speaker: 0
23:03
Give me I’m
Speaker: 3
23:04
I was just talking to Josh Green, the governor, of, down in in Hawaii who had some ideas around some land
Speaker: 2
23:11
Look at that.
Speaker: 3
23:11
Concerns he has around speculators coming in, buying up properties Mhmm. And the ai. So we’re already working with our legal teams to, to move those things forward, and we’ll be presenting those in in a matter of days, not just weeks.
Speaker: 2
23:24
A big smile on his face. Look at the little wiggle he does with his shoulders. Speculator watch this. Talking to John look at this. Look at this little wiggle. It’s excited about the possibilities of speculators coming in, and he’s saying we’re move forward. We’re gonna move forward on that. These people lost their homes.
Speaker: 2
23:42
A lot of those people don’t even have fire insurance because the fire insurance pulled out of California. Mhmm. Ai think, like, 69% of fire insurance pulled out of California because they’re like, this is too crazy. Like, you guys aren’t doing jack shit to manage this. You’re not clearing the brush.
Speaker: 2
23:57
The amount of money they could have saved by just clearing brush, like, filling the reservoir, that 11,000,000 gallon reservoir was completely empty during the time of full fire saloni. Like, why why didn’t you fix that? Yeah. Like, it’s all insanely mismanaged. And then this guy is on television talking about really excited about that.
Speaker: 2
24:17
Doing a dance in front of the burned down home that people used to sleep in where their children would sleep in. Like, this is so disgusting.
Speaker: 1
24:25
You know, That’s
Speaker: 2
24:26
why I don’t wanna be governor.
Speaker: 1
24:27
The oh, you know what’s funny? I was gonna tell you about, on the way down here, I happened to be sitting across from one of our senators from Montana. And and after when the when the flight was getting off, you know, it’s hilarious, this this this old timer comes by him and and legitimate I’m not joking.
Speaker: 1
24:47
Legitimately brings up to him potholes on the road. Really? Like, on the airplane.
Speaker: 2
24:55
Sai, like, you gotta do something about these potholes. I’m outside of Belgrade, and these potholes are terrible.
Speaker: 1
25:01
He’s ai, okay. Yep. Got it. Got it.
Speaker: 2
25:04
Lobby, the center that can’t do much about office. No. I know. But it’s just like it’s really almost
Speaker: 1
25:08
like a cliche. But, you know, the thing with, what’s go ai diet, guys that I grew up with, you know, like a a fish that was very central to our upbringing was a was a fish called smelt.
Speaker: 0
25:21
Mhmm. There’s
Speaker: 1
25:22
different kinds of smelt. So we had a rainbow smelt, and they were they live in the great lakes. And so in the spring, when the smelt run, you know, it was a big deal to go smelt dipping. And we’d smelt dip them in with drop nets and dip nets. It was a huge thing. And and when smelt numbers arya really high, you know, it was just like it kinda brought everybody together.
Speaker: 0
25:40
A lot
Speaker: 2
25:40
of my buddies used to do that in Massachusetts.
Speaker: 1
25:42
The smelt run. Yeah. So the r ai, someone had taken out a clip where, someone had taken out a chunk of an article in my friend circle and had sent me a thing where where Trump had called the Delta meh, like a basically useless fish. And and I was like, man, I feel like there needs to be ai a ai, a article in the constitution that the president cannot shit talk meh. You know?
Speaker: 2
26:08
But but I realized it’s
Speaker: 1
26:09
a different smelt. So I got my I I Ai cooled off once I realized it was the delta meh, not our beloved rainbow smelt.
Speaker: 2
26:15
Well, you can have there’s a a balance, right, in terms of, like, being environmentally conscious, but also recognizing the needs of the human population. Mhmm. And I think that it’s been distorted in California significantly.
Speaker: 1
26:28
Yeah. But I do meh, like, my hackles get up when ai hackles get up about disparaging, disparaging fishes and birds.
Speaker: 2
26:35
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27:47
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Speaker: 2
27:55
I get it. That’s your world. Mhmm. That’s your world. Yeah. It’s, there’s a balance sai balance to be held for sure. You know, I’m not real thrilled with this idea of, like, continuing to to drill for oil in the gulf and drill for oil everywhere and knowing that occasionally these things blow up and
Speaker: 1
28:16
Yeah. Meh
Speaker: 2
28:16
have massive pollution and but also Ai don’t think we should be dependent on Saudi Arabia for all our oil. It’s a mix.
Speaker: 1
28:25
You know, one of the one of the kind of contradictions you encounter with stuff like this and and I’ve been a little bit involved in this the last few years as I started going down to the Gulf of Mexico to spearfish on the oil rigs. And so the oil rigs are they’re ver imagine ai a a vertical coral reef. You know?
Speaker: 1
28:48
You I don’t wanna call it, but by no means I don’t wanna call the gulf of desert. But, I mean, you could if you’re away from the rigs, you could swim along the surface for miles potentially. Right? If you’re just some of the snorkel and mask, you sai swim along the surface for miles and not encounter fish.
Speaker: 1
29:05
I mean, just counter where you’re seeing them in front of your face.
Speaker: 2
29:08
Right.
Speaker: 1
29:08
And you pull up to a rig and it’s it’s hung in fish. I mean, it’s it’s they’re they’re draped in thousands of fish. Okay? So, you know, you grow up with this idea if you just have a passive understanding of all this stuff. You grow up with this idea that, like, oil x oil exploration equals a diminishing of natural ai, a diminishing of wildlife.
Speaker: 1
29:32
And you go in, and there, there’s this big debate where certain people wanna pull the abandoned rigs out, but you have fishermen who arya, like, they’re here now. Leave them because that’s where all the fish are. Yeah. You know? And it’s just it’s just very it’s just very spirited debate and different administrations will have different plans.
Speaker: 1
29:54
They had a program like tyler iron, which is to pull them out. There’s a program called rigs to reefs, which is to tip them over so they’re not navigational hazards. The, shrimpers don’t like them because they they are they are, you know, they cause, like, navigational obstructions.
Speaker: 1
30:10
You can hang your gear up on them, but all the rod and reel fishermen and all the spear fishermen want the rigs there. So you wind up in this situation like that where it’s just real complexity and you can picture, you know, it puts people in a situation in viewing it. It puts you in a situation where it’s not that clean. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
30:28
You know, like you’re creating I mean, you they you always hate to say it because you’re supposed to, you know, you know, you’re you’re supposed to be, and, you know, most people from the environmental movement are anti oil oil exploration. But then you go and look and be ai they created like an on accidentally created an unbelievable fishery
Speaker: 2
30:49
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
30:49
In the gulf. And there’s dudes now, ai, I got buddies at spearfish there and fish there. And it’s ai, meh in Star Wars, the original Star Wars, where they go to that fucking planet and the planet’s gone.
Speaker: 0
30:59
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
31:00
So, hey, shouldn’t the planet be here, you know, that scene? I’ve been with buddies of mine, and they got they got GPS marks for rigs. And you show up, and it’s like Star Wars. It’s like you show up, and the rig’s not there anymore. Because there’s these ships out there called rig reapers that are out plucking the rigs and they’re plucking them faster than they can put them in, but it’s got all the fishermen pissed off.
Speaker: 2
31:22
That’s an interesting situation.
Speaker: 1
31:23
Yeah. They want them there now, man.
Speaker: 2
31:25
Lake Austin has a similar situation. So Lake Austin used to be this it’s still very good for bass fishing. Mhmm. Big bass on Lake Austin. And, the people that live on the lake, you know, the highfalutin folks didn’t like all the weeds.
Speaker: 1
31:40
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
31:41
So they brought in carp. Oh. And the carp ate everything. Yeah. So now the the place looks like the bottom of a swimming pool. Yeah. It’s like all the vegetation is fucked. And so the bass don’t have a lot of places to go, like, you know, where where I live, people go to the docks, like, they they cast to the docks, you know, and they they fish near people’s docks because that’s, like, the only cover that these fish have.
Speaker: 2
32:03
And so there’s talk of, like, submerging, like, trees or, you know, dropping Sure.
Speaker: 1
32:08
Creating structures. Yeah. Creating structures.
Speaker: 2
32:09
And then there’s people that are opposed to that because, like, you know, you have your, you know, the wake boarders and all the people that like to, like, recreation on the water. They don’t want anything that could possibly fuck up their boat.
Speaker: 1
32:21
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
32:22
You know, but, like, you’ve they already fucked it up by bringing in the carp, ai, and you can’t get the carp out. Like, how are you gonna kill the carp?
Speaker: 1
32:29
You know, Tom or you ram remember the writer Tom? Was it Tom Robbins or Tim? No. Tim Robbins is the actor. Right?
Speaker: 2
32:34
Right. Right.
Speaker: 1
32:35
Tom Robbins, skinny skinny, skinny legs and all. Mhmm. Jitterbug perfume. He had a line where, you know, like in Hawaii, they had this famous thing where they had a rat problem, and then they brought in mongooses to kill the ram. And then now they got a mongoose problem. Yeah. He had some line that, like, we used to have a crime problem, then we brought in cops.
Speaker: 1
32:57
But it’s, like, my first, you’re talking about political involvement. My first thought ai first time I ever approached anything remotely political was on the lake I grew up on. We had an, an we had an invasive seaweed, an invasive aquatic plant called Eurasian Milfoil and it grew in our lake but it made unbelievable fish habitat.
Speaker: 1
33:21
And at the time, I was not hip enough to understand the deleterious effects of non native vegetation. I just knew that when you wanted to catch a fish, you went to the Milfoil bed because all the fish were hiding in the Milfoil And they had this proposal to come in and kill all the milfoil in all the lakes.
Speaker: 1
33:39
And I went down. I remember I was I was in high school. I went down. I remember I was the sole person there to represent, like, the milfoil side of the argument. And then they did it.
Speaker: 1
33:50
They went in and poisoned all the milfoil out of the lakes in hopes of, you know, bringing in, like, the native seaweeds would take hold. But it it I mean, it it absolutely transformed the lake and from a fishery perspective, from a not a perspective of native habitat, but from a pounds of fish perspective, the pounds of fish, like, the biomass of fish declined ai pulling out the weeds.
Speaker: 1
34:15
Of course. You know? And it’s again ai some you you on one hand, you look like, why would you mess up with this? There’s fish everywhere. And some people be like, well, it’s not a native plant, and we need to value native wildlife, at the expense of what, you know, a high schooler would look vatsal, like, it’s where the fish are.
Speaker: 1
34:30
Yeah. You know?
Speaker: 2
34:31
They didn’t do what they did to Lake Austin. They didn’t do it to Lady Bird Lake. So if you go to Lady Bird Lake, it’s just hopping with bass.
Speaker: 1
34:38
Remained a good fishery.
Speaker: 2
34:39
For the seaweed and all kinds of or not seaweed, but, you know, lily pads and all kinds of shit over there that you don’t have on Lake Austin. They didn’t bring in the carp.
Speaker: 1
34:48
Yeah. The the other enormously destructive thing that they’ve done, around the lakes where I grew up on is all that so much of that that life, the lake life relies on what you call ai the littoral zone sai, you know, the shoreline zone. And most of these fish species they like it to be dirty, meaning weeds falling over trees ai it creates all kinds of habitat, right, for little stuff to hide.
Speaker: 1
35:13
And on these lakes where I grew up in Michigan, there’s been a tendency over the years to to to to round up put round up on your shoreline Oh. And then haul in beach sand. And you you just watch over the years, like, over the course of my lifetime, you just watch this, like, really, like, verdant kind of ai vibrant environment become increasingly like a swimming pool.
Speaker: 1
35:36
And a lot and a lot of those lakes, sai, and it’s just been it’s just been it’s just been depressing to watch happen.
Speaker: 2
35:41
Yeah. We were talking the other day about eating freshwater fish. Mhmm. How how much toxic chemicals are in freshwater fish? It’s fucking bananas. Yeah. They have state advisories, which I’ve always ignored. I’ve always ignored. Have you ever get your blood tested?
Speaker: 1
35:58
No. But you wanna know I might have told you this story, man. Did I ever tell you a story about this?
Speaker: 2
36:02
Which one?
Speaker: 1
36:02
Well, I’ll tell it real quick. So I grew up with a guy who the, a guy named Ron Spring. Yes.
Speaker: 2
36:08
He had his Ai tell you the Ron
Speaker: 1
36:09
Spring story. Okay. Never mind. Please do. Oh, fuck. Tell the story to to
Speaker: 0
36:13
I don’t
Speaker: 2
36:13
think you told it on here. Okay.
Speaker: 1
36:15
I grew up with this guy Ron Spring and it for a living, he was a commercial bait fisherman. He would, he would catch wigglers, minnows. He’d dig crawlers, catch leeches, and he would supply bait and tackle shops with live bait and he had spring sporting goods where he sold his own live bait and he would even hire women to sai what’s called a spawn sack where you take little bits of pieces of salmon row, salmon eggs and sai them into a little mesh bag for steelhead bait.
Speaker: 1
36:44
He was just in the bait business, but also was a fishing fanatic and lived off fish his whole life. So he was living off Great Lakes fish his whole life. And the University of Montana started trying to track down old timers who’d eaten, like, enormous quantities of Great Lake fish Great Lakes fish to test them for heavy metals exposure.
Speaker: 1
37:05
Okay? And and and and other toxic things are in in the ai. And he’d lived his whole life like me with, like, complete defiance of health advisory suggestions about fish consumption. And he goes down there and he and he would go in every month or 2 for these little batteries of tests.
Speaker: 1
37:22
And one of the things they would do with them is they would tell them they’d give him a grocery list. And they’d be like, hey, you gotta go to the store and buy like bread, eggs, cheese, butter, whatever. And then he’d wait a minute and they’d say, what were you supposed to buy at the store?
Speaker: 1
37:37
You know, and he’s telling me this story and he told me I always laughed. He said, Steve, I wouldn’t have remembered that list if I never ate a piece of fish in my life.
Speaker: 2
37:48
So they’re trying to, like, gauge his memory based on the amount of heavy meh inspired?
Speaker: 1
37:53
Yeah. They were trying to they’re presumably, they tested his blood and found something of interest. And so they were trying to figure out, like, what happens to a guy. But, I lived in Seattle in right on Lake Washington, and we would catch a lot of yellow perch because people that they’re full yellow perch, which are not native, and everyone in in that area in the Pacific Northwest is like a trout and salmon snob.
Speaker: 1
38:14
So I had the whole fishery to myself. You know? You you could go out and catch easily, you know, 100 plus yellow perch ai of Lake Washington, but they had a health advisory on them and you weren’t supposed to they would tell you that perch over 12 inches, you’re only supposed to eat 1 meal a month or some shit like that.
Speaker: 1
38:32
But we just wouldn’t keep them over 12 inches, because there weren’t that many under over 12 inches anyways and we just eat them all the time. I would have fish fries and when you fried fish in the great lakes, there’s no person in the great lakes region that I was aware of like in Michigan, there’s no person that would even ai give a shit about these restrictions.
Speaker: 1
38:51
They would be surprised to hear that there were any kind of restrictions. But, like, the the way the different sentiments and different mentalities run-in Seattle, you’d have people that, ai, they’re, like, you caught it where? Lake Washington? No way. Right?
Speaker: 1
39:04
Just like an like a level of awareness from, like, an urban environment about those ai of toxins. Mhmm. And and growing up where I grew up, it was just not a thing that people discussed even though they’re right in the fishing rigs.
Speaker: 2
39:16
When did it start happening? Like, when did freshwater fish become toxic? That would be something I’d be interested in. Man, I
Speaker: 1
39:23
think it’s ai it it’s it’s mercury. It’s certain industrial solvents. It’s BPAs too. Yeah. It’s forever chemicals. And I think that with Lake Washington, there was a lot correct me if I maybe I’m wrong. Like, as I say this, I might be wrong. I think there was things around, Boeing plants and old solvents and stuff that went in the water.
Speaker: 1
39:42
And then and then but mercury, which comes from, you know, different ways. They have ways of scrubbing it now and greatly reducing the amount of mercury when you burn coal. But for a long time, mercury would come from the combustion of coal and it would be distributed globally, evenly everywhere.
Speaker: 1
40:01
So it didn’t it didn’t necessarily matter if you were it didn’t matter if you’re eating a pelagic fish. I mean, if if you’re eating ai a piscivorous pelagic fish would seem to be the worst. It would
Speaker: 0
40:11
be like
Speaker: 2
40:11
What does a pelagic mean?
Speaker: 1
40:12
Fish to live their life up at the surface. Okay? And then ones that eat fish that eat fish that eat fish
Speaker: 0
40:19
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
40:19
Are the worst. So picture you got like a like a like a marlin. Right? He’s eating tuna. Tuna are eating fish that are eating fish and so they they magnify and accumulate all the stuff in their fat. That’s that’s ai globally distributed in the oceans and, they’ve slowed down mercury, they’ve slowed down how much mercury is going out because of ways they scrub when they clean when they burn coal now But it’s just it’s stagnant in the ai.
Speaker: 2
40:45
Did I tell you my arsenic story? No. Sai got my blood work done. You know, I get my blood work done pretty regularly and I went once, few years back, quite a few years back, 15 years ago at least. And my doctor said, do you have a lot of arsenic in your blood? And I go, like, someone’s poisoning me? He’s like, no.
Speaker: 2
41:05
Do you eat a lot of fish?
Speaker: 1
41:07
Oh, really?
Speaker: 2
41:08
And I said, I eat a lot of sardines. He goes, how how much? I go, 4 or 5 cans a ai. And he was ai, what? So, like, what the fuck are you doing? I go, what I ai?
Speaker: 1
41:17
What are you doing?
Speaker: 2
41:18
Well, I love sardines. And when I’m if, like, I come home from the comedy club and I’m hungry, it’s easy to have, ai, what I thought was like healthy food. It’s just sardines and olive oil. What could be bad about
Speaker: 1
41:29
that? Yeah.
Speaker: 2
41:30
And so he said, take a few months off and then come back and let’s do this again. And I took a few months off and I came back with no arsenic. Yep. I was like, oh, man. He goes, it’s not enough to be concerned. You know, but you’re you’re getting arsenic in your blood from these sardines.
Speaker: 1
41:45
Yeah. Ai, I work with a ai, Seth, and and he he kinda had this perfect storm where we’ve been in Ai. So we had wahoo and and, yellowfin sana. And he fishes in Alaska, so he had all his halibut. And then he’s got a bunch of walleye that he catches. You know, he’s big walleye fisherman that he catches locally.
Speaker: 1
42:06
And he wound up, had ai there’s like kind of like a long term mercury deal and a short term mercury deal. But he had he had mercury poisoning. His hands went numb and stuff. Oh, yeah.
Speaker: 2
42:17
You told me.
Speaker: 1
42:17
And then I got to read about it and there’s there’s, like, various cases where, there’s this other case that’s kinda interesting. This guy gets on a cruise shah. Never doesn’t eat fish. This guy, like, doesn’t have fish in his diet. It was a it was a thing that was covered in the news.
Speaker: 1
42:29
And he gets on the cruise a cruise and they have all you can eat sushi thing. So he wants to get his money’s worth and so he’s gorging himself on this all you can eat sushi during the course of his cruise and generates ai, generates mercury poisoning. Ai, a short term version, you know. And dudes I hang out with in Hawaii that have in Ai, they have access to a lot of big vociferous fish.
Speaker: 1
42:50
They’ll they’ll they’ll sort of, like, deliberately pace themselves, you know. Like, they could live off tuna. Right? But they’ll deliberately pace themselves keeping in mind the amount of that stuff you’re getting in. And RFK Junior I had RFK Junior on the show on on our podcast, and he had had, he had had mercury poisoning.
Speaker: 2
43:09
Really?
Speaker: 1
43:09
You know? From what? Canned tuna. Was he eating too much canned tuna? Wow. Yeah. Sai maybe I’ve had it. I don’t know. I don’t I would well, no. I’ve had my blood tested. I don’t know. But but I can’t picture the sentiment I have bought as a friend of mine who fishes flathead catfish which have they accumulate a lot of bio or not biotoxins.
Speaker: 1
43:32
They accumulate a lot of, heavy metals and he said and we’re talking about eating this stuff and he said, if I can eat if I can catch and eat so many big flatheads that it kills me, I win. That’s his attitude.
Speaker: 2
43:49
Well, there’s no cases of, CWD getting into humans yet. Right?
Speaker: 1
43:55
Nope.
Speaker: 2
43:56
No. But that’s the big fear. Like, you and I are on a text chain with Ted Nugent
Speaker: 0
44:00
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
44:00
And he’s always, like, trying
Speaker: 1
44:01
I met Ted’s kid last night.
Speaker: 2
44:03
Which one? Rocco? Rocco. Yeah. Good kid. Yeah. You know, Ted is always trying to dismiss the concerns of CWD. He doesn’t believe in it. Yeah. He thinks it’s overhyped. Well It scares the fuck out of me. Yeah. Because it it’s a prion disease. Right? Yeah.
Speaker: 2
44:21
So if it jumps to people and it has jumped to, like, certain bryden species. Isn’t that correct?
Speaker: 1
44:28
No. Right now, it’s just it’s it’s cervids.
Speaker: 2
44:30
Oh, just cervids? Servids. Meh. There hasn’t been a case of it jumping to, like, a mole or something like that?
Speaker: 1
44:36
Well, they did you know, when you do I don’t sana get in over my waiters here, but I’d love to talk about CWD at length, but sometimes you can do a, if someone does medical research and they’ll they’ll have a ai. There’s a term for it. Let’s say you have a finding that’s alarming but you haven’t done peer review yet. Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
44:58
Right? But let’s say I just all of
Speaker: 1
45:00
a sudden made some discovery that had huge implications and people would need to become immediately aware of what I might have found out. Right? Mhmm. There’s a term for it where you would release these you release these, like, preliminary findings even though it hasn’t been held up to academic rigor because it’s of such importance.
Speaker: 1
45:20
Like, a lot of times, you don’t get to skip that step. But in cases of medical, you get to skip a step and say, like, hey. Hang tight. We’re not all the way there meh, but look, this is kind of alarming. Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
45:31
They had a case and it and it all corroded, but these guys had a case where they were able to infect a rhesus monkey with CWD. Oh. But then it, you know, it didn’t wasn’t replicable, didn’t hold up. But think when things like that happen, they tend to get a ton of media. But then down the road, the media doesn’t follow suit.
Speaker: 1
45:51
Like, there’s just been cases where, there was one not longer where they were looking at people that had this rare form of dementia and they were kind of they found that over these people that had this rare form of dementia, a couple of them had were deer hunters who lived in CWD areas.
Speaker: 1
46:08
Right? So they come out with a, hey, everybody. Check this out. But then it winds up being that when you do a statistical analysis on it, it was it was no different than anything else. There was no reason that that it wasn’t like they scored higher, the deer hunters scored ai, or nothing.
Speaker: 2
46:23
It’s just a certain percentage of people get dementia.
Speaker: 1
46:24
Yeah. And so it’s like a certain number of people eat dementia, a certain number of people eat venison, and statistically, you’re gonna have some overlap if you survey enough people. So even though they gave, like, a big heads up, there won’t be nothing there. But, yes, CWD, it’s an it’s a highly infectious disease.
Speaker: 1
46:43
It was first identified in Colorado on a game on a on a research facility, not a game farm. It was first identified on a surveyed research facility in Colorado, I believe, in the early seventies. And then there’s been a there’s been a a debate. Like, some some people feel that it was always there and wasn’t detected. Right? And that we that it wasn’t like we found it the minute it came out.
Speaker: 1
47:07
It was just that it would perhaps had been there and then we discovered that it was always there. But it does it does expand its range all the time. Right? Even in the last few years, we’ve had our first cases in Montana. And you you we keep every year we add, like, without fail every year, we find CWD in states where it didn’t previously exist or within states that have CWD, we find CWD in counties that didn’t have it.
Speaker: 1
47:37
Oftentimes, you can look and it makes sense because it flows but now and then you get these weird jumps. Right? Where where, something jumps a big moat of inactivity and then all of a sudden you get ai a new hot spot and you look and be like, well, how did if it’s an infectious disease and deer aren’t flying in airplanes, how did it jump?
Speaker: 1
47:55
Some of the jumps people tie it to transporting. There’s a theory that is well accepted in a lot of circles would be that that moving servants, moving deer and elk, to penned operations has facilitated the movement of CWD. What what it used to mean to be a if someone was a CWD denier before it would be that they they they denied that it was a thing.
Speaker: 1
48:23
Like, there is no disease called CWD. There’s generally it’s generally accepted now that there’s a disease called CWD, but but now the debate is, like, is sort of does it matter or not. Right? Our mutual friend Doug Dern is, like, heavily involved in in in CWD, combating CWD, trying to get more money spent to understand CWD.
Speaker: 1
48:42
And they look at you’re looking at there’s 2 risks with CWD. One risk is it ultimately it’s gonna lead to, like, destruction of deer herds. Meaning, if you meh, like it’s always fatal and if infection rates get to a certain point, we’re gonna lose deer. Right? Like, if it’s always fatal and you have infection rates of 50 or 60% and it takes a couple years to kill them, like, you’re gonna run out of big bucks because nothing can live long enough.
Speaker: 1
49:08
The other fear is that it jumps the barrier and becomes a human pathogen. You know? So people, you know, all the hunters I know, like, the the question we always talk about is, like, do you, do you would you eat CWD positive meat? You know?
Speaker: 2
49:26
Right. Even if it doesn’t jump currently You know? You take that risk.
Speaker: 1
49:29
So 0. Yanni was recently with a guy and he’s like, he’s eaten him and his family have eaten 4 CWD positive deer. Oh. Man, I couldn’t I I can’t I Ai like I couldn’t serve it to my kids.
Speaker: 2
49:47
No. I wouldn’t eat it myself either.
Speaker: 1
49:49
I can’t serve it to my kids. No. I ai Sai haven’t knowingly eat it but here’s the thing. Here’s the rub. I’ve said this number before and people like ai not true. But it’s true. I’m telling you. 100 of thousands of people have eaten CWD positive. 100 of thousands of people have eaten CWD positive meat.
Speaker: 2
50:05
I would imagine that’s true.
Speaker: 0
50:07
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
50:07
Yeah. Over many decades. Yeah. Right? So at what point do you at what point do you get comfortable?
Speaker: 2
50:17
Sai don’t know. It’s it’s
Speaker: 1
50:19
a dude, it’s a tough one.
Speaker: 2
50:21
Yeah. It’s a tough one. It’s a tough one. It can jump. It hasn’t.
Speaker: 1
50:25
It hasn’t.
Speaker: 2
50:26
But when you look at the history of these types of diseases Yeah. Especially prion diseases like mad cow, prion disease jumped people.
Speaker: 1
50:35
You know the debate between prion and prion? No. You know, it’s you hear I
Speaker: 2
50:39
used to say prion, but then I heard ai say prion, and it wouldn’t sound smart.
Speaker: 1
50:43
Well, the the ai, Jim Heffelfinger, You should that that’s that’d be a very good guy for you to have on your show someday. The biologist, Jim Heffelfinger, sent me a thing where the guy that named it, the guy that coined the term, spelled out phonetically how it’s supposed to be pronounced.
Speaker: 1
51:02
Sai then I was like, okay. I’m gonna stick with preon now. It’s the guy that came up with it says preon.
Speaker: 2
51:08
Oh, so that’s what it is?
Speaker: 1
51:08
And not prime. Okay. Yeah. He’s ai sai. He’s like, we’ll call it this and we’ll pronounce it this way.
Speaker: 2
51:14
Okay. So it’s preon.
Speaker: 1
51:16
It’s now I’m now I’m trying to I always try to remember which one it is, and it’s, yeah. It’s Priyun. It’s scary, dude. It’s scary. And and Doug I’ve said this a 100 times, like, before, like, if I say meh, the main thing I’m worried about is people getting it, That pisses Doug off because Doug’s worried about that we’re gonna lose big bucks and people.
Speaker: 1
51:39
He just he ai he like he know he wants to shah he ai he’s a he wants to he likes healthy deer.
Speaker: 2
51:46
Right. And he
Speaker: 1
51:46
He doesn’t want a disease running through his deer herd.
Speaker: 2
51:49
It hasn’t jumped to cows or anything
Speaker: 1
51:51
else. No. And that’s the sai, that’s one area where Ai gonna get myself in trouble with Doug in all kinds of ways because that’s the thing I think about is it’s not that they’re I’m not saying the ag world is complacent.
Speaker: 0
52:03
Right?
Speaker: 1
52:03
I’m not saying they’re complacent. Like, there’s a lot of interest in the agricultural community to understand CWD better. But if you look and be ai, dude, a cow looks a hell of a lot more like a deer than I do Right. I’m just gonna watch the cow. And all of a sudden, these cows start getting sick. Then my ass is gonna get nervous. Right. But I’m like, they’re rubbing noses with these deer.
Speaker: 2
52:23
Yeah. And it gets on the grass. It gets on the vegetation.
Speaker: 0
52:26
And you
Speaker: 1
52:26
can’t kill that shit.
Speaker: 0
52:27
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
52:27
I remember some politician was ai, well, just cook your deer meat longer. And I was like, ai, Sai can’t remember what it is. You can’t cook deer meat to 1400 degrees,
Speaker: 2
52:35
you know. Incinerated.
Speaker: 1
52:36
Or whatever, you know, whatever else becomes. But but, yeah, cooking it isn’t the thing. It can survive. That’s why if you hunt, there’s a lot of restrictions now on moving carcasses around. Right? So more and more states are implementing that when you go home, they don’t want you bringing the head home. They don’t want you bringing the bones home.
Speaker: 1
52:54
I also fear for a time and it’d just be terrible if you’re for a time where you couldn’t bring anything. Like, we they really restrict movement. You know? Right. Like, it’s easy to like, it’s very easy to comply with not moving bones. It’s easy to comply with not moving brain matter. Like, that’s easy. Right? Yeah.
Speaker: 1
53:09
But picture that this gets out
Speaker: 2
53:10
of hand and all of
Speaker: 1
53:11
a sudden it’s like ai can’t move venison across county lines.
Speaker: 2
53:14
That’s right.
Speaker: 1
53:15
I don’t know. Right. Like, no one’s throwing this out there. But as we look at as they look at, like, further and further restrictions, it’s scary. And so from a ai, like, from from from Ai don’t sana speak for Nugent, but from his idea of of being overblown is his idea would be ai I said, I hate speaking for the guy.
Speaker: 1
53:37
It would be that here we are making policy changes, making game management changes, making rule changes, adjusting what you can and can’t do in the woods based off a thing that most people would be ai, but we haven’t proven there’s a problem.
Speaker: 2
53:51
Right.
Speaker: 1
53:52
That would be his perspective on it. My perspective is it’s scary as shah. And I and and as much as our government right now is trying to find a way to stop spending so much money, I support any money that can get spent on finding out if this can be a real problem or not. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
54:05
Like, I that’s I I’ll find other places to get the money, but I I’d like to channel taxpayer dollars, 1,000,000,000 of them into making sure deer meat stays safe.
Speaker: 2
54:18
Well, the thing is That
Speaker: 1
54:18
that’s my kind of pork barrel speak.
Speaker: 2
54:20
There’s no way to eradicate it. Right? Like, you’d there’s no way to identify the deer that have it that haven’t exhibited symptoms, and they’re spreading it.
Speaker: 1
54:29
Yeah. They’re looking at ways to test live animals. Then there’s there’s other cockamamie ideas that one would be that some deer seem to be, some deer Resilient. Yeah. And so that you’d you’d move these resilient deer into other populations to try to breed in some kind of resiliency, which, you know, it’s a wild animal.
Speaker: 2
54:53
Is it ultimately resilient? Because, like, mad cow disease has, there’s an incubation period. Right? This is the the concern. Like, I remember That’s the
Speaker: 0
55:00
other
Speaker: 1
55:00
thing is that we’re all ai meh, everybody. Because I guarantee I’ve eaten CWD infected meat. The other concern is we all got it. We just don’t know it yet because it takes 10 years.
Speaker: 2
55:08
Yeah. My bad news.
Speaker: 1
55:09
Tracking these dudes that went to a fire department fundraiser. They had a 100 some people that ate a bunch of CWD infected meat at a fire department fundraiser. Oh, yeah. And they keep following up on those people and following up on those people, and they haven’t got it. But that’s the other
Speaker: 2
55:22
thing was this?
Speaker: 1
55:23
It was over a decade ago. So So that’s the other thing is that we all got it. Like, all these hunters, you know? I don’t think this is true, but some people arya, like, all these hunters, they don’t know it yet, but it could be that all of a sudden in 10 years, they all start dropping like flies or could develop dementia.
Speaker: 1
55:36
Boy. I don’t it’s such a I I really think that, I don’t like to see any kind of wildlife disease. Right?
Speaker: 0
55:48
Of course.
Speaker: 1
55:49
I do believe, if you look at prevalency rates and you look at the the fact that it’s always, that it’s always fatal, whether or not removing the human question to it, I do think that you will find that it’ll become harder to, it’ll become harder to produce big deer. Ai I worry about that and it’d be easy to track.
Speaker: 1
56:12
Just go and look at, like, go and look at Boone and Crockett entries over time from all these counties. So go to, like, Buffalo County, Wisconsin, like a famous giant whitetail producing place. Right? They get high rates of CWD prevalency. If you put a line on CWD prevalency and you put a line on Boone and Crockett entries and you’re able to track this over many years because we have all this data, do you does it correlate?
Speaker: 1
56:39
Does, like, CWD prevalently drive down big bucks? Right. It’s it’s ai it seems I’m sure that some I’m sure some mathematician out there has started to try to look at, like, if it’s true, but a lot of people on the ground say that that you do see popular population level impact from CWD.
Speaker: 1
56:57
And I’m guessing there’s no way it doesn’t affect participation, Meaning that people that would like to hunt and the whole the whole promise of wild meat is you’re you’re, you know, you’re getting, like, really healthy meat.
Speaker: 0
57:10
Right.
Speaker: 1
57:10
You’re able to control the food chain but then all of a sudden you throw in this question of, like, well, but it could give you a prion disease, ai. That’s gonna that’s gonna dampen people’s enthusiasm about deer and Ai and I’d hate to see meh get to a point where when when I look at a deer, I look at a deer with, like, great enthusiasm and love.
Speaker: 1
57:30
What happens when we look at deer and we look at them like a disease vector? Oh. Right? It does it become ai, like, do you view it like a rat or you see a vatsal you, like, recoil? Oh.
Speaker: 1
57:40
Like, I don’t want that shit in my yard. Right.
Speaker: 0
57:43
Right.
Speaker: 1
57:43
They carry disease, don’t they? I don’t
Speaker: 0
57:44
know if
Speaker: 2
57:44
your dog could get it. Yeah. Like picture down the road
Speaker: 1
57:47
that it that that ai deer, which are this ai universally loved praised animal, this kind of like symbol of the American outdoorsman becomes like a that shah out of my yard. You know?
Speaker: 2
57:59
What is when when Doug talks about, you know, they do a lot of testing in Wisconsin where
Speaker: 1
58:04
Doug is A lot of testing. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
58:05
What what’s the percentage that come up positive?
Speaker: 1
58:08
Man, they have I think that on Doug’s place, I think that, like, last year I don’t know if they got all the results from this year, but I think last year, they had close to 50% of bucks. Woah. Now it’s it’s it’s hovering. It’s ai very high.
Speaker: 2
58:25
And this is fairly bryden. Ai, a decade ago, they started appearing. Right?
Speaker: 1
58:29
Yeah. I think that I I think that CWD goes back maybe about a decade in his area. He’s in Richland County. Richland or Richland is he Richland County? Yeah. Richland County, Wisconsin. Somewhere in that ballpark. And it’s changed, like, I don’t you Sai when you were at Doug’s place, remember at Doug’s place, they used
Speaker: 2
58:46
to have this, they used to
Speaker: 1
58:48
have this slogan, like, nice buck next year, meaning
Speaker: 0
58:51
Right.
Speaker: 1
58:51
You know, let deer grow, let deer grow. And and Doug has really changed, over the years. He’s changed his tune and they and they really wanna try to, the idea generally with wildlife managers is that by lowering you’ll slow spread by lowering numbers. Ai? That if you have, you know, 40 deer per square mile, you’re gonna have increased spread.
Speaker: 1
59:14
And if it was 20 deer per square mile, 30 deer per square mile, you might slow the spread. But no one’s demonstrated a lot of success in slowing the spread of CWD, so other hunters will look at it and be like, yeah, you’re out there lowering deer numbers and so there’s half as many deer on the landscape, and CWD still spreads.
Speaker: 1
59:33
Right? So so there’s a you ai up with this question of like ai do you justify, trying to suppress deer numbers when you’re not demonstrating a lot of success and slowing prevalency sana the whole thing you’re afraid of is lowering deer numbers but you’re lowering deer numbers.
Speaker: 1
59:48
Right? But it’s like a controlled it’s a controlled lowering to slow the spread. Right. But there hasn’t been no one has an area to to to your point. You can’t go to a county.
Speaker: 1
59:59
I don’t think if I’m wrong, I’m wrong by maybe one county but I’m I’m pretty positive I’m not wrong and this is generally absolutely true. You can’t go to a county that had infected deer that no longer has infected deer. No one’s gone into a population of deer and eradicated CWD. Wow.
Speaker: 1
01:00:19
No one’s got no one’s got rid of it. That’s crazy.
Speaker: 2
01:00:22
Yeah. Has it jumped to moose?
Speaker: 1
01:00:25
Yeah. I think that, cervids so so ai white tailed deer, mule deer, elk. They found it they’ve had it transmit to caribou. Cow. I should know that.
Speaker: 2
01:00:36
Because moose
Speaker: 1
01:00:37
It’s got because it’s a cervid, so there’s no there’s no way of numbers,
Speaker: 2
01:00:40
like, you know That
Speaker: 1
01:00:41
ram not from that.
Speaker: 2
01:00:42
Right. But I’m saying, like, the thing about moose is there’s slower numbers and they don’t they don’t exist in, like, packs.
Speaker: 1
01:00:48
Yeah. Yeah. But since it is a cervid disease, I should know this since it is. I’m assuming they’ve they’ve found it in there. Mhmm. I can’t think of examples. I can think of, mule deer, ai tailed deer, elk, caribou, but I can’t think of whether or not there’s been a positive case of of moose.
Speaker: 1
01:01:03
And moose have a whole host of problems. Right now in some areas, particularly in the lower forty eight, the northern the northern states of the lower forty eight between wolf depredation and, and then, a tick. Oh. Like, a a tick is really hammering those moose right now.
Speaker: 2
01:01:19
Someone told me they went hunting and they got a moose and it was just covered in ticks.
Speaker: 1
01:01:23
Yeah. Yeah. There’s a problem with in this long series of mild winters, that that’s that these extreme colds that would lower these tick numbers down It hasn’t been happening. So you’re you’re you’re having animals literally ai, like, a lot of moose literally dying from tick infestations. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:01:44
And then Colorado’s becoming ai a great oh, here’s all the
Speaker: 2
01:01:47
Found in moose in many state provinces. There you go. Alberta, Saskatchewan, Colorado, and Texas. It says moose? What? Texas sai moose?
Speaker: 1
01:01:58
No. No. No. He’s, that’s not
Speaker: 2
01:02:00
arya in the Panhandle of West Texas. Exactly. CWD. No.
Speaker: 1
01:02:04
That that’s maybe. Yeah. That’s CWD, but That’s cockeyed.
Speaker: 2
01:02:07
Do they have moose in Texas?
Speaker: 1
01:02:09
No. No. I think it’s mixing up two things.
Speaker: 2
01:02:12
But it says it there.
Speaker: 1
01:02:13
CWD has been found in Texas.
Speaker: 2
01:02:16
Right. Sai they’re not saying moose in Texas.
Speaker: 1
01:02:19
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:02:19
Just Google, are there moose in Texas?
Speaker: 1
01:02:21
There are not. I mean, everything’s in Texas in some form of capacity, but, no, you’re way outside sai
Speaker: 2
01:02:28
in Texas.
Speaker: 1
01:02:28
You’re way outside of moose, the native range of moose. Yeah. Colorado is becoming ai a unexpected it’s blowing up for moose.
Speaker: 2
01:02:35
Really?
Speaker: 1
01:02:36
Yeah. Yeah. Colorado becomes better. I mean, they’ve always said moose, but, like, Colorado is becoming like a premier moose state.
Speaker: 2
01:02:42
When did that happen?
Speaker: 1
01:02:42
Just they’ve just been kicking ass there, you know, up in the high country. Meh. More and more moose. It’s sana like a great moose state. And meanwhile, like, Maine is is, really suffering as a moose state. Really? Yeah. So, you know, like, Maine’s whole brand promise, you know, is, like, around moose and then Colorado’s gonna steal it.
Speaker: 2
01:02:59
No well, it’s difficult to get a tag in Maine. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:03:02
That’s very hard.
Speaker: 0
01:03:03
Very hard.
Speaker: 1
01:03:03
Yeah. Ai? Yeah. But for non resident especially. I used to ai over there but I don’t apply anymore.
Speaker: 2
01:03:07
Now what what’s what’s causing the moose decline in Maine? Ticks.
Speaker: 1
01:03:12
Oh, god. Yep. Ticks.
Speaker: 2
01:03:15
Dirty little fucking things.
Speaker: 1
01:03:16
Yep.
Speaker: 2
01:03:17
Have you ever heard the conspiracy theory about Lyme disease?
Speaker: 1
01:03:19
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:03:20
That’s a weird one. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:03:21
Yeah. It is.
Speaker: 2
01:03:24
Seems ai there’s some legitimate concern there
Speaker: 1
01:03:26
that it
Speaker: 2
01:03:26
might have been a bioweapon that got out of hand.
Speaker: 1
01:03:29
Well, I think after the pandemic we just went through, I think people are more open to that idea. Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:03:33
Yeah. It was, widely dismissed by, you know, people that are a little bit more skeptical about conspiracies. Mhmm. But, RFJ Junior, he’s he believes it. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s very scary, this idea of these fucking eggheads experimenting with diseases and making them more infectious for whatever reason without also developing a cure.
Speaker: 1
01:03:57
Yeah. It is. It’s very strange. I guess the one justification you’d have is you’d be, like, well, by tinkering with it, we’ll better understand it. And if it ever happens naturally, we’d be able to combat it.
Speaker: 2
01:04:09
Yeah. How’d that work out? That didn’t really work out.
Speaker: 1
01:04:12
That’s prob that has to be the story you tell to yourself.
Speaker: 2
01:04:15
I think they just make money doing research. Ai think if you’re a researcher you know, like, if you’re a carpenter, you wanna build houses. They sai there’s too many houses. Like, come on. We fucking need houses, you know? You don’t want carpenter. I I make houses.
Speaker: 2
01:04:28
And if you’re a researcher in your field of studies, diseases and viruses, you wanted to study them. And if the money is involved in some sort of bizarre engineering of these things, which is what they’re doing, this fucking strange gain of function shit that they’re doing, you do it.
Speaker: 2
01:04:48
And if you can’t do it in America, ai, China? Okay. We’ll do it over there.
Speaker: 1
01:04:53
There was a famous buffalo hide hunter and he had talked about during the great slaughter of the buffalo. He had talked about now and then he’d commit himself to to stop. But sai he’d wake up in the morning and off in the distance, And he’s ai, someone else is doing it. So, I think that probably with the you know, I’m no pathologist, but as long as someone’s tinkering with that shit, everybody wants to tinker with that shit.
Speaker: 2
01:05:20
Yeah. Because you’re ai, well, I don’t
Speaker: 1
01:05:22
know what are they what are they doing over there that that I, what what am I missing out? Right. You know? Yeah. If they’re doing it, I wanna do it. Yeah. I don’t wanna be the one that looks like a fool. Then there’s research money.
Speaker: 0
01:05:33
Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
01:05:33
And let’s take good grants.
Speaker: 1
01:05:35
Yeah. And you know what? I bet you in some ways the pandemic spawned more of that type of research.
Speaker: 2
01:05:39
You think so?
Speaker: 1
01:05:40
Yeah. Because Ai meh, like, also now you can make the case of how important it is to understand this stuff.
Speaker: 2
01:05:47
Yeah. But you would also make the case ai, hey, how about you fuckheads come up with a a cure first?
Speaker: 1
01:05:52
Yeah. Start with that.
Speaker: 2
01:05:53
Yeah. Start with figuring out how to cure it.
Speaker: 1
01:05:56
Yeah. I’d see that.
Speaker: 2
01:05:58
It’s just ai there’s just not a lot of trust in the medical research institutions now. No. There’s been there’s been an erosion of that for sure. For for a good reason. Yeah. I mean, there was a real wake up call for people.
Speaker: 5
01:06:13
Mhmm. They’re like,
Speaker: 2
01:06:14
oh, there’s not someone with real objective oversight of all this, like, doing a really good job of maintaining everything. It’s not it’s not a really well maintained situation.
Speaker: 1
01:06:25
Yeah. I used to be a dude that, prior to that, I was a dude that accepted a lot of, I don’t know. I accepted a lot of assurances. And then there was a definite like, many people on I mean, I’m speaking for most people in the country, man. I feel like like many people, I gained a new skepticism
Speaker: 2
01:06:45
Yeah. Me too. During
Speaker: 1
01:06:46
the pandemic.
Speaker: 2
01:06:47
Yeah. I joked about it in my special.
Speaker: 1
01:06:49
About government author a new skepticism about some types of government authority and a new skepticism about the way health information
Speaker: 2
01:06:56
Yes.
Speaker: 1
01:06:57
Is spread.
Speaker: 2
01:06:58
Yeah. It’s just one of those things where anything involving money. Whenever there’s an enormous amount of money involved and then there’s a centralized control of information, like, where there’s people that have a distribution of information. And then there’s also the problem of exonerating people from any responsibility, which is what happened in ai 19 nineties or was it the eighties?
Speaker: 2
01:07:21
Whenever they, gave them because the vaccine manufacturers were saying, listen, we can’t manufacture vaccines because too many people are getting injured by them, and we’re going to have so much liability that we’re not gonna be able make manufacture vaccines anymore unless you give us immunity to prosecution.
Speaker: 2
01:07:39
Yeah. And so they gave it to them. And then all of a sudden, you’re getting 72 vaccines. And sai you’re get you were giving children hepatitis b. Hepatitis b for babies, which is just fucking crazy. Sai sexually transmitted disease for babies. Like, what are you doing? Like, why are you doing that?
Speaker: 2
01:07:55
Well, you’re doing it because you can. And because the more vaccines you give kids, the more money you make, and you’re not responsible. You don’t have to pay off anything. You you don’t get sued, which is just you can’t do that with these fucking corporations. They’re just too evil. They they’re sociopaths.
Speaker: 2
01:08:10
They act like sociopaths. They lie about studies. They lie about side effects. They minimize their responsibility, and they profit meh. And they continue to do so as long as they’re not punished. And that’s that’s the the business that they’re in.
Speaker: 1
01:08:27
Yeah. I I I get the frustration, but Ai mean, at the same time, like, I’ve been the recipient of, I’ve been the recipient of, like, remedies offered by Western medicine.
Speaker: 2
01:08:39
Remedies offered by Western medicine for diseases caused by science. Yeah. You are. Possibly. You are. Yeah. You are a
Speaker: 1
01:08:46
Lyme disease. Yeah. Some things Yeah. Like, if you well, no. It can take a take a natural thing ai giardia. Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:08:52
The
Speaker: 1
01:08:53
and these are, you know, I don’t think anyone’s arguing about vatsal.
Speaker: 0
01:08:55
But I’m
Speaker: 1
01:08:55
being ai, you get sick of shit.
Speaker: 2
01:08:57
Oh, listen Then all
Speaker: 1
01:08:57
of a sudden you take a pill and you’re quick.
Speaker: 2
01:08:59
No one’s arguing that medicine isn’t amazing. No. I mean, meh amazing. There’s but the problem with medicine is you got your scientists and your medical researchers and then you got your money people. Right? And the money people, they don’t even know how to make any of this medicine. They just know to sell it. Yeah. And how do I sell it?
Speaker: 2
01:09:17
I sell it ai, you know like, that’s ai remdesivir, where they were selling remdesivir during the the the COVID crisis. Remdesivir is fucking horrible.
Speaker: 1
01:09:25
What does that
Speaker: 0
01:09:25
I don’t
Speaker: 2
01:09:25
know that one. Kidney failure. They stopped prescribing it.
Speaker: 0
01:09:28
Oh, no.
Speaker: 1
01:09:28
I remember that one.
Speaker: 2
01:09:29
Fauci was selling it to everybody. You need to take remdesivir, and everybody was dying. That’s your impersonation. Horrible kidney failure. Yeah. That fucking creep. That read that book, The Real Anthony Fauci by RFK Junior. It’s a crazy book.
Speaker: 1
01:09:47
Yeah. I have, you know, I have Meh my buddy Seth was reading that book
Speaker: 2
01:09:50
when we were
Speaker: 1
01:09:50
out moose hunting, but I haven’t read it.
Speaker: 2
01:09:53
That book will change your opinion on a lot of shit. No. That’s a crazy book. And if it’s not true, he would be sued. There was a
Speaker: 0
01:10:00
point to
Speaker: 2
01:10:00
shit out of him.
Speaker: 1
01:10:01
Meh a cease and desist.
Speaker: 2
01:10:02
Well, it’s all documented. These guys I mean, it’s all backed up by, like, rock solid information. It’s all, like, very well documented. What actually happened during the AIDS crisis, what actually happened during the COVID ai, it’s all it’s all legitimate. It’s all easy to research.
Speaker: 2
01:10:18
It’s just scary that these people that you you don’t wanna have to think about that stuff all the time. You wanna just live your life and trust these. Oh, this is the medical institution. They they’re here to help us.
Speaker: 1
01:10:27
They’re here
Speaker: 0
01:10:28
to make
Speaker: 2
01:10:28
us feel better. Yeah. Yeah. But, no. A lot of them are just there to make money.
Speaker: 1
01:10:32
But I held that sentiment. Me too. Yeah. Me too. Till 4 years ago. A lot
Speaker: 2
01:10:38
ai changed, dude. I’m fucking super skeptical now.
Speaker: 1
01:10:41
Yeah. Ai also
Speaker: 2
01:10:42
changed. Super skeptical of the, herd mindset that people fall into. Whenever there’s some sort of a pandemic, when there’s a high level of anxiety, a lot of people fall into this herd mindset.
Speaker: 1
01:10:53
Yeah. And
Speaker: 2
01:10:54
that scares the shit out of me too because there’s just a lot of people that are cowards and they’re afraid to they’re afraid of public humiliation, public, you know, public criticism. They’re afraid of getting ostracized from the community if they don’t follow suit like everybody else is doing, and so then they start to try to enforce it on everybody else.
Speaker: 2
01:11:13
Ai like the people that were yelling at everybody else. Where’s your mask? Put your mask on. Like, you know, there’s people I went to a restaurant the other night. The fucking guy served me sai a mask on. Like, I would fire this guy. I would not like, you can’t No. This is nonsense.
Speaker: 2
01:11:26
You can’t be wearing a fucking mask. This is crazy.
Speaker: 1
01:11:29
I read a op ed in the free press the other day. You know, Barry Ai publication? And it was about when they had rolled back they had rolled back, masking laws. I kinda forgot all about this. Like, you used to not be able to run around with mask on? Yeah. Ai of, like, criminal activity? Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:11:48
So one of these one of these dudes that pushed pushed a person in front of a subway, it was must have been premeditated to some degree because hood mask. Right? Yeah. So you can’t identify him on security footage.
Speaker: 2
01:12:00
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:12:00
And the dude that shot that health care Mhmm. Insurance CEO Mhmm. Like masked. Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:12:06
But you
Speaker: 1
01:12:06
don’t think anything of it. Right. So this this person was arguing in some capacity. They were they were arguing that, we need to move back to anti masking rules Yeah. To fight crime, which I you know, I get the sentiment. But I also thought, like, if you had vatsal time prior to the pandemic, if you had told me that there was restrictions on wearing a mask, you know, I would have thought I would have been surprised about that.
Speaker: 1
01:12:34
Because it seems like how can you dictate to someone that you have a, like, a little stagecoach robber bryden on your face? Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:12:44
Do you know
Speaker: 1
01:12:44
what I mean? It’s like a weird it’s like a weird thing. It’s ai, can you really, can you really tell people that they they they can’t wear a mask? But this person is saying, you could. We did. And now that you’d now that you now you’ve granted, like, criminals some level of anonymity ai that, you can just kinda ai you’re cool just
Speaker: 2
01:13:01
to walk around totally obscured. Well, it’s also you’re you’re dealing with people that have severe anxiety if they think that that mask is actually gonna protect them. It doesn’t do jack shit. Sure. Especially if you’re wearing the bandana. The bandana is just ridiculous.
Speaker: 1
01:13:13
Sure. But I’m not look oh, yeah. But yeah. But I’m not looking to have a rational argument with mom. Just just ai surprise like something I hadn’t considered that you could, have a that you could add a, you know, make a law telling people about wearing a mask or not.
Speaker: 0
01:13:27
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:13:27
I just forgot all about that shit because you just didn’t but it would be that if you went back 6 years ago and you saw a dude with a mask and a hood on Yeah. You might be like, the hell is his problem? Yeah. Now you’re like, oh, he’s real scared of COVID.
Speaker: 2
01:13:39
Real scared still to this day. I mean, someone sent me a video of this guy who wears mask every day, and he’s been pushing for masking. He’s ai like severely mentally ill.
Speaker: 1
01:13:48
Yeah. Well, that that is.
Speaker: 2
01:13:49
Overrun with anxiety. Just like ai advocating for masking. We shall all be masking and double masking and
Speaker: 1
01:13:56
If you had a mask on and put on all the time, you wouldn’t be just 10% less famous. You’d be 70% less famous.
Speaker: 2
01:14:02
I got I got spotted a lot when I had a mask on.
Speaker: 1
01:14:04
With your mask on?
Speaker: 2
01:14:04
Yeah. With a mask on. Yeah. Yeah. I kinda yeah. Mom’s short and ai. You know, I have an odd shape. Yeah. You know, I think people, you know, look, is that Joe?
Speaker: 1
01:14:16
That burly little meh.
Speaker: 2
01:14:18
Fucking chimpanzee looking dude.
Speaker: 1
01:14:22
Bald head?
Speaker: 2
01:14:23
Yeah. All muscled. I wear a baseball hat, sunglasses, mask, and they’re like, is that Joe Rogan? Even even without, like, seeing my tattoos, like, I just getting busted.
Speaker: 1
01:14:34
You know, it might be because you, are known, sitting in that seat in that posture. And so maybe when you’re in the airport, you should try a different
Speaker: 0
01:14:43
sit you
Speaker: 1
01:14:43
should try a different pose. Lean Pose. Yeah. Lean back. Because ai might just be they might be just picking you off by your, seating position.
Speaker: 2
01:14:50
Oh, no. Ai was just walking down the street. I was getting called out. No? Yeah. I’m getting with sunglasses on and a baseball hat.
Speaker: 1
01:14:56
Yep. You’ll be 10% less famous.
Speaker: 2
01:14:59
Yeah. That’s too late. That that fucking chicken is full on the coop. Mhmm. Yeah. That’s over.
Speaker: 1
01:15:05
No one doing it now.
Speaker: 2
01:15:06
I think you should stop masking. I think it should be illegal. I think it’s ridiculous. In New York, they made it so that if you go into a store, you have to pull your mask down so that facial recognition will work. Really? Yeah. Because they were getting so many people getting robbed. So many stores are getting robbed and you could never catch that.
Speaker: 0
01:15:24
Oh, so
Speaker: 1
01:15:24
there is yeah. There is a movement back to that.
Speaker: 2
01:15:26
I think it was the mayor who was, like, proposing that. But they should just make it illegal to wear a fucking mask. You’re a psychopath. Like, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work and it’s not protecting you. So what are we doing? You’re just covering your face. Well, you can’t cover your face because we live in polite society.
Speaker: 2
01:15:41
We sana make sure that people can’t commit crimes wearing a fucking bank robber mask. No. This is nuts.
Speaker: 1
01:15:46
It a little bit you being, like, you being a very libertarian dude. I don’t know if you ai yourself that way. Pretty much. Yeah. I I view like, I’m a little surprised. I remember you you were having a conversation with JD Vatsal. JD Vance made a comment about, just not a serious meh.
Speaker: 1
01:16:03
Made a comment ai, you know, dude shouldn’t wear skirts or some shit like that. And you’re like, they should totally be able to wear skirts. Yeah. Women get to wear them. Why can’t men? You know, it was it was it was all set with levity. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:16:14
But Ai was a little surprised, like, I could picture you as well. Ai could picture you as well really feeling ai how could you ai?
Speaker: 2
01:16:23
It’s a public safety thing.
Speaker: 1
01:16:24
Obscuring your face.
Speaker: 2
01:16:25
Yeah. Well, we ai to find a There’s
Speaker: 1
01:16:27
no public there’s no public safety in skirt.
Speaker: 2
01:16:30
Ai guys got weird knees. That’s I I recognize those knees anywhere. No. I mean, skirts is just a a choice. I mean, if you wear shorts, why can’t you wear skirts? It’s crazy.
Speaker: 1
01:16:41
No. No. I get it. It’s public yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:16:43
If a guy
Speaker: 1
01:16:43
wants to wear a dress,
Speaker: 2
01:16:44
what do I give a shit if a woman wants to wear a business suit? Am I mad at Ellen for wearing a business sai? You know? Am I gonna be pissed off at Hannah Speak for dressing up like a man? Like, come on. You should be able to wear whatever you wanna wear. I don’t care about that. But I care about public safety.
Speaker: 2
01:16:58
Like, you you shouldn’t be able to cover your face where you can’t be identified if you commit a crime. There’s we’ve we’ve all agreed to that. Like, that’s just ridiculous. It used to be a thing that you couldn’t do. You couldn’t walk into a store with a bank robber mask on.
Speaker: 2
01:17:11
It used to be if you walk into a bank with a mask on, people would freak out. And now if you during the pandemic They
Speaker: 1
01:17:17
probably start shooting they probably start shooting
Speaker: 2
01:17:18
at you. Yeah. You walk into a bank without a mask, people get angry. Put your mask on. It’s ai we lost our mind. But the thing is they should have realized it very early on that there’s no science to it. And there was a doctor who pointed this out very early on in the pandemic, and we highlighted it, and people were very upset at us.
Speaker: 2
01:17:36
This doctor was talking he was a virologist, and he was saying, do you know how ridiculous this is? Let me show you. Yeah. And he used a vape. So he took a big hit of a vape, he put a mask on, and he blew vape smoke through the and he’s ai, the particles in vape are so much larger than these virus particles.
Speaker: 2
01:17:55
If you’re breathing through this mask, if this mask allows you to take in air, you’re taking the virus. If it allows you to blow out air, you’re blowing out the virus. Shut the fuck up. Yeah. This is just stupid. This is just pretending.
Speaker: 2
01:18:08
And in the beginning, I was like, okay, everybody just wants you to be a good person. You wear the mask. But it’s it’s so weird because during the the crisis, we all, we did UFC fights. And the UFC fights, the corner meh used to have to wear masks. So, like, I’ll see, like, highlights from, like, 2021 and you see, like, the corner men with the mouth, like, ai. I forgot about this. Yeah. Sai ridiculous.
Speaker: 2
01:18:32
Every and their nose is hanging out. It’s ai the whole cover your nose. Oh, yeah. Okay. Like, as if it matter, like, okay. This this really works.
Speaker: 2
01:18:39
And you couldn’t walk into a store like this. People go, that’s not good enough. This is not good enough. Oh, it’s I forgot my mask. Sure.
Speaker: 2
01:18:45
What do you want me to do? Ai is the same goddamn thing. Like, what are we doing? Can I just buy toothpaste like this? No. You can’t.
Speaker: 2
01:18:53
You have to have an actual mask. Shah is the difference between this and a fucking bandana? 0. There’s no difference. It’s so stupid.
Speaker: 1
01:19:01
I went through 2 years of, like, needing
Speaker: 2
01:19:03
to yell at my kids all the time because if you travel with your kids and
Speaker: 1
01:19:06
they never got the stupid things on, you know, you’re like, but then you’re not you’re not even you’re not even yelling at them about that if they’re gonna prevent them from you’re not saving them from a disease. You’re saving them from being ostracized or yelled at by the flight attendants. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:19:19
Sai you
Speaker: 1
01:19:19
speak 2 years being ai, put your damn mask on. Put your mask on. I don’t think it works.
Speaker: 2
01:19:24
Like, no one it’s not about whether
Speaker: 1
01:19:25
it works. You just gotta do it to not get in trouble.
Speaker: 2
01:19:28
Yeah. I had a conversation with my kids. I’m like, this does not work. Just want you to know. It’s not gonna make you safer. It’s not gonna They both had COVID early on. They got over it quick. So they weren’t nervous about COVID at all. I go, this is just for other crazy people that are riddled with anxiety. Yeah. You put this on, they feel okay. It’s not gonna be forever.
Speaker: 2
01:19:44
It’s gonna be and we’re gonna look back on this. We’re all gonna laugh. And that’s ai, every now and then, I’ll go through, like, my closet and I’ll put a jacket on that I haven’t worn forever and I reach into a pocket and I pull out a fucking stupid surgical mask. Sure. I’m ai, Jesus Christ. I can’t believe we went through this.
Speaker: 1
01:19:59
Yeah. We’ve kinda found them all and got rid of them.
Speaker: 0
01:20:02
But I
Speaker: 1
01:20:02
ai be surprised there’s one ai. It
Speaker: 0
01:20:04
was one
Speaker: 2
01:20:05
of the things that Sanjay Gupta brought on brought up when I did that podcast with him. Like, you sell masks on your website. I go, what? You think I sell them because they’re real? I sell them because people have to wear them. So if you wanna wear them, wear a little JRE mask.
Speaker: 2
01:20:18
Like, I don’t sell them because I think they’re good. Yeah. Like, shut the fuck up. I wish I wish they were illegal to sell. How about that?
Speaker: 2
01:20:26
I don’t want what would I make a dollar
Speaker: 1
01:20:28
off those fucking 4s? You’d forgo the profits?
Speaker: 2
01:20:30
I would pay to have them illegal. I’ll I’ll give the government $10,000 a year to make masks illegal. Fuck you. You guys are fucking crazy. The whole thing was crazy. It was really weird. It was like a psychology experiment on the whole it was just it was a good experiment to see, like, how many people around you are bitches who just fall in line the moment things got weird.
Speaker: 2
01:20:53
Yeah. And it’s a lot. There’s a lot of people just have no ability to tolerate any discomfort, any weirdness, any uncertainty, any anxiety. They just immediately, like there’s so many people out there that have always had parents and then bosses and then, you know, supervisors and and they’re always, like, following rules, always following rules and assuming somebody has your best interest in ai.
Speaker: 2
01:21:18
And they don’t. Yeah. They don’t. There’s just humans. Just a bunch of humans out there and a bunch of people that don’t wanna take responsibility for this fuck up that they’ve created and they wanna lie and distort things and gaslight the whole population.
Speaker: 2
01:21:33
And then somehow or another, these people that are doing that are allowed to spend 100 of 1,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars on advertising and on on television. And so now the television networks will never criticize them because they get all this fuck you know, this is ai the argument about advertising for pharmaceutical drugs.
Speaker: 2
01:21:54
You know, we’re the only country other than New Zealand in the whole world that allows pharmaceutical drugs to advertise.
Speaker: 1
01:22:01
Oh, is that right?
Speaker: 2
01:22:02
Yeah. It’s just us in New Zealand. New Zealand’s far more restrictive than us. But our, the way our system is set up, all these television networks, CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, they all rely on a giant percentage of their advertising budget comes from pharmaceutical drugs.
Speaker: 1
01:22:18
And don’t you just love those ads?
Speaker: 2
01:22:20
But it’s not. But here’s the thing. It’s not to sell more drugs. It’s so that those people will never criticize those drugs. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:22:27
Nice. Yeah. I’m familiar with the argument. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:22:29
Yeah. The ads are great.
Speaker: 1
01:22:30
Yeah. It’s like some it’ll be always be some dude just kicking ass.
Speaker: 2
01:22:34
Yeah. Having a great time.
Speaker: 1
01:22:35
Wakes up, jogs with his buddies, kicks ass all day. At night, he’s like at night, he’s ai out with his lady, you know, and he’s ai getting ready and it kinda ends at the end
Speaker: 2
01:22:44
of the night. You’re like, that’s something
Speaker: 1
01:22:45
that should get lucky, you know. Yeah. It’s like ask your doctor if such and such. And you’re like, shah, I wanna kick ass like that old guy.
Speaker: 2
01:22:51
And then they read off the side effects. The side effects at the end, suicidal thoughts, powerful ai, like, oh, god. You know, bleeding. Oh, Christ. It’s a we we live in a weird world, man. It’s a weird world. It’s a a world you know, whenever you involve money and things, money, profit, and the ability to ai, you know, you get a lot of a lot of real shady things.
Speaker: 1
01:23:15
It what what frustrates me already is it’s gonna be impossible to explain it. Like, now I can’t it’s very hard to explain the ai terror attacks to my kids. Mhmm. You know? And I wanna be when they make in 10 years, 20 years, whatever, when they make a docuseries on this on the COVID 19
Speaker: 2
01:23:39
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:23:39
Pandemic and the social response and the government response. Like, I really wanna be in the room on the edit. I was like, don’t forget about you know what I mean? Like like Yeah. The the telling of how it happened. Yeah. Like, I I I if I I would like to go into a time machine and go forward and and see how it is told later.
Speaker: 2
01:23:59
Yeah. You
Speaker: 1
01:23:59
know? Like, we’ll watch now.
Speaker: 2
01:24:01
You know, we’ll watch meh now.
Speaker: 1
01:24:02
You know, you watch something about the Cuban missile crisis. Right? But you just picture dudes that were active during the Cuban missile crisis or, like, no. Right? Right. They’re gonna be there there’s even a term there’s a term that’s called meh, some meh syndrome. Maybe Jamie can look it up for us.
Speaker: 2
01:24:25
What’s the term about?
Speaker: 1
01:24:26
It’s that it’s the alpha no. Not the alpha gel syndrome.
Speaker: 2
01:24:31
Alpha gal is the No.
Speaker: 1
01:24:32
It’s not alpha gal. It’s something gel. The syndrome is this. Or no amnesia. Something gel gel man gel type in gel amnesia, if you don’t mind. It’s killing me.
Speaker: 5
01:24:42
Gel man.
Speaker: 1
01:24:43
Gel man amnesia. It’s that let’s say you’re let’s say you’re seeing something you have a lot of subject matter expertise in. Okay? So let’s say you’re reading you, Joe, are reading, and then someone’s analysis explaining, like, here’s what’s up with with, mixed martial arts. Okay?
Speaker: 1
01:25:00
An ai, an outside journalist who’s assigned to do a piece
Speaker: 0
01:25:03
Mhmm. And
Speaker: 1
01:25:04
they do a piece ai, what’s up with mixed martial arts?
Speaker: 2
01:25:06
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:25:07
And you read it. And what’s probably the main thing you’re gonna be thinking the whole time?
Speaker: 2
01:25:11
Does this guy know what he’s talking about? Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:25:13
You’re gonna be like, that that that’s totally not.
Speaker: 2
01:25:14
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:25:15
That’s not the conversation. Right. Right. That that’s not what that is. Right. You missed the point. Like, do you notice that everything you read, we know a lot about. Let’s say let’s say you read a piece of reporting and it’s a reporting about the podcast industry.
Speaker: 2
01:25:26
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:25:26
Where it came from, how it’s monetized. Yeah. Mostly what you’re gonna feel is that’s not what that is. Right. That’s incorrect. Right. Well, this form of amnesia is that you forget that. So then later, you’re reading an article about a thing you don’t know well. Right. And you’re ai you feel like you’re getting the straight dope.
Speaker: 2
01:25:47
Right. Right. Right. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:25:48
But someone somewhere who knows the world well is reading it and they’re having the same feeling you have every time you read about something you know well which is this person has no idea what they’re talking about. Right. So you fall on the trap that the amnesia is you forget.
Speaker: 1
01:26:02
And you take things you’re not aware of and when you get the dope on them from someone, you’re forgetting how fucked up everything is the when when you do know about it.
Speaker: 2
01:26:12
Well, the hope is that with AI in these large language models is that AI will be able to distribute information objectively without vatsal. And that is the case in a lot of situations where they haven’t been they they haven’t been corrected yet. Like, AI is subject to human influence, obviously, like, I’m I’m sure if you’re aware of the Google Gemini situation. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:26:35
The Google Gemini situation is the best one because they said, you know, create images of Nazis and they had multicultural Nazis.
Speaker: 0
01:26:45
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:26:45
But if it has to analyze information about specific things just based on just what’s actually available, Oftentimes, it will give you a very accurate assessment that you wouldn’t get from a newspaper because the newspaper would be more they would be more interested in adhering to whatever particular ideology they subscribe to. Yeah. So they would flavor things through an ideology and probably gaslight you a little bit about the other side’s perspective. Yep.
Speaker: 2
01:27:17
The the the hope is that in the future with large language models and especially as they become more and more sophisticated, you’re gonna be able to get an accurate objective assessment of things that doesn’t have any human influence.
Speaker: 1
01:27:30
Oh, man. I don’t dude, come on. Was it impossible?
Speaker: 2
01:27:34
Oh. It’s possible with
Speaker: 1
01:27:35
some things. The hope where it’s possible, but, no, I Ai don’t have, like sure. Possible. I Ai don’t picture that being the case.
Speaker: 2
01:27:42
Well, there are some large language models that aren’t fucked with, especially open source ones. The problem is they’re they’re essentially drawing from the entire Internet. Right? So you you would have to assess, like, where these large language models are getting their information from
Speaker: 1
01:28:01
Sure.
Speaker: 2
01:28:01
And making sure that they’re so this is the thing you could kinda game that system by, rigging these large language models to accentuate information that comes from more ai sources. You know, you could distort the information that people Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:28:16
And someone would be someone would be motivated to do it.
Speaker: 2
01:28:20
Yeah. Until they get so sophisticated that they would be able to discern that, and they would be able to base it entirely on objective analysis of statistics and facts and understand what these statistics are.
Speaker: 1
01:28:34
I did this little this little event last night at this place here in town called Arena Hall, and, the moderator of the event, it was like a q and a or, you know, chat. And he was asking me, like, as a writer, as an author, what are your fears about AI? And I’m ai, AI is like, in very short term, like, AI is coming for, like, certain types of writing.
Speaker: 1
01:28:59
Like, certain types of writing are gonna be made obsolete by AI. Yeah. But the reason I have the the reason I don’t worry about it as of now as a writer is, like, it’s always gonna be representative of it’s always gonna be representative of input. Right? Like like, the input has to come in from people who are out digesting real experience. Right. Right? It’ll get faster. You know?
Speaker: 1
01:29:25
The point I use is if you earlier Ai alluded to, like, the assassination on attempt on Trump. The day before that, had you asked AI about details about it, it doesn’t exist. Right? Ai Right. The whole thing gets fed in.
Speaker: 1
01:29:38
Sai if you if you remain on some level of cutting edge about thought or cutting edge about analysis or cutting edge about what’s going on in the world, you’d you’ll have to start being more careful about being, like, that that your work remains at the vanguard of of feeding into the system of newness.
Speaker: 1
01:29:56
Right? Yeah. And that’s gonna be, like, a big challenge, like a big challenge as a writer. But I remember coming up as a writer too in the old days and being super scared of the Internet in general. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:30:08
And and I was like, man, this ain’t gonna be good for a writer.
Speaker: 2
01:30:13
Well, you know, they thought about that with the printing press.
Speaker: 1
01:30:16
I’m sure.
Speaker: 2
01:30:17
Yeah. I’m sure.
Speaker: 0
01:30:17
Do you
Speaker: 2
01:30:17
know what the the early books? Do you know what most of the early books were about?
Speaker: 1
01:30:21
That was monks transcribing them, but I don’t know.
Speaker: 2
01:30:23
No. When the printing press was produced.
Speaker: 1
01:30:26
Mathematics maybe? Nope.
Speaker: 2
01:30:27
How to spot witches.
Speaker: 1
01:30:29
Oh, really? Yeah. That was a hot topic?
Speaker: 2
01:30:30
Yeah. It was all about witches and witchcraft. Yeah. How to spot sorcery.
Speaker: 1
01:30:33
No. I didn’t know
Speaker: 2
01:30:34
that. Yeah. It was a lot of bullshit. Wow.
Speaker: 0
01:30:37
You would
Speaker: 2
01:30:38
think, like, oh, it’s just knowledge and information. Finally, the world’s gonna know the truth.
Speaker: 1
01:30:42
No. No. No. No. I had no idea.
Speaker: 2
01:30:44
It’s a lot of, like, how to spot witches. They were the the most popular books.
Speaker: 1
01:30:47
Yeah. But I think that, like, creators yeah. Ram a, like, a creative perspective, you got ones that that run away from new. Right? And you got ones that run toward it. Yeah. I used to be the runaway from.
Speaker: 2
01:31:04
Mhmm. I
Speaker: 1
01:31:04
used to something came out and I was like, this ain’t good. What do you know? I Ai I guess I’ve like ai through enough changes in the media landscape that I I’m not as terrified as I once was. Right? Yeah. Like, you know, I I always sai, like, the first time I heard the word podcast was in context of your name. Right? And, and, Ai.
Speaker: 2
01:31:26
I remember the first podcast we did. You’re ai, what is this? This? I don’t know what the hell it was. We were at the ice house. It was the whole setup was ridiculous.
Speaker: 1
01:31:34
Yeah. You had a delayed flight.
Speaker: 2
01:31:36
I had a delayed flight.
Speaker: 1
01:31:37
Yeah. We started real late. You’re coming back from something.
Speaker: 2
01:31:39
Oh, yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:31:40
But anyhow, yeah. I used to be, like, I used to be, I used to be
Speaker: 0
01:31:45
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:31:45
Scared of incoming.
Speaker: 2
01:31:47
Well, most people were in the especially podcast. It seemed so ridiculous. Most people thought it was stupid.
Speaker: 1
01:31:53
Yeah. And you even said that you you were doing them and thought it was stupid.
Speaker: 2
01:31:57
Well, I did it because I thought it was fun.
Speaker: 1
01:31:59
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:32:00
And then, you know, after a while, I was like, oh, this is actually like a business. Mhmm. You know? I remember having a conversation with you about it. Was ai, you should do a podcast. Yeah. Like, there’s a lot of money in this. Like, it’s real now.
Speaker: 1
01:32:11
Yeah. No. I I wouldn’t have done it had you said it.
Speaker: 2
01:32:13
Well, it seemed
Speaker: 1
01:32:14
Ai been late to the game, maybe. Yeah. But
Speaker: 2
01:32:16
you got on early.
Speaker: 1
01:32:17
Yeah. Well, you
Speaker: 2
01:32:18
were such a good guest. I was like, this is like something you have to do. Like, this is like, you have so many opinions on and you’re so well read. It’s like a perfect place for you where there’s no interruption. You could just have conversations about something that’s ai right up your alley.
Speaker: 1
01:32:29
No. I’m glad I did. And then the other thing is it it just infuses you with infuses you with so much knowledge. Yeah. Because ai you said, you get to you get to corner people you sana corner.
Speaker: 2
01:32:40
Oh, yeah. That’s the best part. Yeah. The best part is the unintended education. Yeah. You just have conversations with so many people. And when else would you get an
Speaker: 0
01:32:49
expert to sit
Speaker: 2
01:32:49
down with you for down with you for 3 hours and put their phone aside Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:32:53
And just
Speaker: 2
01:32:53
look me in the eye? Tell me how this started. Tell me what how do you figure that out? What is that? How’d you get involved in this? What’s what’s the beginning of this? And then, you know, it’s beneficial to everybody who listens too. It’s a weird new thing.
Speaker: 1
01:33:07
You know what you know what I sana tell you about? Because it’s like this thing I’m trying to hunt down is, I recently had a guy on my podcast whose name is Randy Brown. And, my brother Danny recommended him too because he works, he’s a fisheries biologist in Alaska. So he came out in the show and what what he did is in the seventies.
Speaker: 1
01:33:27
He he grew up in New Mexico and always wanted to live in the woods. Ai? Like, just grew up camping in the mountains and stuff. And in the seventies, he goes up to Alaska and just goes live in the bush along the Yukon sana then did it. I mean, for 15 years.
Speaker: 1
01:33:43
For 15 years, he lived in the bush in Alaska just building little cabins and lived off the land. I mean, like, didn’t wasn’t buying groceries, like, lived off the land ram in Alaska. He tells me this story and I’ve been I’ve been trying to put the word out about this. He he tells me a story where I’ll have to go check.
Speaker: 1
01:34:03
I think it was in 78. In 1978, he’s on the Yukon River just downstream downstream the Yukon from Canada. He’s between Circle, Alaska and Eagle, Alaska on the Yukon. And him and his friends are living their lives in all these, like, line cabins they got strung up and down the river. Okay?
Speaker: 1
01:34:19
2 guys come down the river out of Canada. So, again, this is 1978. 2 guys come down the river out of Canada on a homemade log raft. The the this guy in Randy’s circle, one of his buddies he tells this whole story on the podcast, but one of his buddies has a cabin down on the river and these 2 guys pull in in this homemade raft.
Speaker: 1
01:34:44
They pull in for the night at this cabin. 1 of these individuals identifies himself as John the Baptist. Oh, boy. Okay? In the middle of the night, his companion, John the Baptist’s companion gets back on his raft and scoots Oh, boy.
Speaker: 1
01:35:01
And abandons the dude, abandons this guy in 1978 who came out of Canada who identifies himself as John the Baptist. John the Baptist becomes this incredible leech on these guys that are living in the bush, eating their food, using their stuff, taking their ammunition. He lingers long enough that it becomes that he can’t really get out of that area because of freeze up on the river and they keep telling him you gotta go somewhere else and they say you gotta leave here.
Speaker: 1
01:35:32
You can go stay at one of our other cabins. Don’t touch our shit. He goes up to the other cabin that when they eventually go up to the other cabin, he had taken a bunch of their stuff. He’d taken some of their furs and made his own clothes. They they boot him out and they tell him what you gotta do is you gotta go down to the river and go up or down, wait for a boat and go up or down but he comes up with this cockamamie plan where he’s gonna go to this area.
Speaker: 1
01:35:54
They’re ai, no way can you walk to that area. He takes off into the woods. Now, when he does, he steals this guy we had on the podcast, Randy Brown. He steals Ram Brown’s snowshoes and takes off. Randy Brown gives chase It was a real bad snow year. He tracked him for about 5 miles and just said, never ai. It’s not worth it.
Speaker: 1
01:36:17
The next year, he takes a different route, goes into the headwaters of this river where this guy had taken off with his snowshoes and he’s canoeing down the river and sees his snowshoes hanging in a tree. Okay? And there’s a little cabin there, a little ai cabin they had out and he goes in and here’s the guy stoned dead, starved to death in a sleeping bag.
Speaker: 1
01:36:38
Woah. Snowshoes are hanging outside. Starved to death. Starved to death. He sai he’s nothing but skin and bones. Wow. Nothing but skin and bones.
Speaker: 1
01:36:44
They take him out, and they’re way out in the bush. They have no money. They just live off land. Like, they they he literally has no money. He’s got no way to transport a body in the summertime to, like, Eagle or Circle, Alaska.
Speaker: 2
01:36:59
Does he have a responsibility to do that?
Speaker: 1
01:37:02
Isn’t this is in the seventies, man. He he did, ai, he explains himself. He explains himself and did well, he didn’t. He laid the they took the body out of the sleeping bag, they wanted to check it out. He said it was just skin on bone and it brought up some because I’m gonna talk about cannibalism in a minute but it was skin on bone and he doesn’t know what to do and he’s not bashful about what he did.
Speaker: 1
01:37:27
He lays out, like, why he had to do what he did and they kept the sleeping bag to use it because it was a their sleeping bag and they laid this body out on the tundra. Told a few people but didn’t really know what to tell him, they didn’t never caught the guy’s name. Told it to a few people, a while later he goes back and the body has was gone, presumably been eaten by something.
Speaker: 1
01:37:48
So after we do this interview, I can’t stop thinking about this dude. And I’m like, how can it not be that someone out in the world like, someone has a kid or a brother arya uncle. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And they never know what happened to him? Yeah. There’s no you know? He’s from Canada.
Speaker: 0
01:38:10
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:38:10
It came ai 19 seventies. Seventies calling himself John the Baptist. I yeah. They do. And I but I kind of felt ai doing like, I kind of felt and I Ai put it out on social media. We talk on the podcast. I’m bringing it up here. Like, dude, if like, I would love to know that someone said, like, oh, I used to party with a dude named John the Baptist.
Speaker: 1
01:38:27
In Canada.
Speaker: 2
01:38:28
Ai.
Speaker: 1
01:38:29
Yeah. I mean, who is this guy?
Speaker: 2
01:38:30
Maybe this will do it. I don’t know. Maybe you talking about it, like, someone will reach out. Yeah. But then you gotta wonder if someone’s just fabricating it because they want information. No. For sure. Or they want attention rather.
Speaker: 1
01:38:40
For sure. It’s it kinda sticks in my head. And I and I and I said to him, to Randy, you know, he it was crazy. He he wound up getting a honorary doctorate. And, like, once him and his wife had kids, he became ai a world’s expert on whitefish species of the Yukon River and got, like, a honorary doctorate. Oh, wow.
Speaker: 1
01:38:56
Yeah. He’s ai a leading authority on certain whitefish species in the Yukon. This dude ai in the bush like that all that time. Wow. But I told ai, I I he says, man, I thought about it a lot. You know, I thought he goes, maybe you’ll maybe you’ll figure it out.
Speaker: 1
01:39:07
I thought about it all the time for a while. What happened? I asked my brother, Danny. I’m like, when I have this guy on the podcast, what should I ask him about? And he goes, ask him about the guy ai found.
Speaker: 1
01:39:17
So he gives me this book. He gives me this book, and it’s called, death in the barren grounds. Okay? And it was this he’s got a he he Randy used the term starved out, and you could tell that all the time he spent living in the bush, like, starving to death is very much on his mind.
Speaker: 1
01:39:37
Like, him and his body’s even made up a sort of pact. Right? So, like, hey, meh. Like, if it comes down to it, don’t hesitate to eat my body. Jesus. Which you should. He gets to just book Death in the Bearing Ground.
Speaker: 1
01:39:51
It’s about these guys in the twenties, these 3 dudes in the twenties that go up on this Thelon River which flows into the Hudson Bay. Then they go up in the they’re ai north of the tree ai, but they’re in a timbered grove, and they go up there to trap for the winter and their whole plan is to live off caribou, but the caribou never come through.
Speaker: 1
01:40:08
And the youngest one keeps this meticulous journal in this book. He keeps this meticulous journal and he documents with painstaking detail the 2 people he’s with starving to death and himself eventually starving to death. He lets off at a point. It’s unclear when he died. He had the wherewithal to put the journal in the stove and to make a sign that said look in the stove.
Speaker: 1
01:40:33
And when they found him a couple years later, they were able to find ai journal. But, it got so bad that they’re ai crushing animal bone, which is which is a thing that’s not gonna talk about this with this Donner party deal I was working on is these guys are crushing animal bone and boiling it to to get some kind of nutritive value out of crushed animal bone and they’re eating animal hide.
Speaker: 1
01:40:59
Okay? Like, you scrape away the hair and you can boil animal skins and and eat them. I’ve done that. It just makes like a gelatiny kinda tasteless like leather noodle basically. And what he’s documenting as they’re dying from this is, the horrible bowel obstruction. Oh.
Speaker: 1
01:41:20
And they’re trying to make, like, in his journal, he’s describing this of trying to make these these enema devices. Oh. And even for a while on each other trying to perform like a operation on each other each other because that bone fragment that they’re they’re boiling that bone fragment and drinking it but that bone fragment in their bowel is like reforming Oh, god.
Speaker: 1
01:41:45
Into bone plugs. And even when they find these guys, years later, a guy from the, Canadian Mount of Police is ai doing this very, you know, like a basically a crime scene description of what went on in here and still laying there a couple years later is a plate full of ai solidified excrement.
Speaker: 1
01:42:03
Oh, god. Everything else rotted away. These guys are just skeletons but that ai bone shit. Yeah. And you look at, like, you and I I just finished this book the other day and, so you look and be, like, oh, they’re starving to death, starving to death but, like, when you arya, vatsal this stuff is actually going on and it like, that had to have been fatal.
Speaker: 1
01:42:26
And we’re working on you know, Moe who’s been on the shah, we’ve been working on this project, which I’m, you know, wanting to plug, but we did an episode on the Donner party, who died up in the mountains in California. And the Donner Party, in addition to the cannibalism they’re famous for, it was so crazy because before I read that book, we’re hearing all about that the members of the Donner Party were eating the crushed bone and eating the boiled hides.
Speaker: 1
01:42:52
On the other thing is all those hair follicles, would form into dense balls that would, like, plug your rectum. And he’s just describing all this as they die. It’s horrible. But that dude, Randy Brown, gave me that book because you could tell that in his mind, man, like ai, starving out, like, it stuck with him.
Speaker: 2
01:43:13
You know, and he’s walking around handing out a
Speaker: 1
01:43:14
book about starving to death in the arctic, you know, because he knew it well. But that was like in that same thing like Donner Party being ai known for the cannibalism and all that is, all those people ai and probably like a lot of the same thing, eating that hide and hair and crushed bone.
Speaker: 1
01:43:33
Just miserable. People have
Speaker: 2
01:43:35
a very delusional perspective when it comes to, like, surviving and living off the land. Oh. How difficult it would be.
Speaker: 1
01:43:42
Oh. In talking to him, when he talked about that guy that struck off, like, this is after a long time he spent in the bush. He talked about the guy that struck off and the guy struck off with a 22 pistol and, Randy’s like, you cannot in that environment, you cannot survive with a 22 pistol.
Speaker: 1
01:44:01
Like, he just knows that categorically you cannot survive with a 22 pistol and the dude didn’t. Yeah. How could you? Yeah. He well, you people would probably think that they’re such a badass that would.
Speaker: 1
01:44:13
He’s like, what
Speaker: 2
01:44:13
do you have?
Speaker: 1
01:44:14
I don’t know. I don’t know how many he had. But he said you won’t you won’t make it. And he made a point that 22 pistol when they found that body, that 22 pistol’s hanging on a peg and hanging out a peg inside the cabin where he found them.
Speaker: 2
01:44:26
I mean, there’s no way you’d have enough ammunition even with a pistol. You’re limited in your range. You’re limited in your accuracy.
Speaker: 1
01:44:33
No. They did everything with 240 threes in in those years that he did that. And they would load, like, variable loads. Why variable loads? He’d make light loads and heavy loads.
Speaker: 2
01:44:45
Oh, okay. For different animals? Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:44:46
They make little grouse loads and shah. They’d load their big game bullets, you know. All the 243.
Speaker: 2
01:44:53
Hunting moose with the 243, caribou with the 243. Where is he getting all the gunpowder? Or is he getting They
Speaker: 1
01:44:59
were loading their own stuff. Wow.
Speaker: 2
01:45:01
So you have to go somewhere to get resupply.
Speaker: 1
01:45:04
Yeah. They would they had a camp load. That one of their camps, they had a reloading station. The the various guys who live in the bush would kinda come in there and use that reloading station. And that John the Baptist dude looted that reloading station.
Speaker: 2
01:45:17
Yeah. You gotta kill those guys. Those guys have caused cause you to starve to death. Yeah. If you’re in that kind of an environment and someone’s a mooch No.
Speaker: 1
01:45:26
But you know what’s weird is about it that I can that someone point out to me later. I think John the Baptist, ai, John the Baptist from the Ai. I think John the Baptist starved to death. Really? So that’s ai a little bit of a confusion is yeah. How would that be?
Speaker: 2
01:45:41
Is that real?
Speaker: 1
01:45:42
Yeah. There’s this dude there’s this kid Ai I might have told you about ai, this this French kid Etienne Brule, that the French brought over and, like, he’s known as Etienne Brule, and the French brought him over during the colonial era and and gave him to the tribes sai he’d learned their language.
Speaker: 1
01:45:57
And eventually, he gets crossways with the Huron Indians, and the Huron Indians killed him and, allegedly ate him. So everybody knows him as Etienne Brule but which is burnt. Right? But did he get the name after or before?
Speaker: 2
01:46:16
Ai, what Was it a self fulfilling prophecy?
Speaker: 1
01:46:18
Like ai so you’re like, well, Mohammed, did he just happen? Like, he presumably got burned to death Right. Or boiled or whatever. You know? So it’s ai, is he Etienne Bryden because of what happened to him? Or was he running around with that moniker and then, like, lo and behold.
Speaker: 1
01:46:31
So the John the Baptist thing is baffling to me.
Speaker: 2
01:46:34
Did John the Baptist in the ai I’m not familiar. Did he definitely starve? Can you
Speaker: 1
01:46:38
No. People keep telling
Speaker: 2
01:46:39
me that. Beheaded. Yeah. Oh, he’s beheaded.
Speaker: 1
01:46:42
He didn’t starve.
Speaker: 5
01:46:43
But the word on the streets is beheaded in prison.
Speaker: 2
01:46:45
The word on the streets.
Speaker: 1
01:46:47
Well, someone was sent someone sent me this big passage talking about his emaciated state.
Speaker: 0
01:46:52
I’ll look that up.
Speaker: 2
01:46:53
Maybe he was emaciated before they cut his head off. Yeah. Don’t worry about it. Maybe they were saving him from a fate worse than death.
Speaker: 1
01:46:58
No. Can I talk about my project? Sure. Please do. Well, I’m working out with Moe, who’s been in, you know, been on the show before. Yeah. Meh and I, we did the very early MeatEaters together. You you probably met him that way, right, originally?
Speaker: 2
01:47:16
I met him that way. And then when he did, Bourdain shah
Speaker: 1
01:47:20
Yep. So we did very early MeatEaters together. And we’ve always kept in touch,
Speaker: 2
01:47:24
and he went on and did all that,
Speaker: 1
01:47:25
you know, crazy stuff with Bourdain and got heavily involved in that. And then after Bourdain’s death, there was this kind of, I don’t know, man, almost like this, like, exodus of saloni. Like, all these people that worked on that great shah. You know? And they went on to do other stuff, and and then Meh and I got joined up on this and we’ve worked on Moe’s a show runner on it and we’ve worked on it together.
Speaker: 1
01:47:49
And, it’s coming out January 28th and it’s a show on History Channel where we look at outdoor mysteries. So I brought up we did an episode on Donner Party. And, you might ask, like, what’s the mystery about the Donner Party? But it’s kinda like what happened, could it have gone differently, like, what mistakes were made?
Speaker: 1
01:48:07
And most of these mysteries that we do are things that I have that most people have some awareness around. Right? Like, you you’ve heard you’ve at least heard of it. Ai I think that people think about the Donner Party, for instance, just take an example. You make people make when they’re making a joke about cannibalism, you’ll be ai, oh, Donner Party. You know what I mean?
Speaker: 1
01:48:26
Like, people don’t realize what happened there but in in going to that place, I think I never realized about it. That that there was 90 people that got stranded in the Sierra Nevada that winter 1846 to 1847. Sai thing that you never ever ai and that changes everything I’ve ever thought about half of those more than half of those were kids.
Speaker: 2
01:48:49
Oh ai god.
Speaker: 1
01:48:49
Yeah. You don’t think about it that way. Right? It’s mostly children. And you get into all this wild stuff about it like, you’re trying to keep your kids alive. Yeah. Right? So there’s a sort of ai, earlier I said I’ll talk, you know, touch on cannibalism. Ai talk about Randy Brown making that cannibalism pact.
Speaker: 1
01:49:08
You try to keep your kids alive and the kids ai and large, the kids survived. The kids survived at a much higher rate than adults. And out of adults that survived, parents
Speaker: 2
01:49:23
did
Speaker: 1
01:49:23
better. Parents are more likely to survive. They when they sent a little subgroup off to try to go get help, a lot of the people died on the way of trying to get help. Parents lived. Parents who had kids back at the main camp survived. So it’s this whole weird thing about, like, the psychology of why keep going on. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:49:42
You know what I mean? And then, like, you think about it from that angle, like, if your kids were faced with starving to death, you would absolutely feed your kids human meat. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Right? So you look at it like this American horror story, but in the end, like, all those 90 people, like, half lived, you know, half of them ai.
Speaker: 1
01:50:03
And they just they did they always did just, like, what they needed to to ai, you know? But then there’s, like, the the the those families still carry the stigma. Of course. You know? It’s ai it’s terrible stigma.
Speaker: 1
01:50:18
But, like, getting into that, like, getting into that story and starting to realize that then following that up with reading that book about, like, the pain and anguish of of starving to death. Like, you wind up, like, having just more, I wind up a lot more empathy and just, you know, but you always kinda sana honor those people rather than condemn them as ai these like like Sai said, it’s like an American Horror Story.
Speaker: 2
01:50:45
You can’t condemn them. We’ve all done the exact same thing. To to condemn them is just so that it’s it’s a horrible way to look at it. No. It’s a survival story. I mean, human beings will ai it’s like those, soccer players that got Yeah. In the plane crash or do you know the story of the 2 boats that tried to make their way across the Arctic?
Speaker: 2
01:51:09
It was ai was it, was the terror in another boat? There’s a Netflix
Speaker: 1
01:51:15
series drama. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
01:51:16
But the Netflix series is like a horror series. They bring in ai a mystical monster and stuff and Got it. And the people ai resort to cannibalism. But they tried to make it across this, path and they got frozen in in their boats and they’re waiting in the spring for the the ice to thaw and it never thawed.
Speaker: 2
01:51:35
And they meh stuck there, and then they tried to walk out and and make it to the to the ocean and they never made it.
Speaker: 1
01:51:42
Yep. But And there was they wanted to happen to do cannibalism.
Speaker: 2
01:51:46
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:51:46
In in the Donner part, they would, at times, in in some of these cases, they had a little system where you would not where you would keep the carcasses separate so that people didn’t have to eat their own kin, eat their own relatives. They mostly ate people that died of natural causes but at the ai, there was no prohibition. There was no legal prohibition on killing Indians.
Speaker: 1
01:52:08
They had 2 Indian guides with them and a guy murdered them. Wow. They murdered them to eat them and never faced any repercussions for it. It it was more illegal it was more illegal to kill someone’s cow than it was to kill 2 Native Americans. Wow. Yeah. He just walked.
Speaker: 1
01:52:26
Everybody knew he did it. Never faced any repercussions for it. Murdered 2 people to eat him. Other than that, they were eating people that were already there. Jesus.
Speaker: 1
01:52:35
When we were out there, filming in Donner Pass, we we met these people and they’re saying that these guys were doing this thing about places named, with Christmas names, And he had thought Donner
Speaker: 2
01:52:48
ai Donner and Blitzen? Oh god.
Speaker: 1
01:52:53
Not the funniest man.
Speaker: 2
01:52:54
That’s crazy. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:52:55
So I speak a ton like, I spent, you know, 2 months 2 months traveling with Meh, maybe a little over 2 months traveling with Moe working on this whole thing. It’s been fun, though, man.
Speaker: 2
01:53:06
So what is the name of the show?
Speaker: 0
01:53:08
It’s
Speaker: 1
01:53:08
called Hunting History. Oh. Yeah. It’s not a hunting show. Hunting History.
Speaker: 2
01:53:12
There it is.
Speaker: 0
01:53:12
There’s a hunting history. There’s a hunting history. There it is. There’s a hunting history.
Speaker: 2
01:53:13
There’s a hunting history. There’s a mountain arrow. Arrow.
Speaker: 1
01:53:14
Channel. That one, that episode oh, it’s like a whole little trailer.
Speaker: 2
01:53:20
So what is the the idea of the show?
Speaker: 1
01:53:22
It’s like outdoor wilderness mysteries, outdoor When I was, for instance, when I was growing up in the Great Lakes region, there’s a the the first ship they ever built on the Great Lakes is called the Griffin and no one’s ever found that ship. That ship went missing in the Great Lakes and, people are still trying to hunt for that ship.
Speaker: 1
01:53:46
It’s kinda like, you know, it’s regarded as the holy grail of Great Lakes shipwrecks. There’s still people actively searching for it. We do an on Donner party.
Speaker: 2
01:53:53
What’s in the ship that they’re trying to get?
Speaker: 1
01:53:55
It would be gone now. It was full of beaver pelts. It was full of about ai 6 tons of beaver pelts.
Speaker: 0
01:54:00
Wow.
Speaker: 1
01:54:01
And, there’s all these different theories about that the crew mutinied, whatever. But there’s a guy, this dude named Steve Ai, who came out of, who came out of, like, naval intelligence, the naval intelligence world. And this guy named Steve Leibert is the latest, has the latest claim of having found the Griffon.
Speaker: 1
01:54:20
So I went and dove Ai went and dove that that site to check out his claim of having identified the ship. Yeah? Yeah. I don’t think he’s got it.
Speaker: 2
01:54:30
No? No. What do you think it is? What do you think you found?
Speaker: 1
01:54:35
There are it ai kinda blows your mind when you think about the Great Lakes. There are literally thousands of missing ships, and then there are meh, many ships that are there, but no one knows what they arya I I think he’s I think he’s found a very old ship, but I don’t think he’s found the griffon.
Speaker: 2
01:54:54
6,010,000 shipwrecks. Wow.
Speaker: 1
01:54:57
Yeah. Wow. The burden of the the burden of proof on finding the griffin is is hard. So this dude you you you’ve heard of the guy LaSalle LaSalle? No. He wound up dying down in this neck of the woods. He built the 1st shah, and he he got above Niagara Falls and built a big ship and built the 1st ship that ever sailed the upper great lakes.
Speaker: 1
01:55:17
So he went all through the upper great lakes, went to Green Bay, filled it full of beaver hides to get himself out of debt, sends all those beaver hides back down to Niagara but they go missing along the way. He makes his way down. He winds up being the 1st European to descend the Mississippi to the mouth.
Speaker: 1
01:55:35
And then later, he gets into ai a, a mutiny of sorts down in lower Mississippi. Gets in a mutiny of sorts. 1 of his guys shoots and kills him. Just kind of this whole it’s just run of shitty luck, but he lost his ship. So there’s all this different evidence of of pointing to where this ship might lie. But it’s almost certainly ai it’s somewhere.
Speaker: 1
01:56:02
It’s somewhere, you know, because stuff lasts so long, ai, in that fresh water, stuff lasts so long. You go look you go dive down and look at ships that are 100 years old, 200 years old, looks like you could refurbish things. Really?
Speaker: 5
01:56:13
You know,
Speaker: 1
01:56:13
the southern rural ones get broke up by ice. Yeah. So that ship’s laying around. Wow. I’d like to tell you we found it.
Speaker: 2
01:56:20
Oh, ai.
Speaker: 1
01:56:21
I hung out with a bunch of dudes that are looking for it.
Speaker: 2
01:56:22
The lakes are so big. Yeah. I hung out
Speaker: 1
01:56:25
with dudes that are looking for it. And now people are getting really good at it because all the sophisticated sonar. That’s why they’re finding all this crazy shit.
Speaker: 2
01:56:31
I don’t think people understand how big the Great Lakes are. No. They’re literally like oceans.
Speaker: 1
01:56:36
No. They’re so big. Especially when you add them all together, you know. Yeah. In place, it’s pretty deep. But, yeah, they’re littered with stuff, man. And dudes, like, there’s just there’s just common dudes now that can buy really sophisticated sonar and underwater cameras, and people are just finding stuff like mad.
Speaker: 2
01:56:51
Oh, now there’s more sophisticated technology.
Speaker: 1
01:56:52
Because you you just cruise around. You can just cut grids on sana. So you got dudes that are out there just identifying wreck after wreck after wreck right now.
Speaker: 2
01:56:59
You are
Speaker: 1
01:56:59
the first why there’s a lot of enthusiasm that someone’s gonna turn this boat up. But it has these big cannons. It should have these big French built cannons. And until someone finds the cannons, no one’s gonna buy what you’re saying. Cannons? Yeah. They yeah. LaSalle brought cannons from Europe, mounted them on the boat.
Speaker: 2
01:57:16
So ai, like, to in case someone was
Speaker: 1
01:57:18
trying to use raiders? Did they have pirates back then? They did. But also, they just would, you know, try to intimidate Native American tribes and, you know, they’d get them into the fur trade but also there’s ai rogue people and you’re also at that ai, the French are duking it out with English had a big toe hold up in Hudson Bay.
Speaker: 1
01:57:34
So you got the English there. You got the Spanish to the south. Just a ton of conflict and people still ai to duke it out over who’s gonna control the Great Lakes. Wow. So there’s this argument too which is crazy.
Speaker: 1
01:57:45
Like, picture if we had a picture if we had a naval vessel that sank off France right now. It’s not France’s it’s not France’s boat. Right. Right? Because we have all these agreements in place. It’s like our boat. So they would have to hand it over to us. It’s flying under our flag.
Speaker: 1
01:58:00
It’s it remains our vessel. There’s this argument that, LaSalle’s ship was flying under a French flag. Whoever finds that ship, there’s an argument that the French would be able to claim that ship. So even if some dude, like some freelancer, was to find it and find those cannons and shit and finds this ship, there’s an argument that the French could say, we’ll take it from here, son.
Speaker: 1
01:58:21
Woah. Yeah. They’re flying under our flag, and our international treaties mean that that’s our boat, which would decentivize me and sana to find Yeah. Like, fuck that. Imagine you
Speaker: 2
01:58:32
go through all that work?
Speaker: 1
01:58:33
Yeah. They do it for glory.
Speaker: 2
01:58:35
Goldwrecks, like shipwrecks and people, like, hunting for those things, that’s a fascinating
Speaker: 1
01:58:40
It is, man.
Speaker: 2
01:58:41
That’s sai because if you get lucky and if you find one that’s filled with, like, Roman coins Yeah. Like, you we’re talking about 1,000,000,000 of dollars.
Speaker: 1
01:58:51
Lot lot of money to be made. We were do we were gonna do our last episode when we went and did the Donner party. What we were supposed to be doing is we were supposed to be hanging out with guys that are still this whole fleet of Spanish vessels that went down off the, East Coast of Florida.
Speaker: 1
01:59:05
So the the Atlantic side of Florida, we were gonna go down with these guys that are still fighting over and finding all this stuff from all these sunken ships, but then the the hurricane, like, I mean, like, passed right over it. So we didn’t get to go do that. We didn’t go do that show.
Speaker: 1
01:59:22
We did one about, that that centered that shah wanna become a mostly a story that centered around, in the seventies. There’s this aircraft that was carrying the speak of the house. So do you remember, was it is it Nina? No. Hey, Jamie.
Speaker: 1
01:59:41
I I I I hate to be treating you like a research assistant here. Hale Cokie Roberts. That’s who you you know the journalist Cokie Roberts from, like, NPR and shit? Okay. Yes. Yeah. Cokie Roberts’ father was this ai, Hale Boggs. Okay?
Speaker: 1
01:59:54
Hale Boggs was a democrat ram he was a speaker of the house in the seventies. And Alaska had, at that time, only 1 Alaska had a sole congressman. There was an airplane that had Begich, their sole congressman, the speaker of the house, an assistant, and a pilot that went down in Alaska in the seventies.
Speaker: 1
02:00:13
Still no one’s found that plane. Speaker of the house. Like, imagine that happened now. You know what I mean? Yeah. 1972. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:00:24
And it it makes sense in the last Oh, it it does, but then you get into the huge number of all these missing aircraft and, like, all that search centered around this glacier, that it would been that it would have been swallowed by a glacier. And we went to this other site where this military transport plane years ago did go down in a glacier and the glacier swallowed it and I think it was, you know, I don’t know, 20 some years later, that glacier started to spit that plane out at the toe of the glacier.
Speaker: 1
02:00:52
Like, it carried it. I don’t know what it is, 13 miles
Speaker: 0
02:00:55
Woah.
Speaker: 1
02:00:56
Under the ice and then started to spit out human remains and plane parts. Every spring, the military goes to the foot of that glacier. Every spring they go there or sorry. Every summer, they go to the toe of that glacier and they’re still identifying they’re still identifying human remains that are moving out of that thing miles away from where that plane burrowed into that glacier.
Speaker: 1
02:01:19
Wow. Yeah. We went right there.
Speaker: 2
02:01:23
1952.
Speaker: 1
02:01:24
Yeah. Wow. Look at that that wheel. Yep. And on top of that glacier, we had got there after that. We flew over in the helicopter. They don’t want you landing there. But on top of that glacier is all this orange paint, orange paint spots. They weren’t working there anymore, but you can tell they were in there marking everything that you can see coming out of that as that glacier recedes. Wow.
Speaker: 1
02:01:45
And they’re marking all those pieces. Sai, this this other glacier where, like, most of that search focused for that baggage bogs flight focused on this one glacier but if you do the math on that glacier, had it gone into that glacier where they had spent a ton of time looking at, like, into a crevasse in that glacier, had it gone into that glacier, the glacier would have spit it out by now because you can kind of track how much a glacier moves every year.
Speaker: 1
02:02:10
So now it’s kind of the idea that it was in that glacier has been kind of put to rest. Oh, here’s dude searching that one. Oh, why
Speaker: 2
02:02:16
you could see as you move how far it travels.
Speaker: 1
02:02:20
Wow. Yeah. Meh. We went there. We went down into some of those crevasses like that too.
Speaker: 2
02:02:26
Do you you ai down into one of those things?
Speaker: 1
02:02:28
Yeah. Which is scary as shit.
Speaker: 2
02:02:29
Fuck that.
Speaker: 1
02:02:30
Because that stuff is alive, man. It’s moving. I mean, not like literally ai, but it’s like groaning and moving. Oh. Yeah. We went down back back down to one of
Speaker: 2
02:02:40
those. Sound ai.
Speaker: 1
02:02:41
You know, it was pretty quiet that day, but it was actually more peaceful there because you know how much that all that cold air from that ice generates so much wind. Mhmm. We we land this helicopter there, and, the wind’s howling. And I don’t know much about aviation. I mean, I I use it a lot but, the wind’s so bad.
Speaker: 1
02:02:59
I was asking the guy, what point do you risk that your helicopter’s gonna blow off the glacier? And a couple minutes later he’s a very experienced ai. But a couple minutes later, he winds up tethering down his helicopter because he’s like, now you’re, like, fucking with my head.
Speaker: 1
02:03:15
So he tethers down his helicopter on these ice screws, you know, to, like, make sure the the the helicopter doesn’t slide and go down into a crevasse. And then you, you know, I just I was with a very experienced ice climber, but, harness up and pick your way down. But, anyways, it’s ai meh it’s like so loud and you hear a lot of the you know, the noise of all that ice moving because it’s moving all those rocks and everything.
Speaker: 1
02:03:40
It just pulverizes stuff as you see with that that aircraft. But when you drop down in that when you drop down in that crevasse and go down that sucker, it gets, like, unbelievably calm. Real calm.
Speaker: 2
02:03:54
How far did you go down?
Speaker: 1
02:03:56
Oh, shit. Not that far. Probably 30 feet.
Speaker: 2
02:03:58
That’s far enough. Oh, far enough for sure.
Speaker: 1
02:04:00
It’s unnerving. It’s unnerving. I said that there’s a lot of ai
Speaker: 2
02:04:03
to me just hearing
Speaker: 0
02:04:03
you from that.
Speaker: 1
02:04:04
I remember you telling about your, like, your, you you know, that, that that chamber you like to go into? Yeah. Yeah. It’s not quite like that, but it’s like you just all of a sudden are ai but you’re also in there just thinking ai how you just how you could meh, Smushed. Oh, just obliterated. Yeah. You know? There’s stories.
Speaker: 1
02:04:21
I was hunting with this dude years ago and he used to he used to be involved with Outward Bound and they were doing a glacier hike. A guide was doing a glacier hike and they had a kid like a bryden. I think it was Outward Bound. They had a student go off to take a piss and into one of those things never found because there’s big rivers flowing underneath that stuff. God. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:04:45
So picture you, like, you go down. Oh. So you’re down there. You can hear water running everywhere. You can hear rivers underneath you ai that, but you’re you’re roped up. You know? But even the rope you’re on, you’re just screwing screws into the ice.
Speaker: 1
02:04:58
And then at a certain air temperature, right, like, it it the screw conducts heat, you know. So at a certain air temperature, like, if you drive that screw in and that screw is conduct is pushing heat, it’ll melt the ice around the threads. So you’ll actually, like, drill these big holes into the glacier like a v.
Speaker: 1
02:05:21
Picture picture you coming in like the a v in the 2 upper parts of the v are like 30 inches apart and you drill at a 45 degree angle until those holes meet then you snake a rope down one hole and get it snaked out the other hole and then tie a knot in that and that’s what’s holding you.
Speaker: 2
02:05:43
Oh, fuck that.
Speaker: 1
02:05:44
Because if you put that screw in there at a certain temperature, the the threads of the screw are moving like solar heat and atmospheric heat down the threads that can melt the thread out. Oh. So you’re you’re just you’re tied in on a little, like
Speaker: 2
02:06:00
yeah. You’re you’re you’re, like, tied Hoping it holds on.
Speaker: 1
02:06:03
Onto a hunk of the ai. He backed down into those suckers, dude. It’s ai it’s sai ass pucker.
Speaker: 2
02:06:08
Well, that’s how they found the ai man. Right? He was in a crevasse. Was he in a crevasse? Wasn’t he? Ai think he fell into a a glacial crevasse.
Speaker: 0
02:06:16
Oh, shit.
Speaker: 1
02:06:16
I don’t remember that.
Speaker: 2
02:06:17
I think as the glacier melted, that’s how they found his body.
Speaker: 1
02:06:19
Oh, I know they found him on a melted glacier, but I ai know that he was it was I didn’t know those supposed that he fell into a crevasse.
Speaker: 2
02:06:25
I’m not sure, but I think that was the story that they feel like he fell, like he was involved in some sort of mortal combat with someone. Yep. Shah with an arrow. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:06:34
He was all tore up. Yeah. No. They made a movie about his last days.
Speaker: 2
02:06:38
Does that?
Speaker: 1
02:06:39
A fictional movie.
Speaker: 2
02:06:40
Really? Ram haven’t
Speaker: 1
02:06:40
watched yeah. It’s a European fictional movie. Did you ever see the movie? And it sort of sets up the whole circumstance. Right? I haven’t seen it yet, but it sets up the whole circumstance.
Speaker: 2
02:06:49
These are really dumb movies.
Speaker: 1
02:06:50
Otzi was his name.
Speaker: 2
02:06:51
Yeah. Otzi. They named him. I’m sure that wasn’t his real name. No. He’s got a tattoo. Fucking name.
Speaker: 1
02:06:56
He had a tattoo by his shoulder.
Speaker: 2
02:06:58
That was his wife.
Speaker: 1
02:06:59
He had tattoos.
Speaker: 2
02:07:00
Yeah. He did have tattoos, which is really wild. This is 1000 of years ago. Right? There’s a really dumb movie about an Ai that, I think it was like the 19 eighties. I think it’s called Iceman.
Speaker: 1
02:07:10
No. I remember that. They they they bring up a guy back to life.
Speaker: 2
02:07:12
Yeah. And then the wife falls in love with him and fucking
Speaker: 1
02:07:15
Oh, shit.
Speaker: 0
02:07:15
I ai know
Speaker: 1
02:07:15
that happened, man. That happened to them?
Speaker: 2
02:07:18
Sai dumb. Yeah. The the yeah. The Ai, takes a liking to this guy’s wife.
Speaker: 1
02:07:23
Oh, that’s the plot?
Speaker: 2
02:07:25
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:07:25
I thought it was more like an ET plot. No. No. No. Like, they they they resuscitate them, and then the scientists sana get at them.
Speaker: 2
02:07:32
Is this it? Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:07:33
That’s where he starts getting
Speaker: 2
02:07:34
Is this the same one? Yeah. The guy gets back to life, and I think he falls in love with the lady. They he, like, is hanging out with people. And then, you know, the Ai
Speaker: 1
02:07:45
That’s her?
Speaker: 2
02:07:46
Yeah. I think he winds up falling in love with her, and the scientist gets real mad.
Speaker: 5
02:07:50
So it’s the plot of Encino, man. They just feel like that?
Speaker: 2
02:07:52
It is. That was it. It is. It’s Paulie Shorff. We
Speaker: 0
02:07:58
made it
Speaker: 1
02:07:59
to you.
Speaker: 2
02:07:59
Yeah. They thaw him out, and he’s okay, which is fucking hilarious in and of itself.
Speaker: 1
02:08:04
The other night, we were watching, watch these old movies like this. The other night, we were watching
Speaker: 2
02:08:10
Timothy Hutton.
Speaker: 1
02:08:11
Temple of, Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom. Mhmm. And, you know, the the love interest, like, the the in these love interest in that movie. I can’t remember what her name is. But, anyways, we’re watching with our with our youngest kid and, who really wanted to watch an Indiana Jones movie.
Speaker: 1
02:08:29
And my wife’s like, man, you just can’t have teeth like that anymore in the movies. The the love interest, you know. Like, you you forget, like, how perfect, like, oral processes have made everybody’s teeth.
Speaker: 0
02:08:43
Oh.
Speaker: 1
02:08:43
And so here’s, like, this woman whose, like, job is, like, you know, she’s, like, the hot woman in the movie that everyone want that everyone’s gonna fall in love with. And you look and you’re, like, you’re like, yeah, you’re right. Like, teeth are so perfect on everybody now, you know.
Speaker: 1
02:08:57
And you’re looking vatsal old movie, you’re like, oh, that’s before they were able to do all
Speaker: 2
02:09:00
that. Right.
Speaker: 1
02:09:01
That’s funny. We watched that We watched that we watched that stupid show on New Year’s Eve, you know, that ball dropping
Speaker: 0
02:09:08
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:09:08
Thing.
Speaker: 2
02:09:09
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:09:09
And just, you know, every single person even kind of involved in that whole production has those teeth. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:09:18
Well, most of those teeth are fake now. Oh, no. That’s what I’m saying, man.
Speaker: 1
02:09:21
Like, but absurdly sai, you know. And it was just really funny to look at that and be like, you’re right. Like, there’s something that looks like you can’t put your finger on it. It’s like the the the the heroin absent perfect teeth.
Speaker: 2
02:09:32
Right. Do you remember Lauren Hutton? Sai that gap between her teeth,
Speaker: 1
02:09:35
it was kinda hot. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:09:37
It was ai part of her her charm. She had this gap.
Speaker: 1
02:09:40
Yeah. Nowadays, you’d feel some pressure to go tighten that up.
Speaker: 2
02:09:43
Yeah. You know? Probably.
Speaker: 1
02:09:44
They put some shit on your teeth and tighten it
Speaker: 2
02:09:46
up. Big movies, you gotta tighten that up.
Speaker: 1
02:09:48
Tighten it up.
Speaker: 2
02:09:49
It’s funny you were talking about the beaver pelts. Mhmm. Because, you were the first person to explain to meh, like, the richest man in the world at one point in ai, his business was beaver pelts.
Speaker: 1
02:09:58
Yeah. It was America’s 1st homegrown millionaire, John Jacob Astor.
Speaker: 2
02:10:03
That is so crazy.
Speaker: 1
02:10:04
Yeah. So he was a German, he came over as a young kid. He didn’t have, you know, broke penniless aster comes over, just sai ai an immigrant. Right? Comes to the US. He’s trying to figure out a way to make his to to to make his way in America. And in New York, he meets a guy in the fur business like a furrier. And the guy sai, a lot of money to be made in in furs.
Speaker: 1
02:10:28
And, and that was, like, that was the commodity for, North America. When you look at all the English powers coming or all the European powers coming to establish colonies, you know, it’s known like the Spanish come in and they get ai all that Aztec gold, all that ink and gold.
Speaker: 1
02:10:47
Other European powers were ai jealous about the wealth Spain was pulling out in mineral wealth, and they always thought that in in our area up in what’s now the ai US, you know, eventually, gold did come out, but they were sort of, like, primarily, like, we need our own gold fields.
Speaker: 1
02:11:02
But what emerged was the was fur. You know, fur was our thing. Fur was, like, the thing of value. So Aster became a fur bryden, and, you know, helped launch these fur trapping expeditions what and became involved in what we now call the mountain man area. Like, when you hear the term mountain meh, the mountain meh era.
Speaker: 1
02:11:23
So we, in my in my sort of other job outside of doing my his channel shah, like, we do audio originals and, we did one on the deerskin trade called the long hunters. It was about Daniel Boone 17 seventies in the deerskin trade and right now, we’re coming out with one called MeatEaters American History The Mountain Men and it covers that like John Jacob Astor era of the beaver trade and what all those do so when you hear about Jim Bridger, John Colter, Meh Smith, what they were producing, they were producing a material that would be used to make felt hats.
Speaker: 1
02:12:00
Like, that’s what that was all about. Wow. Rather than you’d think if all and when when they would trap a beaver so, you know, the revenant
Speaker: 2
02:12:12
Fucking beavers were around back then.
Speaker: 1
02:12:14
A lot. You know, more more even though we’ve recovered them really successfully, there were far more beavers back then than there are now. But you
Speaker: 2
02:12:21
could the estimated population of beavers back then that are people invaded?
Speaker: 1
02:12:25
In the tens of millions.
Speaker: 2
02:12:27
Wow. You know? What are they now?
Speaker: 1
02:12:29
Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know. No. I do know because I’d looked at it the other day, but I forgot what it is. I forgot what it is. It’s it’s a they’re very recovered across a big part of the range, but nowhere near what it was at the time. You know, the the the the whole continent, was shaped by beavers, like, they they manipulate their landscape more than anything besides humans. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:12:53
But people had always whittled away at them, you know. Like, earlier I mentioned Daniel Boone, ai, his primary job was a deerskin he was in the deerskin trade and what they were using for back then. You notice you really old pictures of, like, ai and shit and they got those ai of white pants on.
Speaker: 0
02:13:08
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:13:08
It’s probably a buckskin pant. Right? So our whole term with, like, when we say a buck, something’s worth a buck. Right. That’s about the equivalent value of a deer skin.
Speaker: 2
02:13:16
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:13:16
So, you know, that’s where that term came from. Those guys at the same time, they would hunt deer skins in the summer because they wanted them real thin and then they would switch and they would hunt beaver pelts in the winter to for wool felt to create wool felt. But we kinda gradually, extirpated like wiped out beaver numbers.
Speaker: 1
02:13:36
And then, when you get to 1804 and the Lewis and Clark expedition, Lewis and Clark push into the interior in the into the Northern Rockies and around the headwaters of the Missouri and when they come back to Sana Louis, like, one of the things they report on is ai holy shah.
Speaker: 1
02:13:53
Like, we found the the the the last great stronghold of the beaver is in the rockies and that’s what pushed this whole mountain man era. So when you watch the revenant ai Hugh Glass, you know, meh mauled by the grizzly Yeah. Those guys were all like their thing was they were beaver trappers and earlier, I mentioned the English up around Hudson Bay.
Speaker: 1
02:14:18
So you’re familiar with this thing called the Hudson Bay Company from from history?
Speaker: 0
02:14:21
Yes.
Speaker: 1
02:14:21
It’s like a fur trading enterprise. The Hudson Bay Company in the English always had this model of the fur trade where they would build posts and then incentivize Indians to hunt fur or trap fur. They didn’t ram ai, the the English weren’t themselves trappers. The English were traders and they would incentivize tribes to go trap and bring them the furs.
Speaker: 1
02:14:43
In the rockies, that didn’t work. They couldn’t get these nomadic equestrian bison hunters with the program. They they thought it was, you know, by and large, the sentiment was it’s beneath us. We’re not gonna give up our whole ai way. Everything we need comes from the buffalo. We live in big family groups. We follow the herds. Like, I don’t I’m not gonna go trap beaver for you.
Speaker: 1
02:15:06
It’s of no interest to me. So then they’re ai, well, shit. How are we gonna get the beaver? And so they start hiring dudes. They start hiring orphans and people that that that, were under indentured servitude and ran away, whatever.
Speaker: 1
02:15:19
They hired these big groups of Americans out of the colonies, the former colonies because that time of the United States. They ai these guys and sai, you’re gonna go out and live for years at a time in the rockies and trap beaver and here’s where to meet us on such and such date every year.
Speaker: 1
02:15:36
So go to this valley.
Speaker: 2
02:15:39
Right? Wow.
Speaker: 1
02:15:40
Go to Jackson Hole or or go to Daniel, Wyoming or Bear Valley, wherever, and we’ll meet you in June. And you bring all the shit you caught, and we’ll give you some more equipment. And, like, that was the mountain man era. All that stuff. When they caught those beavers, there’s no need. They didn’t want the meat. They could eat the meat but there’s no value in the meat.
Speaker: 1
02:15:57
The hide, they don’t even want the leather from the hide. That was thrown away. They don’t want the mane guard hairs. Like, so if you look at a pelt, you got these silky long guard hairs and then there’s a underwool underneath it. They don’t want the silky long guard hair.
Speaker: 1
02:16:16
All they’re after is the under fur on the hide. To line hats. But there to to make felt. But there’s so much there’s so much conning and scamming of people taking shit that wasn’t beaver wool and trying to pass it off as beaver wool. You had to ship the whole hide to Europe so they could confirm that it was in fact a beaver hide at which they would hire people to pick the guard hair off, shave that underwool off, throw the guard hair away, throw the leather away, take that underwool and turn it into a felt to make a a hat.
Speaker: 1
02:16:53
Wow. Like an Ebenezer Scrooge top hat. That’s what that shit was about. Wow. So when this dude when LaSalle, you know, comes over and and builds the griffin, ai, that first ship is so crazy.
Speaker: 1
02:17:05
Like, he was building that ship to transport beaver hides because traditionally they’d always done it with canoes. And he’s like, I got a better idea. I’m gonna build ai ship, fill that sucker full of beaver hides and I’ll get rich.
Speaker: 2
02:17:15
Thousands of beaver hides.
Speaker: 1
02:17:16
But it but it but it yeah. His shah vanished. And that’s what they were still up to in the mountain man era. And that whole industry was born in this in this in this mountain man project we’re doing, like, that whole history was born. You ai say it was born with the Lewis and Clark expedition and identifying this this tremendous population of beavers in the Northern Rockies. And it kinda ended in 18/40.
Speaker: 1
02:17:40
If there’s a time The market collapsed.
Speaker: 2
02:17:43
If there’s a time where you could go back in history and just observe, like, they could put you in, like, a a fucking a bulletproof bubble and just, like, you don’t no one knows you’re there. Yep. You could just go watch. What where would you go? Would you go to that?
Speaker: 1
02:17:57
No. I just changed my time. For a long time, I knew what my time was, but I just changed my time recently.
Speaker: 2
02:18:03
What what is it?
Speaker: 1
02:18:04
I’ll be happy to I’ll be happy to explain.
Speaker: 0
02:18:07
What did it
Speaker: 2
02:18:07
used to be?
Speaker: 1
02:18:09
There used to be an idea that that’s existed for much of my life is about the peopling of the Meh. And ai maybe around 15000 years ago, there’s so much of the Earth’s water was tied up in glaciers that Asia and Alaska were connected by a chunk of ground the size of Texas. The Bering land bridge.
Speaker: 1
02:18:36
When people hear the Bering land bridge, you kinda picture this little ai it’s like Moses, like, crossing the part, you know, the arya the Meh Sea. But the bear you would you could’ve lived and died on the you know, generations were probably born and died on the Bering land bridge with no idea that it was a bridge.
Speaker: 1
02:18:50
Like I said, there’s a chunk of ground the size of Texas. That much water was tied up in glaciers. People crossed. They they almost certainly weren’t saying like, hey, Bob. Let’s go to Alaska. But they were doing their thing. They were hunting and moving and they cross.
Speaker: 1
02:19:06
And then because of all that ice, once they moved into what’s now Alaska, the theory held that they were trapped there by glacial ice. And eventually, there was this thing called the ice free corridor opened up around ai at would have spilled out around Edmonton, Alberta. And the idea was the first people to lay eyes on the continental US.
Speaker: 1
02:19:27
When that corridor opened up, when that little gap through the glaciers opened up, the first Americans, like, spilled out onto the American great plains killing mammoths with with spears. As all this new information has emerged, the dates don’t line up anymore. So we we did a hunting history episode about the this very question of how and when and who were the first people to enter the continent. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:19:59
And now, that was called the ice free corridor hypothesis, but it’s been made more and more untenable by finding these super old sites. For a while, the oldest site we knew about in the new world was in was a site called Monteverde down in Chile. So if people came in at the Bering land bridge, why is the oldest known site of human occupation all the way down in Chile? How old is it?
Speaker: 1
02:20:24
It’s ai around 13, 14.
Speaker: 2
02:20:26
What about those, New Mexico footprints that are 22,000 years old?
Speaker: 1
02:20:31
Again, yeah, it’s clouded in the picture. There’s a lot of the dating Yeah. The dating on that is clouded. But, anyways, it’s like antiquity in America is much older than originally thought. Right. So and then there’s now currently the oldest site is on the Columbia River drainage, near a place called Pittsburgh Landing.
Speaker: 1
02:20:48
There’s a really old site there and it winds up being that it doesn’t line up with the idea of people entering this ice free corridor because, like, when did the corridor when was it open? When was it possible to pass through? But now you have all these older dates and then people are even starting to question the validity of the idea of, like, that this corridor opened when they thought it did.
Speaker: 1
02:21:07
So now the fashionable ai, it’s it’s seems rock solid and we we film much of the episode up at our up up at our fish shack. There’s this theory now called the Kelp Highway that you had this pretty stable environment all along the Pacific coast and it was defined by kelp beds, enormous enormously rich in fish resources, enormously rich in shellfish.
Speaker: 1
02:21:35
Right? And that the first Americans were were a seafaring people and all that shit about what glaciers are melted and not melted and when this and that corridor and land bridge is open was a moot point because these were people that, just came down the coast and they knew how to survive in that marine that kelp marine environment and they went south and went south and went south and things remain remarkably similar and with, like, great speed with great speed
Speaker: 0
02:22:04
all the
Speaker: 1
02:22:04
way down the coast to also new people in Chile.
Speaker: 0
02:22:07
Wow.
Speaker: 1
02:22:08
And instead of this idea that people came into the Great Plains and then spread to the coast, it’s that people came down that route and, you know, that really old ai, the currently oldest, the currently oldest ai ironclad absolutely accepted academic consensus accepted site is that Snake River site or on on the Columbia drainage, that they came down the coast and then the the continent was populated by people who just followed these major rivers, these salmon runs and stuff. Coastal fishing people migrated up these rivers following fish and then turned into over time became these mammoth hunters and these in in interior grassland hunters, but their their genesis was in these seafaring people.
Speaker: 1
02:22:56
And as people came down, they ai filled in. So you go to, like, you know, the the the the the the the Klingate or the Haida, right, that live along the the Alaskan coast now. Like, that’s their ancestors. Right? They were the they were they were perhaps people living that way, and those places were the first people to enter the continent.
Speaker: 1
02:23:15
So So my time machine would be whatever the hell day that was.
Speaker: 2
02:23:18
That’s what it would be.
Speaker: 1
02:23:19
To see that, man.
Speaker: 2
02:23:21
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:23:21
Because picture like, you know, picture me the first person or the first group of people ai to see a continent. Yeah. I mean, you can’t even you know what I mean?
Speaker: 2
02:23:35
Yeah. How do we even know that that’s the case, though? Though? We don’t. There’s people that were before that.
Speaker: 1
02:23:40
That’s that there’s an argument there.
Speaker: 0
02:23:42
Because the
Speaker: 2
02:23:42
thing is ai
Speaker: 1
02:23:43
There’s an argument. There’s arguments
Speaker: 2
02:23:44
Humans came from Africa. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:23:46
The the well, yeah. That that’s That’s
Speaker: 2
02:23:48
where the original
Speaker: 1
02:23:49
The human diaspora is, like, anatomically, like, the the the sort of widely accepted scientific explanation is that anatomically and behaviorally modern humans, there was many waves of hominids coming out of Africa, but sometime around ai years ago, our current human ancestors came out. They came into a Europe that was populated by Neanderthals, perhaps other hominids. They kinda won. Right? And then and then spread around the world.
Speaker: 1
02:24:22
In the last continent outside of Antarctica, which was never, you know the last continent to be occupied by humans outside of Antarctica, which arguably was never occupied by humans, would have been South America. It was the last the last stop. Wow. And
Speaker: 2
02:24:35
it wild is there’s monkeys down there. Yeah. That’s what’s wild.
Speaker: 1
02:24:39
But, man, there’s always there’s this there’s this there’s this theory called the salutrient hypothesis, which is that that Northern Europeans came over much much ai 10, you know, 10 +1000 years ago. There’s always these different ideas that that someone, you know, someone from somewhere else blew in on a raft.
Speaker: 1
02:24:56
There’s always a saying, but but what I’m talking about is a sort of ai, again, the ai of like academically accepted ai, the sort of mainstream idea remains and is supported by genetic, linguistic, everything is that that humans came out of the Americans that that, you know, our Native Americans came out of Siberia through a Siberian pathway probably in waves.
Speaker: 1
02:25:24
You know, the people we now like, if you refer to now ai northern coastal peoples, Eskimo, Inuits Mhmm. They were a later wave. They they were different than what became the Athabascans to the south. It was like a later wave. So there could have been repeated waves of people coming, but I’ve always been interested in the first wave Yeah. Whoever they were, the first wave.
Speaker: 2
02:25:45
And when was that? Are you are you aware of the Sai Wall in Montana?
Speaker: 1
02:25:50
No. I’m aware of Montana.
Speaker: 2
02:25:52
You live there. The Sage Wall is a recent discovery. It it was on private property. And, these people, it was completely covered with woods and, you know, dead falls and everything. And they start clearing it out and they found this thing that looks remarkably like a constructed wall. That’s the Sai wall in Montana. It’s very Wow. It’s very strange.
Speaker: 2
02:26:17
It’s very strange. And it’s a vertical wall. Yeah. It goes down 13 feet under the ground, and, it’s long and straight. And it’s very confusing because it very much looks like placed stones that were cut and moved somehow, in this particular way.
Speaker: 2
02:26:34
And, there’s a lot of debate about whether
Speaker: 1
02:26:37
or not That’s a wild looking wall. Wild looking.
Speaker: 2
02:26:40
Well, sai if you could find the overhead of it, Jamie. Because when you look at the overhead, you’re like, Jesus Christ, this looks like people put this there.
Speaker: 1
02:26:47
Yeah. The debate is, is it natural or man made?
Speaker: 2
02:26:49
Yeah. Well, there is some people that think it’s man made, and there’s some people that think it’s vatsal, but it’s leaning much more towards, man made. But it’s confusing because Oh, you know, I am yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:27:02
I’m familiar with that area. Yeah. No. I got it.
Speaker: 2
02:27:04
It’s real weird.
Speaker: 1
02:27:05
Real weird looking.
Speaker: 2
02:27:07
There’s a lot of Lot of natural formations.
Speaker: 1
02:27:11
Because you get fissures and rocks that are filled from volcanic activity. Yep. Sure. It’s puzzling. It’s definitely maybe we’ll do an episode on that. There’s I think we will.
Speaker: 2
02:27:18
Well, this gentleman right there, see that guy down there with the beard, Jamie? That’s that’s the ai, I think it’s Wandering Wolf on, I think that’s his name on, YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. Wandering Wolf. He’s been studying this for a while.
Speaker: 2
02:27:32
Please ignore his nose ring.
Speaker: 1
02:27:34
Was that what that was? I couldn’t tell if he had a boog or if that was a nose ring.
Speaker: 2
02:27:36
Nose ring. But, like,
Speaker: 1
02:27:38
this is That was crazy.
Speaker: 2
02:27:39
It’s crazy because they’re flat and straight, and they look fairly uniform, and they look ai they’re cut into position. Yeah. And there’s also a bunch of these, you know, like, where they would grind things. There’s these posts that sit out that look like they’re carved outside that that are similar to a lot of stuff they find in South America ai Machu Picchu and stuff like that.
Speaker: 2
02:28:00
It’s very very weird stuff. Well Because if if that was made by people, who and when and how?
Speaker: 1
02:28:11
Yep. Yeah. Ai gut, I’m I’m I’m going vatsal, but I know. We’ll do a future episode on that
Speaker: 2
02:28:17
question. Ai I think natural too until you look at some of them. Like, some of those images, go back to some of those images, Jamie. Some of those images are ai, how the fuck? Like, they’re so flat and straight and look at that.
Speaker: 1
02:28:29
That that isn’t ram that angle, it’s insane.
Speaker: 0
02:28:32
From
Speaker: 1
02:28:32
that angle, you would no doubt look and be ai, that’s a man made wall.
Speaker: 2
02:28:35
It looks very stacked. They’re all cut square. What’s that, Jamie?
Speaker: 1
02:28:39
Ai looks fake, but
Speaker: 0
02:28:40
Is that
Speaker: 2
02:28:40
That looks ai fake.
Speaker: 1
02:28:40
Is that a fake image or is that the real image?
Speaker: 5
02:28:42
I can’t tell.
Speaker: 1
02:28:43
That ai You know what? Added to the picture. Yeah.
Speaker: 5
02:28:46
It doesn’t look like the same stuff from the video.
Speaker: 1
02:28:48
Okay.
Speaker: 2
02:28:49
Well, let’s see some of the images from the video. Well, that one up is the that one there is real. That’s legit.
Speaker: 1
02:28:56
That looks real. No. No. That’s that’s something different. That’s not the same site. Look at the it looks like a
Speaker: 5
02:29:03
sai yeah. They’re starting like ai That looks
Speaker: 0
02:29:05
like yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:29:05
That looks like yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:29:06
That’s not the same site and that’s not a vegetation that grows around there. That’s something different goofing around shit.
Speaker: 0
02:29:11
We
Speaker: 5
02:29:11
just did the video then.
Speaker: 2
02:29:12
Yeah. So here’s here’s a video of this guy walking
Speaker: 1
02:29:15
around. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:29:16
It’s really interesting stuff because there’s so much evidence of humans. Right? The the, you know, with the mortal and pestle ai holes and shit are all there. So there was some human occupation in this area. The question is, like, was this put there by humans or is this a natural feature that they found and just exploited?
Speaker: 1
02:29:34
Have you followed that news that has come out about that boy, that Ai 1 boy in Montana? No. Sounds like a Spielberg movie, Don’t it Anzick 1? It does. So there is a there’s a Clovis child that they found years ago in near Willsaw, Montana. It was from a Clovis hunter culture.
Speaker: 1
02:29:53
This child had been buried with projectile points and ochre and they’ve recently done work on, ai, like, stable isotope work, and it was ai he had a he he would had a diet of, woolly mammoth. Woah. Yeah. Which people don’t always thought. Yeah. Right? But that’s, like, this thing that gets always kicked around is, and and I have a friend, David Meltzer.
Speaker: 0
02:30:17
I don’t know
Speaker: 1
02:30:17
if you’re looking for guest suggestions, but half a finger Meltzer.
Speaker: 2
02:30:20
Okay.
Speaker: 1
02:30:20
Ai can love them. But, anyway, Meltzer, he’s an anthropologist, and he’s always been involved in this debate about where these these Clovis hunters and these ice age Meh, like, to what degree were they really these, like, northern wild men killing mammoths with spears and shit.
Speaker: 1
02:30:37
Right?
Speaker: 0
02:30:38
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:30:39
And people have tried to, like, over the years sort of emasculate these ice age hunters. Being ai, oh, they probably weren’t really killing all these mammoths, you know. They probably found them and scavenged them, you know, and and and and explaining away David hate me saying this, but, explaining away evidence that they were slaying mammoths and also explaining away the theory that, that they killed all the mammoths.
Speaker: 1
02:31:06
Right? Mhmm. And they were eating like ai they were eating a much more varied diet and using plant resources, and they were kind of ai a kinder, gentler ice age hunter. Mhmm. So it’s funny that out of this as this debate is always waged on, it’d be ai this accusation that in creating our idea of these ice age hunters, you create the kind you wish was there.
Speaker: 1
02:31:30
Right? So a dude like me is gonna be like, yeah, man. Mammoth hunters.
Speaker: 2
02:31:34
Right. Right.
Speaker: 1
02:31:35
You know? And then some other dude would be like, oh, no. Berry pickers. Yeah. Berry pickers. Right? Like, they’re they’re gentle. But they they’ve finally just did all this work and and lo and behold, he was young, but he would, the, he was eating mother you know, drinking mother’s milk.
Speaker: 1
02:31:53
And it was, they were mammoth eaters. Wow. You know, which backs up this idea that those big ass points, those big ass points they made were, like, being used. I participated in this study. Meh and some of the guys I work with participated in this study with Meltzer, this guy named Matt and Aaron who runs an experimental archaeology lab at Kent State University.
Speaker: 1
02:32:17
And they gave us all these stone tools and we had a dead bison laying there. And we just we were supposed to just spend the day butchering the bison with stone flakes and also with Clovis points. So we’re supposed to butcher half with Clovis points and butcher half with stone blades. They just want people who were, like, expert butchers to do it.
Speaker: 1
02:32:36
Like, you don’t really know how anybody did anything but just to sai. Because what what the the problem they have when they’re looking at the the the archaeological record is the only thing left is bone and stone. Everything else is gone. So when you find some mammoth, you know, you find a mammoth rib cage eroding out of a riverbank and lo and behold there’s a projectile point laying there, we had always said, oh, someone stabbed it with that point and killed it.
Speaker: 1
02:33:00
But do you really know that? Right? You’ll see a mark on a rib and you’re ai, oh, see they shot it in the rib and that’s why it’s got a scratch on its rib. Well, do you really know that? We just assume. Right.
Speaker: 1
02:33:14
So we did this project of to butcher this whole thing of fresh dead bison all the stone points and then they go then they went and cleaned all the bones. This guy John Hayes from Hayes Taxidermy Studio did this did this way to treat the bones and clean them where you’re not messing up the bones at all.
Speaker: 1
02:33:31
So now you have a set of bones that you know what happened to them. Right? And you have a set of stone tools that you know they were used for and the idea is you’re creating something to be to compare, you know. Mhmm. Like, there’s this famous fulsome site where all these these, out of New Mexico, where all these bison skulls, these ice age bison skulls, they look different.
Speaker: 1
02:33:53
Ai, that skull you got on your out in your studio The step or in the inner. Big horn you know, longer horned animal. They all got these cut marks on the bone right here ai the jaw mark inside the jaw. And then people have been, like, oh, it must have been from extracting the tongue. And I even thought that.
Speaker: 1
02:34:09
I went I went to SMU and looked at those skulls and held those bones in my ai. And I’m like, oh, look. It’s they’re probably getting the tongues out and made all those cut marks inside the jawbone. But what’s funny, in going and extracting the tongue with stone tools, I didn’t do shit would have left any ai of mark like that. You know?
Speaker: 1
02:34:27
And, again, you don’t know how they did what they did but it just it it creates an interesting data set so that when you do look at cut marks on bones, you can start put putting together what might have caused it. That what what he wants to work on next is they wanna do a ostrich.
Speaker: 2
02:34:44
What do you think those cut marks were if they weren’t extracting the tongues?
Speaker: 1
02:34:48
Dude, I got no idea. Wow. You you’re looking at them right there. I don’t know. When I extracted the tongue with a stone I extracted the tongue with stolen tools, and I didn’t have any need to go anywhere near that thing like that. I don’t know. But it just goes to show, like, you you look at stuff, you find a projectile point with a rib cage, and you’re, like, they stabbed it.
Speaker: 1
02:35:09
Right. But then, well, maybe they maybe that were you looking at Clovis points all wrong? Maybe Clovis points were knives. Maybe that big projectile point was a Clovis knife or maybe it was both things. And maybe when you find a mammoth skeleton that’s got 2 or 3 broken Clovis blades, it wasn’t that they had been jabbed into it necessarily.
Speaker: 1
02:35:31
Maybe they were the butchering tools.
Speaker: 2
02:35:33
But then what would be the killing tools?
Speaker: 1
02:35:36
It’s a great question. Yeah. Ai personally, like meh not being an academic who’s invested my entire career into this question, I do know this. Like, I think that when people talk about, oh, they were finding them. Like, I speak a lot of time outside. You just don’t find all this fresh dead shit laying around everywhere. Right? Right. You can you can spend many, many, many, many, many days out wandering around the woods.
Speaker: 1
02:36:00
You don’t find, like, fresh dead Right. Edible materials.
Speaker: 2
02:36:04
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:36:04
You find rotten shit, dried up shah. You find skeletons. But I don’t I don’t I have a hard time swallowing the idea that that all these mammoth kill sites were just where they happen to stumble across a fresh dead mammoth
Speaker: 0
02:36:16
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:36:16
That seems ridiculous.
Speaker: 1
02:36:17
And cut it up with a projectile point Yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:36:19
Or cut
Speaker: 1
02:36:19
it up with a blade. Like, they were killing mammoths.
Speaker: 2
02:36:21
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:36:21
That’s my my take on it. They were killing mammoths. Sense.
Speaker: 2
02:36:25
And then probably the mammoths weren’t aware that they were even gonna hunt them.
Speaker: 1
02:36:28
That’s probably
Speaker: 2
02:36:29
weren’t being hunted by anything.
Speaker: 1
02:36:30
That’s this idea when we’re talking about that ice free corridor deal and you look at how fast humans filled up the the North and South Meh, ai, a a a sort of motivational driver for that really quick spread would be that let’s say you were the you’re you’re you pop out in the great plains and the animals have never seen a person. Right? A man has never seen a person. You just walk up and kill it. Right.
Speaker: 1
02:36:55
And you do that for a couple months in some valley and then everything gets ai, oh shah. It’s one of them things and runs away. Well, jump to the next valley. Yeah. And find find more of the ones that don’t you know, find more of the ones that have never seen you. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:37:11
You know? Yeah. Ai, I’ve I’ve had occasion before to sai, like, a a elk that would had no way to encounter a dog encounter a dog, and their attitude is kinda like, the hell is that? Ai?
Speaker: 0
02:37:24
You know
Speaker: 1
02:37:25
what I mean? They’re, like, curious about it. They’re kinda looking at it. So you can imagine, like, the these these early peoples could probably just walk up on a lot of shit and just kill it. Probably. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:37:33
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:37:33
It’s like, what what’s this this thing?
Speaker: 2
02:37:35
Ai thing. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:37:35
What’s this thing gonna do?
Speaker: 2
02:37:36
Fuck out of here.
Speaker: 0
02:37:37
And all
Speaker: 1
02:37:37
of a sudden, like, sai. Some bitch stabbed me. So that was an idea that pushed, like, how fast people spread around. And then they they weren’t fighting each other because they were all at all this. There’s no competition for resource. They’re not fighting each other and they’re enjoying, like, very high reproductive rates because they’re drowning in food and
Speaker: 2
02:37:57
there’s no conflict. I wonder what the wildlife populations were like back then too before humans. Like, when humans did encounter when they first encountered North American wildlife, I wonder what the populations
Speaker: 1
02:38:10
were. Staggering.
Speaker: 2
02:38:12
Must have been crazy.
Speaker: 1
02:38:12
Just staggering. Staggering. Wow. We’ll never know.
Speaker: 2
02:38:17
We’ll never know.
Speaker: 1
02:38:18
But if
Speaker: 2
02:38:18
you had a time machine, that’s your spot.
Speaker: 1
02:38:20
Well, they’re getting closer to knowing now because now they can do crazy shah. Like, they can go into pond sediments. Do you know what I mean? Like stuff shedding, you know, you’re shedding you’re shedding cells all the time. Mhmm. Right? At some point, you’ll go down 10 feet into some pond and pull a little bit sediment out and lay that sediment out and do some analysis and be like, oh, there’s skin cells from 6 mammoths, a short face bear.
Speaker: 1
02:38:46
Right? Right. Whatever. It’s just it’s getting crazy. You know? It’s funny, like, talking about Indiana Jones, like that tyler. Like, the the archaeology is becoming increasingly anthropology.
Speaker: 1
02:38:59
Archaeology, is becoming ai the realm of the sai. Like, the the the the lab scientist. You know what I mean? Not not the field work. Ai, it’s so much more it’s such a Richard field of inquiry now to analyze stuff we already have than it is to go find new stuff. You follow me?
Speaker: 2
02:39:16
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:39:17
And when you go on an archeological dig, you know, they’re always they just dig they just dig a fraction. There’s a knowledge now. There’s a knowledge now that that tomorrow we’re gonna know a bunch of shit we don’t know. So if we got a 100 squares, we’ll just dig 1 now. And the impulse used to be just to come in and, like, destroy the whole sai. Right?
Speaker: 1
02:39:38
And wash everything away with hoses and just look for big bones and big stone points. And you’d come away with thinking that they use big stone points to kill big bones because you just washed into the ditch all of that micro evidence.
Speaker: 0
02:39:50
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:39:51
All of those small bones, all the plant pollen. You just washed everything away because you kinda knew what you were looking for.
Speaker: 2
02:39:57
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:39:58
So we probably make the same mistake now. So when you go to a a dig, they just go ai, well, just check this little square and then leave, you know, this is protocol now. Knowing that in 10 years, 100 years, whatever, someone’s gonna have a way better way. They’ll stick some little stick down there and we’ll tell them everything they need to know, you know?
Speaker: 2
02:40:15
Did I tell you about my friend, John Reeves? Did I ever tell you about the boneyard in Alaska?
Speaker: 1
02:40:19
Oh, yeah. He no. You had him on the show. Oh, yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:40:21
He he comes on the show every year. He was supposed to be the last guest this year, but he got pneumonia.
Speaker: 1
02:40:25
So he’s
Speaker: 2
02:40:26
he’s coming on in February.
Speaker: 1
02:40:27
Oh, that shit is fascinating, man.
Speaker: 2
02:40:28
That place is crazy. You know, it’s only 6 acres.
Speaker: 1
02:40:32
Is that right?
Speaker: 2
02:40:33
Yeah. Sai acres. Thousands and thousands of bones. Yeah. And what he thinks is it’s ai some sort of a natural disaster took place and probably asteroid impact. There’s there’s a thick layer of arya. Yeah. Thick layer of carbon and, in the permafrost is all these bodies, and they think that it’s probably just washed all these bodies into a ditch. Oh.
Speaker: 2
02:40:55
That’s why there’s so many of them there.
Speaker: 0
02:40:57
It’s at
Speaker: 1
02:40:57
the perfect speak.
Speaker: 2
02:40:58
Yeah. Perfect spot. They found animals that weren’t even supposed to be in Alaska there.
Speaker: 1
02:41:01
Yeah. It’s like you had it’s like you had La Brea Tar Pits to yourself.
Speaker: 2
02:41:05
Yes. Exactly. But it’s all his property, so no one can go there. So, you know, you know, they’ve they’ve found them in the East River now because it turns out that which museum was it, Jamie?
Speaker: 1
02:41:16
Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. They dumped
Speaker: 2
02:41:18
them they dumped some of the bones in the East River. So these people have actually gone down there and found them
Speaker: 0
02:41:23
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:41:23
In the East River now. They found a bunch ai bones and all kinds of shit in the East River, which is really crazy.
Speaker: 1
02:41:29
No. It is.
Speaker: 2
02:41:30
Because exactly where they said that they dumped these things off, they found them now. It’s really wild. And so
Speaker: 1
02:41:36
That that yeah. That that’s that’s a yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:41:38
You should go to this.
Speaker: 1
02:41:39
Fastening. This guy
Speaker: 0
02:41:39
is are. I would
Speaker: 1
02:41:40
like to do that.
Speaker: 2
02:41:40
That would be a great episode for your show because this this whole thing is crazy. Yeah. You know, and they may or may not have found human remains there. Oh. They can’t talk about it.
Speaker: 1
02:41:50
I imagine not. That shit gets pretty complicated in a hurry, man. Archaeological. I know. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
02:41:54
It gets a little yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:41:56
We, we did one on the we did one on the the lost Roanoke saloni. And, there’s archaeologists working ai what happened at the lost Roanoke saloni. And the minute you, bring up, like, human remain conversations, people it’s just ai
Speaker: 2
02:42:09
Shut the fuck up.
Speaker: 1
02:42:10
Yeah. Yeah. Because it it it’s getting real weird. Enormously complicated.
Speaker: 2
02:42:13
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:42:13
I recently met a guy that does, he’s a he’s Puebloan, so he’s from one of the Pueblos in New Mexico. And his whole focus is on he does repatriation for his Pueblo, like, you know, for people not familiar with Pueblo, it’d be like, ai, you know, it’s akin to a tribe. Right? He he works on repatriation for his tribe. Mostly focuses on remains.
Speaker: 2
02:42:35
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:42:35
Getting back getting back the remains of his ancestors
Speaker: 0
02:42:41
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:42:41
From all these museums and stuff. Wow. You know, they want them back. Yeah. And I want and I I sai to him in this conversation, I sai, hey, why can’t there be, like, a deal to be struck where you just say to the museum ai, okay, you keep one gram of that bone for your work.
Speaker: 1
02:42:59
Keep a gram of the bone and give the rest back to us. He said that would never be acceptable to us. Ai like the same way if someone went and dug your,
Speaker: 2
02:43:08
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:43:08
You know? Yeah. Someone dug your grandpa’s bones out of a graveyard. And lady, like, hey
Speaker: 2
02:43:14
Let me borrow his foot.
Speaker: 1
02:43:15
Keeping my grandpa back. I’m like, no. We’re keeping it.
Speaker: 5
02:43:17
Ai. Really?
Speaker: 2
02:43:18
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:43:18
We’re gonna do studies on them.
Speaker: 2
02:43:21
You know? God. It’s so complicated.
Speaker: 1
02:43:22
So that yeah. So yeah. I think that it would be, finding that. And then what shah complicates a lot of that human remains stuff too, especially with stuff that he’s talking about for the the stuff he has is as old as it did, As you there’s a little bit of a a little bit of question ai the groups that are there now, peoples that are there now, were they the peoples that were there before?
Speaker: 1
02:43:44
Right. You know, because people move all the time. Right? You just look at like like how the Comanche moved. Look how the the Sioux were in the upper Midwest and and areas in Minnesota and wind up, you know, coming westward and all this movement.
Speaker: 1
02:43:56
So when you have bones, there’s always a question of, well, who you know, current typically, it goes like this. It was like who was currently on the land? But when you’re talking about bones that are 10, 11, 12000 years old, there’s ai a little bit of a in ai mind, there’s a little bit of a question of, like, well, who do you, how do you know that that that that that person’s direct descendants aren’t in New Mexico?
Speaker: 1
02:44:20
Right. You know? Think about how much time passed. Like, are you giving them like, is it the wrong are you giving them to the wrong people?
Speaker: 2
02:44:27
You know? Ai. That’s a very good point. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:44:29
Because people moved all over the damn place.
Speaker: 2
02:44:31
God. It’s fast. But with
Speaker: 1
02:44:32
the Pueblos with the Pueblos, it is not that. Like, with the Pueblos, it is ai people that have had occupation on these places for 100 of years, and people just came in and hauled their ancestors out Wow. Speak them in museums. I was at a museum with my kids over Christmas break. I was at a museum in Chicago.
Speaker: 1
02:44:48
And we go into this exhibit, all the walls are all the displays are papered. So you can’t see. And there was a sign that just said ai we’re in a there’s a re we’re in a repatriation issue. So they blocked it all. Wow. You know? That ai.
Speaker: 1
02:45:06
I don’t even know what was behind the paper. Whatever the display was, they’re in a they’re in a custody battle over their display and block it for view. And years ago, I went to Saloni, Salta to look at those children with the corn. You know, those you ever hear about those children, those Incan children Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:45:20
They left on that mountain top and they ai freeze bryden.
Speaker: 2
02:45:23
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:45:23
They have 3 of these children they found, but whatever the deal they made with the ink and the contemporary ink and peoples, the deal they made is they only display 1 at a time. And, when I went, it was the it was the child that had been struck by lightning after the fact. And it was, you know, you just walk up and it’s in a it’s in a case, but you’re looking at someone’s baby. You know? Wow.
Speaker: 1
02:45:44
Looking at someone’s young child. Look ai the the the kids are ai stand up and walk away.
Speaker: 2
02:45:48
Really?
Speaker: 1
02:45:49
Perfectly preserved. Even ai the feathers are perfect. Wow. Yeah. Not quite stand up and walk away.
Speaker: 2
02:45:55
Yeah. But ai,
Speaker: 1
02:45:56
I mean, like, perfect. You know? Perfect. But, yeah, there’s someone probably ai I follow that situation, but someone is probably saying, I don’t want ai, you know, I don’t want my ancestor in your decorating your
Speaker: 2
02:46:12
Yeah. Understandably so.
Speaker: 1
02:46:13
Museum? Yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:46:14
I mean
Speaker: 2
02:46:16
wow. Listen, man. Oh, here’s something that he found. Look at this. This, this had been sawed.
Speaker: 1
02:46:22
Oh, no shit.
Speaker: 2
02:46:23
Yeah. So the piece that’s missing that’s He
Speaker: 1
02:46:25
found that like that? Mhmm.
Speaker: 2
02:46:27
The piece that’s missing that’s cut right there, that was a piece that they’d made, to, to date it.
Speaker: 1
02:46:32
Oh, I got it.
Speaker: 2
02:46:33
But the top part had been sawed. Yeah. I forget how old that was.
Speaker: 1
02:46:38
No shit.
Speaker: 2
02:46:39
Yeah. Yeah. But that that that’s from John. That’s from The Boneyard. I’m gonna introduce you to him. He’s coming back in February. You really need to get to know him.
Speaker: 1
02:46:49
He’s a fascinating cat.
Speaker: 2
02:46:51
He’s a fun dude too. Alright, Steve. So your show Hunting History, History Channel, is it available now? Sai down now? January 28th. January 28th. Okay.
Speaker: 1
02:46:59
10 PM Eastern.
Speaker: 2
02:47:00
There it is. Hunting History, Steve Ranella.
Speaker: 1
02:47:03
There it is. Alright. Thanks for letting me plug it, man.
Speaker: 2
02:47:05
Oh, always a good time. No.
Speaker: 1
02:47:06
I appreciate it. Let me come out and unplug it.
Speaker: 2
02:47:08
There’s the mule deer that we shot together.
Speaker: 0
02:47:10
Oh, no.
Speaker: 1
02:47:10
I like that, man.
Speaker: 2
02:47:11
For 12 years ago. Yeah. Time flies.
Speaker: 1
02:47:13
Yep. It’s your biggest animal to date.
Speaker: 2
02:47:15
Not crazy. It’s kinda crazy. That was 12 years ago.
Speaker: 1
02:47:19
Was it really?
Speaker: 2
02:47:20
It doesn’t seem like it. Yeah. Yeah. But it was. 2012.
Speaker: 1
02:47:22
Yeah. Well, again, appreciate your generosity and especially appreciate tyler me come on and, and and plug my project. Anytime.
Speaker: 2
02:47:29
Anytime. It’s always good to talk you.
Speaker: 1
02:47:30
And if you hung out with the dude in Canada in the seventies named John the Baptist, let me know.
Speaker: 2
02:47:34
Yeah. Let him know.
Speaker: 1
02:47:34
I gotta put it to rest. I can’t stop thinking about that guy.
Speaker: 2
02:47:37
Alright. Bye, everybody ai.
