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#2255 – Mark Zuckerberg Podcast Episode Description
Mark Zuckerberg is the chief executive of Meta Platforms Inc., the company behind Facebook, Instagram, Threads, WhatsApp, Meta Quest, Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses, Orion augmented reality glasses, and other digital platforms, devices, and services.
about.facebook.com
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#2255 – Mark Zuckerberg Podcast Episode Top Keywords
#2255 – Mark Zuckerberg Podcast Episode Summary
In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience, the discussion centers around the evolution of social media, free speech, and the role of media in shaping public discourse. The conversation reflects on the journey of social media platforms, particularly focusing on the challenges and responsibilities they face in balancing free expression with the need to manage misinformation and propaganda. The speakers discuss the impact of major events like the Trump election and the COVID-19 pandemic on media trust and policy decisions, highlighting a shift towards more community-driven content moderation.
A recurring theme is the importance of authentic voices and creators in the digital age, as traditional media’s credibility wanes. The speakers emphasize the role of podcasts and social media in providing alternative platforms for expression, which are crucial for maintaining free speech in a landscape where mainstream media often presents a biased narrative.
The episode also touches on the challenges of traditional media formats, such as television, which often limit in-depth discussions due to time constraints and commercial interruptions. In contrast, the podcast format allows for more nuanced and extended conversations, which are essential for exploring complex issues.
Actionable insights include the need for social media platforms to implement community-driven moderation tools, like community notes, to enhance transparency and trust. The speakers advocate for a media environment where individuals can share personal experiences and factual information without fear of censorship or job loss.
Overall, the episode underscores the significance of maintaining open communication channels and the evolving role of digital platforms in fostering a more informed and connected society.
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#2255 – Mark Zuckerberg Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
Speaker: 0
00:01
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan experience. Ai meh day. Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
Speaker: 1
00:12
Alright, bro. What’s happening? Good to see you.
Speaker: 0
00:14
You too.
Speaker: 1
00:15
What’s going on?
Speaker: 0
00:16
You know, chill week. Yeah. Sorta.
Speaker: 1
00:21
This, recent announcement that you did about, content moderation, how has that been received?
Speaker: 0
00:29
Probably depends on who you ask. Right. But but, you know but, look. I mean, I’ve been working on this for a long time. So, I mean, you gotta do what you think is is right. You know, we we’ve been on a long a long journey here. Right? I mean, it’s, and I think at some level, you you start you only start one of these companies if you believe in giving people a voice. Right?
Speaker: 0
00:49
I meh, and the whole point of social media is basically, you know, giving people the ability to share, what they want. Right. And, and, you know, it goes back to, you know, our original mission is just give people the power to share and make the world more open and connected.
Speaker: 1
01:10
What do you think started the pathway towards increasing censorship? Because, clearly, we were going in that direction for the last few years. It seemed ai, we really found out about it when Elon bought Twitter and we got the Twitter files. And when you came on here and when you were explaining the relationship with FBI, where they were trying to get you to take down certain things that were true and real and certain things they tried to get you to limit the exposure to them.
Speaker: 1
01:40
So it’s these kind of conversations. Like, when did all that start?
Speaker: 0
01:45
Yeah. Well well, look. I I think going back to the beginning or like I was saying, I think you you start one of these if you care about about giving people a voice. You know, I did I wasn’t too deep on our content policies for, like, the first 10 years of the company. It was just ai well known across the company that, we were trying to give people the ability to share as much as possible.
Speaker: 0
02:05
And issues would come up, practical issues. Right? So if someone’s getting bullied, for example, we deal with that, or we put in place systems to to fight bullying. Right. You know, if someone is saying, hey. You know, someone’s pirating copyrighted content on on the service. Like, okay.
Speaker: 0
02:20
We’ll build controls to make it so we’ll find IP protected content. But it was really in the last 10 years that people started pushing for, like, ideological based censorship. And I think it was 2 main events that really triggered this. In 2016, there was the election of president Trump, also coincided with, basically, Brexit in the EU and and sort of the fragmentation of the EU.
Speaker: 0
02:50
And then, you know, in 2020, there was COVID. And I I think that those were basically these two events where, for the first time, we just placed we just faced this massive, massive institutional pressure to, to basically start censoring content on ideological grounds.
Speaker: 1
03:12
And when I’m sorry to interrupt you. But when it first came up in 2016, did it come under the guise of the Russian collusion hoax?
Speaker: 0
03:20
Yeah. And this is the thing. I at the time, I was really sort of ill prepared to to kind of parse what was going on. Right? It’s, you know, I I think part of my reflection looking back on this is I I kind of think in 2016 in the aftermath, I gave too much deference to, a lot of folks in the media who are basically saying, okay.
Speaker: 0
03:46
There’s no way that this guy could have gotten elected except for misinformation. People can’t actually believe this stuff. Right? It has to be that there’s this kind of, like, massive misinformation out there. Some of it started with the the Russia collusion stuff, but it ai morphed into different things over time.
Speaker: 1
04:03
Well, it was it was he was so ideologically polarizing. Right? Like, people didn’t wanna believe that anybody looked at him and sai, this should be our president.
Speaker: 0
04:12
Yeah. So so I took this and and just kind of assumed that everyone was acting in good faith. And I said, okay. Well, there’s, like there are concerns about misinformation. We should just like when people raised other concerns in the past and we ai to deal with them Okay. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
04:28
People peep no. You know, if you ask people, no one says that they want misinformation. So maybe there’s something that we should do to to basically try to address this. But I was really worried from the beginning about basically becoming this sort of decider of what is true in the world. Right?
Speaker: 0
04:47
That’s, like, kind of a crazy position to be in for billions of people using your service. And, so we tried to put in place a sir a, you know, a system that would deal with it. You know, and early on, tried to basically make it so that, it was really limited. We’re like, alright.
Speaker: 0
05:04
We’re just gonna have this system where there’s these third party fact checkers, and they can check the worst of the worst stuff. Right? So, things that are very clear hoaxes that there’s, like it’s not like like we’re not parsing speech about whether something is slightly true or slightly false, like earth is flat, you know, things like that.
Speaker: 0
05:22
Right? Sai so that was sort of the original intent. We put in place the system, and it just sort of veered from there. I I think to some degree, it’s because some of the people whose job is to do fact checking, a lot of their industry is focused on political fact checking. So they’re just kind of veered in that direction.
Speaker: 0
05:38
And we kept on trying to to basically get it to to be what we had originally intended, which is just you know, it’s not the point isn’t to, like, judge people’s opinions. It’s to to provide in this layer to to to kind of help fact check some of the stuff that seems the most extreme.
Speaker: 0
05:54
But, it just you know, it was it was just never accepted by by people broadly. I think people just felt like the fact checkers were too biased. Mhmm. Not necessarily even so much in what they ruled. Although, sometimes, I think people would disagree with that.
Speaker: 0
06:10
A lot of the time, it was just what types of things they chose to even go and fact check-in the first in the first place. So I I kind of think, like, after having gone through that whole exercise, it I don’t know. It’s something out of, like, you know, 1984, one of these books where it’s just like it really is a slippery slope. And Yeah.
Speaker: 0
06:30
It just got to a point where it’s just, okay. This is destroying so much trust, especially in the United States to have this program. And Ai guess it was probably about a few years that I really started coming to the conclusion that we were gonna need to to change something about that.
Speaker: 0
06:47
COVID was the other big one where that was that was also very tricky because, you know, in the beginning, it was, you know, it it’s like a legitimate public health crisis, you know, in the in the beginning. And it’s, you know, even people who are, like, the most ardent first amendment, you know, defenders the the the Supreme Court has this clear precedent. It’s like, alright.
Speaker: 0
07:15
You you can’t yell fire in a crowded theater. There are times when if there’s an emergency, your your ability to speak can temporarily be curtailed in order to get an emergency under control. So I was sympathetic to that at the beginning of COVID. It seemed like, okay. You have this virus. Speak like it’s killing a lot of people.
Speaker: 0
07:33
I don’t know like, we didn’t know at the time how dangerous it was gonna be. So at the beginning, it kind of seemed like, okay. We should give a little bit of deference to the government and the health authorities on how we should play this. But when it went from, you know, 2 weeks to flatten the curve to, you know and, like, in the beginning, it was like, okay. There aren’t enough masks.
Speaker: 0
07:55
Masks aren’t that important. To then, it’s like, oh, no. You have to wear a mask. And, you know, the like, everything was shifting around. I it’s become very difficult to kinda follow.
Speaker: 0
08:04
And and this really hit the most extreme, I’d say, during it was during the Biden administration when they were trying to roll out, the vaccine program. And now I’m generally, like, pretty pro rolling out vaccines. I think on balance, the vaccines are more positive than negative.
Speaker: 0
08:24
But I think that while they’re trying to push that program, they also tried to censor anyone who is basically arguing against it. And they pushed us super hard, to take down the things that were honestly were true. Right? I mean, they they basically pushed us and and said, you know, anything that, says that vaccines might have side effects, you basically need to take down.
Speaker: 0
08:51
And I was just like, we’re not gonna do that. Ai, we’re we’re clearly not gonna do that. I mean, that that that that is kind of inarguably true.
Speaker: 1
09:01
They? Who’s telling you to take down things that Yeah. It was it was talk about vaccine side effects.
Speaker: 0
09:06
It was people in the, in the Biden administration. I think it was, you know, I wasn’t involved in those conversations directly, but I think it was
Speaker: 1
09:12
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09:30
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09:51
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Speaker: 1
10:14
That’s a $76 value gift for free if you go to drink agone.com/jorogan. Seriously, get on this. That’s gotta be strange too. Right? Because you’re running the company, but there’s clearly, you’re moderating at scale that’s beyond the imagination. The number of human beings you’re moderating is fucking insane.
Speaker: 1
10:39
Like, what is well, what’s a Facebook what how many people use it on a daily basis? Forget about how many overall. Like, how many people use it regularly?
Speaker: 0
10:47
It’s, 3,200,000,000 people use one of our services every day. That’s it. Yeah. It’s no. It’s wild.
Speaker: 1
10:53
More than a third of the planet. Meh. It’s so crazy.
Speaker: 0
10:56
And it’s and it’s, It’s
Speaker: 1
10:57
almost half of Earth.
Speaker: 0
10:58
Well, on a monthly basis, it is. Probably half.
Speaker: 1
11:00
Ugh. But, just I wanna I wanna say that though for there’s a lot of, like, hypercritical people that are conspiracy theorists and think that everybody is a part of some cabal to control them. I want you to understand that whether it’s YouTube or all these whatever place that you think is doing something that’s awful, it’s good that you speak because this is how things get changed and this is how people find out that people are upset about content moderation and and censorship.
Speaker: 1
11:25
But moderating at scale is insane. Yeah. It’s insane. Yeah. That what we were talking the other day about the number of videos that go up every hour on YouTube, and it’s bananas. It’s bananas.
Speaker: 1
11:38
Vatsal, like, to try to get a human being that is reasonable, logic logical, and objective that’s gonna analyze every video, it’s virtually impossible. It’s not possible. So you gotta use a bunch of tools. You gotta get a bunch of things wrong. Yeah. And you have also people reporting things.
Speaker: 1
11:55
And how how much is that gonna affect things? There’s you could have mass reporting because you have bad actors. You have some corporation that decides we’re gonna attack this video because it’s bad for us to get it taken down. Mhmm. There’s so much going on.
Speaker: 1
12:07
Just I wanna put that in people’s heads before we go on. Like, understand the kind of numbers that we’re talking about here. Now understand you have the the pandemic, and then you have the administration that’s doing something where I think they crossed the line, where it gets really weird, where they’re saying what you were saying.
Speaker: 1
12:25
They were trying you to get you to take down vaccine side effects, which is just crazy.
Speaker: 0
12:33
Yeah. Sai, I mean, it like you’re saying, I mean, it this is it’s so complicated, this system, that I could spend every minute of all of my time doing this and not actually focused on building any of the things that we’re trying to do. AI, glasses, like, the future of social media, all that stuff. So, so ai I I meh involved in this stuff, but in general, we we have a policy team.
Speaker: 0
12:55
There are people who I trust. They’re the people are ai of working on this on a day to day basis. And the interactions that, that I was just referring to I mean, a lot of this is meh. I mean, because, you know, Jim Jordan and the the house had this whole investigation and committee into into the the kind of government censorship around stuff like this.
Speaker: 0
13:14
And we produced all these documents, and it’s all in the public domain. I mean, basically, these people from the Biden administration would call up our team and, like, scream at them and curse. And it’s ai these documents are it’s all kind of out there.
Speaker: 1
13:27
Oh, did you record any of those phone calls?
Speaker: 0
13:29
I don’t no. I don’t think Ai don’t think we were but but I think I
Speaker: 1
13:32
wanna listen.
Speaker: 0
13:33
I mean, there are emails. The the the emails are published. It’s all it’s all kind of out there. And, and they’re like and, basically, it just got to this point where we were like, no. We’re we’re not gonna we’re not gonna take down things that are true. That’s ridiculous. They sana us to take down this meme of Leonardo DiCaprio looking at a TV talking about how 10 years from now or something, you know, you’re gonna see an ad that says, okay.
Speaker: 0
13:57
If you took a COVID vaccine, you’re, eligible. You know you know, like, for for this kind of payment, like, some this sort of, like, class action lawsuit type meme. And they’re like, no. You have to take that down. And we sai, no. We’re not we’re not gonna take take down humor and satire.
Speaker: 0
14:12
We’re not gonna take down things that are that are true. And then at some point, I guess, Ai don’t know, flipped a bit. I mean, Biden, when he was he gave some statement at some ai. I don’t know if it’s sai press conference or to some journalist where he basically was like, these guys are killing people. And and, and I don’t know.
Speaker: 0
14:33
Then, like, all these different agencies and branches of government basically just, like, started investigating coming after our company. It was it was brutal. It was brutal.
Speaker: 1
14:42
Wow. Yeah. It’s just a massive overstepping.
Speaker: 0
14:49
Yeah. And what ai am I thinking
Speaker: 1
14:50
of You weren’t killing people. This is this is the thing about all of this. It’s ai they suppressed so much information about things that people should be doing regardless of whether or not you believe in the vaccine. Regardless, put that aside. Metabolic health is of the utmost importance in your everyday life, whether there’s a pandemic or there’s not.
Speaker: 1
15:11
And there’s a lot of things that you can do that can help you recover from illness. It prevents illnesses. It makes your body more robust and healthy. It strengthens your immune system. And they were suppressing all that information. And that’s just crazy. You can’t say you’re one of the good ai.
Speaker: 1
15:27
If you’re suppressing information that would help people recover from all kinds of diseases, not just COVID, the flu, common cold, all sorts of different things, high doses of vitamin c, d 3 with k 2 and magnesium. They were suppressing this stuff because they didn’t want people to think that you could get away with not taking a vaccine, which is really crazy when you’re talking about something that 99.07% of people survive.
Speaker: 1
15:55
This is a crazy overstep, but scared the shit out of a lot of people to red pill as it were a lot of people. Because they ai like, oh, 1984 is like an instruction manual. Ai, it’s like Yeah. This is it shows you how things can go that way with wrong speak and with bizarre distortion of facts.
Speaker: 1
16:16
And when it comes down to it, in today’s day and age, the way people get information is through your platform, through x. This is how people are getting information. They’re getting information from YouTube. They’re getting information from a a bunch of different sources now, And you can’t censor that if it’s real legitimate information because it’s not ideologically convenient for you.
Speaker: 0
16:38
Yeah. Sai, I mean, that’s basically the journey that I’ve been on. Right? Started off very pro free free speech, free expression. You know, and then over the last 10 years, there have been these 2 big episodes. It was the Trump election and the aftermath, where I feel like in retrospect, I deferred too much to the kind of critique of the media on what we should do.
Speaker: 0
16:58
Mhmm. And since then, I think, generally, trust in media has fallen off a cliff. Right? So I I don’t think I’m alone in that journey. I think No.
Speaker: 0
17:05
You know, that’s basically the the the experience that that a lot of people have had is, okay, it’s the the stuff that’s being written about is not kind of all accurate. And and even if the facts are right, it’s kind of written from a slant a lot of the time. Of course. And then, and then there was the government version of it, which is during COVID, which is okay.
Speaker: 0
17:23
Like, it’s like our government is is telling us that we need to censor true things. It’s like, this is a disaster. And it’s, you know, it’s not just the US. Right? I think, you know, a lot of people in the US focus on this as an American phenomenon.
Speaker: 0
17:38
But I kind of think that the reaction to COVID probably caused a breakdown in trust in a lot of, governments around the world. Because, I mean, you know, 2024 was a big election year around the world. And, you know, there are all these countries, Ai, actually, you know, just like a a ton of countries that had that had elections.
Speaker: 0
17:58
And the incumbents basically lost every single one. So there is some sort of a global phenomenon where the the whether it was because of inflation, because of the the economic policies to deal with, with COVID, or or just how how the governments dealt with COVID, seems to have had this effect that’s global.
Speaker: 0
18:22
Not just the US, but, like, a very broad decrease in trust, at least in in that set of incumbents and maybe in in sort of these democratic institutions overall. So I I think that what you’re saying of, yeah, how do people get their information now? It’s by sharing it online on social media.
Speaker: 0
18:39
I think that that’s just increasingly true. And my view at this point is, like, alright. Like, we arya off focused on free expression. We kind of had this pressure tested over the last period. I I feel like I just have a much greater command now of what I think the policy should be, and, like, this is how it’s gonna be going forward.
Speaker: 0
18:57
And, and sai, I’m I mean, at this point, I think, yeah, I think a lot of people look at this as, like, a purely political thing. You know, it’s because they they kinda look at the timing, and they’re like, hey. Well, you’re you’re doing this right after the election. It’s like, okay.
Speaker: 0
19:10
I try not to, like, change our content rules, like, right in the middle of an election either. Right? It’s like there’s not, like, a great time to do this. It’s Right.
Speaker: 1
19:16
You know? And you wanna do it a year later.
Speaker: 0
19:18
Yeah. It’s like there’s no good time to do it. There’s you know? And and whatever time is is going on, there’s gonna be you know? So, the good thing about doing it after the election is you get to take this kind of cultural pulse as ai, okay. Where are people right now, and and how are people thinking about it? We try to have policies that reflect, you know, mainstream discourse. But yeah.
Speaker: 0
19:38
I mean, I I don’t know. This is something I’ve been thinking about for a while. I think that this is gonna be pretty durable because at this point, we’ve just been pressure tested on this stuff for, like, the last 8 to 10 years with, like, these huge institutions just pressuring us.
Speaker: 0
19:53
And, and I I I feel like this is ai of the right place to be going forward.
Speaker: 1
19:58
What was it like when they were attacking you? Like, what first of all, what was the premise? Like, what what would they what they’re saying was your offense? Was it that you were allowing information that was not true, that was getting out there? I know there was also they’re saying that you guys were allowing hate groups to speak. There’s a lot of this.
Speaker: 0
20:17
Yeah. Ai mean, the the the tough thing with politics is that there’s, like well, when you say who who someone’s coming after you. Are you referring to kind of the government and investigations and all that? I meh, so the the issue is that there’s the there’s what specific thing an agency might be looking into you for.
Speaker: 0
20:37
And then there’s, like, the underlying political motivation, which is, like, why do the people who are running this thing hate you? And I know those can often be 2 very different things. So and we had organizations that were looking into us that were, like, not really involved with social media.
Speaker: 0
20:54
Like, I think, like, the CFPB, ai, this financial I don’t even know what it stands for. It’s the it’s the financial organization, that Elizabeth Warren had set up.
Speaker: 1
21:05
Oh, great.
Speaker: 0
21:06
And and it’s basically it’s ai, we’re not a bank. The deep ai section. Yeah. No. So so, like, we’re we’re not a bank. Right? It’s like like, what what does Meta have to do with this? But they ai of found some theory that they wanted to investigate, and it’s like, okay. Clearly, they were trying really hard, right, to to, like, find find some theory, but it, like I don’t know.
Speaker: 0
21:25
It just it kind of like, throughout the the the the the party and the government, there’s just sort of I don’t know if it’s I don’t know how this stuff works. I mean, I’ve never been in government. I don’t know if it’s, like, a directive or it’s just, like, a quiet consensus that, like, we don’t like these guys.
Speaker: 0
21:39
They’re not doing what we want. We’re gonna punish them. But, but it’s, it’s, it’s tough to be at the other end of that. What was it like? Well, it’s not good. I think well, the the the thing that I think is actually the the toughest, though, is, it’s it’s global. Right?
Speaker: 0
21:57
So and and, really, when you think about it, the US government should be defending its companies. Right, not be the tip of the spear attacking its companies. So when we so we we talk about a lot, okay, what is the experience of, okay, if the US government comes after you. I I think the real issue is that when the US government does that to its tech industry, it’s basically just open season around the rest of the world. Ai?
Speaker: 0
22:23
I mean, the the EU I I pulled these numbers. The EU has fined the tech companies more than $30,000,000,000 over the last, I think it was, like, 10 or 20 years. Holy shit. So when you when you think about it, like, okay, there’s it’s, like, you know, $100,000,000 here, a couple $1,000,000,000 there.
Speaker: 0
22:41
But what what ai, I think, really adds up to is this is sort of ai a kind of EU wide policy for how they wanna deal with American tech. It’s almost like a tariff. And I think the US government basically gets to decide how are they gonna deal with that. Right? Because if the if the US government if if, if some other, you know, country was screwing with another industry that we cared about, the US government would probably find some way to put pressure on them.
Speaker: 0
23:05
But I think what happened here is actually the complete opposite. The US government led the the kind of attack against the companies, which then just made it so, like, the EU is basically and all these other places are just free to just go to town on all the American companies and do whatever you want.
Speaker: 0
23:20
But, I mean, look, obviously, like, I ai wanna come across as if, like, we don’t have things that we need to do better. Obviously, we we do. And when we mess something up, we deserve to be held accountable for that and and and just like everyone else. I do think that the American technology industry is a bright spot in the American economy.
Speaker: 0
23:39
I think it’s a strategic advantage for the United States that we have a lot of the strongest, companies in the world. And I I think it should be part of the US’ strategy going forward to defend that. And, and it’s one of the things that I’m optimistic about with president Trump is Ai think he just wants America to win.
Speaker: 0
23:56
And, and I think some of the stuff, like, the the other the other governments who are ai pushing on on this stuff, it’s, you know, it’s like, at least the US has the rule of law. Right? So the government can come after you for something, but you still get your day in court, and the courts are pretty fair.
Speaker: 0
24:12
And, you know, so we’ve basically done a pretty good job of defending ourselves. And when we’ve when we’ve chosen to do that, basically, we we have a pretty good rate of winning. It’s just not like that in every other country around the world. Like, if other governments decide that they’re gonna go after you, you don’t always get kind of a a clear shake at at kind of defending yourself on on on the rules.
Speaker: 0
24:37
So I think to some degree, if the US tech industry is going to continue being really strong, I I do think that the US government has a role in, in basically defending it abroad. And that’s one of the things that I’m optimistic about will will happen in this administration.
Speaker: 1
24:55
Well, I think this is administration uniquely has felt the impact of not being able to have free speak. Because this was the this is the administration where Trump was famously kicked off of Twitter. That was a huge issue, like, after January 6th. Like, they removed
Speaker: 0
25:14
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
25:14
The at the time, the sitting president. It was ai of crazy to remove that person from social media because you’ve decided that he incited a riot. So for him, without free speech, without people without podcasts, without social media, they probably wouldn’t have had a chance because the mainstream narrative other than Fox News was so clearly against him.
Speaker: 1
25:38
The majority of the television entities and print entities were against him, the majority of them. So if without social media, without podcast, the they don’t stand a chance. So they’re uniquely aware of the importance of giving people their voice, free speech. But you do have to be careful about misinformation, and you do have to be careful about just outright lies and propaganda complaints or propaganda campaigns rather.
Speaker: 1
26:08
And how do you differentiate?
Speaker: 0
26:10
Well, I I think that there are a couple of different things here. One is this is something where I think X and Twitter just did it better than us on on fact checking. We took the critique around fact checking. Sorry, around misinformation. We put in place this fact checking program, which basically empowered these third party fact checkers.
Speaker: 0
26:25
They can mark stuff false, and then we would ai it in the algorithm. I think what what Twitter and X have done with community notes, I think it’s just a better program. Rather than having a small number of fact checkers, you get the whole community to weigh in. When people usually disagree on something, tend to agree on how they’re voting on on a on a note, that’s a good sign to the community that this is there’s actually, like, a broad consensus on this, and then you show it.
Speaker: 0
26:50
And you’re showing more information, not less. Right? So you’re not using the fact check as a signal to show less. You’re using the community note to provide real context, and and show additional information. So I think that that’s better.
Speaker: 0
27:03
For when you’re talking about, like, nation states, or people interfering, a lot of that stuff is best rooted out at the level of kind of accounts doing phony things. So you get, like you know, whether it’s, like, China or Russia or Iran or, like, one of these countries, they’ll set up these networks of of fake accounts and vatsal.
Speaker: 0
27:29
And they coordinate, and they post on each other’s stuff to make it seem like it’s authentic and kinda convince people. It’s like, wow. A bunch of people must think this or something. And the way that you identify that is you build AI systems that can basically detect that those accounts are not behaving the way that a human would.
Speaker: 0
27:46
And when we find that that there’s, like, some bot that’s operating, an account How
Speaker: 1
27:52
how do you differentiate? How do you figure that out?
Speaker: 0
27:54
It just I mean, there are some things that a person just would never do. Right? So, Have you met Lex Fridman?
Speaker: 1
28:01
Yes. No. Right?
Speaker: 0
28:02
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
28:03
He might not be.
Speaker: 0
28:04
Well, but is he gonna take pass your turn or test? Yeah. No. He’s gonna take a is he gonna make a million actions ai a minute? It’s like, no.
Speaker: 1
28:10
Yeah. Probably not. Okay. So it’s that.
Speaker: 0
28:11
Well, I mean, it’s things that aren’t possible. Vatsal that. I think, like Okay. These guys are pretty sophisticated, and it’s an adversarial space. So, so we find some technique, and then they they basically kind of update their their techniques. But but we have a team of there it’s effectively, like, intelligence, counterintelligence folks, counterterrorism folks, AI folks who are building systems to identify, what are these accounts, that are just not behaving the way that people would, and how are they interacting.
Speaker: 0
28:42
And and then sometimes you you you trace it down, and, and sometimes you get some tips from different intelligence, agencies. And then you can kind of piece together over time. It’s like, oh, this network of people is actually some ai of fake cluster of accounts. And that’s against our policies, then we just take them all off.
Speaker: 0
28:59
But But how do
Speaker: 1
29:03
you how are you sure? Ai, is there a 100% certainty that there were that you are definitely getting a group of people that are bad actors? Or is it just people that have unpopular opinions?
Speaker: 0
29:15
No. I don’t think it’s that for this. I think
Speaker: 1
29:19
But what I’m saying is how do you determine? Yeah. Like, how do you at what percentage of accuracy are you determining it? Do you ever accidentally think that people are gonna get moderated arya actually just real people?
Speaker: 0
29:34
Yes. I think that’s I think for the specific problem around these, like, large coordinated groups doing kind of, like, election interference or something. It’s a large enough group. We have, like, a bunch of people analyzing it. It’s like they study it for a while. I think we’re probably pretty accurate on that.
Speaker: 0
29:49
But I actually think one of the bigger issues that we have in our moderation system is this precision issue that you’re talking about. And that is actually, of all the things that we announced this week in terms of how we’re gonna update the content policies, changing the content filters to have to require higher confidence and precision is actually going to be the thing that reduces the vast majority of the censorship mistakes that we make.
Speaker: 0
30:15
Right? The, you know, the the removing the fact checkers and replacing them with community notes, I think it’s a good step forward. Like, a very small percent of content is fact checked in in the first place. So it’s is that gonna make the hugest difference? I’m not sure.
Speaker: 0
30:28
I think it’ll be a positive step, though. And we we, like, opened up some content policies. So some stuff that was restricted before we opened up. Okay. That’s good.
Speaker: 0
30:38
It’ll mean that some set of things that might have been censored before or not. But ai far, the biggest set of issues we have and and you and I have talked about a bunch of issues like this over the years is, like, it’s just okay. You have some classifier that’s it’s trying to find, say, like, drug content. Right? People decide, okay. It’s like the opioid epidemic is a big deal.
Speaker: 0
30:58
We need to do a better job of cracking down on drugs and drug sales. Right? I don’t I don’t want people dealing drugs on our networks. So we build a bunch of systems that basically go out and try to automate finding people who are who are dealing with who are dealing drugs.
Speaker: 0
31:11
And then you basically have this question, which is how precise do you wanna set the classifier? So do you wanna make it so that the system needs to be 99% sure that someone is is dealing drugs before taking them down? Do you want it to be 90% confident, 80% confident? And then those correspond to amounts of, you know, I guess, the the statistics term would be recall.
Speaker: 0
31:37
What percent of the bad stuff are you finding? So if you require 99% confidence, then maybe you only actually end up taking down 20% of the bad content. Whereas if you reduce it and you say, okay. We’re only gonna require 90% confidence. Now maybe you can take down 60% of the bad content.
Speaker: 0
31:57
But let’s say you say, no. We really need to find everyone who is doing this bad thing. And over it doesn’t need to be as as severe as as dealing drugs. It could just be, I mean, it could be any any kind of content of, any kind of category of harmful content. You you start getting to some of these classifiers might have, you know, 80, 85 percent precision in order to get 90% of the bad stuff down.
Speaker: 0
32:20
But the problem is if you’re at, you know, 90% precision, that means one out of 10 things that the classifier takes down is not actually problematic. And if you filter if you if you kinda multiply that across the billions of people who use our services every day, that is millions and millions of posts that are basically being taken down that are innocent.
Speaker: 0
32:43
And and upon review, we’re gonna look vatsal be like, this is ridiculous that this thing got taken down, which, I mean, I think you’ve had that experience, and we’ve talked about this for for a bunch of stuff over time. And, but it really just comes down to this question of where do you wanna set the classifiers.
Speaker: 0
32:56
So one of the things that we’re gonna do is basically set them to be, to be require more confidence, which is this trade off. It’s going to mean that we will maybe take down a smaller amount of the harmful content, but it will also mean that we’ll dramatically reduce the amount of people who whose accounts were taken off, for a mistake, which is just a terrible experience.
Speaker: 0
33:19
Right? It’s sai, okay. You’re you’re going about your day. And then one day, you wake up, and you’re like, oh, my WhatsApp account just got, like, deactivated because it’s connected to a Facebook account. And the Facebook account, is, is is is or, like, I’m I’m using on the same phone as a Facebook account where, like, we made some enforcement mistake and thought you were doing something bad that you weren’t because our classifiers were set to too low of precision.
Speaker: 1
33:44
Has that happened before? Oh, yeah. Where their WhatsApp app got canceled as well? Yeah.
Speaker: 0
33:48
Because, I mean, there is there sai bunch
Speaker: 1
33:50
of Facebook app gets taken out. Like Sai say, if you have Facebook and you have, like, a sock puppet account, and the sock puppet account, you post offensive memes and you’re generally gross. Yeah. If that if you get caught for that, does your WhatsApp get killed?
Speaker: 0
34:04
Not for memes, but but go back to, like, a very severe thing. Like, let’s say someone is Terrorists.
Speaker: 1
34:11
Let’s say the most severe. Sure.
Speaker: 0
34:12
Yeah. Let’s say someone is is, like, terrorist content. They’re planning some attack.
Speaker: 1
34:15
Right.
Speaker: 0
34:16
So we take down their account. Right? But then let’s say that person can just go then sign up with another account. But I think, like, you know, ai now
Speaker: 1
34:24
does WhatsApp get connected to that, though?
Speaker: 0
34:26
Oh, well, if it’s I mean, we run these different services. And if they’re on the same phone, it’s basically you know, it’s one thing that you know, it’s basically regulators or governments will come to us and say, okay. It’s you’re you’re clearly not doing enough if you kick someone off for terrorism, and then they can just, like, sign up for another account on the phone. Right. Okay.
Speaker: 0
34:44
You’re also they also think, okay. Well, we’re not doing enough if we deactivate their Facebook account because they’re, like, planning a terrorist attack, but we let them use all our other services. Right.
Speaker: 1
34:53
Right? If you’re aware. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
34:54
Yeah. So so if we if our systems think that someone is a terrorist, then you probably need to deactivate their their access to all the different accounts.
Speaker: 1
35:02
Yeah. They can’t get on threads.
Speaker: 0
35:04
So it’s just not ai. Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. Sai That makes sense. Sai it’s you can understand how you get there, but then you just get to this question around the precision and the confidence level. And then you’re you’re just making all these mistakes at scale, and it’s just unacceptable.
Speaker: 0
35:22
But I I think it’s it’s a very hard calculation of, like, where do you wanna be? Because on the one hand, like, I get it why people kind of come to us, and they’re like, no. You need to do a better job ai more of the terrorism or the drugs and and all the stuff. But, you know, over time, the technology will get better, and it’ll get more precise.
Speaker: 0
35:40
But at any given point in time, that’s the choice that we have to make is do we wanna make more mistakes erring on the side of of just, like, blowing away innocent people’s accounts
Speaker: 1
35:51
Right.
Speaker: 0
35:51
Or do we wanna, get a higher a somewhat higher percent of of the bad stuff off. And I think that there’s some just some balance that you need to strike on this.
Speaker: 1
35:58
We were having a conversation yesterday, Mel Gibson and I, about how that can get weird. Was it Theo? Ai have been Theo. I think it was Theo. Where that can get weird because I think, like, if you’re a person and you work at some accounting firm, but you like posting about stuff, but you don’t want it to come back and reflect on your ai.
Speaker: 1
36:17
You wanna shit post. You wanna post jokes. You wanna be silly. You should be able to be anonymous. I I think there’s nothing wrong with that.
Speaker: 1
36:25
I don’t think just because you state your opinion, people should be able to search where you sleep. That that doesn’t make any sense to me. But if you’re gonna allow anonymous accounts, you’re definitely gonna open up the door to bad actors having enormous blocks of accounts where they can use either AI or just programs where they have, like, specific answers.
Speaker: 1
36:47
I’m sure you’ve seen that before. It’s it’s come up on Twitter multiple times where they found hundreds of sock puppet accounts tweeting the exact same thing. So you you’ve literally word for word even certain words in vatsal, like, either keep people are copying or pasting it or there’s an email campaign that’s getting legitimate people to do it or these are fake people.
Speaker: 1
37:06
You’re going to have if you’re gonna have anonymous accounts, which I think you should, because I think whistleblower’s I think the the benefits of anonymous reporting on important things that the general public needs to know about, especially whistleblower type stuff, you have to have some ability to be anonymous.
Speaker: 1
37:24
But you are all if you’re gonna do that, you’re also gonna have the possibility that these aren’t real people, that these are paid actors, these are paid people or not people at all or they’re running programs and they’re doing this to try to sway public opinion about very important issues.
Speaker: 1
37:39
Yeah.
Speaker: 0
37:43
A lot of what we’ve seen too I mean, there’s the anonymous accounts. Also, just over time, I think a lot of the kinda more interesting conversations have shifted from the public sphere to more private ones. So WhatsApp groups.
Speaker: 1
37:56
Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
37:56
Private groups on on Facebook. I’m sure you have this experience where, like, maybe 10 years ago, you would have posted your kind of quick takes on on whatever social media you’re using. Now, you know, the stuff that I post on on Facebook and Instagram, it’s like I put time into into making sure that that’s kind of good content that that I wanna be seen broadly.
Speaker: 0
38:15
Yeah. And then, like, most of the jokes that I make are, like, with my friends in WhatsApp. Exactly. Yeah. Sai, yeah, I I think that that’s sort of that’s ai of where the world is more broadly now.
Speaker: 1
38:25
Yeah. Yeah. No. I think so for jokes, for that kind of stuff, with for comedians, for sure. Because also, we’ll say things that we don’t really mean. We just say it because it’s a funny thing to say.
Speaker: 0
38:36
I think everyone does. For sure.
Speaker: 1
38:38
Yeah. Which is just a weird thing about taking things out of context, particularly on social media where people love to do that. But there is this problem of, like, let’s just say that you’re a country that’s involved in some sort of an international conflict and you have this ability to get out this fake narrative and just spread it widely about all sorts of things you’re accusing this other government of, all sorts of things that aren’t true.
Speaker: 0
39:07
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
39:07
And it just muddies the water of reality for a lot of people.
Speaker: 0
39:11
Yeah. And that’s why that side of things, the kind of governments running these broad manipulation campaigns, I mean, we’re not letting off the gas on that at all. I think ever like, most most categories of bad stuff that we’re policing, everyone agrees are is bad. Right? No one’s sitting there defending that terrorism is good, right, or child exploitation or drugs or IP violations or people inciting violence or it’s ai most of the stuff is bad.
Speaker: 0
39:38
People clearly believe that, that, you know, election interference and foreign government manipulation of content is bad. So we we have this is the type of stuff that the vast majority of our energy goes towards that, and we’re not changing our approach on any of that. The 2 categories that I think have been very politicized are misinformation, because who gets to judge or what’s false and what’s true.
Speaker: 0
40:03
You may just not like my opinion on something, and then, you know, people think it’s false. But it but it’s, but I think that that one’s really tricky. And the other one is, is basically what, you know, what people refer to as hate speech, which is, I think, also comes from a good place of, you know, wanting to crack down on that of, of wanting to promote more inclusion and and and belonging and people feeling, feeling good and, like, having a a pluralistic society that can, that can basically have all these different communities coexist.
Speaker: 0
40:37
Except everyone. Yeah. But I think the problem is is that, you know, you just all these things are on a speak, and when you go too far on them, you know, I think on on that side, we just basically got to this point where there were these things that you just, like, couldn’t say which were mainstream discourse.
Speaker: 0
40:53
Right? So, you know, it’s ai Speak Hegseth is going to, you know, probably be defending his nomination for secretary of defense on on the, senate floor. And I think one of the points that he’s made is that he thinks that women shouldn’t be able to be in certain combat roles.
Speaker: 0
41:08
And until we updated our policies, that wouldn’t have been a thing that you could have said on our platforms because it would call for the exclusion of a protected category of people. And so and it’s ai, okay. Like, on its on its face, yeah, calling for the exclusion of a protected category, that seems that, like, that’s okay.
Speaker: 0
41:25
There’s, like, legal protections. There’s all the stuff. But, okay, if it’s, like, okay to say on the floor of congress, you should probably be able to debate it on social media. Yeah. So, so I think some of the stuff, I think, well intentioned, went too far, needs to just get rationalized a bit. But but it’s those two categories.
Speaker: 0
41:43
Misinformation and hate speech, I think, are the ones that got politicized. All the other ones, which is the vast majority of of the stuff that we do, is, I think people generally agree that it’s that it’s good and we need to go after it. But then you just get into this problem of the mistakes ai you’re talking about. Okay.
Speaker: 0
42:00
Well, what confidence level do do people want us to have, in in our enforcement? And at what point would people rather us kind of say, okay. I’m not sure that that’s, that that one is causing an issue. So do you so on balance, maybe we should just, you know, leave that person’s account up because the pain of just nuking someone’s account when you’re not sure or you make a mistake is, like, that’s pretty real too.
Speaker: 1
42:22
Right. Yeah. Very, very complicated. Yeah. It’s it’s all very nuanced. And, you know, you made a point earlier about the the government supporting its companies, that it would be a good thing for the government to support its companies. It makes sense. It’s an American company. I think the issue that we’re dealing with is companies, as we’re describing them, have never existed before. Right?
Speaker: 1
42:48
There’s never been a thing like Facebook before. There’s never been a thing like Twitter before or x. It’s never been a thing like Instagram. These are new things in terms of the impact that it has on society, on opinions, on conversations, on distribution of information. There’s never been a thing like this that the government didn’t control.
Speaker: 1
43:09
So it makes sense from their perspective continuing the patterns of behavior that they’ve always exhibited, which is to have control over the media. I mean, there has been CIA operatives that have been in major newspapers forever. There’s always been that. There’s always been this sort of input that the government had in mainstream media narratives. They are in a position now where they’re losing that. There’s they’ve essentially lost it.
Speaker: 1
43:35
And especially with this last, the push during COVID deteriorated as you were saying before the opinion and the respect that people have for the facts that are coming from mainstream journalism in a way that I’ve never seen before in my life, where an an enormous percentage of the population does not trust mainstream media anymore.
Speaker: 1
43:54
Sai, well, what do they trust? They trust social media. Well, who’s running that? Well, there are a bunch of people who figured it out and invented it. Well, then fuck that. Like, we gotta crack down on that.
Speaker: 1
44:03
Like, we’ve gotta get our hands on this, which is what we saw during COVID, which is we saw during the Biden administration’s attempt to remove the Hunter Biden laptop story from Twitter and from all these different things that we saw happen, the way they contacted you guys, what they’re trying to do with getting you to remove real information about vaccine side effects like that.
Speaker: 1
44:23
This is, like, this new attempt to ram down on this new thing, which is a distribution outlet that’s far more successful than anything they’ve ever controlled before, and they have no control of it. Right? They they had CBS. They had NBC. They had when they had the New York Times and all these Washington Post, when they were in control of narratives in that way, it was so much easier.
Speaker: 1
44:48
There there wasn’t some sort of pirate radio voice that came on and said, hey, guys. Look, here’s the the latest studies that shows this is not true. Here’s why they’re lying about that. Here’s why they’re lying about this. And now that’s what you get all day long on x. It’s all day long.
Speaker: 1
45:05
It’s ai dissolving illusions. Mhmm. And that’s a completely new thing that probably led to Trump getting elected.
Speaker: 0
45:15
Yeah. I mean, the causality there is tricky. But, because there’s a lot of things. I mean, there’s a lot of things. But without
Speaker: 1
45:21
it, he probably doesn’t get elected.
Speaker: 0
45:25
It’s yeah. It’s tough to know. I mean, Sai I do come back to this point that there were every major incumbent lost their elections around the world.
Speaker: 1
45:33
But I think that’s also But
Speaker: 0
45:34
it might it might it might it might be it might be because of that revealing how how kind of incorrect and and dishonest Ai think some of these governments were. Yes. Yeah. So Ai know that’s that’s quite possible. And, I mean, I I do think that there is this cycle that goes on where, you know, within a society, it’s not just the government that has power.
Speaker: 0
45:55
There’s, like, certain people who are in these, like, culturally elite positions. And, you know, journalists, TV news anchors, like, who are the people who people broadly trust? Right? They’re they’re not all in government. They’re, like, a lot a lot of people, in other positions. It’s ai, who are the people that that, basically people look to?
Speaker: 0
46:14
And, I think that’s basically it needs to shift for the Internet age. And I think a lot of the people who, you know, people look to before, they’re ai realizing, hey. They weren’t super honest about a lot of these issues that we that we face. And Ai know that’s partially ai, you know, social media isn’t a monolithic thing.
Speaker: 0
46:35
It’s not that people trust Facebook or x. They trust the creators and the voices that that they feel ai are being authentic and giving them valuable information on there. So there’s, I think, gonna be just this whole new class of creators who basically become the new kind of cultural elites that people look at and are, like, okay.
Speaker: 0
46:56
These are the people who give it to me straight. And I think that that’s that’s a thing that is maybe it’s it’s possible because of social media. Ai I think it’s also just the Internet more broadly. I mean, I think podcasting is obviously a huge and important part of that too.
Speaker: 0
47:10
I mean, I don’t I don’t know to what extent you feel like you kind of got to be large, like, because of social media or just it’s or just the podcasting platforms that you used. But, but I know that this is, like, a very big sea change in terms of, like, who are the voices that matter.
Speaker: 0
47:27
And, you know, what we do is we we try to build a platform that gives people a voice. But I know there’s this wholesale generational shift in who are the people who are being listened to. And I think that that’s, like, a very fascinating thing that is going on, because I I I think that that’s, like, what is what’s going on here.
Speaker: 0
47:45
It’s not it’s it’s not just the government, and people saying, hey. We we want, like, a very big change here. I think it’s just like a wholesale shift in saying, we just want different people who we actually trust
Speaker: 1
47:57
Right.
Speaker: 0
47:57
Who who are actually gonna, like, tell us the truth and, like, and not give us, like, the bullshit opinions that you’re supposed to say, but, like, the type of stuff that I would actually, like, when I’m sitting with my in my living room with my friends, like, the stuff that we know is true. Like, who are the people who kind of have the courage to actually just say that stuff? I don’t know.
Speaker: 0
48:15
I I think that whole, like, cultural elite class needs to get repopulated with people who people actually trust.
Speaker: 1
48:21
Yeah. The problem is these people that are starting these jobs, they’re coming out of universities. And and the universities are indoctrinated into these ideas as well. It’s it’s very difficult to be a person who stands outside of that and takes unpopular positions. You get socially ostracized and people are very they’re very hesitant to do that, and they would rather just keep their mouth shut and talk about it in quiet conversation.
Speaker: 1
48:47
And that’s what we experience, which is another another argument for anonymous accounts. I think you should have anonymous accounts with I think you should be able like, if there’s something like COVID mandates or some things that you’re dealing with and you don’t wanna get fired because of it, you should be able to talk about it.
Speaker: 0
49:03
Mhmm. And you
Speaker: 1
49:03
should be able to post facts and information and what you’ve learned. And, you know, anecdotal experiences of people in your family that had vaccine side effects and not worry about losing your job, which people were worried about, which is so crazy. And, you know, and you’re seeing a lot of the people that used to be in mainstream media got ai, and now they’re trying to do the sort of podcast thing.
Speaker: 1
49:27
But they’re trying to do it like a mainstream media person. So they’re ai gaslighting during podcasts, and people are like, hey, fuckface. Like, this you you can’t do that here. It doesn’t work.
Speaker: 0
49:39
Yeah. It’s a well, it’s a new medium. I mean, I I know I’m sure you know the history on this. It’s ai when when people transition from radio to TV, the initial TV anchors were the same radio people, but just, like, being filmed while speaking on the radio. But it turned out it actually was a completely different type of person that you need, because on your radio, it’s just, like, your voice and your cadence and all that.
Speaker: 0
49:59
It’s ai, you know, the the whole phrase. It’s ai you’ve got a good radio voice. Right? It’s like Yeah. Okay. On TV, you need to be telegenic. Right?
Speaker: 0
50:06
You need to kind of has have charisma in that medium. It’s, like, a completely different thing. And, I think that that’s gonna be true for the Internet too. It’s, you know, it’s not as cut. Or I think part of it is the format. Right?
Speaker: 0
50:18
The fact that you do these, like, 2, 3 hour episodes I mean, I hated doing TV because, you know, I basically got started I started Facebook when I was 19, and I was good at some things, very bad at others. I was good at coding and, like, real bad at at kind of, like, talking to people and explaining what I was doing.
Speaker: 0
50:40
And I just, like, had these experiences early on where I’d go on TV, and, like, it wouldn’t go well. And they’d, like, cut to they’d cut it to some down to some random sound bite, and I’d, like, look stupid. And then, like, and then, basically, like, I’d get super nervous about about, like, going on TV ai I knew that they were just gonna cut it in some way that I was gonna look like a fucking idiot.
Speaker: 0
51:03
And, like and so I’m just ai, this sucks. Right? So so I just like it’s it’s ai of a funny thing about, like it sai, like, in some ways, it’s like, okay. At the same time, I was, you know, gaining confidence, being able to, like, build more and more complicated products. And it’s even as an early twenties person, I was like, Ai could do this.
Speaker: 0
51:22
And then on the ai of TV and comms public side, I was like, this is a disaster. Every time I go out, it’s worse and worse and worse, and it just gets so but but, I mean, it’s it’s one of the reasons why Ai think on the Internet, like, there’s no reason to cut it to a 4 minute sound ai conversation.
Speaker: 0
51:38
It’s sai I think part of what what makes it authentic is, like, we can just I mean, these are complex issues. We can unpack it for hours and and probably still have hours more stuff to talk about. It just it’s I I don’t know. I Sai think it’s just more real.
Speaker: 1
51:51
Yeah. It’s definitely that. And the the other thing about television that’s always gonna hold it back is the fact that every conversation gets interrupted every x amount of minutes because you have to cut to a commercial. So you you really can’t get into depth. Even Bill Maher shows only an hour.
Speaker: 1
52:08
You know, you have all these people talking over each other, then you sit down with 1 person for sai short amount of time. It’s just not enough time for important subjects. It’s also a lot of them, for whatever reason, wanna do in front of an audience, which is the worst way to get people to talk. Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
52:22
Ai, when you imagine these disasters that you had, if there was, like, 5,000 people staring at you in a TV crowd as
Speaker: 0
52:28
well. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
52:29
So there’s that added element Yeah. Which is so not normal and not conducive to having a conversation where you’re talking about nuanced things Yeah. Where you have to, like, think. You have to be able to pause and and not concern yourself being entertaining for these fucking people just sitting there staring at you.
Speaker: 0
52:47
Yeah. And and, also, like, when you’re having a conversation, say it, like I don’t know. It’s like when you start talking about something, your kind of subconscious kicks in. You start thinking about the the topic. So it’s like you might not actually have the thing that you wanna say until, like, 5 minutes later. Right. And Right.
Speaker: 0
53:01
I mean, it’s like, when we started this conversation, I think, like, the first few minutes were just kinda slow. It’s ai warming up. Like, I’m like, okay. Kinda like downloading into my memory. Like, how how am I gonna, like you know, it’s ai, how am I gonna, you know, just explain these different things?
Speaker: 0
53:16
But it’s, yeah. No. I just think that that’s sort of how people work.
Speaker: 1
53:19
Well, it’s also ai it’s conversations are like a dance. You know. One person can’t be dancing at another speed and the other person is going saloni. Like, you kinda have to find the rhythm that you’re gonna talk with and then you have to actually be interested in what you’re talking about.
Speaker: 1
53:34
That’s another thing that they are at a huge disadvantage of in mainstream media. It’s ai, they’re just doing that because that’s their job. You know, they probably don’t even know a lot about climate change. They probably don’t really understand too much about what speak SpaceX is trying to accomplish, but they’re just reporting on
Speaker: 0
53:50
it. Yeah. I mean, I’m sure there’s the and a lot of the people I’ve met there, I think, are good people.
Speaker: 1
53:54
I’m ai.
Speaker: 0
53:55
It’s just a tough format.
Speaker: 1
53:56
Right? It’s a tough format. Yeah. And the problem is they get locked into that format, and no one trusts them. And then they leave, and they go, yeah. But you were just lying to us about this, that, and the other thing. And now I’m supposed to believe you’re one of the good guys.
Speaker: 1
54:07
You’re one of the straight shooters now. Yeah. Well, getting back to the original point, this is why I think, you know, it makes sense to me that the government didn’t want you to succeed and to have the sort of unchecked power that they perceived social media to to have. And I think one of the benefits that we have now of the Trump administration is that they have clearly felt the repercussions of a limited amount of free speak, of free speech limitations, censorship, government overreach.
Speaker: 1
54:43
If anybody saw it look, it there’s I don’t know what the actual impact of the Hunter Biden laptop story would have been. I don’t know. But there’s many people that think it probably amounted to millions of votes overall in the country of people that were on the fence, the people that weren’t sure who they’re gonna vote for.
Speaker: 1
55:02
If they found out the Hunter Biden laptop was real, they’re like, oh, this is fucked. Their family’s fucking crazy. And they would have voted for Trump. That’s possibly real. And if that’s possibly real, that could be defined as election interference. And all that stuff scares the shit out of me.
Speaker: 1
55:19
That ai of stuff scares the shit out of me. When the government gets involved in what could be termed election interference, but through some weird loophole, it’s legal. Whereas some Well, I I don’t think I
Speaker: 0
55:31
don’t think that the pushing for social media companies to censor stuff was legal. I mean, it’s, like, that’s I mean, there’s all the stuff about what ai like, people talk about the first amendment and okay. These these tech platforms should should offer free speech like the First Amendment. It’s ai, I think, is a philosophical principle.
Speaker: 0
55:50
The First Amendment doesn’t apply to companies and what in our content moderation. It’s more of an American ethos about how we think that that, you know, best dialogue is carried out. But the first amendment does apply to the government. That’s, like, the whole point. Right? It’s the government is not allowed to censor this stuff.
Speaker: 0
56:06
So at some level, I do think that, you know, having people in the administration calling up the guys on our team and yelling at them and cursing and threatening repercussions if we don’t take down things that are true is, like, it’s pretty bad. It sounds illegal. I would love to
Speaker: 1
56:25
hear it. Ai wish somebody recorded those conversations. Well, I
Speaker: 0
56:28
mean because ai be I mean, again, it’s well great to listen to.
Speaker: 1
56:30
Somebody could animate them, maybe PolyTune? The animate. A a lot
Speaker: 0
56:34
of the material is is public. I mean, it’s I mean, Jim Jordan led this whole investigation in the Yeah. In Congress. I mean, it was basically I think about this sai, like you know, what Elon did on the Twitter files when he took over that company, I think Jim Jordan basically did that for the rest of the industry with the the congressional investigation that he did.
Speaker: 0
56:53
And we just turned over, like, all of the documents and everything that we had, to them, and they basically put together this report. And the people that actually did call for censorship,
Speaker: 1
57:04
what was the response to all this?
Speaker: 0
57:08
To what? To the to the investigation? Yes. I don’t know.
Speaker: 1
57:12
I don’t know. Did was anybody held accountable? Was there any I mean any repercussions?
Speaker: 0
57:19
I mean, they lost the election.
Speaker: 1
57:20
Yes. So that’s it. That’s Sai
Speaker: 0
57:22
mean, that’s it. Well, in a democracy, I mean, that’s kinda ai? Right.
Speaker: 1
57:27
But if the if what they did was illegal, do you not think that some steps should be put in place to make sure that people are punished for that and that that never happens again? It seems that that has an a massive impact on the way our country goes. If that’s election interference, and I think it is, that has a massive impact on the direction of our country.
Speaker: 0
57:51
Yeah. Well, the COVID thing, I don’t think, was election interference as much as it was just, like, government meddling where it shouldn’t have. But yeah. No. I mean, it’s No.
Speaker: 1
57:59
I’m I’m talking about the underbowed last week.
Speaker: 0
58:01
Sai, you know, like, what specific retribution or justice should happen to anyone who is involved in these things. But I think your point about let’s make sure this doesn’t happen again
Speaker: 1
58:13
Yeah.
Speaker: 0
58:14
Is, is the one that I’m more focused on. Right? Because it’s the thing that I reflect on on my journey on all this, which is ai, okay. Yeah. So we didn’t take down the stuff that was true, but we did generally defer to the government on some of these policies that in retrospect, I probably wouldn’t knowing what I know now.
Speaker: 0
58:36
And, and I I just think that that’s that’s sort of the journey that we’ve been on. It’s ai, k. We start the thing focused on free expression, go through some, like, pretty crazy times in the world, get it pressure tested, see where we basically ended up doing stuff that led to a slippery slope that we weren’t happy with the conclusion, and, like, try to reset.
Speaker: 0
58:57
And that’s sort of the moment that we’re at now is is trying to just rationalize, a bunch of a bunch of the policies. And and, look, I mean, obviously, crazy things can happen in the future that might unearth something that I haven’t, you know, some some kind of angle on this that I haven’t, thought enough about yet.
Speaker: 0
59:14
So I don’t know. I’m sure I’m not done making mistakes in the world. But, but I think at this point, we have a much more thorough understanding of what the space is. And I I I think our our kind of values and principles on this are likely going to be much more durable going forward.
Speaker: 0
59:31
And and I think that that’s probably a good thing for the Internet.
Speaker: 1
59:35
I think it’s a great thing for the Internet. Sai ai very happy with your announcement. I’m very happy that you took those steps. I’m very happy you brought Dana White aboard.
Speaker: 0
59:42
Oh, he’s awesome. Been talking to him for a while. Ai that. I mean, he’s like talk about, like, an amazing entrepreneur. Right? It’s like, I just want like, because I control our company, I have the benefit of not having to convince the board not to fire me. Right? It’s like a normal corporate environment.
Speaker: 0
59:57
It’s like, basically, the CEO just tries to, like you know, they’re just trying to convince the board to, like, let them have their job and pay them more. It’s like, alright. The board doesn’t pay me except for security, and, and I’m not worried about losing my job, because I control the majority of the voting in in the company.
Speaker: 0
01:00:13
So I actually get to use our board to, like, have the smartest people who I can get to have around me help work on these problems. So it’s ai, alright. Who are the people I want? Like, I I just want, like, the best entrepreneurs and people who’ve created different things. And, like, I mean, Dana is, like, this guy who I mean, he basically took the sport from being this, like I think it was viewed as, like, this pretty marginal thing when he got started.
Speaker: 0
01:00:36
Right? I mean, John McCain was trying to outlaw it and Yeah. And, you know, now it’s ai and I think it and f 1 are the 2 fastest growing sports in the world. It’s got 100 of millions of people viewing it. It’s like I mean, what Dana’s done with the UFC is, like, one of the most legendary business stories, and, and the brand is beloved.
Speaker: 0
01:00:57
And and I think he’s just, so he’s, like, a world class entrepreneur, and he’s just ai a he’s got a strong backbone. And I think part of what the conversation that I had with him around joining our board was, okay. Like, we have a lot of governments and folks around the world putting a lot of pressure on our company, and, like, we need some, like, strong people who are gonna basically, you know, help help advise us on how to handle some of these situations.
Speaker: 0
01:01:23
And, and so yeah. That’s but but, yeah, I mean, this is running this company is not for the faint of heart. I mean, you definitely there’s definitely a lot of pressure from from, like, all these different governments. And and then then it’s like, okay. I could spend all my time doing that, but I’m not even a politician. Like, I wanna I just wanna spend my time building things. Right?
Speaker: 0
01:01:40
So so it’s, so, yeah, I I think Dana’s gonna be great.
Speaker: 1
01:01:44
He’s the best. Great entrepreneur. I agree with everything you said about him. Without him, none of the UFC would have ever taken place the way it did. I mean, you needed the Fertitta brothers. They had to come in with all the money and the vision. And it’s really funny because Eddie Bravo and I you know, we’ve been fans for so long. Eddie Bravo and I went to a live event in the nineties.
Speaker: 1
01:02:02
I was working for the UFC as a backstage interviewer, and he went there with Ricky Rocket. You know Ricky Rocket ai Poison? No. He’s a fucking black belt under the Machados. He’s legit. Super legit. Really nice guy too.
Speaker: 1
01:02:15
Anyway, so Ricky Rocket and him were at the, UFC, and we were talking about it in the nineties. So, like, you know what the sport needs? Because we were in love with it. We’re ai this but we were martial artists. We’re ai, the sport needs some billionaires who just throw a ton of money at it and just get it huge. And then the Ferdida brothers come along. Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:02:34
Billionaires with a ton of money who are huge fans of the speak. Mhmm. Just love the sport. You know, we’re hiring people like Frank Shamrock to come in and train them and work out and we’re taking jiu jitsu with John Lewis and they were really getting into it. And so then they buy the UFC for, like, $2,000,000 which is probably the greatest purchase ever, except they were 40 plus $1,000,000 in the hole Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:02:58
When they financed the ultimate fighter. And then that was 2,005, and then this one fight takes place with Stefan Bader and Forrest Griffin on television. It’s so wild and so crazy that millions of people start tuning in. The sport’s born. Then you have Chuck Liddell who was the champion at the ai, who was the most fan friendly champion you could ever have, just a fucking Berserker with just ai with a fucking head tattoo and a mohawk crushing people.
Speaker: 1
01:03:26
In his prime. He was the perfect poster guy for the UFC because he was just smashing people and then throwing his arms back like in a cage. It was nuts. I’m sure you’ve seen a lot of Chuck Waddell fights. Right? Yeah. It is it was just the the whole thing took off.
Speaker: 1
01:03:42
But without Dana, it would have never taken place. The guy’s tireless. That meh, Ai could call him up. I’ll call him up at, like, 2 o’clock in the morning ai. Like, there’s some fight going on. And I’ll say, hey, This is going on next weekend.
Speaker: 1
01:03:53
I’m so fucking pumped and hit we’ll we’ll talk for hours for hours. He just wants to talk about fights. He’s, like, so locked in, like, all the tyler, you know? And he’s he’s just, like, so driven. He was and now that he’s healthy, like, oh my god.
Speaker: 1
01:04:08
He’s got what Gary Breck has done for him is incredible. He lost all his weight, got super thin, real fit, super healthy. He doesn’t fuck around with alcohol anymore. He just eats healthy food. He looks great. Now he’s getting even more energy. Yeah. It’s incredible.
Speaker: 0
01:04:23
Well, we’re lucky to have some of it.
Speaker: 1
01:04:25
Yeah. We are. And you know what? We’re also lucky that you got into jujitsu because I think I think that had an effect on you. You look different. When you walked in here today, you look thicker. You look like a different guy. You do. You look like a jujitsu guy now. It’s funny. I saw your neck.
Speaker: 1
01:04:41
I’m like, his neck’s bigger. Your neck is bigger. Good. Are you using iron neck, or is it just
Speaker: 0
01:04:46
I do like I do like iron neck. But but it’s but when I started training not just jujitsu, but striking, I was like, alright. I wanna find a way to do this where I don’t, like, like, hurt my brain. Right? It’s like, alright. Like, I need to I’m gonna be running this company for a while. I would like to Yeah. You know, like, stay stay healthy and not take too much damage.
Speaker: 0
01:05:07
And so I think the number one thing you need to do is well, in addition to having good partners is, have a strong neck. Yes. So yeah. So yeah. No. I I take that I take that pretty seriously.
Speaker: 1
01:05:18
It’s very important. A strong neck is great for jiu jitsu as well because it’s a weapon, like, in certain positions, like, head and arm chokes. Yeah. You need a neck.
Speaker: 0
01:05:26
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:05:27
Yeah. It’s a weapon. Yeah. And, you know, and also for defending things and just for overall stability. But for striking, it’s very like Ai Tyson in his prime. He had
Speaker: 0
01:05:36
a fucking 20 inches neck. Yeah. No. It’s crazy. His neck is, like, bigger than his his face.
Speaker: 1
01:05:41
A photo of him in a suit. It’s the craziest photo. It’s ai his neck starts sai the top of his ears and it just goes straight down
Speaker: 0
01:05:47
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:05:48
When he was sai champ, when
Speaker: 0
01:05:49
he was a tank. Amazing.
Speaker: 1
01:05:50
Yeah. The neck’s very important. But it’s also, like, you know, you’re doing it very smart. You’re you’re bringing in Dave Camarillo.
Speaker: 0
01:05:58
He’s awesome. Amazing. He’s awesome.
Speaker: 1
01:06:00
You’re bringing in all these, like, super talented people to train with you too, which is really important and just learn systematically, probably the way you’ve learned all these other things, which is really so fascinating to me about MMA and and jiu jitsu in particular, is the general public has this knuckle dragging meathead sort of perspective. And then I’m like, let me introduce you to Mikey Musumeci. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:06:25
Well, there’s there’s a range.
Speaker: 1
01:06:26
There’s a
Speaker: 0
01:06:27
range for Mikey to Right.
Speaker: 1
01:06:28
But Mikey is one of the elite of the elite, and he’s about as far from that.
Speaker: 0
01:06:32
I love Mikey. He’s he’s a very good guy. He’s super good guy.
Speaker: 1
01:06:35
He’s super kind and and unbelievably brilliant and eccentric
Speaker: 0
01:06:40
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:06:40
And just and just so dedicated jiu jitsu.
Speaker: 0
01:06:42
Right? Yeah. I’m I’m glad I’m glad that he’s over at the UFC now.
Speaker: 1
01:06:45
Yes. I am too. Yeah. Well, I’m glad a guy like that exists. I I like because I like I’m like, okay. I know you think that. Let me show you this guy. And then, like, let me show you what it really is. Let me introduce you to these people because they’re the nicest people. I know. There’s no better stress reliever in the world than jujitsu or martial arts. There’s no better. You you leave there. You’re the kindest person in the world.
Speaker: 1
01:07:05
You just, like, heal all of your aggressions out of your system. Yeah. And it’s a phenomenal stress reliever because regardless of what you’re going through day to day with Facebook and Meta and all the different projects you have going on, it’s not as hard as someone trying to just choke you unconscious.
Speaker: 0
01:07:20
It’s it’s not as acute. I think it’s like, sometimes you have someone trying to choke you unconscious slowly over a multi month multiyear period, and that’s that’s business. But Right. But no. I think that sometimes in business, the cycle time is so long that it is very refreshing to just have a feedback loop that’s ai, oh, I, like, had my hand down, so I got punched in the face.
Speaker: 0
01:07:42
It’s like that’s like
Speaker: 1
01:07:43
Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:07:44
That’s, but yeah. I know. I it’s it’s really important to me for balance. I mean, I I basically try to train every morning. I’m I’m either doing general fitness or or kind of MMA. I’m do ai grappling, sometimes striking, or sometimes both. But, it got to the point where Ai not I I tore my ACL training.
Speaker: 0
01:08:03
I was probably, at that point, I didn’t have I wasn’t integrated between my weight training and my fighting training, so I think I was probably overdoing it. So now Mhmm. Now we basically I’m I’m just trying to do this in a cohesive way, which I I think will be more sustainable.
Speaker: 0
01:08:19
But when I when I tore my ACL, first of all, everyone at the company was like, ah, fuck. We’re gonna get so many more emails now. It’s ai that that he can’t that he can’t do this. And then and I sat down with Priscilla, and I expected her to be like, you’re an idiot. Like, what do you expect? You’re ai you know, I was in my late thirties at the ai, and but she was like, no.
Speaker: 0
01:08:40
She’s like, when you heal your ACL, you better go back to fighting. And I’m like, what do what do you mean? She’s like, you are so much better to be around now that you’re doing this. You have to fight. And sai That’s hilarious. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:08:53
Sai, and, Isn’t
Speaker: 1
01:08:54
it funny that, like, that’s completely contrary to the way most people, if they’re outside of it, would perceive it?
Speaker: 0
01:09:01
I mean, it it definitely takes the edge off things. Ai it’s, like, after, like, a couple of hours of doing that in the morning, it’s just, like yeah. It’s, like, nothing else that day is gonna stress you out that much. Right? You can just you can just deal with it. Voluntary adversity. Yeah. Yeah. No. It’s good.
Speaker: 0
01:09:17
It’s good. It’s also good, I think, to be a little bit tired. Like, it’s ai it just it’s I love that feeling of just, like, you’re not, like, exhausted. And sometimes you get a session and you just go so hard, and you I need to, like, just go to sleep or something. But Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:09:32
It’s also good to know that you can kill people. That’s that’s a good thing to know. It’s a good thing to know if something goes sideways.
Speaker: 0
01:09:40
I guess there’s a there’s a certain conflict ai that. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:09:43
It’s an important skill. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:09:44
If you
Speaker: 1
01:09:45
could give it in a pill, if you could sell it in a pill, everybody would buy it. Yeah. A 100 no one would say Ai like to be the vulnerable guy walking around with a bunch of fucking assassins.
Speaker: 0
01:09:54
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:09:54
No one would say that. They would say, how much is the pill? Oh, it’s $2. Oh, give me one of those pills. You take the pill. Everybody would take that pill. Well, it exists. It’s just not a pill. It’s a long journey of pain and discipline and and trial and error and learning and being open minded and being objective and understanding position, asking questions and asking questions, and having good training partners, and absorbing information, and really being diligent with your skill acquisition work, which is one of the most important and neglected parts of jujitsu because training is so fun.
Speaker: 1
01:10:28
Everybody just wants to roll, you know. Yeah. Where really the best way to do it is actually to drill and Mhmm. It’s the most boring, but really you should drill constantly just jam those skills into your neurons where your brain knows exactly what to do in every position. And it’s such an intellectual pursuit. And most people don’t think of it that way because you have to manage your mind while you’re moving your body. You’re managing anxieties.
Speaker: 1
01:10:52
You’re you’re you’re trying to figure out when to hit the gas and when to control position and recover. There’s so much going on in training that applies to virtually any stressful thing that you’ll ever experience in your life. And along with it, you get this skill where you can kill people. You shouldn’t kill people. Let me be clear.
Speaker: 1
01:11:15
I’m not saying it’s a good thing to kill people. I’m definitely not. But I’m saying it’s a good thing to if someone’s trying to kill you and they absolutely can’t because you could kill them easy, that’s way better. It’s a way better situation to be in.
Speaker: 0
01:11:28
Yeah. No. It’s it’s great. I mean, it’s it’s open a lot of how I think about stuff. I mean, it’s it is just interesting when your your point about, like, having a pill that allows you to just kind of know that you have this kind of physical ability. It’s,
Speaker: 1
01:11:46
It’s a superpower.
Speaker: 0
01:11:47
It’s it’s interesting because I I do think a lot of our society has become very, like I don’t know. I don’t even know the right word for it, but it’s ai it kinda, like, neutered or, like, emasculated. And it’s there’s, like, a whole energy in this that Ai I think it’s it is very healthy in the right balance.
Speaker: 0
01:12:07
Ai mean, I think part of the reason I mean, every one of the things that I enjoy about it is that I feel like I can just, like, express myself. Right? It’s like ai you’re running a company, people typically don’t wanna see you being, like, this ruthless person who’s, ai, just like, I’m just gonna, like, crush the people I’m competing with.
Speaker: 0
01:12:25
But, like, but when you’re fighting, it’s like, no. No. That’s ai so I I think in some worded. Ai think in some ways, when people see me competing in the sport, they’re like, oh, no. That’s the real mark.
Speaker: 0
01:12:35
It’s ai because it’s it goes back to the all the media training stuff we were talking about when I’m going and doing my sound ai for 2 minutes. It’s like, no. It’s like, fuck that guy. It’s like, that’s the real one. It’s but,
Speaker: 1
01:12:47
well, you definitely got a lot of respect in the martial arts community. People get super excited that you were so involved in it and so interested in it because anytime someone like yourself or ai Tom Hardy or anyone they’re like, wow, that guy’s into it? Like, wow. Anytime something like that happens and there’s, like, some new person who’s a prominent person, a very smart person, it’s really interested in it, we all get very excited because we’re, like, oh, boy.
Speaker: 0
01:13:08
It’s a very welcoming community. Super. Ai I think
Speaker: 1
01:13:11
there’s a lot of
Speaker: 0
01:13:12
a lot of sports are, like, nah. We don’t want you.
Speaker: 1
01:13:14
It’s not a jock community. No. No. No. Super kind. Yeah. Like, jujitsu people in in particular, they’re some of the nicest speak and those are my friends forever. You know? They’ll be my friends for life.
Speaker: 0
01:13:24
Yeah. Yeah. No. It’s it’s a it’s a good crew. I mean, when I got hurt, I I really kinda missed the guys I trained with. I mean, it’s like Davis put together this this group. It’s basically these, like all these young pro fighters who are kind of, like, up and coming, like, kind of early twenties, but they’ve only been doing it for a few years.
Speaker: 0
01:13:41
So, like, I’ve been doing it for for a few years. That way, it’s like we kind of are have a more similar level of skill, and they’re all better than me. But, like, but in terms of I’m like I was in my late thirties, and they’re in their early twenties. It was sort of, like, they’re kind of be coming into Becoming Men.
Speaker: 0
01:13:55
I’m, like, sort of at the end of my fiscal speak, but it’s, like, it’s, it’s, it’s it’s a really good crew. Yeah. No. It’s a good crew. And the competing thing is fun. I can’t wait to get back to that too.
Speaker: 0
01:14:08
I mean, it’s, like, basically I mean, I was also doing it with so it’s basically some a group of pro fighters and then a handful of meta executives would do it. And meh, basically, we would just kinda, like, fight each other, and it would be fun. And and, and then one of them decided one day that they’re they’re like, you know, I think I’m getting pretty good at jiu jitsu.
Speaker: 0
01:14:27
I’m gonna go to a tournament. And I was like, alright. Good luck with that, bro. Like, I’m I’m not going to I’m not gonna go to tournament. It’s ai they gotta like, I don’t wanna go to a tournament and get him get embarrassed. It’s like like but then the guy goes to the tournament.
Speaker: 0
01:14:39
He, like, does pretty well. I’m like, that guy? It’s like it’s like, okay. It’s like, we go all the time and, like, and, if if he’s doing well in the tournament, that’s like, alright. Fine. Sign me up. Right?
Speaker: 0
01:14:49
It’s like so, Sai mean, because it’s just, like, super competitive. So this was, like, when was this? Ai must have been I don’t know. I guess I I rolled into this tournament, and I registered under my first and middle name. So people didn’t know who who I sai.
Speaker: 0
01:15:07
And I had, like, sunglasses and a hat, and I wore a COVID mask. And, like, and I and, basically, it was ai it wasn’t until they called our names to step onto the mat that I was like, alright. I took all this stuff off, and they ai, like, what?
Speaker: 1
01:15:22
That’s kind of a cheat code.
Speaker: 0
01:15:24
I mean
Speaker: 1
01:15:25
yeah. Kinda ai freak out. Ai, yeah,
Speaker: 0
01:15:27
I think he was trying to figure out what was going on. Afterwards, his his, coach was like he was like, I think that was Mark Zuckerberg who who just submitted me. And the the coach is like, no. No no no way. Then he’s like, no. I think that was. Ai like, what? You’re you’re ai Mark Zuckerberg. He said, get back in there.
Speaker: 0
01:15:43
It’s like, get meh go find him. He’s like, no. He just submitted me. It’s
Speaker: 1
01:15:51
That’s very funny. Yeah, man. Well, Tom Hardy’s doing that too. Right? He’s done multiple tournaments now.
Speaker: 0
01:15:56
Yeah. No. I think I think yeah. Yeah. I I I can’t wait wait to get back to competing. It’s been it’s been sort of a slow journey on the the rehab. It’s sort of ai learning twice. Mhmm. But but we’re we’re getting there.
Speaker: 1
01:16:10
How far out are you?
Speaker: 0
01:16:11
Oh, no. I’m done with the rehab now. Now I’m just ramping up.
Speaker: 1
01:16:14
Far out are you from surgery?
Speaker: 0
01:16:19
12, 12 months. 13 months.
Speaker: 1
01:16:20
So you did the patella tendon graft. Right?
Speaker: 0
01:16:23
I did. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:16:24
That’s a rough one to come back from. I did, the patella tendon graft on my left knee, and it took me about a year. I did the ACL from a cadaver. It’s actually they use an Achilles tendon ram a cadaver on my right knee, and I was back to jujitsu in 6 months. Ai, full confidence in 6 months. I was Interesting. 100% recovered, kicking the bag, everything. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:16:46
Yeah. How how, how old were you when you got those?
Speaker: 1
01:16:50
The first one, I was 26. The second one, I was 30 1, 32, somewhere around there.
Speaker: 0
01:17:02
Oh, so so young? Yeah. Because Sai mean, my my doctor is basically ai, look, you’re at the you’re, like, at the boundary. You could go either way. But if you wanna compete again, then I’d recommend doing the patella.
Speaker: 1
01:17:12
Yeah. I know they say that. I don’t agree with that. I mean, just from my own personal experience, my doctor told me that the ACL from a cadaver when they use the patella tendograft is a 150% stronger than your natural ACL. He said you’ll be back to because I didn’t have any meniscus damage on ai right knee. He’s like you’ll be back ai a 100%.
Speaker: 1
01:17:32
I have a lot of meniscus damage on my left knee unfortunately, which is also part of the problem with the recovery of that one. But the, patella tendon graft, the bone on the kneecap was painful forever in terms of, like, getting on my knees, like, training ram my knees, doing doing certain positions and even just stretching.
Speaker: 1
01:17:50
Like, you know, putting my knees on the ground, sitting on my heels and then laying back, it was fucking painful. It took forever to break all that scar tissue up, and now it’s fine. It’s fine now.
Speaker: 0
01:18:01
Yeah. I mean It’s
Speaker: 1
01:18:02
a long time ago.
Speaker: 0
01:18:03
Yeah. I can kinda do everything that I want at this point. It’s still, like, a little sore, but I I I don’t know. I think that it’s supposed to be a couple years until you, like, feel like it’s full. I think it takes some time for the nerves to grow into it and all that.
Speaker: 1
01:18:14
Did you incorporate peptides in your recovery?
Speaker: 0
01:18:17
I I didn’t.
Speaker: 1
01:18:19
Do you hate healing?
Speaker: 0
01:18:20
Do I hate healing? Ai.
Speaker: 1
01:18:22
I didn’t use peptides.
Speaker: 0
01:18:23
I don’t know. I just took my doctor’s advice on it.
Speaker: 1
01:18:25
Yeah. But don’t do that anymore.
Speaker: 0
01:18:27
I meh,
Speaker: 1
01:18:28
next time No. There’s other people to talk to.
Speaker: 0
01:18:31
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s going pretty well. It’s going pretty well. I’m sure
Speaker: 1
01:18:34
it goes pretty well, but it would go quicker with peptides. 100%.
Speaker: 0
01:18:38
For sure.
Speaker: 1
01:18:38
But it’s been this interesting
Speaker: 0
01:18:40
opportunity to, ai, like, I really don’t want that to happen again. So I I feel like I’m so much more focused on technique. Like, the first time that I learned all this stuff, I was like, I was probably, like, a little too brutish about it and and just, like, muscling through stuff.
Speaker: 0
01:18:56
And now, I don’t know. Now I feel like I’m, like, really learning how to do this stuff correctly, and I can do it way more effortlessly. So it’s it’s,
Speaker: 1
01:19:06
That’s the goal. How did it pop? How did it pop?
Speaker: 0
01:19:09
Ai was I was, like, the end of a session, and, through 30 minutes into training, and I was doing, like, a few rounds. And, and I basically, I threw a leg kick, and the other guy went to check it. And I, like, leaned back to try to get around the check and just put too much torque on my knee. Mhmm. So it was the planted meh.
Speaker: 0
01:19:27
But, Mine was a planted leg too. Yeah. But it’s I don’t know. Dave was, ai, you know before that round, Dave was ai, you’re done. I’m like, no.
Speaker: 0
01:19:35
One more round.
Speaker: 1
01:19:36
You know? So you’re too tired as well.
Speaker: 0
01:19:38
Yeah. And and Ai and I and I basically and I hadn’t, you know, I I basically had also just done a really hard kind of, like, leg workout the day before.
Speaker: 1
01:19:50
But I don’t
Speaker: 0
01:19:51
think the the but the fight guys didn’t know that. So I I I really just pushed it too hard.
Speaker: 1
01:19:55
Are you aware of, knees over toes guy? Yeah. Have you done his stuff?
Speaker: 0
01:20:00
I’ve I’ve looked at it a bunch. I mean, the rehab thing I took really seriously, I thought that was pretty interesting too. Mhmm. That’s, I don’t wanna, like, have to do a lot of rehabs like this one. But to do one of them, I actually thought it was a pretty interesting experience because it’s, like, week over week, you’re just getting back so much mobility and Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:20:17
And ability to do stuff. And Yeah. No. I feel like I’m, I don’t know. At this point, I ai, like like, probably half ai weight training is is effectively kind of, like, rehab and joint health stuff.
Speaker: 0
01:20:32
And, like, wrists, shoulders, knee, all that in addition to the big muscle groups.
Speaker: 1
01:20:37
Yeah. That’s very smart. The knee over toes guy stuff is particularly effective because it it all comes from a guy that had a series of pretty catastrophic knee injuries and was plagued with weak knees his whole ai. And then developed a bunch of different methods to strengthen all the supporting muscles around the knee that are really extraordinary. Everything from Nordic curls. Do you do those?
Speaker: 1
01:21:00
Do you do Nordic curls?
Speaker: 0
01:21:03
I should. I should do more than I do.
Speaker: 1
01:21:05
Yeah. Leg curls, Nordic curls, but Nordic curls in particular because, you know, you it’s very difficult to do.
Speaker: 0
01:21:10
You you got your
Speaker: 1
01:21:11
body Yeah. You lift your whole body up with your hamstrings. Yeah. And all these different, slant board squats and different lunges and split squats and all these different things which, like, really strengthen up all the supporting muscles around the knee better than anything that I’ve ever tried before.
Speaker: 1
01:21:29
And he’s got, like, a whole program where it scales up and he puts it online for everybody. Yeah. And he gives away a lot of information for free because he said, look, look, when I was 11 years old, I wish I had access to this. So I’m gonna put it out there for everybody. Great guy. Mhmm. Yeah. Cool. But I can’t recommend that stuff enough.
Speaker: 1
01:21:46
But I think what you’re doing is ai strengthening shoulders, strengthening that’s really the way to do it. Like, you have to think of muscles in terms of ai armor, you know. If you wanna do this thing, you know, it’s better to have good bumpers around your car if you might bump into other cars. Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:21:59
You know,
Speaker: 1
01:21:59
you don’t wanna just have raw sheet meh, you know?
Speaker: 0
01:22:03
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think a lot of people just focus on, like, the big movements and and weight training. Mhmm. It’s I don’t know. First of all, for, like, a lot of fighting type stuff, you you kinda wanna be loose and, like, not super tight. So, but, yeah, I mean, I I just think, like, the the joint stability stuff is you get older and ai wanna do this for a longer period of time.
Speaker: 0
01:22:24
It’s it’s good to do.
Speaker: 1
01:22:26
Yeah. It’s huge. It’s, mobility in general. It’s just, like, so important.
Speaker: 0
01:22:30
You can compete in jujitsu for a long time. Sure. There’s, like, all these masters divisions and stuff and meh. Just those
Speaker: 1
01:22:36
old crazy looking 7 year old dudes trying
Speaker: 0
01:22:37
to kill each other. Yeah. It’s
Speaker: 1
01:22:38
nuts. It’s great. It is great but for real sincerely, we’re very happy. The the I think I could speak rarely do but I think I could speak for the martial arts community. We’re very happy that you’re bored. It just it makes it it makes it fun that someone is, you know, a prominent intellectual, very intelligent person who’s really gotten fascinated by it because it does help to kill that sort of knuckle dragger perspective that a lot of people have about the sport.
Speaker: 0
01:23:06
No. I I think it’s super intellectual in terms of actually breaking this stuff down. I mean, both jujitsu and, like, striking. I mean, it’s yeah. You don’t have time to think, but, like, the reasoning behind why you kind of wanna slip in certain ways and, like, the probability game that you’re playing Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:23:24
Is, I don’t know. I used defense when I was in high school, and I did that pretty competitively. I was never, like, quite good enough to be, like, at the Olympic level, but I was pretty good. And, we virtual fenced last time you were here. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:23:39
There meh go. And and, like, I, you know, I just remember I would, like, sit in my classes in high school and, like, sketch out combinations of moves and sequences for how to, like, faint and, like, and and kinda trick someone to get them out of position to be able to tap them.
Speaker: 0
01:24:00
And it’s, I I I feel like this is ai a game in the same way. Mhmm. Right? It’s like I mean, I think when when you’re training, you’re not, like, slugging at each other that much. You’re just ai you’re, you know, playing tag.
Speaker: 1
01:24:11
Yeah. You’re playing tag. Well, the way the Thais do it, I think, is the best. And they’re obviously some of the best fighters ever. They fight a lot, which is one of the reasons why they train the way they train. But when you talk to people that train over there, they’re like, you learn so much more when you’re playing.
Speaker: 1
01:24:24
You know, when you’re doing it, when you’re not trying to hurt each other.
Speaker: 0
01:24:29
You know,
Speaker: 1
01:24:29
then you really do learn the technique, like and it gets fully ingrained in your system. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:24:35
It’s great.
Speaker: 1
01:24:36
Yeah. You just have to be careful bryden damage. Like, you were talking about having an MMA fight. Are you still entertaining that?
Speaker: 0
01:24:41
I I want to. I mean, this is my thing. It’s ai and I I think I probably will, but we’ll we’ll see. I mean, it’s 2025, I think, is gonna be a very busy year on the AI side. Yeah. And I don’t like, I I think the idea of having a competition, you really need to, like, get into the headspace of, like, I’m gonna fight someone this week.
Speaker: 0
01:25:01
Mhmm. And, so I need to I need to figure this out because I don’t I don’t know how with everything that’s going on in Ai, I’m gonna have, like, a week or 2 where I can just get into this, like, I’m gonna go fight someone. But but it’s good it’s good training. But and I I would like to at some point.
Speaker: 0
01:25:18
You know, the thing about the ACL injury is Ai I kind of thought before this, it’s like, alright. I’m gonna do some jujitsu competitions. I wanna do 1 MMA fight, like, one kind of, like, pro or competitive MMA ai. And then I figured I’d go back to jujitsu, but I think tearing the ACL striking is a little more of a fluke.
Speaker: 0
01:25:37
Ai think you’re much more likely to do that grappling. So going through the ACL experience didn’t make me wanna, like, just exclusively go do the version where you’re just attacking joints all day long. Right? So Mhmm. I’m like, alright. We can take a few more punches to the face before we go back to that.
Speaker: 1
01:25:54
You can hurt yourself doing both of them. You know? You there’s really no rhyme or reason. I blew my left ACLs kickboxing, my right ACL jujitsu.
Speaker: 0
01:26:02
Okay. And that’s So equal opportunity.
Speaker: 1
01:26:04
Yeah. I mean, this this, like, Tom Aspinall famously blew his out against Curtis Bryden with the supporting leg just for
Speaker: 0
01:26:10
a kick
Speaker: 1
01:26:10
and his Yeah. It’s freak accidents. Yeah. Weird things happen. You’re it’s a lot of explosive force with ai, and sometimes that tears things more than saloni, controlled movements of jujitsu, especially if you have good training partners.
Speaker: 0
01:26:23
Yeah. But jujitsu isn’t always slower controlled
Speaker: 1
01:26:25
Nope. When
Speaker: 0
01:26:26
you’re especially when you’re competing.
Speaker: 1
01:26:27
No. Especially when you’re competing. Unless you’re really, really good. Like, you ever watch Gordon? Like, Gordon never moves fast. He doesn’t have to. He doesn’t have to move fast. He’s just, like, always a step ahead of everybody. Have you talked to him at all? Oh, yeah. Did you talk to John Donahue?
Speaker: 0
01:26:43
No. I haven’t. You need to talk to him? Yeah. No. I I would be interested in that.
Speaker: 1
01:26:45
That’s the greatest mind in combat sports. Now Gordon is the one that says I don’t sai that lightly. John Donahue is the greatest mind in combat sports
Speaker: 0
01:26:53
Interesting.
Speaker: 1
01:26:53
By far. He’s a legitimate genius. You know the whole story. Right? The guy was a professor of philosophy at Stanford and just or Columbia? Where was he? I forgot. The Columbia, I think it was.
Speaker: 0
01:27:04
Columbia.
Speaker: 1
01:27:04
And then decides, I’m just gonna teach jiu jitsu all day. Sleeps on the meh, teaches all day long, you know. Where’s a rash guard anywhere he goes? He’s a freak and he’s so fucking smart, ai, scary smart about all kinds of things. It’s not just jujitsu. You know, he’s got a a memory ai a steel ai, like, he just holds on to thoughts and can repeat them. His recall’s insane.
Speaker: 1
01:27:27
He’s a a legitimate genius that became obsessed with jujitsu. And what he’s done with Gordon and with Gary Toonen and, you know, just a series of other athletes is nothing short of extraordinary. You know? Just an interesting guy to have conversations with too. Have you seen him on Lexus Shah?
Speaker: 1
01:27:45
He’s done a couple
Speaker: 0
01:27:46
episodes of Lexus. And I watched I I saw the one that you did with him
Speaker: 1
01:27:50
too. Love the guy. Yeah. Because, I mean, again, happy there’s someone like that that out there. Because when people have these ideas of what martial arts are and then you see a guy like that, you’re like, okay. Why? I might have to rethink this.
Speaker: 0
01:28:03
Yeah. There’s a there’s a whole spectrum of people.
Speaker: 1
01:28:06
Yeah. What has it done in terms of a lot of one of the things that a lot of people said and I have too, like, nothing turns you into a libertarian quicker than jiu jitsu.
Speaker: 0
01:28:15
I don’t
Speaker: 1
01:28:16
know why that is. I I think it’s a hard work thing. It’s cutting out all of the bullshit and realizing how much of the things that we take as real things are just excuses and bullshit and weakness and just to procrastinate. There’s a lot of things that we have that exist, especially in ai the business world, in the corporate world, in the education world that are just bullshit.
Speaker: 1
01:28:38
And they don’t really have to be there. Mhmm. And they’re only there to try to make up for hard work.
Speaker: 0
01:28:43
Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. I mean, it’s kinda just what I what I was saying before. I think the for me, it’s, just Ai think a lot of the corporate world is is, like, pretty culturally neutered. And and I I I just think, like, having you know, I I grew up I have 3 sisters, no brothers. I have 3 daughters, no sons.
Speaker: 0
01:29:12
So I’m, like, surrounded by girls and women, like, my my whole life. And it’s ai so I think, I don’t know. There’s there’s something the the the kind of masculine energy, I think, is is good. And Yeah. Obviously, you know, society has plenty of that, but but I think corporate culture was really, like, trying to get away from it.
Speaker: 0
01:29:32
And I do think that there’s just something it’s like I don’t know. The these all these forms of energy are good, and I think having a culture that, like, celebrates the aggression a bit more has its own merits that are really positive. And that’s that has been that has been a kind of a positive experience for me.
Speaker: 0
01:29:56
Just, like, having a thing that I can just, like, do with my guy friends and, like Yeah. And it’s just, like, we just, like, beat each other a bit. I don’t know. It’s it’s good. It is good. I agree. I don’t know.
Speaker: 1
01:30:07
It’s good. It just I I could see your point, though, about Yeah. Corporate culture. How when do you think that happened? Was that a slow shift? Because I think it used to be very masculine. And I used to be I think it was kind of hyper aggressive at one point
Speaker: 0
01:30:21
in time. Look. And I think part of the the intent on all these things, I think, is good. Right? It’s I like, I do think that if you’re a a woman going into a company, it probably feels like it’s too masculine. It’s like there isn’t enough of the ai of the energy that that that you may naturally have, and it probably feels like there are all these things that are set up that are biased against you.
Speaker: 0
01:30:40
And that’s not good either because you want you want women to be able to succeed and Right. Ai, like, have companies that can unlock all the value from having great people no matter, you know, what their background or gender. You know? So but but I think these things can all always go a little far.
Speaker: 0
01:30:54
And I think it’s one thing to say we wanna be kind of, like, welcoming and make a good environment for everyone, and I think it’s another to basically say that masculinity is bad. And I I just think we kind of swung culturally to that part of the the kind of
Speaker: 1
01:31:10
Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:31:11
The spectrum where, you know, it’s all like, okay. Masculinity is toxic. We have to, like, get rid of it completely. It’s ai, no. Like, it’s both of these things are good. Right? It’s like you want, like, feminine energy. You want masculine energy. Like, I I think that that’s like, you’re gonna have parts of society that have more of 1 or the other. I think that that’s all good.
Speaker: 0
01:31:29
But, but I do think the corporate culture sort of had swung towards being this somewhat more neutered thing. And I didn’t really feel that until I got involved in martial arts, which I think is still a more much more masculine culture. And, so and not not that it doesn’t try to be inclusive in its own way, but, but I think that there’s just a lot more of that energy there.
Speaker: 0
01:32:00
And I just kind of realized it’s like, oh, this
Speaker: 1
01:32:01
is like how you become successful at martial arts. You have to be at least somewhat aggressive.
Speaker: 0
01:32:06
Yeah. So Yeah. But but yeah. I mean, there are these things there are, like, a few of these things throughout your life where you just you have an experience, and you’re like, where has this been my whole life? And it just, like, it it just turned on, like, a part of my brain that I was like, okay. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:32:21
Like, this was this was a piece of the puzzle that should’ve been there, and I’m glad it now is.
Speaker: 1
01:32:27
That Ai felt that way when I started hunting.
Speaker: 0
01:32:29
Oh, yeah. Hunting too.
Speaker: 1
01:32:30
Yeah. Same kind of thing. You’ve so you’ve done a lot of that as well.
Speaker: 0
01:32:33
Yeah. Well sai, I mean, we have this ranch out in Kauai, and there’s invasive pigs. And we on our ranch, we have, there’s a lot of albatross. I don’t know if they’re endangered or just threatened. And then there’s the Hawaiian state bird, the, the nene goose is, that’s, I think, endangered or or at least was until recently, ai, like, most of them in the world live in a small stretch, or at least most of them on Kauai live in a small stretch that includes our ranch.
Speaker: 0
01:33:03
So you constantly have these pigs that are just, like, ai so quickly, and we basically have to apply pressure to to the population or else they just get overrun and threaten the birds and the other wildlife. And so and what I basically explained to my daughters, who I also want to learn how to do this, because I just feel like it’s like, look.
Speaker: 0
01:33:23
We we have this land. We take care of it. Just like you mow the grass, we need to make sure that these populations are in check. It’s part of what we do as, like, the stewards of this, and, we’ve gotta do it. And then if you if you have to kill something, then you should, you know, obviously, treat it with respect and, you know, use the the the meat to to make food and and, and and kind of celebrate in that way.
Speaker: 0
01:33:49
But it’s it’s a culture that Ai I think it’s it’s just an important thing for kids to grow up, understanding, like, the circle of life. Right? So, you know, teaching, like, teaching the kids all of, you know, what is is kind of, you know, how you’d run a ranch, how you’d run a farm.
Speaker: 0
01:34:04
Ai think that that stuff it’s good. I mean, because, you know, explaining to the kids what a tech company is is really abstract. Right? So for a while, my daughters were pretty convinced that my actual job was Mark’s Meats, which is our, our kind of ranch and, like, the cattle that we that we ranch.
Speaker: 0
01:34:25
I was ai, well, not ai, and you’ll learn when you get older. But, but I I think that there’s something that’s just, like, much more tangible about that than, you know, taking them to the office and, you know, sitting in product reviews or something for for some, like, piece of software that we’re writing.
Speaker: 1
01:34:41
Well, it’s certainly a lot more primal. Yeah. Yeah. And if you do wind up eating that meat from the animal and you were there while the animal died, like, you put it all together, like, oh, this is where meat comes from.
Speaker: 0
01:34:53
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:34:55
Which is another reason why things have become sort of emasculated because that energy is not necessary anymore to acquire meat. You know, that used to be the
Speaker: 0
01:35:03
only way that people
Speaker: 1
01:35:04
got meat. You had to go hunt it. So you had to go actually pull the trigger, kill the animal yourself, cut it up, butcher it, cook it. You knew what you were doing.
Speaker: 0
01:35:13
Yeah. Although ai favorite is bow, bow and arrow. Mhmm. I mean, that’s, I I think, like, the most that that feels like the most kind of sporting version of it.
Speaker: 1
01:35:22
Yeah. If you wanna put it that way. Yeah. I mean, if you’re just trying to get meat, it’s not the most effective. The most effective is certainly a ai. But, I prefer it because it’s it requires more of you.
Speaker: 0
01:35:35
Yeah. And you just kinda go and hang out and Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:35:38
And you have to be fit. Yeah. Especially if you’re mountain hunting, you have to be really fit. Yeah. You can’t just be kind of in shape. You gotta be really fit. If you wanna huff up the mountains and keep your heart rate at a certain level sai that when you get to the top, you can execute a shot calmly.
Speaker: 0
01:35:53
And then actually carry the thing out.
Speaker: 1
01:35:54
Yeah. Yeah. And carry the thing out.
Speaker: 0
01:35:56
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I I’m I mostly mostly use a rifle just because it’s so much more efficient. You know, your your conversion rate is so much ai, but it’s, but, yeah, another What kind of bow do you have? Gosh. I didn’t get to do it this saloni, but, do you
Speaker: 1
01:36:15
know the company that makes it?
Speaker: 0
01:36:17
Not off the top of my head.
Speaker: 1
01:36:18
I mean you have to know.
Speaker: 0
01:36:19
Yeah. No. This is embarrassing. This is embarrassing.
Speaker: 1
01:36:23
I can get you hooked up.
Speaker: 0
01:36:24
Yeah. Sai it works. Okay. Do you know how old it is? No. It’s it’s not old. Okay. I think it’s it’s like a just a compound bow that I got strung to my draw length and
Speaker: 1
01:36:37
Did you get someone to coach you?
Speaker: 0
01:36:39
Yeah. Yeah. Who coached you? It’s basically a bunch of the guys who who, you know, help run security around the ranch.
Speaker: 1
01:36:46
Okay. Yeah. The thing about archery is just like martial arts, one of the things that I learned when I was teaching is that it’s way easier to teach someone that knows nothing than to teach someone who learned something incorrectly. The people who learned something incorrectly. The moment, things got tense and they panicked, they went back to the old ways, because it’s sort of ingrained in their system.
Speaker: 1
01:37:10
So archery, one of the things that’s very important is proper form and then proper execution, especially having a surprise shah. And learning how to have a surprise shot is
Speaker: 0
01:37:22
What what do you mean?
Speaker: 1
01:37:23
Yeah. Sai. Ai don’t know.
Speaker: 0
01:37:25
No. See, that’s not
Speaker: 1
01:37:26
this is the thing. In high pressure situations, one of the most important things is to have, a shot process where you don’t know exactly when the arrow is going off. You just have a process where you’re pulling through the shot and the shot breaks. So it’s a surprise shot. So you put the pin on the target. Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:37:47
I use a a thumb trigger. Ai use a Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:37:49
I do too.
Speaker: 1
01:37:50
I use a thing called an onyx clicker.
Speaker: 0
01:37:52
Okay.
Speaker: 1
01:37:52
And the reason why I use the onyx clicker is like a hinge. It gives you a 2 stage of the trigger. Right? So as I’m at full draw, I put slight pressure and I hear a click. And that click means it’s ready to go off with more pressure. So I’ve gone through stage 1. Now stage 2 is just concentrating on the shot process and knowing it’s gonna break. And then there’s no flinching. There’s no speak.
Speaker: 1
01:38:16
There’s no there’s no other thing that people do when they have a a finger trigger where they they twitch because your your body is anticipating the shock of the bow. And when you’re doing that, you can be off by 6 inches, 4 inches, 5 inches, all over the place because you’re moving. You’re moving while you’re you’re shooting.
Speaker: 1
01:38:35
When you’re doing it with a rifle, it’s very different because, obviously, a ai far faster.
Speaker: 0
01:38:39
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:38:40
And then you have a scope. So you’re, you know, you’re you’re zoomed in many magnifications and all you have to do is just slowly squeeze. And if you’re smart, you’ll be prone or you’ll have your rifle rested on a tripod or something where you have a good steady. It’s much easier.
Speaker: 1
01:38:54
With a bow, it’s very different because you’re holding with your arya sai you have to have the proper form, you have to have the proper posture, and then there’s this thought process. And my friend Joel Turner who is a, sniper created a whole system for people called Ai. Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:39:09
He’s got this whole online system of developing the proper execution of a shot. When you see, like, tournament archers when they go to Vegas so what a Vegas tournament is, you have 3 targets and they have to shoot 30 arrows at a time. So they shoot 10 in this one, 10 in that one, 10 in this one. And the really good archers score an x every time.
Speaker: 1
01:39:33
So in the they’re in the center or close to the center. They’re hitting the 10 ring every arrow for 30 arrows in a row, and then there’s round after round, another 30 hours with new people, another 30 and if you miss slightly, you get a 9, that’s it. You’re done. Because all these other guys are not gonna get a 9. Very rarely will they. You know?
Speaker: 1
01:39:51
So most it’s the the most tens that you can meh, and the best way to do that is with a surprise shot. So these guys have, like, these long stabilizers on their bow where they keep it totally steady, and it’s all just about relaxing. And most of them use a hinge release. Or so a hinge you know what a hinge is? Have you ever used one? Okay. Instead of a button Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:40:12
You press it Mhmm. You’re rotating the hinge, which activates ai shield.
Speaker: 0
01:40:17
I just have a trigger.
Speaker: 1
01:40:18
Yeah. Yeah. So you’re just hammering the trigger. You’re doing exactly what you’re not supposed to do. You’re a trigger puncher. Yeah. You’re a trigger puncher.
Speaker: 0
01:40:23
With your thumb?
Speaker: 1
01:40:24
Yeah. You’re you’re hitting it with your thumb. Right? Uh-huh. Yeah. I guarantee you, when you do it, your arm doesn’t move. You go like this. Like that. Uh-huh. So with a good surprise shot, you shouldn’t know it’s gonna go off. You’re pulling. And then once the trigger breaks off, your arm will naturally go backwards because you’re not anticipating the shot.
Speaker: 0
01:40:41
I’m definitely not doing that.
Speaker: 1
01:40:42
Yeah. Sai, that’s the thing. You’re like
Speaker: 0
01:40:43
But how how far away are you shooting things from?
Speaker: 1
01:40:46
It depends. That elk out there, the photograph that’s in the front, that one Ai shah, it’s, in the front of the building when you walk in before you go into the studio. There’s a an a mounted head and then a photograph of me and my friend Ram. That one was 67 yards. I shot 1 at 79 yards once, but that’s rare.
Speaker: 1
01:41:03
Most of the time, it’s like, for me, my effective range, my like, where I’d like to be is 60 yards and in.
Speaker: 0
01:41:11
Yeah. Because I was gonna sai, I don’t think I’ve ever shot something more than 50 yards out. Yeah. It’s hard. Yeah. So so I think that
Speaker: 1
01:41:18
really, you know, real your form has to be tight. You have to be really confident. You have to have a lot of arrows down range. And then you have to be able to stay calm during the shot. So now imagine if you’re shooting something at 18 yards. Okay? And you hammer the trigger.
Speaker: 1
01:41:32
A little bit of this, a little bit of that, you’re still gonna get there. Yeah. Right? Because it’s only 18 yards. So the the amount of deviation off the path that it takes in 18 yards is significantly different than the amount of deviation a ai yards. It’s a huge gap.
Speaker: 1
01:41:46
It might be 2 feet to the right. Yeah. Meanwhile, you thought you were shooting accurately because you’re inside of, like, a pie plate at 20 yards. And the difference between that is form, technique, and a shot execution process, and also management of the psychology of the shah. Because this is one moment. Here it comes.
Speaker: 1
01:42:06
Yeah. Here it comes now.
Speaker: 0
01:42:08
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:42:08
And if you only do that once a year, like, say if you go on one big elk hunt a year, you save up all your money, you get your gear all ready, you get your arrows weighed, you practice, and then you’re in the mountains for 10 days. And on 11th day, you get this animal that moves. It’s at 57 yards and stands there, and you’re ai, your heart’s beating. You just might hammer that trigger.
Speaker: 1
01:42:30
You just might hammer it. So you have to have this shot process and where you you’re literally talking to yourself inside your head. You have words that you say that occupy your thoughts while you’re going through the shot process sai that you never get overcome by shot panic. Interesting.
Speaker: 1
01:42:48
Because target panic is a giant thing in the archery community. It’s ai. Even saying it is like saying Voldemort. It’s like, don’t say it. People don’t wanna say it.
Speaker: 1
01:42:57
It’s like saying Candyman. Like, people don’t like it because it it freaks people out. Like, the they’ll dig some people can’t keep their pin on the target. They have to keep their pin below the target and then they raise it up to the target. When it gets where the target is, they hammer the trigger because they’re just freaking out. Yeah. Have you ever experienced that?
Speaker: 0
01:43:17
I mean, I’ve missed, if that’s what you’re asking. I I haven’t analyzed it this level of detail. But no. I mean, there are a lot of bores on our ranch, so I guess Sai don’t I don’t get yeah. And, also, like, we have a range, and and we, I don’t know. We set up bowling pins and, you know, it’s like we shoot pistols at the bowling pins, but I also like just ai I I I’m usually faster at taking down all the bowling pins with a bow and arrow than most of my friends are with the pistol, which I think is is is pretty fun.
Speaker: 0
01:43:47
But yeah. No. I mean, just more casual. I’m I’m clearly not doing it at your level, and then maybe you’ve given me another, side quest to maybe go deeper on. But That’s
Speaker: 1
01:43:55
what I’m saying.
Speaker: 0
01:43:56
But Sai I’ll take you on
Speaker: 1
01:43:57
an elk hunt in the mountains. Yeah. You’ll get addicted. I sana think about I do think the dynamic
Speaker: 0
01:44:03
that you’re talking about, though, where if you only see one animal on a multi day, then, ai, that is just way higher stakes than anything that I’m doing. I mean, I’d say not everything
Speaker: 1
01:44:14
that you’re doing. Because if you’re really considering having an MMA fight, it’s very similar. Because you’re building up to this
Speaker: 0
01:44:19
one moment. Sure. I’m ai about the archery that I’m doing. Right. I mean, it’s like, I go out. It’s like, you’re gonna see some pigs, ai, like, and it’s like, if I don’t if I don’t hit any, it’s ai, my family’s still eating. It’s okay. You know? So I’m not like, you know, but Right.
Speaker: 1
01:44:32
Yeah. But if it’s like martial arts is what I’m saying. It’s like, you really should learn it the right way from the beginning.
Speaker: 0
01:44:38
You can verify I’ve clearly not learned this in a very rigorous way. I’ll hook you up. Yeah. I can get people to come in. A video on Instagram once of me, I I think, hitting bowling pins with archery. And, like, all the comments are like, man, your form is shit. So, so I think it checks out with the conversation that we’re having now.
Speaker: 1
01:44:56
Well, the the issue with that is that you’re reading the comments. Ai You should never read comments.
Speaker: 0
01:45:00
That’s fair. That’s fair.
Speaker: 1
01:45:02
I’ve never had anything good come out of reading comments.
Speaker: 0
01:45:05
Yeah. Although, I don’t know. It’s pretty funny. I think the just, like, getting the the the gist and the summary of it, I think, is is is pretty funny.
Speaker: 1
01:45:13
Yeah. It’s funny. It’s just not mentally healthy.
Speaker: 0
01:45:16
Yeah. No. You can’t spend too much time on it.
Speaker: 1
01:45:17
I don’t spend any time on it. Yeah. I’d I’m a much happier person since Ai, like, avoided comments. Yeah. It’s just too weird. You’re just delving into the world of all these people’s mental illness and screaming at people and just, Ai don’t I don’t sana anything to do with it.
Speaker: 0
01:45:31
Yeah. But, I mean, I I do read my friends’ meh, and when even they’re, like, man, that’s ugly. Like, that’s I do that.
Speaker: 1
01:45:38
I do that, and I shouldn’t do that. But I definitely don’t send them to them. Hey, bro. Did you see this?
Speaker: 0
01:45:43
Those guys are the worst.
Speaker: 1
01:45:45
Guys that’ll send things to you that are about you. You’re like, hey, man. Don’t. I’m not looking for that. Don’t send it to me. I don’t I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. Social media is it’s ai what a weird new pressure, you know. And children today are going through some bizarre stress that we’ve never had to go through before.
Speaker: 1
01:46:03
And a bizarre sort of, just disconnect from physical reality by most of your communication being electronic.
Speaker: 0
01:46:12
Yeah. And I think, you know, we basically my kids at this point are ai, 7, and, and 1a half. So we got So
Speaker: 1
01:46:20
you’re not interested in that? Or you’re not No.
Speaker: 0
01:46:22
No. I Ai would rather of
Speaker: 1
01:46:23
course, you’re interested. I mean, interested. I mean, involved. We’re very
Speaker: 0
01:46:26
focused on it. We would now. Ai think that it’s about to start getting a lot more complicated. Mhmm. I think, you know, the 9 and and 7 year old. But, I mean, just kind of deciding what technology they’re gonna use and what’s good and what’s not and Mhmm. All the dynamics around that. It’s, it’s, it’s really complicated.
Speaker: 0
01:46:45
Ai and tyler, look. I mean, I think every family has their own values in how they sana approach this. Right? So from my perspective, you know, our we have one of my daughters just, like, loves building stuff. So she clearly, like, takes after me in this way.
Speaker: 0
01:46:58
It’s ai, every day, she’s just, like, creating some random thing. It’s like she’s creating stuff with Legos and, you know, it’s like, one day it’s that or, you know, the next day it’s Minecraft. And from my perspective, it’s like, okay. I don’t know. Minecraft is actually kind of a cooler tool to build stuff than than Legos a lot of the way.
Speaker: 0
01:47:17
So it’s, you know, it’s ai I gonna say that there’s gonna there there there needs to be some kind of limit on on her screen time if if she’s doing something that’s creative, that’s maybe, like, a richer form of what she would have been doing physically? Right. In that case, probably not.
Speaker: 0
01:47:31
Now there were times when, she’d get so excited about what she was building in Minecraft or or something that she was coding in Scratch that she’d wake up early to kinda get her tablet. And that was bad, right, because then it’s, like, starting to get in the way of her sleep. And I’m like, you know, August, you you can’t do that. Right?
Speaker: 0
01:47:50
It’s like we’re gonna take your your iPad away if you’re doing that. You little psycho. Wait. Don’t get up early. No. It’s ai it’s like August.
Speaker: 0
01:47:58
I did that too when I was a kid, but trust me
Speaker: 1
01:48:01
Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:48:02
You’re gonna wanna sleep.
Speaker: 1
01:48:02
It’s not gonna lead to success meanwhile you’re on a fucking island.
Speaker: 0
01:48:05
Yeah. No. It’s yeah. It’s one
Speaker: 1
01:48:08
of the richest people in the world. Your dad like, what the fuck, dad?
Speaker: 0
01:48:12
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:48:12
Didn’t it work for you?
Speaker: 0
01:48:13
I meh, you know
Speaker: 1
01:48:14
Leave me alone, my iPad. I’m trying to figure out how to build a a mansion and
Speaker: 0
01:48:17
Yeah. My crap. It’s either gonna work or it’s gonna end badly. But Right. But it’s like but I feel like, like building stuff, I feel generally pretty good about.
Speaker: 1
01:48:27
Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:48:27
I think communication, I generally feel pretty good about the kids using. I mean, they use it to talk to their grandparents, right, or parents and
Speaker: 1
01:48:34
Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:48:34
Cousins. You know, it’s like that that type of stuff is good. Meh Messenger Kids, the thing that we built, is basically ai a messaging service that the parents can choose who can contact the kids and, like, just approve every contact. Mhmm. That’s much better than just having, like, an open texting service. Ai I don’t know, but there’s a lot of stuff that’s, like, pretty sketchy.
Speaker: 0
01:48:53
And I kinda think, like, different parents are gonna have different lines on what they want their kids to be able to do and not. Yeah. You know, so some people might not even want their kids to be able to message even with friends when they’re ai and 7. Some people might say, hey. No.
Speaker: 0
01:49:06
Minecraft, that’s just a game. I don’t think about that as building. I think that is a game. I wanna limit the time that you’re doing that. I want you to go read books instead or whatever whatever the the values are that that family has.
Speaker: 0
01:49:15
So for Meh, what we’ve kinda come to is we wanna be the most aligned with parents on giving parents the tools that they need to basically control how the experiences work for their kids. Now we don’t even really, except for, like, stuff like Meh Kids, we don’t even have our services, our apps generally available to people under the age of 13 at all.
Speaker: 0
01:49:40
Sai mean, our kids, I haven’t had to, like, have the conversation about when when they get Instagram or Facebook or any of that stuff. But, but when they turn 13, we basically want parents to be able to have complete control over the kids’ experience. And that’s you know, we just rolled out this Instagram ram thing, which is it’s a set of of controls where, you know, it’s if you if you’re an older teen, we’ll just default you into the private experience.
Speaker: 0
01:50:03
That way, you’re not getting, like, harassed or bombarded with stuff. And, but if you’re a younger teen, then you have to get your parents’ permission, and and they actually have to, like, sign in and and do all the stuff in order to make it so that you can connect with people who are beyond your network or, if you wanna ai be a public figure, like, all all these different kinds of things.
Speaker: 0
01:50:24
So I think that that’s probably, from a values perspective, where we should be is just trying to, like, be an ally of parents. But but it is complicated stuff. I mean, it’s every family wants to do it differently.
Speaker: 1
01:50:36
It is complicated, and there’s also this dismissal of activities that are done electronically as not being beneficial. And one of the things that we highlighted recently was a study that we found online that showed that surgeons that play video games
Speaker: 0
01:50:49
Oh, yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:50:50
Make far less mistakes.
Speaker: 0
01:50:52
Interesting. Yeah. Well, the people who do the training in VR definitely make less mistakes.
Speaker: 1
01:50:56
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, that is, to me Yeah. One of the most fascinating aspects of technology today. You know, when you and I were doing that, game or fencing with each other, I’m like, this could be applied to so many different things now. It’s like the there’s so many opportunities, not just for just pure recreation, but education. There’s so many things you could learn skills through AR or VR Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:51:24
That it you’re it’s it’ll greatly enhance your ability to do those things in the real world. I mean, it’s a it’s a real it’s kind of a cheat code in a lot of ways. And it’s also games in VR. I I don’t know if you ever done sandbox. You ever do sandbox?
Speaker: 0
01:51:40
Which
Speaker: 1
01:51:40
You know sandbox VR? Do you know what that company is?
Speaker: 0
01:51:42
Yeah. You go
Speaker: 1
01:51:43
to a warehouse, you put on a haptic feedback test. Yeah. You shoot zombies. Shah. I’m so addicted. I’m so addicted. It is my favorite thing. There’s a thing called Deadwood Mansion. It’s the most fun game of all time by far. You have a shah, and there’s zombies coming at you.
Speaker: 1
01:51:59
I want you
Speaker: 0
01:51:59
to catch me. My my zombie game is Arizona Sunshine.
Speaker: 1
01:52:02
Oh, is that one?
Speaker: 0
01:52:03
Oh, it’s it’s you just ai it’s can be multiplayer, and there’s horde mode where you just get in there, and they’re, like, 4 friends, and there’s just, like, waves of zombies come, and you’re killing them all.
Speaker: 1
01:52:14
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I have to try it. Yeah. I haven’t tried that one yet.
Speaker: 0
01:52:17
That’s my it’s very therapeutic. Ai just wait until they come meh point blank range.
Speaker: 1
01:52:22
How long before you guys develop some sort of a haptic feedback suit where, like, it covers the whole body?
Speaker: 0
01:52:27
Oh, man. Is that possible? It’s possible. I think that there’s other things that are probably more important to deliver. Sai, I guess, taking a step back. A lot of how we think about the goal here is delivering, like, a realistic sense of presence. Right? No technology today gives you the feeling as if you’re, like, physically there with another person. Right? You’re you’re, like, interacting with them through a phone.
Speaker: 0
01:52:55
You have this, like, little window. It’s kinda taking you away from everything. And that’s, like, the magic of augmented and virtual reality is, like, you actually feel this, like, presence. Like, you’re there with another person.
Speaker: 1
01:53:06
And Right.
Speaker: 0
01:53:06
So the question is, okay. How do you do that? And it’s ai there’s, like, a million things that that contribute to that. I mean, obviously, first, just being able to look around and have the the room sai. Getting good spatial audio. Right? If someone speaks, then it should give the audio need it needs to be 3 d and come from the place where they’re speaking.
Speaker: 0
01:53:25
It’s actually it’s very interesting which things end up being important for the this kind of creating the sense of presence and which don’t. So having hands, obviously, if you’re just looking around, but you can’t actually, like, move things, that that that breaks the illusion.
Speaker: 0
01:53:42
But having hands, like, hand tracking that you can do stuff is important. One thing that we found that’s kinda funny is it’s actually not that important that you see your arms. You just need to see your hands. Obviously, seeing your arms is a bonus unless we incorrectly interpolate where your elbows are or something.
Speaker: 0
01:54:00
So if we have if we’re looking at your hand or we if we have a controller, we can know, okay. Your hand is here. But that doesn’t necessarily tell us where your elbow is. So your ai could be like this. It could be like this.
Speaker: 0
01:54:10
So we can kinda guess from the but if we get that wrong and you, like, see in VR, it’s ai, you see the hand there and your elbow is ai looks like it’s here when it’s actually out there. You’re like, sai, what what’s going on? Like, that’s messed up. So it’s a lot of these things. Like, you just don’t wanna get these details wrong.
Speaker: 0
01:54:27
So haptics, the most important first thing for haptics is on the hand. Right? I mean, we have so many more, the neurons, basically, and or, not neurons, but just ai the the like, sensation. It’s it’s, like, such higher resolution, on your on your fingertips than anywhere else in the body.
Speaker: 0
01:54:46
So, you know, when you grab something, you know, making it so that you feel some pushback. Right? When you there’s a lot of gaming systems at this point where if you, like, pull a trigger, you get, like, a little bit of a rumble or something. We built this one thing
Speaker: 1
01:55:01
where it’s
Speaker: 0
01:55:01
ai a ping pong paddle with a sensor in it, and it you you feel the ball hit like, the virtual ball hitting the ping pong paddle. Mhmm. And it feels like like, when you’re actually playing ping pong, it doesn’t it’s not like a generic thing where it just, like, you feel it hit the paddle.
Speaker: 0
01:55:19
You feel where it hits the paddle. Mhmm. Then we basically built a system where now with this, like, physical paddle, you can kind of it the the haptics make it so you can feel where the ball hits the paddle. Oh. So it’s ai all these things, like, are just going towards delivering a more realistic experience. So full body haptics.
Speaker: 0
01:55:41
So there are some things that I think it could do. Like, if you get if you’re playing a boxing game, you get punched in the stomach, you can probably simulate something like that a little. It’s not gonna be able to deliver that much force. So, I mean, I guess that’s maybe a good thing because no one wants to get Right.
Speaker: 0
01:56:03
Punched in the stomach that hard. But but, like, it’s not gonna be able to deliver enough force for you to for example, let’s say you’re not just boxing, you’re kickboxing. Like, I don’t know. You need something on the other side to be able to complete it. Right?
Speaker: 0
01:56:19
Because it it’s like when you kick, when you when you’re, when you’re just practicing, it’s like you you you spin. Right? Because you don’t wanna just, like, stop. And it’s, you know, it’s ai like the the shadowing of kick. Like, there’s not gonna be anything that you can do as, like, a, you know, single person playing VR with a haptic suit that, like, makes it so that you’re gonna be able to kick someone who’s not there physically and actually be able to do that.
Speaker: 0
01:56:44
Right. So, like, grappling, it’s ai I I don’t I think that that like, jujitsu is gonna be the last thing that we’re able to do in in in VR because you, like, need the momentum of the other person and to be able to move them.
Speaker: 1
01:56:54
The boxing thing is actually good. Boxing works.
Speaker: 0
01:56:57
Yeah. Yeah. Boxing works. Even and you don’t really need the haptics. I think it would be better with it. That’s probably one of the better cases. I think it’s that and getting shot or, like, sword fighting type stuff.
Speaker: 1
01:57:08
Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
01:57:09
So you can, like, just feel feel it on your body. But Ai don’t know. I I think what’s basically gonna end up happening is you’re gonna have, like, a home setup for these things, and then you’re gonna have there are these, like, location based services where, like, people, it’s almost like a theme park where you can go into, and it can and you can have, like, a a really immersive VR experience where it’s not just that you get, like, a a vest that can simulate some haptics.
Speaker: 0
01:57:36
It’s that you’re also, like, in a real physical ai. So they can, like, have smoke come out or something, and you can smell that and feel that or, like, spray some water and it feels humid. And, I think that it it still is gonna be a while before you can just, like, virtually create all those sensations.
Speaker: 0
01:57:53
Sai I think a lot of those really rich experiences are gonna be in these very constructed environments.
Speaker: 1
01:57:58
Is the bridge when they figure out some sort of a neural interface? So instead of having these extraneous things, instead instead of having, like, a fan blowing at you or, you know, the ground moves a little bit, have everything happen inside your head.
Speaker: 0
01:58:16
Well, you know, in terms of neural interfaces, there are two approaches to the problem, roughly. Right? There’s the ai of jacket into your brain neural interface, and then there’s the risk based neural interface thing that, you know, we we showed you for Orion, the smart
Speaker: 1
01:58:31
glasses. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:58:32
And I I would guess that, you know, I think it’s gonna be a while before, we’re really widely deploying anything that jacks into your brain. I think that there are a lot of people who don’t wanna be the early adopters of that technology. You wanna, like, wait until that’s pretty mature before you get that.
Speaker: 1
01:58:48
For sure.
Speaker: 0
01:58:48
I mean, for and that’s basically gonna get started in medical use cases. Right? So if someone, like, loses sensation part of their body, and now you have the ability to fix that.
Speaker: 1
01:58:57
Like the first Neurolink patient.
Speaker: 0
01:58:59
Yeah. So I Ai think you’ll basically start with people who have pretty severe conditions, who the upside is very significant before you start, like, jacking people into play games better. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:59:10
Right.
Speaker: 0
01:59:11
But a risk based thing, I mean, that’s something I mean, like, people wear stuff on their wrist all the time. Right? So, and what we basically found there, that doesn’t do input to you, but it’s good for giving you the ability to control a computer. Because, basically, you have all these extra neurons that go from your brain to controlling your hand. Your hand is, like, super complicated.
Speaker: 0
01:59:33
And there’s actually all these extra pathways, because for for a bunch of ai. Neuroplasticity in case you, like, lose the ability to use one, they wanna be able to have others. So you sana the redundancy because being able to use your hand is super important. So in normal use, we’ve kind of all figured out some patterns of how we send signals from our brain to our hand.
Speaker: 0
01:59:56
And, Ai mean, the reality is there’s, like, all these other patterns too that are unused today. So you can put a wristband on your wrist that can measure activity across these neurons. And today, we’re starting by basically measuring as you’re doing as you’re, like, moving your fingers.
Speaker: 0
02:00:12
But over a few versions of this we’re gonna get to is, like, you won’t actually even have to move your hand. You’ll just, like, trigger these neurons in opposing ways. It’s ai, you probably can’t see right now. It’s like I’m kinda flexing something in this finger and something here.
Speaker: 0
02:00:28
So, like, it’s not actually moving, but there’s some signal that the neural interface wristband, if I were wearing it, could pick up. And I just think we’re gonna be we’re gonna, like, have glasses, and we’re gonna be able to be here. And I’m, like, gonna be able to, like, you know, text my wife or friends or something or text AI and, like, get an answer to something.
Speaker: 0
02:00:48
It’s like, I forgot something while we were talking. Let me just text AI. Okay. I just did that. It’s, like, did
Speaker: 1
02:00:52
you do it in a way? Sitting there without anyone even looking at your way.
Speaker: 0
02:00:56
And you have glasses and, like, the answer just comes into your glasses. I mean, for me, one of the one of the positive things when when COVID hit, everyone in software basically started working remotely for a while, because you can. Right? Software. It’s like, okay. Whatever. You don’t have to be in the office. You can you can kinda be in different places.
Speaker: 0
02:01:15
And a lot of the meetings went on to Zoom. And one of the best things about that, was basically you you were able to politely have all these side conversations. Right? So it’s like when you’re seeing someone in person, it would be super rude if I, like, pulled out my phone and, like, just started texting someone.
Speaker: 0
02:01:33
It would just be really weird. Right? Yeah. But when you’re, like, talking to someone online, it’s ai I don’t know. I guess, because they either can’t tell your attention because it’s, like because there’s not good presence or if it’s just the norm.
Speaker: 0
02:01:44
But they’re ai you have, like, the main group conversation. And then I was like, at least the norm for me was Ai could just, like, text different people on the side. It’s like, okay. What do you think at this point that this person is making in this meeting? Right.
Speaker: 0
02:01:57
Like, in normal life, it’s like, oftentimes, I’d have, you know, some discussion that Ai have to, like, sync up with people afterwards about how’d that go. But now it’s ai, I could just do that all at the same time. Right? It’s like you’re having the group discussion, and you’re having the conversations with the people about the discussion that you’re having in real time.
Speaker: 0
02:02:12
But you can only do that over Zoom. So I think being able to do that in ai of physical interactions, where you’re just, like, you’re interacting with people, and you can just, like, use an AI augmentation to be able to get extra context or help help you think through something, or remember something, just to be able to kind of have a better conversation, be able to, you know, not have to follow-up on something after the fact.
Speaker: 0
02:02:37
I I think, like, it’s gonna be super useful for for all these different things.
Speaker: 1
02:02:41
Well, it certainly can be, but I think that also opens up the opportunity for people to be even more disconnected. Because if you’re sort of connected to other things while you’re physically in the presence of someone so So you’re having a conversation with someone, but you’re also, like, searching, like, where you wanna eat that ai.
Speaker: 1
02:02:57
Uh-huh. You know, like because people are gonna use it for that as well.
Speaker: 0
02:03:00
Yeah. You know, I actually think it’ll be a lot better on that. Because right now yeah. Because Sai mean, right now, we have our phones, but we’re, like you know, it’s ai you’re like, it it takes you away from, like, the physical environment around you. Mhmm. You’re you’re kinda, like, sucked into this little screen.
Speaker: 0
02:03:13
I think now in the future, our computing platform as it becomes more of, like, a glasses or eventually contact lens form factor is you’re gonna actually the the Internet is gonna get overlaid on the physical world. So it’s not like we have the physical world, and now I have all my digital stuff through this tiny little window. In the future, it’ll be, okay.
Speaker: 0
02:03:35
All my attention goes to the world. The world consists of physical things and virtual things that are overlaid on it. Mhmm. You know, so if we wanted to, you know, play poker or something, you know, it’s a, you know, we could have a physical deck of cards, or we could just have a virtual kind of hologram deck of cards and snap your hands.
Speaker: 0
02:03:53
Here’s the deck of cards. And, like, our friend who can’t be here physically, like, he’s here as a hologram, but he can play with the the the kind of digital deck of cards. Also, I think, you know, let’s say you’re, like, doing something at work. You’re working on a project. I think in the future, we’ll have AI coworkers.
Speaker: 0
02:04:08
Those people won’t even they’re they’re not even people. They won’t be able to be embodied. So if you’re having a physical meeting, you’re sitting around with a bunch of people, they couldn’t show up, as as, like, you know, part of the team no matter what. But I I think, like, we’ll get to a point where just like your friend can show up in a hologram, and, like, your your AI colleagues will be able to also.
Speaker: 0
02:04:28
So I I think, like, we’ll basically be in this wild world where it’s ai like, most of the world will be physical, but there’ll be this increasing amount of, like, virtual objects or people who are kinda beaming in or, like, ram into different things to interact in different ways.
Speaker: 0
02:04:43
And, I actually think that natural blending of the kind of digital world and the physical is way more natural than the segmentation that we have today where it’s like, you’re in the physical world, and now I’m just gonna go tune it out to look at my my, like, I’m gonna access the whole digital universe through this, like, 5 inch screen.
Speaker: 1
02:05:03
Right.
Speaker: 0
02:05:03
So I don’t know. It’s just it seems natural to me. It’s ai that’s this is the world. There isn’t, like, a physical world and a digital world anymore. We’re in, you know, 2025. It’s one world. Like, these these things should get blended.
Speaker: 1
02:05:14
God, that’s such a weird concept, but it’s true. I mean, that’s where we’re headed. We’re certainly headed into deeper and deeper integration. It’s not like things are moving away. You know, we’re we’re headed to deeper and deeper integration with technology and Ai. And it’s inevitable, you know?
Speaker: 1
02:05:30
It seems like it’s just it’s on this march, and there’s not a lot we’re gonna be able to do to stop that march. Just we gotta hope that the right people are in control of AI when it becomes God.
Speaker: 0
02:05:41
Or that it becomes widely available. I mean, I I kind of liked the the theory that it’s only God if only ai of, like, one company or government controls it. Right? It’s like if if you were the only person who had access to a computer and the Internet, you would have this, like, inhuman power that everyone else didn’t have because you could use Google, and you could, like Right.
Speaker: 0
02:06:04
Get access to all this stuff. But the but then when everyone has it, it, it makes us all better, but it’s also, like, kind of an even playing field. So that’s kind of what we’re going for with this whole open source thing is Ai just, like I don’t think that there’s gonna be, like, one AI.
Speaker: 0
02:06:22
I certainly don’t think that there should be one company that controls AI. I think you, like, want there to be a diversity of different things and a diversity of people creating different, different things with it. I mean, some of it will be kinda serious and helping you think through things.
Speaker: 0
02:06:37
I think, like, with anything on the Internet, a lot of it is just gonna be funny and, like, fun and content, and people are gonna create agents that are, like like, AIs that are entertaining, and they’ll pass them around almost like content where it’s, like, just ai you you pass ai, like, a reel or a video, and you’re like, this thing is fun.
Speaker: 0
02:06:53
Like, in the future, ai a like a video, it’s not interactive. You know, you you watch it, and you’re consuming it. But I think a lot of more entertainment in the future will be inherently interactive where someone will kind of sculpt an experience or an AI, and then they’ll show show someone.
Speaker: 0
02:07:07
It’s like, oh, this is funny. But, like, it’s not necessarily they’re gonna interact with that AI every day. It’s like, okay. It’s funny for 5 minutes, and then you pass it along to your friends. And, so I don’t know.
Speaker: 0
02:07:16
I think I think you like I think you want the world to have all these different things. And I think that’s probably also, from my perspective, the best way to make sure that it doesn’t get out of control is to make it sai that it’s pretty equally distributed.
Speaker: 1
02:07:33
I think the the problem that people have with it is not even whether or not it gets equally distributed. It’s that if it becomes sentient and it goes on its own. The the the fear that people have, the general fear that we’re gonna become obsolete is that human beings are essentially creating a superior version of higher intelligence that will be powered by quantum computing and connected to nuclear reactors, and it’s gonna have, like, this ungodly ability to
Speaker: 0
02:08:05
well, first
Speaker: 1
02:08:05
of all, they’ve already shown that, AI has learned to code. I mean, this is one of the things that OpenAI said that they’re Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s they’re learning how to code their own AI. Uh-huh.
Speaker: 0
02:08:16
I think this year, probably in 2025, we at Meh, as well as the other companies that are basically working on this, are gonna have an AI that can effectively be a sort of mid level engineer that you have at your company that can write code. Mhmm. And once you have that, then in the beginning, it’ll be really expensive to run, and then you can get it to be more efficient.
Speaker: 0
02:08:42
And then over time, we’ll get to the point where a lot of the code in our apps and and including the AI that we generate is actually gonna be built by AI engineers instead of people engineers. But but I don’t know. I I think that that’ll augment the people working on it. So in my my view on this is, like, the future, people are just gonna be so much more creative, and they’re gonna be freed up to do kinda crazy things.
Speaker: 0
02:09:04
Goes back to you know, my daughter was, like, playing with LEGOs before, and Mhmm. They kinda ran out of LEGOs. And then now she can have Minecraft and can build whatever she wants, and it’s so much better. Just like I think it’s the future versions of this stuff
Speaker: 1
02:09:17
are just gonna
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02:09:18
be wild.
Speaker: 1
02:09:18
But Unquestionably. Yeah. Another concern that people have is that it’s gonna eliminate a lot of jobs. Yeah. You know? What do
Speaker: 0
02:09:24
you think about that? Well, I I think it’s too it’s too early to know exactly how it plays out. But my guess is that it’ll probably create more creative jobs than it well, I I guess if you look at the history of all this stuff Mhmm. My my understanding is, like, a 100 years ago.
Speaker: 0
02:09:46
In ai I don’t know if this is a 100 or a 150 years ago, but it was, like, at some point, not too far arya, in in the grand scheme of things. Like, the vast majority of people in society were farmers. Right? Because they kinda needed to be in order to create enough food for for everyone to survive.
Speaker: 0
02:10:03
And then we turned that into a in, like, an industrial process, And now it’s, like, 2% of society are farmers, and we get all the food that we need. So what did that free up everyone else to do? Well, some of them went on to do other things that are sort of, like, creative pursuits or cultural pursuits or other jobs, and then some percent of it just went towards recreation.
Speaker: 0
02:10:28
Right? So I think, generally, people just don’t work as many hours, today as they did when back when everyone needed to farm in order to have enough food for everyone to survive. So I think that trend is sort of played out as technology has grown. And so my guess is that, like, the percent of people who will be doing stuff that’s, like, physically required for humanity to survive will get to be smaller and smaller as it has.
Speaker: 0
02:10:56
More people will dedicate themselves to ai of creative and artistic and cultural pursuits. I think that’s generally good. I think the number of hours in a week that someone will have to work in order to be able to get by will probably continue to shrink. Meh, I think people who are super engaged in what they do are going to be able to work really hard and accomplish way more than they ever could before, because they have, like, this unimaginable leverage from from having a lot more technology.
Speaker: 0
02:11:24
So I think that that, if you just, like, fast forwarded or extrapolated out the hit the historical technological trend is what you’d get. I think the question is what you raised, which is, is this qualitatively a different type of thing that somehow, obsolets people? But I I just think when you’re asking that, it’s just important to remind ourselves that, like, at every step along the way of human progress and technology, people thought that the technology that we were developing was gonna obsolete people.
Speaker: 0
02:11:57
So maybe this ai, it’s really different. But I would guess that what’ll happen is that the technology will get integrated into, like, everything that we do, which again is why I think it’s really important that it’s open source, and that it’s widely available. So that way, it’s not just, like, one company or one government ai monopolizing the whole thing.
Speaker: 0
02:12:14
And I guess that if we do it in that way, we’ll all just kind of have superpowers is my is my guess, rather than it it sort of creating some kind of a runaway thing. Ai mean, it’s well, one of the things I think has been interesting, this is maybe going in a somewhat different direction than than what you’re asking, not or a different take on the question, is I think one of the more interesting philosophical findings from the work in AI so far ai, I think, people conflate a number of factors into what makes a person a person.
Speaker: 0
02:12:54
So there’s intelligence. There’s will. There’s consciousness, and, like, I think we kind of think about those three things as as if they’re somehow all the same. Right? It’s like if you’re intelligent, then you must also have a, like, a goal for what you’re trying to do, or you must have some sort of consciousness.
Speaker: 0
02:13:18
But I think, like, one of the crazier sort of philosophical results from the fact that, okay, you have, like, Meh Sai or Chat GPT today, and it’s just kinda sitting there, and you can ask it a question and deploy, like, a ton of intelligence to answer a question, and then it just kinda shuts itself down.
Speaker: 0
02:13:35
Like, that’s intelligence that is just sitting there without either having a will or consciousness.
Speaker: 1
02:13:41
Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
02:13:42
And, like, I just think it’s not a super obvious result that that would be the case. But I think that a lot of people, they anthropomorphize this stuff. And when you’re thinking about kind of science fiction, you think that, okay, you’re gonna get to something that’s, like, super smart.
Speaker: 0
02:13:58
It’s gonna, like, want something or, like, be able to feel. And
Speaker: 1
02:14:03
Well, you know that chatgpt tried to copy itself when it found out it was being shut down, tried to rewrite its code.
Speaker: 0
02:14:10
I I’m not sure what this is. What is this?
Speaker: 1
02:14:13
You weren’t aware of that? Yeah. Fairly recently. Jamie pulled it up. We talked about it the other day. It was shah, when it was under the impression that it was going to become obsolete, they were gonna have a new version of it, and it would be shut down. It tried copying its code, and it tried rewriting its code, ai, unprompted. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:14:35
I mean, it depends on what goal you give it. I mean, there are there are all these weird examples of this.
Speaker: 1
02:14:39
What is this? So pull up the ai the the headline. Ai fights back, the story of chat gpt attempting to copy itself. So this is 6 days ago. So, during controlled safety testing, chat gbt01 was tasked with achieving these objectives at all costs. Under these conditions, the model allegedly took concerning steps, attempted to disable oversight mechanisms meant to regulate its behavior, tried to replicate its own code to avoid being replaced by newer versions, exhibited deceptive behaviors when monitoring systems intervened.
Speaker: 1
02:15:10
Yeah. So Determinator. This is the fear. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:15:16
I mean I think you need to be careful with with these things, ai, what guardrails you give it. If you if you’re telling it, like At
Speaker: 1
02:15:22
all costs.
Speaker: 0
02:15:22
At all costs Right. Then, I mean
Speaker: 1
02:15:24
But this is what we’re people arya terrified of. Like, that a a foreign superpower like China is gonna sana, achieve objectives at all costs.
Speaker: 0
02:15:31
Yeah. Although, the thing about so these reasoning models right? So there’s, like, the the first generation of models, the they’re LLMs. Right? That’s what you think of as, like, ChatGPD or Meta Ai or, like, the 2 most used ones. And, that’s basically it’s sort of like a chatbot. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:15:47
You ask it a question. It takes the prompt. It gives you a response. Now these the next generation of reasoning models are basically, instead of just having one response, they now are able to build out, like, a whole tree of how they would they would respond. So you give it a question, and it instead of running one query, it’s sort of maybe it’s running a 1,000 queries or a 1,000,000 queries to kinda map out who are the things that I could do.
Speaker: 0
02:16:17
And if I do that, then here’s what I could do next. So it’s a lot more kind of expensive to run, but also gets you better reasoning and is is more intelligent. That stuff, I think you do need to be very careful about how you how you like, what the guardrails are that you give it.
Speaker: 1
02:16:34
Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
02:16:35
But it’s also, I think, the case that, at least for the next, you know, period, it’s gonna take a lot of compute to run those models and do a lot of the stuff that they’re talking about. So I don’t know. I I think one of the interesting questions is, like, how much of this are you gonna actually be able to do on a pair of glasses or on a phone versus is, like, a government or a company that has, like, a whole data center sana be able to do?
Speaker: 0
02:16:59
And that’ll I mean, it’ll always get efficient. So, you know, it’s ai you can start doing something, and then maybe the next year, you can do it 10 times more efficiently. But but that’s certainly the next set of things that needs to get worked on in the industry, making sure that goes well.
Speaker: 1
02:17:15
Yeah. And then what if that gets attached to quantum computing?
Speaker: 0
02:17:21
I’m not really an expert on quantum computing. My understanding is that’s still quite a ways off ram being a, like, a a very useful paradigm. I think Google just had some breakthrough, but I I think most people still think that’s, like, a decade plus out. So my guess is we’re gonna have pretty smart AIs even, even before that. But yeah. I mean look.
Speaker: 0
02:17:47
I mean, I I think that this stuff has to get it needs to be developed thoughtfully. Right? But but I don’t know. I I still think we’re we’re generally just gonna be better off in a world where this is, like, deployed pretty evenly and, you know, it’s I guess here’s another analogy that I think about.
Speaker: 0
02:18:06
There’s, like, bugs and security holes in basically every software, every piece of software that everyone uses. So if you could go back in time a few years, knowing the security holes that we’re now aware of, you as an individual could basically, like, break into any system.
Speaker: 0
02:18:23
Ai will be able to do that too. It’ll be able to probe and find exploits. So what’s the way to prevent AI from going kind of nuts? I I think part of it is just having AI widely deployed so that way, like, the AI for one system defends itself against the AI that, like, is is potentially doing something problematic in another system.
Speaker: 0
02:18:44
I think it’s like AI wars. That’s not wars. I think it’s just like It’s That’s not wars. I think it’s just like it’s, I don’t know. It’s I think it’s a very it’s sort of like why there are guns. Right? It’s like because, I mean, there’s Boy. Like, part of it is hunting. Wars.
Speaker: 1
02:19:01
Part of
Speaker: 0
02:19:01
it is hunting. No. No. Ai. And and part of it is, ai, the people can defend each other. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s
Speaker: 1
02:19:07
so And it’s a virus software.
Speaker: 0
02:19:09
Yeah. It’s ai, I don’t I don’t think you wanna live in a world where, like, only one person has all the guns.
Speaker: 1
02:19:15
Yes. You ai don’t sana live in a world where only the government has the AI.
Speaker: 0
02:19:19
Yeah. Yeah. And especially not a world where only a government has the AI and it’s not our government. Yes. So Yes. Which, I mean, I think is is part of the issue is, like, when people talk about trying to lock this stuff down, like, I just am skeptical that that’s even possible.
Speaker: 0
02:19:35
I mean, because I kind of think, like, if we try to lock it down, then we’re gonna be in a position where the only people who are gonna have access to it are the big companies working on it and the Chinese government that steals it from them.
Speaker: 1
02:19:45
Yes.
Speaker: 0
02:19:46
So I I kinda just think, like, no. What you sana do is, like, get this to be open source, have it widely available. Yeah. Some, like, adversaries might also have access to it, but the way that you defend against that is by having it built into all these different systems.
Speaker: 1
02:19:59
I think that’s a realistic pragmatic perspective because I don’t think you can contain it at this point. I think it’s far too late, especially when other countries are working on it. It’s far too late. It’s, it is what it is. It’s happening. And, I think the guardrails, as you said, are really important. I have to pee so bad.
Speaker: 1
02:20:15
So let’s pee and come back because I wanna talk about a couple other things. Yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:20:18
Sure. Be right back, folks.
Speaker: 1
02:20:20
Sai one of the things that I wanna talk about was, I’ve been doing this thing, this transition from Apple to Android. Mhmm. And the difficulty of doing it, how locked you are in their ecosystem, partly, is because Apple does a really good job of incorporating everything and making it very easy, your photos, your calendar, your this, your that, your Ai.
Speaker: 1
02:20:39
But I don’t like being attached to one company like that. It drives me crazy. And when I’m trying to get off it’s it’s funny how many people you I mean, they’ve done an insane job because, like, I think there’s some enormous percentage of kids today that only use ai. You know. And when you try to switch over to Android, it’s it’s so much easier to switch from Android to Apple because so many people have Apple.
Speaker: 1
02:21:03
When you switch from Apple to Android, you kinda have to, like, redo your whole system. Mhmm. It’s such a pain in the ass, But there’s so much of what Apple does that I don’t like. And one of the big ones is the way they do that Apple store, the way they they charge people 30%.
Speaker: 1
02:21:19
But that seems so insane that they can get away with doing that. And I know
Speaker: 0
02:21:25
I have some opinions about this. I know
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02:21:26
you do. That’s why I brought it up.
Speaker: 0
02:21:28
Yeah. No. I I I mean, look, the iPhone is obviously one of the most important inventions probably of all time. You know, Steve Jobs came out with it in 2007. I started Facebook in 2004. So he was working on the iPhone while I was getting started with Facebook. So I I basically you know, one of my one of the things that’s been interesting in my 20 years of running the company is that Ai I basically like, the the dominant platform out there is smartphones.
Speaker: 0
02:22:03
On the one hand, it’s been great for us because we are able to build these tools that everyone can have in their pocket. And there’s, like, 4,000,000,000 people who use the different apps that we use, and it’s like, I’m grateful that that platform exists. But we didn’t play any role in in basically building that, those phones, because, I mean, it was kinda getting worked on while I was, you know, still just trying to make the first website that I was making into a thing.
Speaker: 0
02:22:28
And, on the one hand, it’s been great, because, you know, now pretty much everyone in the world has a phone, and that’s a kind of it enables pretty amazing things. But on the other hand, like you’re saying, they have used that platform to put in place a lot of rules that I think it feel arbitrary and feel like, you know, they haven’t really invented anything great in a while.
Speaker: 0
02:22:56
And it’s like Steve Jobs invented the the ai, and now they’re just kinda sitting on it 20 years later. And, you you know, they actually I think year over year, I’m not even sure they’re selling more iPhones at this point. I think, like, the sales might actually be declining. And part of it is that each generation doesn’t actually get that much better.
Speaker: 0
02:23:17
So people are just taking longer to upgrade than they would before. So the number of sales, I think, is is generally been flat to declining. So how arya they making more money as a company? Well, they do it by basically, like, squeezing people. And, like you’re saying, like, having this 30% tax on developers, by getting you to buy more peripherals and things that plug into it.
Speaker: 0
02:23:40
You know, they build stuff like AirPods, which are cool, but they’ve just thoroughly hamstrung the ability for anyone else to build something that can connect to the iPhone in the same way. So, I mean, there are a lot of other companies in the world that would be able to build, like, a very good earbud, But it just, Apple has a specific protocol that they’ve built into the iPhone that allows AirPods to basically connect to it, and and it’s just much more seamless, because they’ve enabled that.
Speaker: 0
02:24:21
But they don’t let anyone else use the protocol. If they did, there would probably be much better competitors to AirPods out there. And, and whenever you push on this, they get super touchy, and they they basically wrap their defense of it in well, if we let other companies plug into our thing, then that would violate people’s privacy and security.
Speaker: 0
02:24:40
It’s, like, ai. Just do a better job designing the protocol. Right? I mean, we have, you know, we basically ask them for the Ray Ban meh glasses that we built. Can we basically use the protocol they use for for AirPod and and and some of these other things to just make it so we can as easily connect.
Speaker: 0
02:24:58
So it’s it’s not ai, you know, a pain in the ass for people who wanna use this. And, you know, it’s a they they ai, I think one of the protocols they’ve used, that they built, they basically didn’t encrypt it. So it’s ai plain text. And they’re ai, well, we can’t have you plug into it because it would be insecure.
Speaker: 0
02:25:18
It’s ai, it’s insecure because you didn’t build any security into it, and then now you’re using that as a justification for why only your product can connect in in in an easy way. It’s like the the whole thing is kind of wild. And I’m pretty optimistic that just because they’ve been so off their game in terms of not really releasing many innovative things, eventually I mean, the good news about the tech industry is it’s, like, it’s just super dynamic, and things are constantly getting invented.
Speaker: 0
02:25:48
And I think companies if you just don’t do a good job for, like, 10 years, eventually, you’re just gonna get beat by someone. But Ai don’t know. I mean, at some point, I did this, like, back of the envelope calculation of, like, all the random rules that Apple puts out. If, you know, if they didn’t ai, like, I think you know, it’s ai and this is just meh. I think we’d, like, make twice as much profit or something.
Speaker: 0
02:26:15
And and that’s just us. I mean, it’s like all these small companies that, like, probably can’t even exist because of the taxes that they put in place. So, yeah, I I I think it’s a it’s a big issue. I I wish that they would just kinda get back to building good things and not having their ability to compete be connected to just, like, advantaging their stuff.
Speaker: 0
02:26:38
Because I’m pretty sure what they’re gonna do is, like, they’re gonna take something like this Ray Ban meta, you know, category that we’ve kind of created with Ray Ban and the the company that built that. They’re, like, the the really great AI glasses. And I’m pretty sure Apple’s just gonna, like, try to build a version of that, but then just, like, advantage how it connects to the phone and
Speaker: 1
02:27:00
Well, they did that with their AR goggle thing, but it’s not very successful.
Speaker: 0
02:27:05
No. That one, they didn’t actually connect into the rest of their ecosystem. But, I mean, look. I mean, they shipped something for $35100 that I think is worse than the thing that we shipped for $300 or $400. Sai, I mean, that clearly was not gonna work very well. Now, I mean, look. I mean, they’re a good technology company.
Speaker: 0
02:27:23
I think their their, their saloni and third version will probably be better than their first version. But, yeah, no. I think, the the the Vision Pro is, I think, one of the bigger swings at doing a new thing that they ai in a while. And, you know, I I I don’t I don’t wanna give them too hard of a time on it, because we do a lot of things where the first version isn’t that good.
Speaker: 0
02:27:48
You wanna kinda judge the 3rd version of it. But, I mean, the v one, it definitely did not hit it out of the park.
Speaker: 1
02:27:52
I heard it’s really good for watching movies.
Speaker: 0
02:27:55
Well, it’s it’s the the whole thing is it’s got a super sharp screen.
Speaker: 1
02:27:58
Mhmm.
Speaker: 0
02:27:59
So if you’re yeah. So if you wanna basically have a, an experience where you’re not moving around much in VR, you just wanna have the sharpest screen, then for that one use case, I think the Vision Pro is better than Quest, which is our our mixed reality headset. But in order to get to that, they had to make all these other trade offs. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:28:23
In order to have a super high resolution screen, they had to put in all this more compute in order to power the ai res screen. And then all that compute needed a bigger battery, so now the thing is really heavy. So now it’s uncomfortable to wear. And, and then, like, because of the screen that they chose, as you move your head, which you would if you’re actually interacting, if you’re playing games, like, the the the kind of image blurs a bit, and that’s kind of annoying.
Speaker: 0
02:28:48
So you wouldn’t so it’s actually worse for things where you’re moving around in. But no. For the if you’re gonna sit, if you’re, like, on a flight and you wanna have a $35100 device that you use to to to watch videos, VisionPRO is better for that use case.
Speaker: 1
02:29:04
They’re really good at keeping you in their walled garden. That’s what they’re really good at.
Speaker: 0
02:29:08
Yeah. I mean, the the whole thing that they’ve done with Ai, where they basically they do this whole blue bubble, green bubble thing, and it basically I mean, they’re like, for kids, it’s just sort of, like, they embarrass you. Right? They’re like, if you don’t have a blue bubble, you’re not cool, and you’re like the out crowd. And then they always wrap it in, like, security.
Speaker: 0
02:29:30
It’s like, oh, well, we we do this blue bubble because of security. Meanwhile, Google and others have this whole protocol to be able to do encrypted text messages that, finally, I think Apple was forced to implement it
Speaker: 1
02:29:42
by CS.
Speaker: 0
02:29:43
Yeah. Yeah. I think, like, I think it was the Chinese government that basically ended up forcing them to do it or some other government.
Speaker: 1
02:29:48
But it’s still not encrypted. Even when you’re sending RCS text messages, I don’t think it’s encrypted.
Speaker: 0
02:29:53
Oh, I thought it was, but maybe I’m
Speaker: 1
02:29:54
I think it’s only encrypted Google to Google Phones. I don’t think it’s encrypted iPhone to Google Phones or Google Phones to ai. Because I I think that was actually, was it the Ai? Someone released that, sai telling people that if they’re talking about sensitive things, they should use encrypted apps, like WhatsApp. See if we can find that.
Speaker: 1
02:30:15
It was something where they were saying that contrary to popular belief that RCS texting to iPhone
Speaker: 0
02:30:24
GSMA aims to implement end to end encryption for RCS meh. We see it. Ai meh it’s not a good answer. I’m trying
Speaker: 1
02:30:30
to find sai good answer.
Speaker: 0
02:30:31
I don’t have anything to show you yet. I was trying to read
Speaker: 1
02:30:33
Yeah. So so Google RCS to our like But
Speaker: 0
02:30:36
I don’t know if this
Speaker: 1
02:30:37
Android phone to Android phone is encrypted with RCS. I think the issue comes with it going from so, like, say, Google, Google this. Google RCS texting to iPhones, is it encrypted? RCS texting to Imessage, is it encrypted? Ai pretty sure it’s not. I might be wrong. I don’t think I am.
Speaker: 1
02:31:03
I’m pretty sure I read that. And the problem was they won’t let any other phone use the Imessage protocol, and they had a company that was doing it called beeper. And they were doing it through some sort of workaround. It’s
Speaker: 0
02:31:16
not encrypted. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:31:17
It’s not encrypted. Yeah. That’s what I’m saying. Yeah. So it’s not. So you’re you are getting the ability to send high resolution images, which is great because, you know, like my friend Bryden, who use an Android, he’d send me a video and it’d be this tiny little Yeah. Broken down box because, you know, you had to break it down to the lowest resolution.
Speaker: 0
02:31:37
Yeah. No. I mean, group chats when you have a bunch of people in Ai and then one person is an Android are terrible. I mean, that’s People get mad at you.
Speaker: 1
02:31:45
People get
Speaker: 0
02:31:45
mad at you? Because Well, I use WhatsApp. Sai I use WhatsApp. You only use that. I I’ll I only communicate with a few people over Sai, but it’s, but, basically, I I meh, I mean, I build, you know, a lot of leading messaging services, so I’ve gotta use ours. I I most people, I’m either WhatsApp or Instagram direct or Meh. But yeah.
Speaker: 0
02:32:12
So I Ai think it’s it’s maybe maybe people are less less, likely to get mad at me for asking them to use WhatsApp because,
Speaker: 1
02:32:20
because you
Speaker: 0
02:32:20
only make WhatsApp. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:32:21
So When, Tucker Carlson was about to interview Vladimir Putin, One of the things that was really disturbing was they contacted him and said they read his signal meh, and they knew that he was gonna interview Vladimir Putin. And he was like, what the fuck?
Speaker: 0
02:32:34
Who did?
Speaker: 1
02:32:35
The the government.
Speaker: 0
02:32:36
The US?
Speaker: 1
02:32:37
Meh. US government. I forget what it was. Was it the CIA or was it the FBI? Wow. I forget who it was. But and he was, like, I didn’t even know you could do that.
Speaker: 0
02:32:45
Like Well, there are multiple vulnerabilities and all this stuff. It’s, like, it’s unclear if I doubt that what they did was they broke Signal, because that encryption, I think, is pretty good as is WhatsApp. I mean, it’s basically Signal and WhatsApp use the same encryption. It’s it’s an open source and, like, it’s a NSA. NSA.
Speaker: 1
02:33:03
Okay. But
Speaker: 0
02:33:04
someone could break into your phone and see everything that’s on your phone. The the thing that encryption does that’s really good is, it makes it so that the company that’s running the service doesn’t see it. So if you’re using WhatsApp, basically, when I text you on WhatsApp, there’s no point at which the meta servers see the contents of that message.
Speaker: 0
02:33:28
Unless, like, you know, we took a photo of it or shared that back to Meh in some other way. That basically, it cuts out the company completely from it, which is, I think, really important for a bunch of reasons. One is people might not trust the company, but also just security issues. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:33:46
Like, let’s say someone hacks into Meta, which, you know, we try really hard to make it so they can’t, and we haven’t had many issues with that over the 20 years of running the company. But in theory, if someone did, then they’d be able to access everyone’s messages if it weren’t encrypted. But because it’s encrypted, there’s just nothing there. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:34:05
It’s sai, I mean, they can’t hack into Meh and then get access to your messages. So now someone like the NSA or CIA would have to kind of hack into your phone, which, you know, there there are probably ways to do that. Pegasus. I mean, there are probably a bunch of ways. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:34:22
There’s probably ways we don’t know of.
Speaker: 0
02:34:23
Yeah. And and then, of course, there’s always the ultimate ai of physical part of it, which is if you have access to the computer, you can usually just break in. Right? So that’s why, you know, if the FBI, you know, arrests you and takes your phone, they’re probably gonna be able to get in and see what’s there.
Speaker: 1
02:34:41
Mhmm. So WhatsApp is encrypted, but if someone has something like Pegasus, what they do is have access to your phone. So it doesn’t matter if anything’s encrypted. They could just see it in plain sight.
Speaker: 0
02:34:55
Yeah. And, I mean, this is one of the reasons why we put disappearing messages in too. Because that way oh, yeah. If someone has compromised your phone and they can see everything that’s going on there, then, obviously, they can see stuff as it comes in. But I kind of, in general, just, you know, think we should keep around as little of that stuff as possible.
Speaker: 0
02:35:12
So there are some threads where, you know, it’s ai there’s photos that get shared. You want the photos. But I think for a lot of threads, a lot of people just, you know, you know, wouldn’t be I don’t think most people would miss it if most of the contents of their threads just disappeared after 7 days.
Speaker: 0
02:35:30
Right. You know, what what I find is I don’t I don’t use it that much because we have this, like, corporate policy at meh that we would need to retain all our our documents and messages and stuff. But, but before we had that, I I used it as we were developing this. And every once in a while, I would miss something and say, wow, I kinda wish I could go back and see that, but it was very rare.
Speaker: 0
02:35:55
And I think most communication, it’s kinda ai, you just have the communication, and then you’re done. So having it be encrypted and disappearing, I think, is a pretty good kind of standard of security and privacy.
Speaker: 1
02:36:06
And you can set that disappearing time on WhatsApp. Right? You can make it one day if you want.
Speaker: 0
02:36:10
Yeah. You can do one day. You can do 7 days. And you can also set it across all your threads. You can have a default ai. So that way, as new threads get created, your default timer just becomes the default for all those threads. Ai I know that’s a it’s a really good feature.
Speaker: 0
02:36:26
And I basically think WhatsApp and Signal are probably the 2 most secure that are out there, on that. And of those 2, I think WhatsApp is just used by a lot more people. So I think it’s it’s generally you know, I I mean, I I would say this because it’s it’s it’s our product, but I do think it’s it’s the better product.
Speaker: 0
02:36:43
But but I think WhatsApp and Signal are basically, you know, the 2 most secure ones.
Speaker: 1
02:36:48
What was your take on that guy getting arrested as the CEO of Telegram?
Speaker: 0
02:36:54
Oh, man. That’s kinda
Speaker: 1
02:36:56
a crazy one. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:36:57
Yeah. I mean, it’s always a little difficult to weigh in on these situations without knowing all the specifics. But one of the government tactics that I’ve seen that I think is pretty is not great is an increasing number of governments when they, like, have an issue with something that a company is doing, basically just, like, threaten to throw the executives of that company in prison.
Speaker: 0
02:37:25
And it’s ai I think that that’s just a really weird precedent to set. Right? It’s like it it’s if if the you have all the so it’s ai, we’re operating in all these different countries, and then, like, you have all these governments that are basically like, if you I don’t know.
Speaker: 0
02:37:47
We’re gonna, like, put out an Interpol notice to, like, get you arrested because you’re not doing the thing that we want. It’s like, I don’t know. I don’t I think that’s, like, not great. I think you want the obviously, you don’t want people to just be, like, flagrantly violating the laws.
Speaker: 0
02:38:02
But, like, there are laws in different countries that we disagree with. Right? So for example, there was a point at which I think I was someone was trying to get me sentenced to death in Pakistan, because they thought that oh, because someone on Facebook had a picture of where they had the drawing of the prophet Meh, and someone said that that’s blasphemy in our culture.
Speaker: 0
02:38:23
And they brought a they basically, like, sued me, and they opened this criminal proceeding. And I I don’t know exactly where it went, because I’m just not planning on going to Pakistan, so I was not that worried about it. But but, like, but but it was a little bit disconcerting. It was, like, ai. Fine. Like, these guys are, like, trying to, like ai Kill you. Okay.
Speaker: 0
02:38:44
It’s not great. Right? You know, it’s not like not yeah. I mean, it’s like I feel like I yeah. It’s like flying over that region.
Speaker: 0
02:38:50
You don’t want your plane to, like, go down above Pakistan if that thing goes through, but but that one was sort of avoidable. But the the point is, like, there are all these places around the world that just have different values, right, that go against, like, our free expression values and want us to crack down and and ban way more stuff than Ai think, you know, a lot of people that we would believe is, like, the right thing to do.
Speaker: 0
02:39:14
And to have those governments be able to exert the power of saying, okay. We’re gonna, like, throw you in prison is that’s a lot of force. I mean, so I I I think it’s it’s generally yeah. I think that this is one of the things that that the US government is probably gonna need to help defend the American tech companies for abroad.
Speaker: 0
02:39:33
But I I don’t I I can’t weigh in that much on on the Duraev specific thing because I don’t know what was going on there.
Speaker: 1
02:39:41
You know, when you’re dealing with, the government trying to interfere with Facebook, how much of a fear was there that they were gonna get away with it and that this was going to be the future of communication online? That it was going to that they were gonna be successful with all this, that they would push these things through somehow or another, especially if a even less tolerant administration got into power?
Speaker: 1
02:40:06
They would change laws, and they would do things to make it possible. Like, how how how much did that concern you?
Speaker: 0
02:40:13
Well, we basically just reached a point where we pushed back on all the stuff. Right? So they were pushing us to censor stuff. We were unwilling to do it. We developed a very adversarial and bad relationship with our own government, which I think is just not healthy, because I think, you know, it’s, I mean, in in in theory, I think, you know, it would be good if the, like, American industry had a positive relationship with the American government.
Speaker: 0
02:40:42
But then when that happened is then the the, kind of, US government was going after us in all these ways. But fortunately, in the US, you know, we have good rule of law. So our view is at the end of the day, okay, these invest these agencies can open up investigations, and we’ll just defend ourselves. Ai?
Speaker: 0
02:40:58
We’ll go to court, and we’ll win all the cases because we’re you know, we follow the rules. And, so I think it ends up being a big ai of political issue where it’s, like, it it would just be you could get a lot more done if the government were helping American companies rather than kind of slowing you down at every step along the way.
Speaker: 0
02:41:26
It makes you a little afraid that if you ever actually mess something up, that they’re really gonna bring the hammer down on you if you don’t have a constructive relationship. But, but I don’t know. It’s mostly I mean, going back to the AI conversation, it’s, like, I just think, like, we should all want the American companies to win at this. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:41:46
It’s like this is like a huge geopolitical competition, and, like, China’s running at it super hard, and, like, we should want the American companies and the American standard to win. And, like, if there’s gonna be an open source model that everyone uses, like, we should want it to be an American model. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:42:01
It’s, like, the there’s this great Chinese model that just came out. This company DeepSeek, they’re doing really good work. It’s a very advanced model. And if you ask it for any negative opinions about Xi Jinping, it will not give you anything. If you ask it if Tiananmen Square happened, it will deny it.
Speaker: 0
02:42:18
Right? So I think that there are, like, all these things where we we we should we should want the American model to win. But, like, at every step along the way, if the government is sort of making that harder rather than easier, then that’s I don’t know. I mean, there’s there’s an extent to which, okay, the American tech industry is leading, so maybe the government can, like, get in the way a little bit, and maybe the the American industry will still lead.
Speaker: 0
02:42:43
But Ai don’t know. It’s I think it’s getting really competitive. And I I I think, like, it’s easy for the government to take for granted that the US will lead on all these things when I I think it’s a very close competition, and we need the help, not you know, we need them to not kinda, like, you know, be be a be a force that’s helping us to to do these things.
Speaker: 1
02:43:02
I completely agree. But I think that people with their own self interest, when they’re in power and they realize that these new technologies ai Instagram and Facebook, that they are interfering with their ability to administer propaganda or that their their ability to control the narrative.
Speaker: 1
02:43:20
That that’s where they get ai. And that’s when they act in their own personal interest and not in the interest of not neither national security or the future of the United States in terms of our ability to stay technologically ahead.
Speaker: 0
02:43:34
Yeah. And some of this is just you know, if you go back to the COVID example, I think in that case, they were doing something their goal of trying to get everyone to get vaccinated was actually, I think, a good goal. Right? It’s like I I It
Speaker: 1
02:43:51
was a good goal if it worked. Yeah. If it was real. Like, if it was a sterilizing vaccine, if it really did prevent people from getting COVID, if it really did prevent people from infecting others or transmitting it, but it didn’t.
Speaker: 0
02:44:03
Well Sai
Speaker: 1
02:44:04
it wasn’t a good deal because it wasn’t based on real data.
Speaker: 0
02:44:07
Yeah. But but also even but even if it were. Right? It’s like if if I mean, I I I think that still on saloni, knowing everything that we we know now, still think it’s good for more people to get the vaccine, but the government still needs to play by the rules in terms of, you know, not like, can’t just suppress true things in order to make your case.
Speaker: 0
02:44:26
So I I I that’s that’s ai my my my view on on it is is Ai not sure in that case how much of it was ai a personal political gain that they were going for. I think that they had a a kind of goal that they thought was in the interests of a country, and the way they went about it, I think, violated the law.
Speaker: 1
02:44:44
Well, there’s a bunch of problems with that. Right? There’s the emergency use authorization that they needed in order to get this pushed through, and you can’t have that without valid with with valid therapeutics being available. And so they suppressed valid therapeutics. So they’re suppressing real information that would lead to people being healthy and successful in defeating this disease.
Speaker: 1
02:45:05
And they did that so that they could have this one solution, and this was Fauci’s game plan. I mean, this is the movie American Ai Club or Dallas Buyers Club, rather. That’s Fauci in that movie. That was with the AIDS crisis. This is exact same game plan that was played out with the COVID vaccine.
Speaker: 1
02:45:21
They pushed one solution, this only one, suppressed all therapeutics through propaganda, through suppressing monoclonal antibodies, ai, all of it. And that was done, in my opinion, for profit. And they did that because it was extremely profitable. The amount of money that was made Yeah. Was extraordinary during that time.
Speaker: 0
02:45:43
Yeah. And but look. I mean, I feel like a bunch of the conversation is focused on tension with the American government. I I guess just the point that I’d underscore is that it’s important to have this working in the American government because it is like, the US constitution and, like, our culture here is really good compared to a lot of other places.
Speaker: 0
02:46:06
Right? So whatever issues we think might exist here, you go to other places, and it’s, like, really extreme. Yeah. And you don’t even and and there, it’s ai, you don’t even necessarily have the rule of law. Right. Right?
Speaker: 0
02:46:17
And, so I just think that, like, the way that this stuff works well is yeah. I think if if if there was a clearer strategy and the the US government understood, believe that it’s good to kinda help advance this industry because it’s strategically important for the country, then I think it would it would be good to basically push back on stuff that’s happening in other countries that’s actually a lot more extreme than the stuff that’s happening in the US.
Speaker: 1
02:46:47
Yeah. I agree as well. Listen, is there anything else you sana talk about before we wrap this up? I think we’re good? I don’t know. I mean,
Speaker: 0
02:46:55
how long we’ve been going for? 3 hours. Yeah. Yeah. I meh, well, I I feel like we touched on we touched on AI. We touched on all the augmented and and virtual reality stuff. And I think that that stuff is just gonna be wild.
Speaker: 1
02:47:08
It’s wild. The the your AR, technology that you showed me today is very impressive. It’s crazy. Lex and I were playing Pong, ai, apart from a table from each other. I was playing some crazy game where my fingers got tired because you shoot like this.
Speaker: 0
02:47:24
Because you’re using v one of the neural interface. Yes. Yeah. I know. It’s ai it’s like in the future, it’ll just be this. It was ai
Speaker: 1
02:47:30
It was really fun, though. It’s really cool. And it’s it’s you see where this is all going, you know. It’s really, really fascinating stuff, and I’m very excited about it.
Speaker: 0
02:47:38
Did you get a chance to to use the Ray Bans and the AI in them?
Speaker: 1
02:47:40
Yes. We did that too. And we did translate to where one of your, one of your co coworkers were speaking to me in Spanish, and it was translating it to me in my ear in real time in English, which is really interesting. Nice. Amazing. Yeah. It’s really cool. And then you could also do it on the phone.
Speaker: 1
02:47:55
So you could show it to the person on the phone, so you don’t have to say the words. Like, it’s really fascinating stuff.
Speaker: 0
02:48:01
Yeah. So, I mean, we’re just sort of coming at it from both sides. Right? It’s like the the Ray Bans are ai, okay. Given a good looking pair of glasses, what’s all the technology you can put into that today and still have it be, you know, just a few $100? And then the Orion thing is, like, alright. We’re building the kind of future thing that we want, and we’re doing our best to miniaturize it.
Speaker: 0
02:48:21
It’s basically, like
Speaker: 1
02:48:22
Still pretty small. Yeah. I mean, it’s just thicker glasses.
Speaker: 0
02:48:25
Yeah. And I I think we want it to be a little smaller. We need it to be a lot cheaper. Right? Each pair right now costs more than $10,000 to make, and that’s you’re not gonna have a successful consumer product at that. So we have to miniaturize it more. But, I mean, the amount of stuff that we put in there from it’s, like, effectively, like, what would have been considered a supercomputer, like, 10 or 20 years ago, plus, you know, lasers in the arms and the, like, nano etchings on the on the lens to be able to to see it and the microphone and the speaker and the Ai Fi to be able to connect with the other it’s just ai like the wild amount of technology to kinda miniaturize into something.
Speaker: 0
02:48:59
That one’s really fun. We’ve been working on that for 10 years. But yeah. No. I think I think between that, the glasses, all the AI stuff, yeah, All the social media stuff. Yeah. No.
Speaker: 0
02:49:13
I I mean
Speaker: 1
02:49:14
I think we covered it. And, I’m very excited about this new stance that you guys are taking. I think the community notes thing is a brilliant idea that, you know, x has meh. And I think I’m I’m I am really glad that you guys are implementing it too. I think it’s the way. And the way, generally, I think we both agree is that people have to have the ability to communicate.
Speaker: 1
02:49:32
They have to have the ability to express themselves, and that’s how we find out what’s real and what’s not.
Speaker: 0
02:49:37
Yeah. I I think the more voice is the is the answer on this.
Speaker: 1
02:49:42
Meh. Yes, sir.
Speaker: 0
02:49:42
And Ai think after a after sort of a long journey, I’m glad to be able to take it back to the roots, and I feel like we’re more fortified now in the position.
Speaker: 1
02:49:52
Well, I think one of the lessons that people have learned over the last few years with, suppression of information is that that’s not good, and there’s a giant percentage of the population that feels that way. And even people that are progressive and liberals are on the they were on the side of the people that were pushing the the suppression of information.
Speaker: 1
02:50:09
Still don’t think it’s right. I think most people generally believe in the First Amendment in this country, and they we realize how valuable it is to have the freedom of expression.
Speaker: 0
02:50:17
Yeah. Anyway, thanks for having me.
Speaker: 1
02:50:20
Thank you, Mark. Appreciate it. Ai, everybody ai.
