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#2228 – Josh Dubin Podcast Episode Description
Josh Dubin is the Executive Director of the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice, a criminal justice reform advocate, and civil rights attorney.
https://cardozo.yu.edu/directory/josh-dubin
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#2228 – Josh Dubin Podcast Episode Top Keywords
#2228 – Josh Dubin Podcast Episode Summary
In this episode of the Joe Rogan podcast, the discussion centers around the justice system, wrongful convictions, and the role of media in influencing public perception and legal outcomes. A significant portion of the conversation highlights the work of Josh Dubin, who is praised for his efforts in exonerating wrongfully convicted individuals. The episode underscores the importance of public awareness and media involvement in legal cases, particularly through platforms that allow open and unedited discussions.
A key topic is the submission of a 40-page document to the Lorain County prosecutor, JD Tomlinson, which includes exhibits related to a case under reinvestigation. The speaker encourages the public to review these materials before contacting the prosecutor, emphasizing the role of conviction integrity units in re-evaluating cases. The episode also touches on the challenges faced by individuals who are wrongfully prosecuted and the potential for media to aid in their exoneration.
Dan Crenshaw is mentioned in the context of circulating a critical podcast clip on Twitter, illustrating the impact of social media on public discourse. The episode stresses the importance of maintaining an open mind and being wary of prosecutors who prioritize winning over justice.
Recurring themes include the power of media to influence justice, the need for thorough vetting of guests on the podcast, and the challenges posed by individuals with limited information who are vocal in their opinions. The overall message is one of gratitude for platforms that allow for honest dialogue and the hope that such discussions can lead to positive change in the justice system.
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#2228 – Josh Dubin Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
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00:01
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
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00:03
The Joe Rogan experience.
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00:06
Showing ai day Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
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00:12
What’s up? What’s up, man? Good to see you.
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00:15
Good to see you.
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00:17
So I guess we just get right into it. The last case that we talked about, we had a very unfortunate incident happened after the podcast about a month later.
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00:30
Yeah.
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00:31
The gentleman beheaded somebody.
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00:35
Allegedly. Yes.
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00:37
Allegedly. There’s a lot of allegedlies, but Yeah. There’s so many crazy things to that case. The craziest thing was him, trying to fool the security cameras with a wig. Like, I guess he didn’t know how high resolution cameras had gotten over the 25 years that he was in jail.
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00:54
I mean, apparently, there’s a lot he didn’t know. The only reason I say allegedly is because, I’d be a bit of a hypocrite if I started calling him guilty, before he has a trial. But Of course. Based on the surveillance, It don’t look good. What did they say in Texas? It ain’t too shiny.
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01:17
It’s so crazy because, you know, we went out with them that evening. We brought him to the comedy club. He was hanging out with us in the green ram, and then the news broke. And then, the comics were all ai, hey, man. What the fuck? What the fuck you doing bringing that guy around? I’m like, well, we didn’t know.
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01:32
I I meh,
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01:34
who could have known he was gonna do that other than him?
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01:38
I’m as I’m as I’m as shocked over it now as I was in the moment. I mean, yeah, I don’t you know, there are no words. I I went through, it’s really not funny. I mean, I’m only laughing out of sort of nervousness, I guess. Of course. Ai mean, yeah, I was in I was in Sai. Louis of all places, which is only memorable because that’s where I was when someone called me and said, have you looked at the news?
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02:10
And I said, I was in court, and I was on a break. And, you know, I called him a miracle on this shah. And Yeah. And the the media shoved that straight up my ass. I mean Of course.
Speaker: 2
02:27
But that’s what they’re gonna do. Well, he was the only guy that you had ever brought in that was actually guilty, that you felt was in jail for too long. You know, he he got a 50 year sentence. Correct?
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02:37
70.
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02:37
70. And it was reduced to 25?
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02:40
It was just basically, Ai Servais did about 30 years, and they resentenced him. Look. I would be I’ve had a lot of time to think about this, and I know you and I have discussed it privately. And I kinda went into a hole after this. My fur this didn’t happen to me. A lot of people sai, I’m so sorry.
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03:05
But some people have said other things that weren’t very nice. But the people that I, you know, regard their opinion were sorry that it didn’t happen to me. My first thought was I had 2 thoughts was that poor guy that got killed, and it was a gruesome murder. You know? It wasn’t just beheaded.
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03:29
I think he was dismembered completely.
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03:32
Well, he was trying to get rid of the body. Ai?
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03:33
Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. And my first thought was for him and his family. And then my I think my second and third thought maybe in tandem was this tore down 50 years of work that a lot of people, have fought really hard for and really need, and I felt like I let you down.
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04:05
You know, you’ve given us some an amazing platform to get stories out for people that really need help. I think we’ve made a ton of progress. We’ve got some exonerations as a direct result of this.
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04:21
Yeah. You didn’t let me down at all. No. I You didn’t III appreciate that you felt like that. It didn’t feel like that to me at all. It was just listen, there’s a reality of prison life. There’s a reality of being incarcerated. There’s a reality of taking a person who’s convicted of a violent crime and putting them in jail with violent people for 30 years. There’s just a reality.
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04:42
And, you know, I don’t know what history he had with this man that he allegedly killed, but, you know, it’s ai you can only take so much.
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04:54
Yeah. I mean, listen. I don’t know. My first emotion this is for me and my therapist. My first emotion is usually ai guilt. So I once I I took a little bit of time and thought it through I mean, of course, I come on your show, and then you’re, you know, splattered all over the news for something not positive.
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05:16
Good news is I don’t watch the news,
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05:18
and I
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05:18
don’t pay attention. I don’t listen to anything anybody writes about me, so it didn’t bother me at all.
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05:23
You’re rare. Sai, look, for me, I have to take a hard look at what I’m doing and, take the mirror out and look straight in it and say, like, what did I do wrong?
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05:37
You did nothing wrong.
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05:38
Well well
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05:38
I don’t think you did anything wrong. You just you just listen. The man had great qualities. He like, when you talk to him, he’s very intelligent, very nice guy. He just thought he could get away with getting payback on somebody.
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05:50
Yeah. Look. That’s super gracious of you. I’m not whether I did something wrong or not, I I typically go to blame, and that’s something that I have to that’s a kink I have to work out in my personality. But let let me just articulate it ai I think what I the platform is so important to meh, and getting these stories out is so important to me.
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06:11
And I think that where I’ve landed is that he didn’t let me down. He didn’t let look. I was the public face of his resentencing. There was a lot of great people involved, and it wasn’t just from the defense side. The Center For Appellate Litigation had some amazing people working on his case.
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06:32
The District Attorney of Manhattan agreed to this. So on paper, even in their personal interactions with him, there was nothing that raised a red flag for anyone. He didn’t let anyone down if he did this, which people will draw their own conclusion. He’ll have a trial. He didn’t let anyone down if he did this but himself and the people that still need help.
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06:57
And I have to swallow the jagged pill that this work comes with some let downs. The recidivism rate for people that have served long sentences like that is less than 1%. It just happened to happen on a case where I was involved. I have no
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07:19
Is it really that low? Yeah. Wow. Yeah.
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07:22
If you look at exonerations, resentencings of people that have been incarcerated for more than 20 years, it’s that low. And and, you know, the the harsh reality is that if you put someone on a public platform and they then do what he supposedly did, it’s gonna make headlines.
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07:44
I realized something, though, that look. No 1 could have imagined what’s in the dark recesses of that man’s soul, whether it’s, you know, his group home upbringing and abuse, the prison experience. It’s not to make an excuse. He did it if he did it. If he’s convicted and he did it, that’s on him.
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08:10
What I’m guilty of is giving a guy a second chance. And I I am why am I reluctant to say this? I can’t apologize for giving someone a second chance and then, you know, they squander it. All I can do is sai, what could I have done better? I mean, I have a deep understanding, I think, of what incarceration means. I mean, I read this book. I always get his name confused.
Speaker: 1
08:38
Is it Henry Jack Abbott or Jack Henry Abbott? It’s called in the belly of the beast when I was in college. And it’s a series of letters that this inmate wrote to Norman Mailer. It’s a fascinating book. And about what incarceration does to somebody from the standpoint of, the practical day to day, from the deep psychosis inducing confinement and everything else.
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09:04
And 2 days before the book was released and it was reviewed by The New York Times, the guy snapped and killed someone in the East Village. And no 1 will know what it is like to be in there. And, again, I don’t want to offer this as an excuse, but what it has caused me to do is reevaluate and say, look.
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09:27
Maybe I need to take a much closer look at what sort of mental health counseling these folks are getting. Like, Sheldon, I arranged for him to be speaking to a trauma therapist. Should I have been on him more to be going to those appointments? Maybe.
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09:48
What was the circumstances with the the guy that he allegedly killed?
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09:55
Ai don’t know if I’m doing it just because I’m distancing myself from it subconsciously, but I don’t know all the circumstances. But, apparently, this was someone he knew from childhood and from in prison. I’ve heard rumors and, you know, stories about the ai, threatened his son to he shah Sheldon when they were in prison.
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10:20
I don’t
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10:20
know if you meh. Sheldon had this big gash across his face. But I don’t know. And I I frankly don’t wanna know at this point because someone lost their ai. And that, you know, I think unfortunately for my mental health, I just wear that stuff. You know, if I felt even remotely responsible for that, which I do, then, you know, I have to I can I can be at peace with it, but I didn’t cause that death?
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10:50
And I don’t you know, I can take some responsibility for it in the sense that what could I do going forward, where whether it’s people that are being exonerated for crimes they didn’t commit or if it’s people that are getting resentenced, you cannot undo decades of confinement.
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11:08
You just can’t. And they all need mental health counseling, all of them. And I have to put that on my shoulders. I just do because, you know, they all have issues, and they come out and need mental health counseling. And there’s a stigma attached to it, especially in the African American community, and there shouldn’t be.
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11:29
It’s no different than if you have a problem with your liver, you know, and you have to take medication. I mean, I’ve always been upfront about the fact that I’m on medication. It’s it’s nothing to be ashamed of, and it’s especially warranted when you’re in those circumstances.
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11:45
Again, none of this is to make an excuse, but I just think that there’s a lot more emphasis that I can focus on, assimilation more. And I think that making sure that they have job training and that they feel safe when they get out I mean, there hasn’t been 1 person who I’ve been involved in their case where even even when they’re innocent, they get out, and it’s a fucking shock.
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12:09
And I need to be a lot more sensitive to that, I think, and pay a lot more attention to what they’re doing, how they’re doing. Again, I had I had the foresight to put Sheldon in touch with and ensure that we were getting him mental health counseling with a trauma therapist, but Ai, you know, I didn’t wanna meddle too much in that because it’s on him to go.
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12:38
So, I mean, that’s where I land, for better or for worse.
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12:46
Well, the guy really did slash his face. If you’ve been in literal mortal combat with a person and this person is allegedly threatening your son or whatever, you know, There’s only so much you can do to stop a person from seeking revenge
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13:02
I guess.
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13:03
Especially if they don’t have any hope outside of the system and they they’ve been completely institutionalized, which given the length of his sentence is reasonable to assume.
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13:16
Yeah. You’re you’re a lot more forgiving and understanding than than a lot of people were and have been about this. You know, I’ve had there’s been 2 schools of thought in the reaction. I mean, I got pretty nasty hate mail, and I got a lot of words of encouragement. I think the hate mail outweighed the words of encouragement. Always. But Psychologically, always. Ai mean, by in in substance, number, and probably psychologically. Yeah.
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13:49
But that shit just gives me fuel. You know? If you’re sending meh, fuck you, you race baiter, you this, you that. You know? Race baiter. Oh, yeah.
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14:00
I got a lot of that.
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14:01
How are you a race baiter?
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14:02
By telling the truth about the state of race in the criminal justice system in this country. Ai I you see, the thing is the 1 the 1 force field I have around myself is when that’s incoming, I I’m able to say, okay. Thanks for the fuel. Thanks for the fuel. I’ll never respond to it.
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14:19
You know, unless you’re doing mental health counseling in a prison, unless you’re a corrections officer or a police officer, know what it’s like to be incarcerated. You have no fucking business giving me your shitty opinion about what you think I am or others that do this work.
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14:41
Get in the fucking arena and do it yourself. And I you know, so I I take that with a big grain of salt. I had, you know, I have enough common sense and practical sense to sort of let to disregard vatsal, But I have to be a big enough person to look at myself and say, what can I learn from this, and what could I do better?
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15:05
Because, you know, I was talking to Derek Hamilton, who’s been on the show and the the deputy director of the the freedom clinic at the Perlmutter Center. And, you know, Derek said, look. Mental health counseling when I was incarcerated was something that was ai it it flew in the face of the us versus them mentality.
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15:29
I didn’t think they could help me.
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15:31
Mhmm.
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15:31
And I didn’t wanna want the help. I was mad, and there was a stigma attached to it that I was soft if I did it. I didn’t want people in inside knowing. So I don’t we’re trying to formulate a plan to normalize mental health counseling in prison. So Derek and I are doing a town hall at Chawanggank, which is a pretty rough prison in New York on December 6th to try to get some of the inmates to understand that it’s okay to ask for this help.
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16:06
I think when they see Derek and hear his story, it’s it’s helpful for them.
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16:12
So I’m gonna say something that’s gonna sound pretty controversial, but I think, you know, 1 of the, 1 of the conversations that I’ve had repeatedly, I had it with JD Vance, I’ve had it with quite a few people, is psychedelic therapy for veterans. People with severe PTSD because of war, I think, are the most deserving of psychedelic therapy and the benefits of it.
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16:37
And the fact that that stuff is schedule 1 and is illegal in the United States, I think is absurd. It’s ridiculous. It’s horrible. It’s a a massive disservice to those people that put their lives on the line and went over and experienced horrific things that the average person like myself can only imagine and you’re not gonna do a good job of imagining it.
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16:58
I think prisoners could benefit from psychedelic therapy as well. I think there’s a lot of people that could be rehabilitated by changing the way they they view things, literally changing their mind, changing their perspective. And I think there’s a lot of psychedelic therapies that could aid in that, particularly for people who, you know, they’re not violent people.
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17:20
They’re they just had they’re victim of circumstance or they made bad decisions in their life or what have you. And they’re stuck and they’re stuck both mentally and physically. And if we wanna use prisons as just a deterrent to crime, okay, I think we should probably put some effort towards rehabilitation, you know, sincere significant efforts towards rehabilitation.
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17:48
And 1 of the best ways to do that is to try kinda try to change the way people view themselves and view the world and view themselves as a part of the world.
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17:59
The fact that you would even think that that would be controversial, I think, is just a a byproduct of the fact that anything that somebody articulates that’s outside of, like, what’s considered mainstream
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18:13
Yeah.
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18:14
Is rejected. Unquestionably, the research is overwhelming Overwhelming. That psychedelics are 1 of the best, 1 of the best, most effective, therapies for PTSD. My therapist has, you know, counseled people with PTSD coming back from war and, you know, has has espoused the the not only the efficacy of it, but how remarkably different it is from conventional therapies in the most positive of ways.
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18:56
And I could not agree with you more. I think that if you look at some of the European countries that look at their prison systems as a real rehabilitative model I mean, we have to decide that we we we talked about the stats, and I’m not, gonna, you know, relitigate that here.
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19:16
But, look, we incarcerate people at a higher rate than any other civilization on Earth. So we have to decide as a society, are we just gonna throw people away and put them in cages and make them worse even if they committed the crime? Or as you said, are we really going to try to rehabilitate people?
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19:37
Because some people are getting out no matter what, whether they have people like me involved and other great people that do this work, but they’re gonna get out. Do you want them out ai they were just an animal meh out of a cage, or do you want them out where rehabilitation is a cornerstone of their incarceration?
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19:57
Right. And it just doesn’t happen in our criminal justice system.
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20:02
Well, there’s a bizarre attitude in this country that we shouldn’t do anything to make their life better while they’re in there, you know. And that’s something like psychedelic therapy is ai that it’s a luxury, you know, that it’s, something they don’t deserve, that it’s, something that should be reserved for good people.
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20:23
Or or some or that there’s some, like, it’s for people that are, like, fucking off and, you know, the others that do drugs, that whole mentality.
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20:34
Sure. Yeah. There’s that too.
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20:36
So yeah. Ai listen. I mean, you talk about, like, looking up at the mountain and saying, can I scale it? I think what you have to do and I’m talking about this. All it takes is 1 state, 1 municipality, 1 person who says that’s interesting. Show us the literature. We have this amazing policy director at the Perlmutter Center named Sarah Chiu, and she’s in the trenches having these arguments, having these fights, trying to get forensic labs, you know, ensuring that they have the proper training accreditation so that they’re not introducing, you know, various forms of junk science.
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21:17
All it takes is just the effort going forward to try to start pushing that boulder uphill or else, you know, again, this goes to, you know, the incoming hatred in a situation like we had here is like, what the fuck are you doing to help try to make the situation better? Because just calling names and pointing fingers and saying you fucked up or this person that we threw away is not worth saving. Listen.
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21:49
Everybody has made some mistake that they wish other people didn’t know about. You know? And it’s not always homicide, obviously. But a lot of people have done something that but for the grace of god go I. Right? Mhmm.
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22:10
Where if somebody was looking, if law enforcement was looking, it could be you that was there. And would you want a second chance? Would you want redemption? Would you want the help to overcome whatever demons? And I I just think why psychedelics aren’t, you know, looked at, ketamine, the the little bit that I did going through a dark time, it, it almost snapped me in a different direction.
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22:42
Yeah. And, I mean, I, you know, you urged me onto it. I mean, you were the 1 that said you should really think about this. And my therapist urged me onto it. And I think, you know so I know that the literature is there.
Speaker: 1
22:58
It’s just we have to get past this whole, it’s so weird that you mentioned that. I was talking to a guy on the plane on the way down who was telling asked me, if marijuana legalization passed in Florida, because I was tyler we were talking about, you know, where are you from, this and that.
Speaker: 1
23:22
And he was telling me that and he was from Colorado. And he told me that, you know, in Colorado, when marijuana was legalized, that there was this whole, movement of people that were saying that it would be a gateway drug and that it was gonna lead people down the slippery slope to doing other hardcore drugs.
Speaker: 1
23:46
And he said, you know, the gulf between smoking weed and turning into a meth addict doesn’t exist. He said that the bridge between the 2 doesn’t exist. And if you start walking marijuana use and trying to link it to drugs that the US government considers a problem, the link just isn’t there. Right.
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24:10
Sai, I mean, I you know, he was sort of arya trying to explain to me how he didn’t understand how marijuana is any different than alcohol. And I said, well, go tell that to the state legislator in Florida. I don’t know what to tell you.
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24:25
Did it not pass in Florida?
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24:26
It got 58%, and it needed 60%. Really? Yeah. I don’t get that. I just don’t get Ai and and Why would
Speaker: 2
24:37
it’s fucking more than half the people. That should be it. Why it needs 60%.
Speaker: 1
24:42
That was the same thing with, you know, the amendment on abortion. It needed 60%. Maybe it was the abortion 1 that got 58%. I might be wrong about that. But in any event, I don’t I don’t understand the the resistance to psychedelics as a therapeutic, both in mainstream society, let alone in the prison system.
Speaker: 2
25:05
Well, it all goes back to 1970. It all go back is it all goes back to the Nixon administration, the sweeping Ai Act of ai 1970 that turned everything schedule 1 that was designed to it was designed to cripple the civil rights movement and the anti ram movement. That that’s what it was about. It was about having new tools to, imprison people that were, anti war, that were protesting the war.
Speaker: 2
25:32
The Black Panthers, civil rights organizations, all these people that were doing drugs, you know, that were using psychedelics to try to achieve a different state of consciousness, and that brought them to these ideas that we’re all 1 and that war is evil and that the United States government is being controlled by the military industrial complex and that this is AAA giant problem in our culture, you know.
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25:58
But people were so weirded out by the Timothy Learys and, you know, the the whole tune in, you know, turn out, whatever the fuck his motto was, drop out. This whole thing of leaving polite society and being a loser and just ai traveling around and doing drugs in a van. Like, this is this was, like, the the the perspective that people had that was gonna take their kids and turn them into ne’er do wells and turn them into losers, and that we were gonna have a society filled with, people that didn’t understand the ethics of hard work and what made America great and all all this bullshit.
Speaker: 1
26:38
Well, look, what’s born out of that is this, you know, misunderstanding, I guess, is the best way to put it. Ignorance.
Speaker: 2
26:56
Well, it’s propaganda. You’re a victim of propaganda.
Speaker: 1
26:59
Well, look, also, if you think about, like, Coin and Tel Pro
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27:02
Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
27:04
You know, all of a sudden you’re spying on people that you think are others. Mhmm. You’re, legalizing that intelligence gathering that allows you to start violating people’s civil liberties so that you can gain intelligence on them because the way they think is unlike you. Right. So, you know, it’s again sort of to me all ties back to this very, I guess, tribal mentality that you’re either like us or you’re like them. Right.
Speaker: 1
27:43
And everything that you mentioned, the ai act, the resistance to the civil rights movement, it was all based on the fact that, look, we’re we have a a potential uprising here of people that are gonna challenge the way we think
Speaker: 0
27:58
and
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27:58
the way we do things. Right. So for people to call me a race baiter, right, Sai, you know, I feel like I’m more of a truth teller and just taking the thread through history. And, you know, I I have at least I’ll read and try to educate myself and get perspective. If if it wasn’t a fact that brown and black men and women get incarcerated at a higher rate, I wouldn’t be talking about it.
Speaker: 1
28:28
And I’m just talking about facts. So I think that it’s just this ai misconception about these are drugs and they’re bad Mhmm. Versus you sit and speak to someone and take some, you know, pharmacologic form of therapy that has probably way worse side effects, can be addictive and can lead to a whole host of other issues that you then have to take something else to address versus just being having the openness to take a look at a different way to potentially help someone.
Speaker: 1
29:06
So I don’t understand it. And the only thing that that I can do is just to keep on being open minded and, you know, try to figure out if there’s other ways that we can convince the people that are in these penitentiaries and that run them to allow programs that at least give you a crack in the door to get in?
Speaker: 2
29:31
Well, I think the way the doorway to that is to first show the effectiveness, with veterans and, with other people that aren’t incarcerated. And that once that gets established and once ai becomes something, I think it’s meh, much more established now than it was when I first started talking about this stuff 20 years ago.
Speaker: 2
29:51
You know, ai, probably when I’ve had my first experiences was a little more than 20 years ago. I think people had this very ignorant idea that was born out of propaganda. Because you have to think 20 years ago, it was only 30 years removed from the sweeping psychedelics act.
Speaker: 2
30:10
So you’re dealing with a whole society that’s been just programmed by propaganda and ai. And that prop those propaganda and lies were established in order to villainize this 1 group of the population that was completely changing the culture. The difference in the United States culture from 1965 to 1955 to 1965 was so dramatic. It was such an enormous shift.
Speaker: 2
30:38
You know, then you have the Vietnam War, the protests, all these things that were happening in the sixties, the music, everything was changing so radically and so drastically that the people in power had a very, like, an an accurate sense that they were losing control and that change was inevitable, and they threw water on it.
Speaker: 2
31:04
And they did a great job. If you look at it from that perspective, the difference between meh, it’s terrible what they did, but it was effective in that from 19
Speaker: 1
31:12
A great job of throwing water on it.
Speaker: 2
31:13
Yeah. A great job of changing culture, which was changing in a potentially beneficial way for everyone to get us to recognize that we we truly are all 1 and that the way to make things better for everyone is to make things better for the most disadvantaged. And this was the civil rights movement. Right? And this was the anti ram movement.
Speaker: 2
31:38
This sai, this was recognized that people are being taken advantage by the military industrial complex and just sent overseas so that they could profit.
Speaker: 1
31:47
Amen. I I, the first guy that I met that really, like, changed my perspective on on the world, especially in terms of what what I could potentially do as a lawyer was Jerry Lefkort. Jerry Lefkort was Abby Hoffman’s lawyer. Mhmm. He was the lead attorney in the Panther 21 trial. I was like a kid.
Speaker: 1
32:17
I was in my late twenties, and I was met with him to help him pick a jury on a case. And I had read about him before. And he saw something in me. We hit it off. He became like my like my surrogate uncle, and he would regale me with tales of his, of the panther 21 trial.
Speaker: 1
32:40
And here’s a guy that was kinda winging it in his late twenties and can feel the change that you’re talking about happening, and he could feel the weight against him, the pushback coming from the other side where he would get death threats. He would get, bomb threats at his office where he could not even see his client in jail approaching trial and had to get on a cherry picker in in outside the jail to be able to get even with the window so that they can communicate.
Speaker: 2
33:20
Jesus Christ.
Speaker: 1
33:20
So Jerry left court, and he, by the way, got a full acquittal in the Panther 21 trial against all odds. He was the first person that told me about Coin and Tel Pro and what the gut the lengths that the government will go to when they feel like their message, their way of doing things is being challenged.
Speaker: 1
33:43
And I think that you hit the nail right on the head, which is this was like a flu in the face of Leave It TO Beaver. It flew in the face of, you know Yeah. Father knows best. Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
34:00
It flew in the face of what white America was trying to instill as a value system that should be followed by all people without question for all time. Mhmm. And people started to say, what the fuck is this about?
Speaker: 2
34:17
Right.
Speaker: 1
34:17
I wanna explore the messiness and the, the gray areas of what it means to exist as a human being. Right. And that expression, whether it was Richard Nixon or the people around him that got their backs up, You know? So if you are a student of history and you start to understand sort of why we’re here rather than just looking here and forward, I think these things ram me are a little bit easier to understand when somebody comes at me and calls me a race baiter for the work that I do because I talk about the problem of race.
Speaker: 1
35:00
I understand that that’s born out of ignorance. And I don’t mean ignorance like you’re a dummy. I mean ignorance like you’re
Speaker: 2
35:07
You’re not you don’t have access to the information.
Speaker: 1
35:09
Yeah. Or you chose not to have access to it.
Speaker: 2
35:11
Yeah. Your perspective is incorrect.
Speaker: 1
35:13
Read Ta Nehisi Coates’ book Between the World and Meh, it’s a fascinating fucking tale. It’s a letter written from this, you know, black man to his 15 year old son. And it is, it’s a life altering book for me because it puts you into his soul of what it has been like to grow up as a black man in this country.
Speaker: 1
35:39
And it it it stops me in my tracks when I think about it, when I talk about it because it’s like the only way that we can get to a more common understanding is to, you know, I think to read books like that and to talk to people. And if you’re so closed off and closed minded and, again, I keep on sort of adding this disclaimer, and maybe this is my aversion to ai getting attacked, I am not excusing if Sheldon did this.
Speaker: 1
36:09
I just think that, it’s not so simple as, oh, you let some guy you helped some guy get out and get resentenced and look what he did and fuck all these people and fuck your movement. Okay. You’re entitled to that opinion. That’s where I leave it.
Speaker: 2
36:24
Yeah. You can’t listen to those people. You just you know what you’re doing. You’re smart. You can’t listen. Meh. It’s just that you’re gonna have those people. They’re they’re always gonna exist. There’s always gonna be people with limited information perspective. You know?
Speaker: 2
36:40
And limited information people ai are the loudest and, the most vocal about it and and also the ones who are least willing to objectively assess how they came to the conclusions that they’re so vocal and loud about. You know, limited information people, that’s a it’s a big I mean, that’s why, clickbait headlines work.
Speaker: 1
37:00
Well, look, I mean I love that shit. That’s why you get attacked sometimes by, you know you don’t know about it because you don’t read it. That’s why you get attacked sometimes.
Speaker: 2
37:11
Some people try to send it to me. It’s funny. Hey, man. Fuck off. Stop sending me that shit.
Speaker: 1
37:15
You know, someone someone in my family, a cousin of ai, sent me a link to a story about you endorsing Trump and wrote, what the fuck? And I said, right. What the fuck? Why are you sending this to me? Like, first of all, what the fuck? What the fuck are you what?
Speaker: 1
37:44
You’re because you all of a sudden support this woman who, by the way, probably should have accepted the invitation to come on the show. It might have been the difference between people getting to actually know who the fuck she was. But putting that aside, it’s like Ai have to do a much better job of filtering that stuff out because the notion that, you
Speaker: 2
38:09
know,
Speaker: 1
38:10
you are sana be influenced by outside forces other than what you’re doing, ai, for you to say you know what you’re doing, I like to think I know what I’m doing, and I feel like I’m doing You
Speaker: 2
38:22
know what you’re doing.
Speaker: 1
38:23
Good things, and I just gotta keep on working in that direction, not let what happens slow me down, try to learn from it, and go forward. Look. I don’t want this to come across as, like, constantly being ai a situation where I’m every time I get on here, I thank you. But I think the importance of this forum was was made clear by having the president on, by having the vice president on because it’s the only open forum where you don’t have to worry about being judged, about someone chopping up what you say and twisting it or leaving some remarks on the cutting room floor.
Speaker: 1
39:12
And it it’s it’s also important because you don’t give a fuck about what other people say or think and you just do what you feel is the right thing to do. Because Ai meh, I’ve told you privately. I’ll say it now again. It would have been the the easy thing for you to do would have been to say, well, fuck this guy. I’m turning my back.
Speaker: 1
39:33
I don’t need to have him on again.
Speaker: 2
39:35
So I said it was never gonna happen. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
39:36
Well
Speaker: 2
39:36
Now, listen, what you’ve done is amazing. Wow. And the people that you, have brought on the show have changed a lot of people’s perspectives about our justice system. A lot of people. You brought on some incredible people, and you’ve told some incredible stories. And and as you said, people have been exonerated for crimes that they didn’t commit.
Speaker: 2
39:56
If you are a person who’s listening to this and you had you could be fucked by the system. It’s possible. You could be trapped by a corrupt prosecutor. It happens. Thank God it hasn’t happened to you.
Speaker: 2
40:09
But if it did happen to you, you would pray that there’s a Josh Dubin in the world that pays attention to your case, you know?
Speaker: 1
40:16
I appreciate it. And, I mean, I don’t it’s not just me. There’s a
Speaker: 2
40:19
I understand.
Speaker: 1
40:20
There’s a village of people there.
Speaker: 2
40:21
There is. But a person like you. Yeah. You know? And I think highlighting that and highlighting the need for that and the understanding of how the system can railroad you and the system can really fuck you over. I think 1 of the things that we saw during the the Trump, campaign was the legal system being used against 1 of the most powerful people in the world and how they can get away with turning 34 misdemeanors.
Speaker: 2
40:48
So essentially, 1 misdemeanor, but 34 versions of it. 34 ai in a ledger incorrectly. That’s a misdemeanor and is past the statute of limitations can be converted into a felony and turned against a guy who’s running for president as law fair. It’s just completely using the legal system to try to attack a guy and try to take him out of the race and also try to label him a convicted felon.
Speaker: 2
41:17
So once you have this label a convicted felon, you you heard it on all the talk shows, convicted felon, convicted saloni. But enough people had a chance to look at the circumstances of the case and and understand what was actually what he was actually being tried for. Paying someone off to not talk about how he fucked them. Is that what we’re worried about? Arya we worried about World War 3? Was that what we’re worried about?
Speaker: 2
41:40
Are we worried about terrorist cells, like, being established in the United States because our border’s wide open? Is that shah are we worried about the price of groceries and people being able to feed themselves? That’s what we should be fucking worried about, not whether or not some guy fucks someone. Like, who cares?
Speaker: 1
41:56
It’s so it’s so, interesting to me because the conversations that people in the legal community in New York were having at the time, I cannot tell you how many times. Didn’t matter what side of the spectrum you’re on politically. But in New York, there’s a lot of fucking Democrats.
Speaker: 1
42:13
And I can’t tell you how often I got this call. What is the crime here? What I mean, with regard to that particular case, first of all, the DA of Manhattan seemed to, realize that it was a futile endeavor to go after this guy and retreated. And then something happened, and they you meh, the the special prosecutors quit Mhmm. Because they were furious, apparently, that the DA wouldn’t go forward with the case.
Speaker: 1
42:41
Then, something happens in between. And Alvin Bragg, the district attorney of Manhattan, proceeds with the case. So many legal scholars said, what is the crime here? I understand there’s a series of misdemeanors that somehow gets flipped into a saloni. Legal scholars that had issues with it.
Speaker: 1
43:04
And if they spoke about it publicly, they were attacked.
Speaker: 2
43:08
Right.
Speaker: 1
43:08
Saloni Dershowitz was 1 of them. He was attacked. Anyone that would speak out. And there’s this fear for good legal minds to get behind defending a case like that because it’s viewed in, democratic strongholds like Kryptonite. Right? Right. So you mean remarking on that case, yeah, it was weaponized against him.
Speaker: 1
43:32
And that’s why I think it was this morning the judge in that case agreed to a joint motion by the prosecution and the defense to put everything on hold because they’re deciding whether or not they’re gonna dismiss that case. And if you remember, the the drum that was constantly beat before this election was he’ll never get out of these state cases.
Speaker: 1
43:55
The federal ones we understand because he can pardon himself. But the state cases, oh, those are gonna be a problem. Well, not so fast. Right? Because now if it was that much of a a ai and that people were so up in arms about it, why are they now considering dismissing it?
Speaker: 1
44:12
And I think that the the it puts the the lie to the notion that this was really something that we wanted to make an example out of and you can’t engage in this type of conduct. What conduct? You know, it was obviously politically motivated. And, you know, and it happens all over the country.
Speaker: 1
44:32
It happens all over the country on both sides of the aisle, though. We have I have a case right now that and for me to be able to say this is probably you know I had to think, is this is this the craziest fucking case I’ve had? And and it has to be. It has
Speaker: 0
44:55
to
Speaker: 1
44:55
be. Because the DA that is sitting in judgment of whether or not these 4 men that I’m gonna tell you about in a moment, right before the election for him to become DA gets indicted. He gets indicted for allegedly, like, harassing a former employee and then trying to bribe her not to file a complaint against him, something like that, right before the election.
Speaker: 1
45:28
And all of a sudden, he is now embroiled in this. He loses the election a couple of weeks ago, and he is now finds himself wrongful according to him, wrongfully accused of a crime he didn’t commit. Well, my client, is a guy by the name of John Edwards, and there were 4 guys. This is in Lorain, Ai. Lorain County, Ohio.
Speaker: 1
46:00
It’s John Edwards, Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis, and a guy named Al Cleveland. New York guys, in the early nineties who were selling drugs at Ohio. They were going back and forth from Ohio to New York. And 1 morning, a man by the name of Epps is found dead in the street. His roommate is found about 7 hours later, a woman named Marsha Blakely, dumped in an alley behind a shopping center. The case is cold for a month.
Speaker: 1
46:48
The police have hit dead ends. They have nowhere to go with the case. The prosecutor’s office offers a $2,000 reward for anyone with information about the case. Wouldn’t you know that the next day, a man by the name of William Avery senior walks into the tyler Lorain County prosecutor’s office.
Speaker: 1
47:13
They sit him down with the police, and he says, I have information about the case. Now this ai, William Avery senior, was a known informant. The police knew him. He had come and tried to give information about other cases. Didn’t pan out. He was also a drug addict.
Speaker: 1
47:30
And they sit with him for over an hour, and they say to him, everything you’re telling us has been in the papers, so you’re not giving us anything new here. He shows up the next day with his son, William Avery junior, and he says he witnessed the murder. So William Avery junior talks to the police.
Speaker: 1
47:55
At the end of that interview, he goes, what about the reward money? And the officer says, let’s turn the tape recorder off, and let’s talk about that. They tell him, we’re not giving you the reward money because now you’re telling us that information that’s been in the papers, and all you’re telling us is that you saw Marsha Blakely assaulted in an apartment.
Speaker: 1
48:24
You’re not telling us anything about the murder. The very next day, he shows up and says that Al Cleveland told him that he murdered Arya Blakely. So let’s put a bookmark in it because I decided I wanted to do something a little bit different today. At the end of the episode, I’m gonna give you a Twitter account. I’ve submitted today a 40 page submission.
Speaker: 1
48:57
All of the exhibits that are mentioned in that submission to the Lorain County prosecutor. His name is JD Tomlinson. So now I’m sana invite the public. Before you go writing a letter to him or calling him, you read the submission and look at the exhibits yourself. Because what often happens is that in these reinvestigations, prosecutors’ offices have something called a conviction integrity unit where they say they’ll reinvestigate the case.
Speaker: 1
49:30
And the very first thing they make you do is sign a no media agreement, that you won’t go to the media because the last thing they want you to do is what I just did, is to talk about the case publicly. So we’re not in a conviction integrity unit. We’re trying to appeal to a prosecutor, JD Tomlinson, who ram what I understand has told Al Cleveland’s wife, because I’ve spoken to her.
Speaker: 1
49:54
Her name was Roberta, great woman, came up to her in the summer at a barbecue and sai, when I was a law student, I sat in on your husband’s trial, and it always bothered me. And I want you to come in and have your lawyers come in. I’m gonna do the right thing. And now that he’s been indicted, he has gone silent.
Speaker: 1
50:18
I haven’t heard from him. I’ve text him. I see he reads my messages because he has read receipts on, and I guess he doesn’t know that. And I’ve asked him for his time. I think in his wildest dreams, he probably never could have imagined that the case was gonna now become national news.
Speaker: 1
50:36
He has between now December 31st to do the right thing and exonerate them. The incoming DA would never do it, I don’t think, from what I’ve heard. So I’m gonna invite the public, and I’ll give you the link at the end. And I wanna tell you the rest of the story, because some of the things I tell you, you’re gonna say, come on. That can’t be true.
Speaker: 1
50:57
So I have the exhibit sitting in a folder for everybody to read. But, you know, the I think that the justice system has been weaponized against JD Tomlinson because he was coming up for a reelection. There’s all sorts of, like, personal animosity between him and the guy that just got elected.
Speaker: 1
51:19
There’s allegations at least that the guy that just got elected helped, you know, was somehow involved in, you know, getting him indicted by a special prosecutor. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it doesn’t just happen on the big national stage. It happens all over the place, and you just don’t always hear about it.
Speaker: 1
51:40
Well, I
Speaker: 2
51:41
think the fact that it happened on the big national stage the way it did, and not just the case of the hush money, but also the case of, Mar a Lago being overvalued, which is preposterous. That was 1 of the most ridiculous ones. They they listed it, what, 17, $18,000,000? I would buy 5 of those if they’re available for $18,000,000.
Speaker: 2
52:03
You know how much money you would make for that kind of property?
Speaker: 1
52:06
You ever been to this place?
Speaker: 2
52:07
No. It’s
Speaker: 1
52:09
I’ve been there a bunch.
Speaker: 2
52:11
I’ve seen it.
Speaker: 1
52:12
It’s fucking it’s magnificent. Yeah. You walk in there and you feel like, you know, Marjorie Post bought it and had it designed, it’s magnificent.
Speaker: 2
52:23
Forbes, I think, had valued it between $7,900,000,000. Is that true? Find out what what the valuation was. But, like, independently before all this shit, it had been valued and I think Trump valued it over a 1,000,000,000 which, of course, he’s gonna do.
Speaker: 1
52:38
And he’s doing it to the bank. Right. Right? Trying to get a loan.
Speaker: 2
52:41
Paid the loan off with interest. Everything was fine. Nobody there’s 0 victims involved in this. And the fact that they want to say that it was actually so what does it say here? Okay. 350. Okay. So the club had revenues of 25,100,000 for the calendar year of 2017, 22 in 2018 and 21 in ai, 2020 2022, Forbes estimate the value of the state around $350,000,000.
Speaker: 2
53:09
I think Trump jacked it way higher than that. And I think I I’ve read somewhere that someone had said between 7 and ai, if you could like, what a real estate evaluation would be, like, what it’s actually worth in the state that it’s at. I think there was an issue though that it it was, wasn’t it, like, listed as a National Historic Landmark or something like that, Jamie? Ai.
Speaker: 2
53:30
So then you really can’t do anything to it, which devalues it somewhat. But still
Speaker: 1
53:36
I would think listen.
Speaker: 2
53:37
18,000,000 is fucking crazy.
Speaker: 1
53:38
There’s no property like that anywhere. You feel like you’re in Europe when you’re there. It is it is a magnificent place and has some of the best food in Florida. So I don’t and I don’t know that part of the valuation of something like that seems to me to be a bit subjective.
Speaker: 1
53:58
It’s now the home, of the sitting 2 time president of the United States. So yeah. But putting all that aside
Speaker: 2
54:08
Just in real estate alone. There was a there was a lot that was sold next to it or a home that was sold next to it. There was $50,000,000.
Speaker: 1
54:15
And they it’s not just Mar a Lago. Across the street, they have the beach club that sits right on the beach. But the point is is that they’re meddling into look. The bank could have said, well, we’re gonna send an appraiser out there
Speaker: 2
54:27
Right.
Speaker: 1
54:28
And we’re gonna determine whether or not we agree with you that it’s worth that. That happens for anyone that’s ever sold a home. So yeah.
Speaker: 2
54:35
The point is there’s no victim. The point is, like, there it’s not like he got this loan and then defrauded the bank and then defaulted on his loan and then pocketed the money. No. No. He paid everything back with interest. It was profitable for the bank. Everything worked out. It’s like this is a bullshit case. Everyone knows it’s a bullshit case.
Speaker: 2
54:56
So that’s another 1 that was in the news that everybody got a chance to see.
Speaker: 1
54:59
Well, hopefully hopefully, it opens people’s eyes. Look, there’s a lot of white collar crimes that I’ve been, a defense lawyer on, where you see the human cost of a prosecution, what it does to the person accused, but also their family. And to somehow crawl out from under the weight of the the federal government, these these take years and a fortune to defend.
Speaker: 1
55:30
And oftentimes, you’re thinking, why did they bring this case? What who are the victims here? And they come up with some loss calculation that’s very theoretical. I’m talking about cases where you can’t point to a victim that lost money. And, you know, you wonder why some prosecutions are brought and others aren’t.
Speaker: 1
55:55
And you see again what it does to not only devastate families and the accused, but is it really deterring anyone? I would never ever enter an industry where I was working with stocks, bonds, commodities, anything that was regulated in any way by FINRA, the Sai, because they’ll oh, it seems like they can make a case sometimes when there isn’t a case to be made.
Speaker: 1
56:27
And, hopefully, you know, regardless of what side the political spectrum you’re on, what happened to Trump should be eye opening to people because you don’t have to agree with him or his politics or his policies to see what’s happening today as we sit here when everything’s being reconsidered and and you think about the massive expense that it takes to prosecute these cases.
Speaker: 1
56:52
That guy has I don’t care what anybody says about him. He’s gotta be 1 of the toughest motherfuckers you’ve ever met to stare down all of this, and most people would be in a puddle. To stare down these prosecutions and the threat of going to jail and everything else, that breaks a lot of people.
Speaker: 2
57:10
Yeah. And then 2 assassination ai. Yeah. Jesus Christ.
Speaker: 1
57:16
He’s built he’s built different.
Speaker: 2
57:18
Yeah. He is. I mean, the guy is 78 years old, and I talked to him for 3 hours. And he didn’t pee before. He didn’t pee afterwards. Just sat here, talked, but didn’t lose any energy, and then flew off to do a campaign rally.
Speaker: 1
57:32
Yeah. Listen. I hope I wish him all the success in the world. I hope he does well. I I got these, well, you you can’t vote for Kamala Harris after what you’ve said about her. You’re right. Yeah. I voted for Jill Stein because this 2 party system to me is fucked. You know? You gotta, like, you gotta be with us or them.
Speaker: 1
57:53
And then there’s all kinds of gaslighting that goes on. Yeah. You have to answer to people. I just feel like there should be more choices, but that’s a different
Speaker: 2
58:00
There certainly should be.
Speaker: 1
58:01
That’s a different sexual issue.
Speaker: 2
58:04
You know, you spoke on the podcast about her history as a prosecutor and what she had done, and, I know they contacted you after after that.
Speaker: 1
58:13
Yeah. I mean, what was happening well, this was way back Yeah. When well, I think it was days before she was selected to be the vice presidential running mate for Biden. But, I think it was Carpenter who was is that his name? He’s a great congressman. He wears an ai patch.
Speaker: 2
58:36
I don’t know. Oh, Dan Crenshaw?
Speaker: 1
58:37
Dan Crenshaw, not Carpenter. Dan Crenshaw took a clip from the podcast and was circulating it on Twitter. And it was of me being critical of her. And, you know, and again, that’s a situation where she had so many opportunities during this campaign to just say, listen. I obvious I watched a little vignette about this family who was prosecuted for their truant child, and it ruined them.
Speaker: 1
59:06
So all of this, I’m a prosecutor, and I’m gonna prosecute the case against this. That that petrified me because I have sat in rooms with prosecutors that just wanna be right and win. And I would just say, please, just open your mind a little bit. I was just I just sat in a room with the conviction integrity unit, and there were prosecutors in the room where and I’m I I can’t sign 1 of those agreements, so I can’t name the case or the city or the borough.
Speaker: 1
59:43
But where the the prosecutor went to federal prison for bribing witnesses and is accused of the same conduct in this case where he was giving money to someone who has recanted their testimony. And the prosecutor sitting in the room were like it wasn’t that they weren’t open minded. They had their mind made up before we got in there.
Speaker: 1
01:00:09
And you feel like saying, can you just listen? Just listen.
Speaker: 2
01:00:12
They just wanna win.
Speaker: 1
01:00:13
Yeah. And I think that that that is my problem with the 2 party system is that it’s either on this side or you’re on this side.
Speaker: 2
01:00:21
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:00:21
And there’s no room for gray area between the issues. Right. I have I have a friend who I mean, I I learned so much during this election. I have a friend who is from Central America, and, she was telling me Ai I didn’t when Trump won the first time, I was furious. I couldn’t stand the guy.
Speaker: 1
01:00:43
But when I came to this country, I saw my mom fight for citizenship, and I saw what she had to go through the right way for me to get citizenship. And she said, so I just can’t vote for anybody but him. So everybody has their own reasons for doing it. It doesn’t mean it has to be all about a cult of personality, and you’re voting for you’re endorsing everything about the person.
Speaker: 1
01:01:10
And I think that, you know, having that understanding that, you know, look. A lot of people that I spoke to a friend of mine the other day that grandparents, you know, were in the holocaust. His grandfather survived the holocaust, and he voted for Trump because he’s like, I didn’t feel protected by the other sai.
Speaker: 1
01:01:27
You know, as as those grandson of people that went through that. So, yeah, I just think that watching a system get weaponized against someone in that in that way. It’s it’s upsetting. And hopefully, like you said, it opens people’s eyes to the fact that if they could do it to the president Yeah. It could happen to you.
Speaker: 2
01:01:50
And it’s so transparent. It was so transparent. It wasn’t like he committed a murder, and there’s a lot of evidence point the fact that he committed this murder. No. It’s just a crime that didn’t make any sense. You’re gonna spend 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars prosecuting this crime.
Speaker: 2
01:02:03
You’re gonna parade it around for the whole world just so the Democrats can have this talking point convicted felon. And you just see it repeated over and over again on MSNBC and CNN. These pundits wanna say convicted felon. They sana say that. Like, what’s the fucking crime?
Speaker: 2
01:02:20
Tell me what the crime is. But when you you wanna get smart and and spout off facts, why don’t you tell me about the case? Because I’ve looked at it, and it’s fucking bananas. And if it happened to you, you’d be terrified because they just made a ai. They made a felony out of something that’s not a felony.
Speaker: 1
01:02:37
I mean, listen. The if you’re looking for logic and reasoning in any of these, you’re not gonna find it. I mean, listen. Ai feel terrible. But I feel different about some of the cases. Like, I feel like the, you know, the election case is had has the most substance to it. You know, standing up and saying the election’s rigged, the election’s rigged.
Speaker: 1
01:03:05
I have a problem with that, but, you know, obviously, more than half the country didn’t have as much of a problem with it.
Speaker: 2
01:03:13
And Well, that was 1 of the ones that I said was the weirdest where he didn’t have an answer ready. Then you should have an answer ready right away. And if I if I had been accused of something that like that and I strongly believed that the elections were rigged, I’d be able to give you facts right away.
Speaker: 1
01:03:29
But he can’t. Meh well, who’s his facts? Rudy Giuliani and Yeah. I ai. And MyPillow?
Speaker: 2
01:03:34
Well, that’s the thing. It’s ai, I don’t know how much time he has to investigate the cases. Right? So he has probably people telling him things. And who are these people? And what is their evidence? What’s their information? I I would I would hope that if you have something that’s so controversial, ai, you ran for president, you believe you should have won, and they rigged it, you should have data that you could spit out at any cocktail party.
Speaker: 1
01:03:59
But he’s doing the same thing that you’re talking about CNN and MSNBC do, which is just repeating the same thing. When people were standing in line voting a couple of weeks ago, he was saying the election was this election was rigged. Mhmm. And poof, it must have they straightened it out because he won.
Speaker: 1
01:04:16
But I don’t
Speaker: 2
01:04:17
What he what he was saying was they were trying to rig the election. And, I
Speaker: 1
01:04:20
think facts did he have to back that up?
Speaker: 2
01:04:22
Well, there’s the 1 thing of bringing in people, to the country illegally and then pushing for amnesty, which was they were doing. They were doing. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:04:30
I just don’t know the numbers on it.
Speaker: 2
01:04:32
Well, it was millions of people. If you think about the amount of people that came into the country. Right? And you think about how some of these swing states, their cumulative votes was, like, 75,000 that switched it 1 way or another. And just you can imagine if you’re bringing in millions and millions of people and you’re moving them to swing states.
Speaker: 1
01:04:48
Well, if that’s yeah. If that’s true.
Speaker: 2
01:04:50
When the evidence against it was, like, well, they’re not all moving to swing states. Well, okay. You can’t tell people where they can and can’t move once they come to the United States. If they have family that’s in Texas or if they have family that’s in Arkansas or whatever, they’re gonna go wherever the fuck they wanna go.
Speaker: 2
01:05:02
But a significant number of them were in the country. If you bring in 10,000,000 people, you have a quite a bit of a buffer. It’s not a perfect system. But if you’re trying to let people in illegally and then give them not just protection, but also money, food, food stamps, housing, taking care of them, and then giving them an incentive to vote for the party that did that to them when the other party wants to they they wanna round people up in mass deportations.
Speaker: 1
01:05:32
Yeah. But putting party aside, what evidence did you see? Documentary evidence that people were registering to vote and how many of them?
Speaker: 2
01:05:42
Well, it’s not that they were registering to vote. The issue is that there’s no voter ID, which is fucking insane. You need an ID for everything. This ID Where
Speaker: 1
01:05:51
where is there no voter ID?
Speaker: 2
01:05:53
Harris won some states that require voter ID contrary to online claims, fact check. So we oh, so there’s an online chart that’s incorrect that people are passing around?
Speaker: 1
01:06:01
See that this is this is exactly
Speaker: 2
01:06:04
states did she win that have, voter ID? Well, she’s got there’s certain, like, deep state deep blue states. I hear you. Colorado and Rhode Ai.
Speaker: 1
01:06:12
But look what just happened.
Speaker: 2
01:06:13
Sai is that 2? Is that the 2? Vice president also won New Hampshire, which requires photo ID, but allows individuals without 1 to either have their identity confirmed by a designated official or fill out an affidavit. Harris also won both Delaware and Virginia. So there’s a couple states that she won that have voter ID. But these are these are ai these deep blue states.
Speaker: 1
01:06:37
Fair enough. Look, I don’t know
Speaker: 2
01:06:38
The question is the swing states.
Speaker: 1
01:06:40
I don’t know enough about it, and I I’m I live in a in a world where I need the evidence. But backing up to the other election, look. If I’m just saying if there was 1 case where I was like, come on, man.
Speaker: 2
01:06:51
You know what’s weird about the the 1, the 2020 that we keep going back to is the amount of people that voted. That’s what’s really crazy.
Speaker: 1
01:06:57
Way more. Way more. Way more. Way more.
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01:07:00
And that’s I don’t
Speaker: 1
01:07:00
know what to make of that.
Speaker: 2
01:07:01
Well, it’s the first time ever you have mail in ballots that are used ubiquitously. You know, that wasn’t a thing before. Mail in ballots were essentially for people that were overseas.
Speaker: 1
01:07:09
Well, I think I think COVID had a big part. Sure.
Speaker: 2
01:07:12
It did. But also never, you know, miss an opportunity. And if you wanted to cheat, that would be the way to do it. And to try to keep voted mail in saloni, Keep voting by mail in ballots when it’s not necessary anymore. It’s not a pandemic. Sounds good. Seems crazy.
Speaker: 1
01:07:27
It does, but it’s not to me, I live in a world that you cannot say shit like that without backing it up. But listen, whether I don’t I have started to really veer away from having a strong political view and just putting my head down and doing what I can. So I don’t I mean, I don’t see the evidence on the prior election. I see the claim repeated a lot.
Speaker: 1
01:07:52
I just didn’t see I
Speaker: 2
01:07:53
don’t see the evidence either, but I do see evidence that people are trying to make it easier for illegals to vote. That disturbs me. Yeah. The the pathway to citizenship has always been kinda difficult. And when you talk to people that have done it the right way, it’s very hard.
Speaker: 2
01:08:10
They have to go up for review. They have to hope that this person decides that they’re a person worthy of being in this country, and you had to be a person of extraordinary skill and talent or that talent and skill wasn’t available in the United States.
Speaker: 1
01:08:25
Listen. I recently moved out of New York to Florida, and I got my driver’s license and registered to vote pretty quick after I moved there. My wife didn’t. When we went to vote, they wouldn’t let her vote because it hadn’t been 30 days yet. So all I could say is that in Florida, they required an ID.
Speaker: 1
01:08:48
Yeah. And they didn’t let my wife Well,
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01:08:51
California literally passed a law where you’re not allowed to ask for ID, which is crazy.
Speaker: 1
01:08:56
Yeah. It is crazy.
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01:08:57
That’s crazy. Well, why would you do that?
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01:08:59
Andre Andre What
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01:09:00
would be the most charitable version of why you would do that?
Speaker: 1
01:09:03
Yeah. Andre Andre Ward and I have been discussing California quite a bit recently, and seems like it’s it’s a little bananas to live in California right now.
Speaker: 2
01:09:19
It’s fucking crazy.
Speaker: 1
01:09:20
Yeah. He’s, It’s
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01:09:21
not gonna get better either. You know You know, a lot more people voted red in California. Have you seen the map of, 2020 versus 2024?
Speaker: 1
01:09:29
Yeah. I did.
Speaker: 2
01:09:30
It’s a giant significant shift. And if that keeps going, the state’s gonna go red. And I think if the state keeps falling apart, people are gonna come to their senses and recognize that the policies they have in place right now are fucking gross. They’re gross. And you’ve got a bunch of bureaucrats that are profiting off of the homeless situation. They’re taxing the fucking shit out of people. The state tax is 14.
Speaker: 2
01:09:50
If you live in LA, it’s another 1. Sai 15% of all your money just goes to incompetence.
Speaker: 1
01:09:56
It’s the same thing in New York City. I mean, you you’re giving to the state Mhmm. To the city. You end up paying way more than if you make enough money, you end up paying way more. Here’s the rub I don’t get about Democrats. Alright? This is the thing that bothers me about Democrats, and this is why I I registered finally as an independent. The we hear about the American dream a lot.
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01:10:23
The American dream. The American dream. I was a son of a teacher. And now I sound like a politician. I was a son of a teacher in a sales force.
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01:10:30
Did you grow up middle class? What’s that?
Speaker: 1
01:10:31
Yeah. I grew up middle class. To
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01:10:33
see the normal air process.
Speaker: 1
01:10:34
Mid middle class. Right? And we had to grind it out, and there were financial problems and everything else. So the American dream is to make it on your own, to be self made. And then you get to that point, and you get demonized for it. Now you need to give back in a way that how dare you not give more than half your effective saloni, more than half your income if you live in California or New York.
Speaker: 1
01:10:58
Right. You give it away. Right. 52%, 53%. You end up feeling like, what the fuck? What did I do wrong? I give back in so many other ways.
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01:11:07
And this
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01:11:08
my take on that.
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01:11:09
Yeah.
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01:11:09
If they were doing a great job and they were legitimately making people’s lives better, I’d be fine with that. If if there was a system where I had to pay 50% because I make a lot of money and I had to pay 50%, but that 50% was changing people’s lives. They could show you all these success stories.
Speaker: 2
01:11:25
It’s like revolutionizing the way, poor people are allowed to make it out of that situation and
Speaker: 1
01:11:32
have a lot of luck. In California? No. I wasn’t feeling it in New York. Going to the state courthouse.
Speaker: 2
01:11:38
You feel bureaucracy.
Speaker: 1
01:11:40
Yeah. It’s it’s,
Speaker: 2
01:11:41
You feel, like, corrupt politicians who are profiting off of narratives. And they’re they’re a bunch of dirty people who don’t even follow their own fucking rules, particularly Gavin Newsom. Doesn’t even follow his own rules. It’s the guy that got busted in the middle of the pandemic wearing no mask indoors eating at the French laundry. It’s all bullshit.
Speaker: 2
01:11:58
It’s all bullshit, and the people felt really fucking prisoned by it. They felt really captured by their government, and that’s why a lot of people move.
Speaker: 1
01:12:05
He’s got great hair. That’s got great hair.
Speaker: 2
01:12:07
Great hair. What is a great sort of version of what you would expect of a politician? Just
Speaker: 1
01:12:14
What does great hair get you so far?
Speaker: 2
01:12:16
Well, people want great hair. They want good the good genes. Tall and great hair means a lot to people.
Speaker: 1
01:12:25
Yeah. I don’t
Speaker: 2
01:12:27
I don’t ai We’re stupid. Yeah. People are stupid. There’s a lot of stupidity involved in why we choose things. You know?
Speaker: 1
01:12:33
I read I read this article once about how, there was a a poll done of female voters when Bill Clinton ran the first time, and they asked the reasons ai, and it was multiple choice. And 1 of them was that he was good looking and had a full head of hair.
Speaker: 2
01:12:50
Yeah. They wanna fuck him.
Speaker: 1
01:12:53
Yeah. And, apparently, he wanted to fuck them.
Speaker: 2
01:12:57
Yeah. He’s a great president, though. I mean, when in terms of policy, in terms of what did for the economy, ai was a great president. Well Great orator.
Speaker: 1
01:13:04
I agree except for the fact that mass incarceration kinda started with him.
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01:13:09
Yes. The the crime bill of 94.
Speaker: 1
01:13:11
Yeah. Sai I think that our prison industrial complex started with Bill Clinton.
Speaker: 2
01:13:17
Well, it was kicked off by Joe Biden.
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01:13:18
It was
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01:13:20
It did. It was just hilarious.
Speaker: 1
01:13:22
It’s just
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01:13:22
the guy running against all that.
Speaker: 1
01:13:23
Yeah. It’s all bullshit. You know, I don’t it it was very interesting to me that this is playing out in real time with with the incoming president, and I have this parallel situation going on in Ohio. This is called a weave. I’m weaving back to Ohio. And I wanna tell you the rest of the story about the Ohio 4.
Speaker: 1
01:13:47
Sai this guy, JD Tomlinson, is the the prosecuting attorney in Lorraine. He’s under indictment right now. He’s got 2 months left. Like I said, he now knows, according to him, what it’s like to be wrongfully accused of a crime. So watch this.
Speaker: 1
01:14:07
You have these 4 guys who sai, again, it’s Al Cleveland, Lenworth Edwards, John Edwards, Benson Davis. Yeah. You gotta light up for this 1.
Speaker: 2
01:14:18
I can’t hear it from him.
Speaker: 1
01:14:20
So I told you, William Avery senior goes in, tries to get the reward money. They tell him, fuck off. Brings his son in the next day. They say to him, no dice. Then he comes back and says, okay. Al Cleveland told me he committed the murder. Comes time for, their trials to begin, and they’re gonna all be tried separately. And William Avery junior gives this account of how this murder happened.
Speaker: 1
01:14:49
And he says that he watches this woman, Arya Blakely, get beat for 15 to 20 minutes inside of her apartment and that, you know, the reason, he this woman gets beat is because Al Cleveland wanted him to work off a debt and beat her up, and he said no. So then these 4 men bust in the door, and the this is how the crime occurs. It comes time for the first trial of these 4 meh.
Speaker: 1
01:15:18
And William Avery junior shows up as the prosecution’s star witness, and he says, I want $10,000 to testify. You gave me 2 I want 10,000. And the prosecutors say, we’re not giving it to you. And he says that I’m not testifying. The judge throws him in jail. He’s in jail.
Speaker: 1
01:15:45
He is cool in his heels, as they sai, and he says, you know, I made this whole thing up, and I did it for the money. And no 1 believes him. And the judge says, what are you talking about? You’re gonna get on the stand and testify. He says, no. I’m not.
Speaker: 1
01:16:10
And now he’s facing potential perjury charges. The judge declares a mistrial. He then comes back with a news story to the prosecutors and says he witnessed the beating. He witnessed other details of the crime. He then goes on to testify at all 4 of their trials. After the first mistrial, they all get convicted.
Speaker: 1
01:16:35
He then fully recants of his own volition, says he got off drugs, says he wants to straighten out his life. He’s in the process of cooperating with the FBI and the Secret Service. Now these exhibits are sitting in this folder. You go to Twitter, it’s free the Ohio 4. Free the Ohio 4. There it is. And if you just click on that URL person’s following?
Speaker: 1
01:17:08
Well, we
Speaker: 2
01:17:08
ram followers?
Speaker: 1
01:17:09
There was a there was a a reason because I didn’t put it up until right before the episode today.
Speaker: 0
01:17:15
I’m gonna
Speaker: 2
01:17:15
be your first person to follow it. Sai Ai gonna get on right now and be the first person to follow it.
Speaker: 1
01:17:20
If you click on that, it will bring you to a folder with this 40 page submission that I put in today and references to all of the exhibits. So here it this is my first page. At the trials of Al Munday, that was his pseudonym, Al Cleveland’s pseudonym. At the trials of Al Monday and those charged with him, I testified under oath that I was an eyewitness to Alfred Cleveland, who I knew as Monday, along with other people I knew as JR Will and Shah, who’s John Edwards, beat Marsha Blakely at Floyd App’s apartment and then murder her behind Charlie’s Bar in Lorraine.
Speaker: 1
01:18:01
All of this was a lie. I never witnessed the murder of Marsha Blakely, was not with her or Al Cleveland the night she was murdered. I only done it for the money, and everything was not true. The entire case was built on this man. There’s no forensic evidence, no eyewitnesses, nothing.
Speaker: 1
01:18:23
So this is not to be believed.
Speaker: 2
01:18:26
What was the reason why they thought this woman and that other man were murdered?
Speaker: 1
01:18:31
They didn’t know. They had no theory.
Speaker: 2
01:18:33
Police had no theory. To them?
Speaker: 1
01:18:35
No connection to them.
Speaker: 2
01:18:36
There was no theory, like drug deal gone wrong,
Speaker: 1
01:18:39
something like that. That was what they ended up coming up with was that she was a drug user. Cleveland was a drug dealer. It must have been drugs gone wrong. So something involving drugs gone wrong. So William Avery junior is after they get convicted, is working as an informant for the FBI and the Secret Service.
Speaker: 1
01:19:04
Now prior to this case, maybe this is how obtuse I ram. I thought that the Secret Service’s purview was the president, but apparently, they have other investigative functions because he was working on some food ram scheme as an informant. The secret service tells the Ai, and the testimony is in that exhibit file. The secret service tells the FBI, this guy, William Avery junior, he’s not to be trusted.
Speaker: 1
01:19:30
He’s lying to us, and he’s lying to us for money. They contact the prosecutor. The FBI calls the prosecutor in Lorain County and says this guy, William Avery Junior, used him as an informant in that case against these 4 men. He’s a liar, and he does this for money. So they end up getting Al Cleveland’s lawyers, John Edwards’ lawyers, Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis.
Speaker: 1
01:19:57
They end up getting an evidentiary hearing. And William Avery junior comes to testify, and he’s coming to testify that I made the whole thing up. And he’s in very exquisite detail. His father, who obviously brought him there, threatened his life. He was sat him down and smoked crack with him to calm him down.
Speaker: 1
01:20:25
You can’t make this shit up. Wait till you read the affidavit. He
Speaker: 2
01:20:31
sat down and smoked crack
Speaker: 1
01:20:33
with him to calm him down.
Speaker: 2
01:20:34
Down from crack.
Speaker: 1
01:20:35
Tyler him, I need that reward money for my drug habit. He was a fucking junkie. So he needs the reward money, and he gets his son to go in there. And it’s obvious if you watch the if you read the interrogation and his testimony that he’s being meh. They show him pictures of the apartment where this woman was allegedly beat. He’s getting details wrong. They’re they’re, you know, he changed his story.
Speaker: 1
01:21:02
He was telling conflicting versions of the story. So at these post conviction hearings where these men should have all been exonerated, He gets on the stand, and before he testifies, the judge says to him, have you been advised? Do you have an attorney? He said, I don’t think I need an attorney. And he tells William Avery junior, well, you need an attorney.
Speaker: 1
01:21:26
We’re gonna appoint you an attorney because you’re about to perjure yourself because you either did 1 of 2 things. You either lied and that put 4 men in bryden, or you’re about to lie now to set them free. Either way, you’ve lied under oath. Think about the mind fuck of this. So this guy is coming to clear his conscience, and the judge threatens him with prosecution.
Speaker: 1
01:21:55
So he gets an appointed attorney, and they go and ask the prosecutor, will you give him immunity so he can tell the truth? They say no. His defense attorney asks the judge, will you give him immunity so he can tell the truth? And the judge says no.
Speaker: 2
01:22:11
Oh, god.
Speaker: 1
01:22:12
And they tell him, we’re gonna charge you with perjury if you tell the truth. He walks out of the courthouse, okay, after pleading the 5th and is interviewed by the local paper walking out of the courthouse. That’s in the exhibits. And he says, they’re all innocent. I made the whole thing up.
Speaker: 1
01:22:35
I’ve been trying to tell the truth here, but I can’t go to jail for whatever time they’re gonna give me. So here you have a guy that is the son of a known junkie. He has been the prosecutors in this in Lorain County have told, have been told by the FBI that he’s not reliable, that he makes things up just to get money.
Speaker: 1
01:23:01
He’s been caught in ai after lie after lie, and now he comes and wants to tell the truth and set these men free. And the crazy and and this judge puts him in this situation where he’s he can’t tell the truth, or else he’s gonna get prosecuted. This is what happens in this country. This is the kind of thing that and these 4 men, 2 of them are out. 2 of them are serving life sentences.
Speaker: 1
01:23:28
Al Cleveland’s wife, Roberta Cleveland, saw this DA, and he said he was gonna do the right thing. He knew that the case was problematic. And now because he’s worried about his own indictment, you know, he’s not responding. So what we’re asking for is your listeners to go through and read this very detailed submission that I’ve made along with the Ohio Innocence Project, the Ohio Public Defenders, and a great attorney, by the name of Kim Corral, who you actually you actually had a good laugh over 1 ai, oddly enough, because she was at the White House when Kanye West was there.
Speaker: 1
01:24:12
And she was she was, like, apparently, like, standing over him ai, and you were like, look at this fucking girl. She just thinks that, like, how the fuck did I get here? She told me about it this morning.
Speaker: 2
01:24:23
Did she feel that way? Like, how the fuck did I get here?
Speaker: 1
01:24:25
She probably did. She’s super cool. I spoke to her this morning. She’s a badass, and she was like, I’ve never met him, but he seems awesome. And he did have a good laugh at my expense when Kanye was in the White House. So yeah.
Speaker: 0
01:24:38
There she
Speaker: 1
01:24:38
is. That’s her. Do you remember this?
Speaker: 2
01:24:42
Kinda. Kinda.
Speaker: 1
01:24:44
Oh, it’s so funny. But she’s ai in
Speaker: 2
01:24:47
the White House. I forgot that.
Speaker: 1
01:24:48
She’s awesome. But so we’re asking your listeners to go and read the exhibits, read the submission, and then I have a contact page. Call JD Tomlinson. Write him a letter. Look. These 4 men thank you, Jamie. These ram men certainly were drug dealers. Al Cleveland. We’ve established Al Cleveland’s alibi, John Edwards’ alibi.
Speaker: 1
01:25:18
Check this shit out. His alibi witness was Daymond John from Shark Tank. He testified in his fucking trial Woah. At post conviction hearings. Daymond John back then was a hardscrabble New Yorker. He was doing whatever he could to grind out. This is before FUBU.
Speaker: 1
01:25:41
And he was friends with Al Cleveland, and Al needed to move to have a TV moved. And Damon had ai a gypsy cab service, a car service in New York. You lived in New York. Right? You remember what it was like you call a cab service?
Speaker: 2
01:25:55
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:25:55
A car service. And he was with Al Cleveland the day of these murders. Al Cleveland saw his probation officer the day after the murders. People saw him all over New York when the murders happened. John Edwards was with his girlfriend, his girlfriend’s family throughout the night from, like, 10 at night till 3 in the morning.
Speaker: 1
01:26:18
His girlfriend was pissed off at him because he was flirting with some girl in the bar. So these guys have alibis. There is no question. They had absolutely nothing to do with this crime. This woman, Marsha Blakely, was murdered. Right? Here’s 1 of the strangest facts in this case.
Speaker: 1
01:26:35
She is seen all over town, all over town at the time they claimed that you that this that this ai, William Avery, originally claimed she was murdered. She’s seen by family members, friends. She’s looking for ram. She’s walking down the street way after this guy claims it happened.
Speaker: 2
01:26:56
How was she murdered?
Speaker: 1
01:26:57
She she was throat was cut, and she was run over by a car. Oh. Alright. So we’ve talked about tunnel vision before. And when the police think they have the guy
Speaker: 2
01:27:07
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
01:27:08
They had a problem on their hands. They couldn’t solve the crime, and they have these guys that are drug dealers in the area. So they become easy marks for this. There is a blade sitting in a diagram found right next to Marsha Blakely’s body. They never tested it for bryden they never collected it. They never tested it. It was at a time when DNA is the early nineties. DNA was around.
Speaker: 1
01:27:32
Her roommate Epps, Raymond Epps, is found a mile or 2 down the road with his throat slit and run over.
Speaker: 2
01:27:45
Same thing?
Speaker: 1
01:27:46
Same thing. No one’s been charged. No one’s been charged. It’s an unsolved case as of this day. Why?
Speaker: 2
01:27:55
Because they
Speaker: 1
01:27:55
pinned it on these guys. They pinned it on these ai, and this guy, William Avery junior, only he came in with information about 1 of the murders. The the cases were so clearly connected that the medical examiner pointed it out. These people were killed in the same way. Why there isn’t an outrage, a fucking outrage about this case, is is beyond me.
Speaker: 1
01:28:19
When I got this case, I said there is no way what you’re telling me is true, that this guy has come and wants the clearest conscience and tells you exactly what happened. And the FBI told the prosecutors that he’s a ai, and these guys are still 2 of them are still serving life sentences.
Speaker: 1
01:28:38
And when you have to live stamped as a murderer, even in the free world, you know, Al Cleveland is out, and he’s suffering. I mean, I had to listen to his wife heaving. She couldn’t get ahold of herself because she went down to JD Tomlinson’s office and said, you told me you were gonna help. And he said, I can’t now.
Speaker: 1
01:29:09
I’m sorry. I’ve been indicted. The last time I exonerated someone, look what they did to me because he exonerated someone else, and his political opponents attacked him. You know, human beings, we we we sometimes get in our own way because of outside forces. What we think other people are gonna say, think.
Speaker: 1
01:29:32
JD Tomlinson’s been voted out. He’s been wrongfully accused of a crime. It’s time for him to to say, you know what? I’m gonna do the right thing. All I ask is actually a meeting with him. I wanna meet with you between now December 31st.
Speaker: 1
01:29:48
Let me lay everything out for you as I have in this submission. He’s now gonna have it in his hands. He wouldn’t answer my text messages. I’ll give him a break. He was obviously going through some serious personal issues being under indictment, running for reelection. This is an easy thing.
Speaker: 1
01:30:10
This is just doing the right thing. There is no way that you could look at this evidence, and this is why I think it’s a good idea for rather than give a snapshot of a case and, have to rely on some process with these conviction integrity units behind closed doors where they run the reinvestigation.
Speaker: 1
01:30:33
I like the public being able to get invested and look at the evidence themselves. Everyone loves a true crime story. So why not, as part of this, let the public help make the case. And when they write a letter, they’ll do it more forcefully, or they call him and say, how could you ignore this?
Speaker: 1
01:30:53
So, I would just encourage everyone to go on Twitter and go to free the Ohio 4 and look at the evidence. And if you ever I’ve gotten so many reach outs. How can I make a difference? What can I do to make a difference? This is it. You can write.
Speaker: 1
01:31:11
You can call. You know, his his cell phone number is online because he was running for reelection. You know, let him know that the public is watching and expecting him to do the right thing. You know, that’s the the the best use I feel like I can make of publicly advocating for change is to help bring in the public and and give them a vested interest in trying to help.
Speaker: 2
01:31:42
Well, this case is this is a just an amazing example. Right? I mean, you said this is the craziest case you think you’ve
Speaker: 1
01:31:51
ever had? I I don’t think I’ve ever had a case ever where the the sole alleged eyewitness recants and then is threatened with jail ai, is actually put in jail after trying to extort the prosecutors where there’s no forensic evidence, and it was the most incomplete investigation I have ever seen.
Speaker: 1
01:32:17
What would be the most logical thing to do if this guy says, you know what? There was a beating at this house. What what would be the most logical thing for police to do? There was a beating inside this apartment for 15 to 20 minutes, and this woman was brutally beaten. What are the police gonna do first?
Speaker: 2
01:32:40
Scan for evidence. Go to the apartment.
Speaker: 1
01:32:42
They go to the apartment. Right. They don’t spray it for luminol. They don’t see if there’s you you luminol is a a chemical agent that brings out hidden blood. You know, they do nothing. They go and do a scan of the apartment, a visual sai, and see nothing out of order. They don’t test that knife.
Speaker: 1
01:33:04
And this is Was
Speaker: 2
01:33:05
there evidence that the woman was beaten?
Speaker: 1
01:33:07
No evidence. Oh, there was evidence that she was beaten, just not in that apartment.
Speaker: 2
01:33:12
So shah beaten before she was stabbed?
Speaker: 1
01:33:13
There was oh, there was an eyewitness that saw her that night with, like, a black eye begging begging for money for drugs Oh, okay. After he allegedly saw her killed. Oh. So it’s, she was living a street life.
Speaker: 2
01:33:31
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:33:32
And she was there was, you know, suspicion that she was trading sex for money, so that she could feed her drug habit. So, I just don’t I don’t I’ve never had a case where the FBI calls the prosecutor and sai, this guy is a liar, and he goes in for reward money and for financial gain, and he can’t be trusted.
Speaker: 1
01:33:53
Never had a case where a judge says, if you tell the truth, we’re gonna put you in jail. If you tell the truth, it’s just as bad as putting these guys you know, you either told a lie to put them in jail, or you’re now telling a lie to free them. I mean, I just don’t get it. I just don’t get it.
Speaker: 1
01:34:15
Ai don’t understand ai, you know, in in almost half of the cases where there has been an exoneration based on a sole eyewitness’s testimony, over half the people recant. And the courts are very critical of these recantations. So in other words, if someone makes up a story and then they come back and say, look.
Speaker: 1
01:34:40
I made that up because my dad was threatening me because the police threatened meh. That’s somehow viewed very, very critically. Whereas the initial it’s really easy to put someone in jail. Real easy. Real difficult to get them out.
Speaker: 2
01:34:59
So do you think that’s because the system is set up to not reverse convictions because it’s bad for the prosecutor’s record? It’s bad for the confidence of the judicial system? Like
Speaker: 1
01:35:12
All of the above. Yeah. I mean, why did Kamala Harris block, why did she block access to biological evidence from crime scenes? I think the rationale back then was, oh, well, it would lead to a flood of requests. So fucking what?
Speaker: 2
01:35:29
Right. Flood of requests from innocent people perhaps.
Speaker: 1
01:35:32
Or or people that want you know, maybe they’re guilty, and they wanna take a shot. Who knows? But isn’t that worth the price of of, you know, wrongfully incarcerating people? And, you know, why is it’s it’s there’s so much politics that gets wound up in this. I don’t you know, and and for the life of me, I don’t understand why, you know, it doesn’t see the light of day more.
Speaker: 1
01:35:58
I testified before the house judiciary committee in Florida in connection with the Perlmutter case when their DNA was stolen. Alright? Their DNA was stolen, and they were wrongfully accused of a ai, like Laurie Perlmutter. And I testified before the house judiciary committee that stealing someone’s DNA as a private citizen should be a felony. Alright? It was a misdemeanor.
Speaker: 1
01:36:27
And, you know, it was 1 of my finer moments of oration, I think, because I got a 16 o vote. And I had a really interesting discussion. It’s recorded. I should find it and and send it to you ai. But there were Republicans that asked me, hey. What is it that we can do to help you more?
Speaker: 1
01:36:55
Because this story is crazy. And I said, well, there is something that you can do as part of this bill. We would like to make it not only a felony, but give defense attorneys that have a good faith basis to believe that it’s an alternative suspect’s DNA, the same right to collect that DNA as law enforcement.
Speaker: 1
01:37:17
And if they make a showing to the court that they have a basis to believe that this is an alternative suspect. So I had a former police officer who was a member of the judiciary committee say, look. I was a cop, and we used to do it all the time. And his exact quote was was good for the goose is good for the gander, and I think if you can make a good face showing, I wanna support that.
Speaker: 1
01:37:41
When it came time for the bill to go to the senate, the guy that was sponsoring the bill, wasn’t responding to me. I sai, we got overwhelming support not only to get the bill, you know, made from a misdemeanor into a felony, but also to allow defense attorneys criminal defense attorneys with an adequate showing, to collect the DNA of alternative suspects.
Speaker: 1
01:38:10
And I said, so we’d like to add that meh. And he just stopped responding to me. And ai, I got him on the phone, and I said, what what’s the story? Why aren’t you responding to this? And he goes, it’s not happening, Josh.
Speaker: 1
01:38:22
It’s just not gonna happen. And I said, why? He goes, I’m not gonna go into that, but it’s not happening. So, you know, obviously, there was some political pushback to it. He just wasn’t gonna have that part of this bill.
Speaker: 1
01:38:34
Sai, you know, I don’t know what else you can do to push these issues, you know, other than get out there in the public and bang the drum about it and try to get people to pay attention. And this, I think, is a rare opportunity because it gives people it allows them to invest in this.
Speaker: 1
01:38:59
It allows them to see what the evidence is and actually, you know, write a letter and say, hey. I saw the testimony of the secret service agent, of this FBI agent under oath in these post conviction proceedings. Why can’t how what more would you need? You have the power to to exonerate these guys and end this 30 year long nightmare for them.
Speaker: 1
01:39:22
Why not
Speaker: 2
01:39:23
do it? Yeah. Why not? Well, I’m hoping that this is 1 of those cases where the people will get activated. And, the way you laid it out is so crazy. I mean, and with more evidence online that that people have access to, I’m sure there’s a bunch of people who are gonna react to that.
Speaker: 2
01:39:41
I’m curious to see what the response is gonna be.
Speaker: 1
01:39:44
Yeah. Free the Ohio 4. At free the Ohio 4 on, Twitter. And, you know, like, I’m not a big Twitter guy or I can’t say Twitter anymore. I’m I’m not a big meh guy.
Speaker: 2
01:39:55
Yeah. Say Twitter.
Speaker: 1
01:39:56
Yeah. So, I mean, I guess Sai should get more into it. Yeah. We did. We we threw this up. Hopefully, that that that the numbers start, going up.
Speaker: 2
01:40:06
Oh, they will. As soon as it gets published, I’m sure we’ll get a chance to see. It’s gonna be interesting to see how many bots lock onto it.
Speaker: 1
01:40:12
Yeah. And then it would be my it would be my dream to 1 day have the Ohio 4 sitting here and have a a toast.
Speaker: 2
01:40:23
Yeah. Wow. What a story they have. Yep. Jesus Christ.
Speaker: 1
01:40:28
And, you know, the the sad part about it is is, like, I hope that people don’t say, well, there were drug dealers at the time and, you know, again, that’s not because you commit 1 crime doesn’t mean that
Speaker: 2
01:40:42
Doesn’t mean you’re a murderer. Also, like, it’s circumstances are arya different for every fucking human being. And, for you to think that there’s no way that I would do a crime, especially a crime like that, Like, are you sure? Are you sure if you were in their shoes, if you lived their life? You know, we we all like to think that everybody’s life is the same as ours.
Speaker: 2
01:41:05
We only have 1 life that we can kind of reference. When we look at other people’s lives, we kind of imagine what it would be like to live their life. We don’t know. People do desperate things in desperate times depending upon your environment, depending upon how you grew up, what your influences were, what trauma you experienced, whether you’re incarcerated at a young age.
Speaker: 2
01:41:26
No 1 has any understanding of that other than the people that get trapped in the system. They just don’t. You know, it’s tough on crime. Yes. I think you should be tough on crime. I think you should arrest criminals and evil people that do terrible things that make society ai. Awful.
Speaker: 1
01:41:41
Yes. So do I.
Speaker: 2
01:41:42
But, also, you should definitely not arrest innocent people. You should definitely not imprison them and then punish someone who’s trying to say, hey. The reason why these people are in jail is because I told a lie.
Speaker: 1
01:41:55
Yeah. I mean, I don’t get the threat of of punishing them. And, you know, you I I hope you have the the type of influence and following that just listen to that perspective, folks. Right? You know, I have, in the last few years, developed a way deeper understanding of how relative trauma can be from individual to individual.
Speaker: 1
01:42:19
I did not realize trauma that I had suffered until I started to travel those roads, and then how it can, impact behavior. So I’m trying to make better decisions about how I judge things because I don’t wanna say I don’t make I’m not judgmental. We’re all judgmental.
Speaker: 2
01:42:42
Everyone’s judgmental. You have
Speaker: 1
01:42:43
to be
Speaker: 2
01:42:43
that’s how you survive in life. Right.
Speaker: 1
01:42:45
I have to form judgments, but I’m trying to make more educated judgments rather than judging someone based on, you know, not having a complete picture of what they ai have been through and also not being able to put myself as best I can behind their eyeballs or in their brain. Right. It’s hard unless you really make an investment. And I think the easy thing to do is to make a quick judgment and keep it moving. Yes. Right?
Speaker: 1
01:43:16
And I think that words can be an excuse. The deep dive is too, much of a time investment, too difficult. And I’ve had to understand behaviors that I never thought I would ever have to consider. And I can tell you, at least in my experience, it forces you to become a more compassionate human being, a more understanding human being.
Speaker: 1
01:43:40
You get to know yourself better. Because if you’re not just constantly trying to figure out more about yourself and others, what the fuck are we doing here?
Speaker: 2
01:43:49
Right. What the fuck are we doing here? Yeah. Yeah. If you’re not trying to figure out more about yourself, I mean, if you’re the most enlightened person alive, tell us how you did it. You know? You don’t you don’t have any searching to do anymore? Tell us what you did because, I never met anybody
Speaker: 1
01:44:04
like that. I, I can’t thank you enough, because, again, it, it’s a rare occurrence these days that to be unaffected by the outside noise. And I promise you, I’ll do better in making sure that I’m a little bit more, plugged into the help people are getting when they get out, whether they have done it or not.
Speaker: 1
01:44:32
We’ve had 2 recent resentencings. 1 guy was ai and blinded in bryden. And, he’s in a wheelchair, and he can’t see. And part of the reason he was paralyzed is because of poor medical care that he was getting. It was a difficult decision to make initially because I sai, shah, another resentencing, a guy that was found guilty.
Speaker: 1
01:44:57
And then I saw the horrific medical treatment he was getting, and I said, you know, this just isn’t right. You don’t just throw out a human being like this. And what threat is he in a wheelchair blind? But, you know, I have to do a good job of making sure that people are getting the attention and care they need. It takes resources.
Speaker: 1
01:45:16
And, you know, we’re thankful to everybody that continues to reach out and support any of these causes. The Perlmutter Center, you know, the Midwest Innocence Project is a great 1. The Ohio Innocence Project, those are all satellite projects. But the Freedom Clinic at the Perlmutter Center, we’ve had some terrific, folks, including the Perlmutter that have given us the resources we need to make a difference.
Speaker: 1
01:45:43
So I just I have your, you’re you’re in my I’m in your debt internally. You’re
Speaker: 2
01:45:51
not. You’re not. I appreciate you very much. And, my thing about the outside noise is, you should never put any, effort or time or focus into something that has no net benefit. There’s no benefit in the outside noise. It doesn’t do especially if you’re an introspective person.
Speaker: 2
01:46:11
If you’re a person thinks everything you do is awesome, maybe it’s good to see people shit on you. Maybe it’s good to see that some people don’t like you. Maybe it’s good. Maybe it’s good to hear other people’s perspectives kinda like you put your ego in check. But if you’re a person that’s introspective, and I know you are, if you’re a person that is hard on yourself when you make mistakes, no one’s harder on me than me.
Speaker: 2
01:46:34
I’m very hard on me.
Speaker: 1
01:46:36
Oh, I know someone that’s that’s as hard on themselves as you. He’s sitting across from you.
Speaker: 2
01:46:41
But it’s, course correct. You know, if you if if you look inward and you don’t like what you’re doing or what you’ve said or who you are, don’t do that again.
Speaker: 1
01:46:51
1 of the best things I did in the wake of this whole Sheldon Johnson incident is I turn meh off on Instagram and turn my account private. I think I’ll make it public again after today because I sana generate support for the Ohio 4. And but turning comments off is a nice thing because you can’t believe the good stuff or the bad stuff. You just stay forward.
Speaker: 2
01:47:19
Especially for people in the public. The good stuff, you can get what they call audience capture. You know, you have enough people leaning you in a certain direction or giving you praise for a certain thing. You start doing more of that. You know? And this is a manipulative tactic that’s used online, both for and against people.
Speaker: 1
01:47:37
Hey, man. Look. When I was on my way over here today, I was walking into the Uber. A guy at the hotel goes, I hope you’re going to talk that talk over on the over on the j over on the JRE. And I said, yeah. I am. And it turns out that he went to high school with Rodney Reed, who’s on death row here in Texas.
Speaker: 1
01:48:00
And I got into an interesting conversation with him. He’s like, man, his older brother could pop and lock. I said, yeah. He goes, man, this motherfucker was popping and locking all the time. He was telling me about him breakdancing, and he’s like, no. For real.
Speaker: 1
01:48:17
You know, shining a light on this stuff gives a lot of people out here hope. And I told them that, you know, I wrote a letter to the legislator here in Texas that’s reconsidering that case. Sai it’s just real cool, man, to get to get people behind it that really care about this stuff, and, you know, the public can really help out.
Speaker: 1
01:48:40
You don’t have to be a lawyer. You don’t have to be a psych psychologist. You don’t have to be a therapist. You know, pressure does break pipes. So reaching out to JD Tomlinson and making noise between now December 31st.
Speaker: 2
01:48:53
And as you said, talking about things on this podcast have actually exonerated people.
Speaker: 1
01:48:58
Yeah. I thought this 1 was probably better off just me. Let me think real carefully about about the next Yeah. Ai guy.
Speaker: 2
01:49:08
Jamie and I were both talking about this. You think he’s gonna bring somebody in?
Speaker: 1
01:49:13
Fuck.
Speaker: 2
01:49:14
You certainly can. I mean, ai can. Meh. Hey.
Speaker: 1
01:49:17
Listen.
Speaker: 2
01:49:17
Next time around. And and if it’s the Ohio 4, great.
Speaker: 1
01:49:20
Hey. Listen. The guys that have been on here are all thriving. Yeah. Bruce Ai Yeah. Works at the Queens defender’s office. He has not been without challenges. Trust me. But he’s actually going I’ll I’ll leave you with this. Bruce is going to, hope hope that parole lets him because we’re still working on his full exoneration even though he was granted clemency on it on the innocence claim.
Speaker: 1
01:49:47
Bruce is going to Nairobi and Uganda, to speak to prisoners there.
Speaker: 2
01:49:53
Woah.
Speaker: 1
01:49:54
And he’s a Ai advocate for the queen’s defenders. Derek continues to be, a whirlwind of positive activity. He’s just amazing. He’s getting people out left and right. Robert, Robert Johnson, who we had on, is continuing to do amazing things down in New Orleans, and and all of them are just thriving. They’re doing well.
Speaker: 1
01:50:19
Not enough attention is given to the the happy endings. Right? Then we give to the bad stuff. But
Speaker: 2
01:50:26
Of course. I mean, that’s just how people are, you know. Why is that? You know, with the first of all, they’re afraid of ai, you know. So they, they highlight the the instances where things are bad and things do go bad. And they don’t they don’t wanna look at the disgusting aspects of the legal system.
Speaker: 2
01:50:46
They want people wanna live life through rose colored glasses and have this perspective that the the bad people go to jail.
Speaker: 1
01:50:53
But it’s not just about crime. Most of the headlines that get the most clicks are about someone having a fucking affair, somebody dying. Right. There’s not a lot of triumph in the news.
Speaker: 2
01:51:04
Well, people like when other people’s lives suck
Speaker: 1
01:51:06
Why not?
Speaker: 2
01:51:07
Because it makes them not think about the suck of their own life. That’s why they like it when a celebrity falls, like a p PDD gets arrested because they see these people living these lives they could never imagine, like yachts and Rolls Royces and all that shit. And then they see them get taken down ai, yeah. Because they were, you know, envious.
Speaker: 2
01:51:29
And it’s also ai it’s a part of our culture to celebrate wealth in the most disgusting and extravagant ways. You know, like, I mean, how many social media personalities have emerged just complete just all about look at all the stuff I have, look at all the things I have, look at all the famous people I hang out with, look at all the girls, look at the yacht, look at the car, look at the jet, look at the this, look at the that, Look at all the things you can’t get.
Speaker: 2
01:51:55
And when those people get got, people love it.
Speaker: 1
01:51:57
You know who you know who, folks are probably clamoring Meh Scott? Who? If that’s the basis, and I don’t agree. Who’s that fucking guy? He’s always got his shirt off. He’s always taking pictures on yachts and shooting machine guns.
Speaker: 2
01:52:14
Oh, ram bills, Aaron.
Speaker: 1
01:52:15
Oh, man. Yeah. I’d like to I’d like to peek into his brain 1 day.
Speaker: 2
01:52:22
Yeah. It’s probably a lot going on in there. It’s, it’s interesting how people do become famous for that though. It’s ai showing your stuff makes you famous. Showing a life that other people can’t really imagine ever living.
Speaker: 1
01:52:38
But think of the hypocrisy and the and the inner conflict and turmoil that that exposes. Mhmm. So in other words, we want people to fail that’s somehow innate in many of us. It makes us feel better about ourselves. Yet you will have 3,000,000 followers or 10 or 15 following someone that and I’m not talking about that ai. Whoever Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
01:53:04
Who is clearly just selling their looks or their lifestyle or whatever it is. So meh we’re drawn to it Mhmm. And we wanna watch it. Mhmm. And then when the person fails, we wanna fucking devour them to the point where there are carcass laying in the street.
Speaker: 2
01:53:21
Sure. Celebrity marriages and divorces, that’s another big 1. Love it when celebrities get divorced. You’re miserable too.
Speaker: 1
01:53:28
Do you love it?
Speaker: 2
01:53:29
No. No.
Speaker: 1
01:53:30
People love it.
Speaker: 2
01:53:31
I I find it fascinating when people keep getting married and keep getting divorced. It’s goddamn. How many times can J. Lo get married before the next guy ai like, hey, I don’t know if this is gonna work out.
Speaker: 1
01:53:41
Yeah. Is it really Ben Affleck that’s the problem? Who’s the problem?
Speaker: 2
01:53:45
Well, he’s certainly a problem as well.
Speaker: 1
01:53:47
That guy Mark Anthony seems like a nice fucking guy.
Speaker: 2
01:53:49
Seems like a sweetheart when she married a bunch of dudes. But, you know, whatever. She’s obviously a lot of work. That’s you want a diva? Good luck. That requires a lot of work.
Speaker: 1
01:54:00
I just wanna I just wanna understand it all. I just sana, like, me me and ai brother, I’ll sometimes go, what’s it all about?
Speaker: 2
01:54:09
It’s definitely not all about caring whether or not J. Lo gets divorced again.
Speaker: 1
01:54:14
You know what I find difficult? I’ve been playing with this idea and something that I’m writing right now, and it couldn’t be more prescient than than right now is that this notion of what the truth is. I don’t know what like, we we had it happened to us right here. Are are some of the swing states requiring ID or all of them?
Speaker: 1
01:54:39
It’s hard to keep a grasp on reality and the truth these days because there’s information
Speaker: 2
01:54:45
Right.
Speaker: 1
01:54:46
That is intravenously injected into your veins Mhmm. It seems like. So I have a hard time knowing what’s true anymore.
Speaker: 2
01:54:54
Well, the the news itself outright lies. It’s not like a conversation like we have where Jamie checks it in real ai, and I saw a thing that said the swing state or the, the states that required Novartis ID are the ones that she won. She won other ones as well. But when you, have the news saying things so they have researched it. They do know that it’s a lie.
Speaker: 2
01:55:16
This is not like a live conversation ai we’re having where I didn’t know we’re gonna talk about that at all nor nor did you. It just spontaneously came up. These people are putting narratives out there that are just flat out ai, and they’re doing it all the time. I mean, Obama did it during the campaign where he repeated that lie about Donald Trump talking about white supremacists saying they’re very fine people on both sides.
Speaker: 2
01:55:41
So just a flat out lie.
Speaker: 1
01:55:43
And that was the, the Unite the Right?
Speaker: 2
01:55:46
Well, it was all about the statue, the statues of civil war people being taken down, and he’s saying, you I’m not talking literally sai, Ai not talking about white supremacists and the KKK. They should be condemned. He said, I’m talking about people that
Speaker: 1
01:56:04
Did he say that in the same
Speaker: 2
01:56:05
Oh, yeah. Oh, you can see it. So
Speaker: 1
01:56:07
weird.
Speaker: 2
01:56:07
But go to
Speaker: 1
01:56:08
I never I never know that.
Speaker: 2
01:56:09
JRE companion Ram. Because on that page, there is what Obama sai, and then on the same video, there is what Trump
Speaker: 1
01:56:20
actually said.
Speaker: 2
01:56:21
And it’s disgusting. It’s a disgusting ai. And it’s a guy who’s as and he’s talking about George Washington. He said George Washington had slaves. He said Thomas Jefferson would take down Thomas let’s play it. So you could see it here.
Speaker: 0
01:56:37
Then that there were very fine people on both sides of a white supremacist rally. Jumps down as you and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group excuse meh. Excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did.
Speaker: 0
01:56:59
You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of to them a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert e Lee to another name.
Speaker: 1
01:57:10
Do I pass you this?
Speaker: 0
01:57:11
No. George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? Sai will George Washington now lose his status? Are we gonna take down, excuse me, are we gonna take down are we gonna take down statues to George ai about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him?
Speaker: 2
01:57:30
I do love him.
Speaker: 0
01:57:31
Okay. Good. Are we gonna take down the statue? Because he was a major slave owner. Now we’re gonna take down his statue. So you know what? It’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people, and I’m not talking about the neo nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally.
Speaker: 0
01:57:48
But you had many people in that group other than neo nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now
Speaker: 1
01:57:59
Sai see see, that’s crazy. I have never Ai have never seen that last part of it. Yeah. So here so here is my struggle with the truth on full display. I’ve never seen that part because Ai
Speaker: 2
01:58:10
news has said that lie over and over and over and over and over again that the news, the mainstream corporate controlled news that wanted this narrative that Donald Trump was a Nazi sai that over and over and over again. They repeated it. They compared him up until the election.
Speaker: 2
01:58:28
Joy Reid was literally comparing him to Stalin, Hitler, and Saloni, and spent a whole piece describing right wing dictators that he is going to be a right wing dictator just like Hitler, just like Stalin. This is the lie of the media. So what this is 1 of the reasons why it’s so hard to tell the truth. It should be illegal to do that.
Speaker: 2
01:58:53
It should be illegal to say that because it’s not true, and you’re changing the perspective of millions of people, especially low information voters that look at Obama like a thing from the past when time was sane, when the world was normal, a brilliant guy who is the president.
Speaker: 2
01:59:12
If this brilliant guy is willing to lie for in front of everybody Ram.
Speaker: 1
01:59:16
But here’s the thing. There’s no question. They all ai. Trump Ram included. We talked about that earlier. He lies also. That this is ai the the problem.
Speaker: 2
01:59:28
But did he lie about Bryden? About what what Biden did? Did he lie about any of that? No.
Speaker: 1
01:59:36
He’s lied plenty.
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01:59:37
I’m sure. For sure. Ai in the context of a campaign where you’re completely distorting the perspective of the person you’re running against, not just who they are, but what they’ve done and what they’ve said and what they stand for.
Speaker: 1
01:59:51
He does the same thing, though.
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01:59:52
But did he do that with Biden?
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01:59:54
I believe he did.
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01:59:55
How did he do it?
Speaker: 1
01:59:57
I think that there were many times where he would accuse him of having created the problem at the border, that it was all his creation. People don’t seem to remember that when Trump was president, his border policies of separating families at the border was not great.
Speaker: 2
02:00:21
It was not great, but do you understand Obama had those exact same policies?
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02:00:24
I’m not disagreeing with that. I’m just saying you can distort it.
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02:00:27
This is just what they do with children when children are when a parent’s arrested, they separate the families. This is
Speaker: 1
02:00:34
It was a it well, that that happened under Obama, but under Trump. Right. It wasn’t just separating the children. It was separating them for indefinite periods.
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02:00:43
Sai Is there a difference in the way Obama handled it in the separation?
Speaker: 1
02:00:46
I I’m not gonna speak to something out of ai.
Speaker: 2
02:00:48
Right. So that’s a problem. Right? So it’s a problem if you’re accusing him of that.
Speaker: 1
02:00:51
Here’s the here’s the thing. I think they all lie. I don’t have I don’t I didn’t follow it closely enough to say I think
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02:00:56
they all ai too, but there’s not a thing like that that I can point to where he was saying something about Biden that was factually incorrect?
Speaker: 1
02:01:04
Here’s the thing that turned me off completely about the election this time and why I said, fuck it. I’m voting for Jill Stein, a physician that probably is the least qualified of anyone, only as, like, my form of saying, I’ll protest it.
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02:01:16
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:01:16
You know, Kamala Harris during the debate said that there’s not a single, it was some remark,
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02:01:24
but there’s
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02:01:24
no single American soldier deployed. And and then I saw videos of American soldiers in a war zone watching it like a in parallel reality. What the fuck is she talking about?
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02:01:35
Shoot Dan Crenshaw post about that?
Speaker: 1
02:01:36
Where are we right now? They were in a fucking foxhole or a tent.
Speaker: 2
02:01:40
Dan Crenshaw posted all of the soldiers, all the the numbers that we have that see if we can find that post. It’s on his Ram. In response to that, you know, Dan Crenshaw who lost his eye in war Yeah. He was Navy SEAL.
Speaker: 1
02:01:54
He was the 1 that was circulating the clip about of me being critical of her.
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02:01:57
That’s a good clip.
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02:01:58
Yeah. I own clip. I stand by it.
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02:02:00
Yeah. And you were correct. I mean and then the crazy thing is you you had a conversation with her about that.
Speaker: 1
02:02:07
Yeah. Well, it was on Zoom, and she couldn’t answer a question then, and she can’t answer a question now. She still refused to answer a fucking question. That was the most frustrating thing. I mean, how about saying, look. Obviously, what happened at the border is a crisis. It was not handled well.
Speaker: 1
02:02:27
Here is what I plan to do different. It’s it’s outside of of at least her capacity or willingness to do something like that.
Speaker: 2
02:02:38
But it was also the complicit nature of that. The the media was in on it because they were fact checking Trump constantly. They didn’t fact check her on vatsal, something that should be immediately fact checked.
Speaker: 1
02:02:50
Especially during a debate. I agree
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02:02:52
with that. How do you not know? How do you not know that? You’re either lying or you don’t know that we have troops deployed in force on.
Speaker: 1
02:03:00
Maybe you’re right. Maybe it is that Trump repeats things that he heard that are moronic and nonsensical sometimes, and that takes away from the great he can do.
Speaker: 2
02:03:10
He definitely does that.
Speaker: 1
02:03:11
Right? Right? Like, talking about people eating dogs and cats and the election being rigged, all sort of baseless shit takes away from the fact that, you know, the things that stick out to and it’s ai, get out of your own way, bro. He pardoned Jack Johnson. He, he pardoned, 1 of my clients.
Speaker: 1
02:03:30
I think that he he has done more and cared more about criminal justice reform than certainly than any other president in my lifetime.
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02:03:39
No 1 ever wants to highlight the good things.
Speaker: 0
02:03:42
Yeah.
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02:03:42
That that ai
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02:03:43
done. That’s why I just did it. Yeah. And I I it’s frustrating to me because it’s ai, just don’t listen to the last thing everyone told you because you can be great. You can I mean, the fact that he does what he wants and says what he wants and gets elected
Speaker: 2
02:03:57
Look at this? This is what Dan Crenshaw responded with. No US troops active combat zones, question mark. How did ABC let Kamala get away with that during the debate? US sailors and marines are fighting off Houthi attacks in Yemen. Over 3,000 400 troops are engaged in Iraq and Syria. We have forces in Western Africa battling terrorists.
Speaker: 2
02:04:16
Just this year, 3 US soldiers were killed and 40 injured in Jordan by an Iranian made drone. Nearly 1,000 troops are still in deployed in Syria, and 2,500 remain in Iraq under Operation Inherent Resolve. So that’s crazy.
Speaker: 1
02:04:32
Yeah.
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02:04:32
It is. Thing to sai. But it’s also it just shows you how corrupt the relationship is between the media and what we get to see. It’s corrupt. It was there’s a bunch of people that had decided that they were going to fact check Trump continually and not fact check her, and they were doing this because they wanted her to win.
Speaker: 2
02:04:53
Yeah. I mean, listen. The most I have I have and this is
Speaker: 1
02:04:55
why I mentioned, you know, it’s hard to know what the truth is. Right. The reason why I posted all the exhibits, the reason why I put the letter up, and the reason why I put the contact information up is that when when you have a transcript, and you have, you know, actual documentary evidence, that’s hard to argue with.
Speaker: 1
02:05:22
Right. It’s not a ai. It’s not a clip. So I feel like maybe part of what appeals to me about this work is trying to get closer to the truth, a truth that is a bit more provable. You know, I would probably been very happy as a mathematician if I was any good at math. I stink at it.
Speaker: 1
02:05:41
But I think that there is it’s very difficult to understand. You know, I feel like I’m sitting here, and I feel manipulated by the fact that I never and and it’s really on me that I didn’t go and watch the entirety of that comment.
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02:06:00
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:06:00
Because I literally don’t think I’ve ever listened to the part where he says, obviously, the Neo Nazis and, you know, the people that were there for the wrong reasons need to be condemned. You know, when I was watching recently, I was talking to to the great Dubini about this. He’s he pointed out to me that comment about, Liz Cheney. Mhmm.
Speaker: 1
02:06:23
And then he’s like, go watch the full clip.
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02:06:26
Right. It’s another 1.
Speaker: 1
02:06:27
And I watched the full clip, and I was like
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02:06:30
It’s enraging.
Speaker: 1
02:06:30
This is so out of fucking context. So then you start to wonder, well, how much is my opinion of him been formed ai, my concern about other people lashing out at me? Yes. I mean, you should hear the shit I got when I, when I spoke ill of Kamala Harris by, you know, I guess call them the left.
Speaker: 1
02:06:55
I I you know, and it was, like, infuriating to me. You know? So I don’t politics to me is too it’s too much of you know, you have to serve so many different interests that you sort of forget who you are Yes. And what you stand for.
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02:07:14
Yes.
Speaker: 1
02:07:14
So that’s what turns me off about it. And, you know, I don’t think that that’ll change. That’s why I sort of shifted to this is the most I’ve talked about politics in probably 5 years. That’s why I’ve shifted to let me just put my head down and get to work on what Yeah. I can work on.
Speaker: 2
02:07:29
Yes. Well, I think that’s very practical. And I think what you said is very important for people to understand that a lot of what people say, they say it because they don’t want people to attack them. They say it because they think that if they say it, it will clear them. They’ll be okay.
Speaker: 2
02:07:47
If you say you support x, you might not even support x, but if you say you support x, you’re not gonna get attacked and the right people will leave you alone or agree with you and appreciate you or praise you. Thank you for saying that. There’s a lot of that out there. There’s a lot of people that don’t speak their mind.
Speaker: 2
02:08:03
Do you know how many artists that have reached out to me that arya, like, fucking hippies, meh? Like like artists, like musicians, comedians that thanked me for endorsing Trump because they can’t do it. They said they want to, but they don’t wanna be attacked. They can’t say it. They think the country is going in the wrong direction.
Speaker: 2
02:08:25
They think that this control of social media by the government, which we would have had pretty much fully if it wasn’t for Elon buying Twitter. Mhmm. But this is a dangerous precedent to sai, whether it’s a right wing government or a left wing government. And that what you see that’s happening in the UK where people are being imprisoned for tweets and Facebook posts.
Speaker: 1
02:08:44
Yeah. In in the u in the UK is the part that’s mind bending about it too.
Speaker: 2
02:08:48
Mind bending. The whole thing is nuts, and it’s a dangerous path that we were on. We were on that path. Trump has vowed to have free speech become a very important part of what he’s standing for, and that this censoring of information needs to stop and that we need to stop all government influence in what people have to say.
Speaker: 1
02:09:12
Yeah. Look, I I Vatsal alone. That’s that’s a that shouldn’t be as revolutionary as it is.
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02:09:18
I know. It should be a core tenant of what I mean, it’s essentially the first amendment.
Speaker: 1
02:09:21
You know? And I and I think it’s so transferable to what I do in this context because a lot of the the reluctance of of prosecutors not to do the right thing or what their conscience tells them is the fear of the backlash. Yes. How will it hurt my chances in reelection? Of course. What will And so that’s what I hate about politics is you serve so many masters.
Speaker: 2
02:09:47
Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:09:48
And, it’s a dirty business. It’s a dirty and you gotta have you gotta have nuts of steel.
Speaker: 2
02:09:53
Or you have to be a fucking sociopath. It’s either or, you know. You have to be a a blindly ambitious sociopath who can weave your way through these sort of social and political relationships and to get to the top for what? For what?
Speaker: 1
02:10:09
What do
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02:10:10
you I mean, imagine if 1 of those person does wind up becoming president that has no ram no real thought or no real care about the country, no real ambition other than the the blind serving of their own success.
Speaker: 1
02:10:23
Well, I think that that’s what for people that are so ai it’s hard to explain if you didn’t live in New York. For people that are just like, oh my god. What’s the next 4 years gonna be like? And, you know, what like like it’s a funeral. Like, get up and do something all 4 years that you think is gonna help make society better. You do that.
Speaker: 1
02:10:50
Whether it’s getting out and knocking on doors and making your for whatever you’re passionate about, not just when an election is coming up, but get out and knock on doors, get out and get involved in some organization that you believe in, do something that you think will help lend itself to bettering society in some way.
Speaker: 1
02:11:12
What happens is every 4 years, there’s this polarization Mhmm. And people get on 1 side or the other, and they complain and bitch and then they wallow in it too often for too long a time. I think that the people that actually make the most change happen are the ones that can sit and talk with people that might have different beliefs than them and don’t make them other than.
Speaker: 1
02:11:37
Absolutely. Right? I mean Absolutely. Anytime I’ve made an emotional decision in business, personally, it’s never gone well for me.
Speaker: 2
02:11:45
Right.
Speaker: 1
02:11:45
So people are gonna have different points of view than you. I was talking to my cousin about it, and I was trying to help her explain that just because you voted for Trump, that doesn’t make you bad or I said, you know, her whole thing was, well, if you have daughters, there’s no way you can vote for him.
Speaker: 1
02:12:04
I said, here’s the fundamental flaw in how you’re looking at this. There are some people that are pro life. K? That doesn’t make them wrong. That makes you have a different opinion than them. You have a disagreement.
Speaker: 1
02:12:20
And if the basis of your vote is that you’re pro choice and they’re pro life, okay, have a disagreement. You know? I don’t I just don’t understand how a singular issue like that and I understand that. Listen.
Speaker: 2
02:12:38
I understand it from a woman’s perspective.
Speaker: 1
02:12:40
Yeah. Ai a father of 2 daughters. Yeah. I, I talk to my wife about it often, you know, especially going to Florida where the laws on abortion ain’t the same as they are in New York. And I, I understand it from a woman’s perspective completely, and I actually disagree with, you know, overturning Roe versus Wade, but you cannot be that myopic. You just can’t.
Speaker: 1
02:13:05
Because if you’re that myopic, you’re gonna then find yourself in a corner on 1 issue. And life is a little bit more robust than that, isn’t it?
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02:13:16
It’s more nuanced. Yeah.
Speaker: 1
02:13:18
Yeah. That was the better word. Yeah. It is more nuanced.
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02:13:22
Well, listen, my brother. I love you to death. I appreciate
Speaker: 1
02:13:24
what you do, man.
Speaker: 2
02:13:26
Ai think the world’s a better place because of what you do. I really do. And I think you’ve changed a lot of people’s perspective on the legal system. And I’m glad that we didn’t let what happened with Sheldon change vatsal, and, I think there’s just so much more great work to be done.
Speaker: 1
02:13:41
Well, ai my continued profound gratitude, to continuing to let me tell these stories, I promise the next time I bring a guest on, they will be well they will be they will be vetted. Yeah. The guests will be vetted a lot more thoroughly.
Speaker: 2
02:13:59
And, you know, there’s no way you could have known.
Speaker: 1
02:14:01
There’s no way I could have known. And, you know, it’s interesting because I was for 48 hours, I felt what it was like. I felt what it was like to be a headline. Mhmm. And then I was like, this sucks
Speaker: 2
02:14:15
for the wrong reasons.
Speaker: 1
02:14:16
It was like Well,
Speaker: 2
02:14:17
I know you were in a dark place, but I’m glad you got out of it.
Speaker: 1
02:14:20
Yeah. And it’s not about me. Takes time. Yeah. Yeah. And I I just I’m really, really, really appreciative of, of this. And, you know, if that can’t shake the foundation of this forum, I think we’re gonna just keep on making great change happen, and, hopefully, we we free the Ohio 4 and keep on moving.
Speaker: 2
02:14:44
Yeah. And I hope we do do a podcast 1 day with them.
Speaker: 1
02:14:47
Keep loving it. Keep loved
Speaker: 2
02:14:48
you too. Alright. Goodbye, everybody ai.
