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Solana’s Anatoly Yakovenko on Crypto’s Next Era: Quantum, AI, and the Future of Money Podcast Episode Description
(0:00) Introducing Solana Co-Founder Anatoly Yakovenko
(0:55) Crypto under Trump vs Biden, stablecoin boom, what it means for US treasuries
(5:56) Traditional exchanges using blockchain vs crypto-native exchanges, how crypto gets mass market
(10:02) Most exciting crypto verticals outside of finance: social, IP rights, real estate, CLARITY Act
(15:57) Quantum computing, AI’s impact on crypto
(18:48) Bitcoin: resiliency, market cornering, risks, future
(22:45) Ethereum, Visa/Mastercard
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OKX – The new way to build your crypto portfolio and use it in daily life. We call it the new money app. https://www.okx.com/
Google Cloud – The next generation of unicorns is building on Google Cloud’s industry-leading, fully integrated AI stack: infrastructure, platform, models, agents, and data. https://cloud.google.com/
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Circle – The America-based company behind USDC — a fully-reserved, enterprise-grade stablecoin at the core of the emerging internet financial system. https://www.circle.com/
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BVNK – Building stablecoin-powered financial infrastructure that helps businesses send, store, and spend value instantly, anywhere in the world. https://www.bvnk.com/
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Solana’s Anatoly Yakovenko on Crypto’s Next Era: Quantum, AI, and the Future of Money Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
Speaker: 0
00:02
Anatoly is the CEO of a little crypto project known as Solana.
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00:07
One of the fastest growing blockchains in the world.
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00:09
As CEO of Solana Labs, he’s driving meh three innovation.
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00:13
BlackRock, the world’s largest asset manager, expanded its $1,700,000,000 tokenized money market fund to Solana. Why don’t we all switch to Solana? The Solana sounds like it’s actually commercial, and the other ai sound like that they’re antique.
Speaker: 2
00:27
Everybody in the world should be your customer. Crypto will eventually win. It’s inevitable.
Speaker: 0
00:33
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Solana cofounder Anatoly Yakovenko. There he is.
Speaker: 3
00:47
Oh, man.
Speaker: 2
00:47
Thanks for having me. You doing? Thank you. Welcome. Thank you.
Speaker: 0
00:55
How much of a difference has David Sachs made in the first six months as crypto czar for your industry?
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01:01
Oh, it’s been incredible. I meh, I think it it’s night and day. I don’t know if the industry would have survived another four years of the Gensler regime. The Genius Act, I think, is going to unlock, you know, people estimate 1 to $10,000,000,000,000 worth of stablecoins, that are sana be on public permissionless chains.
Speaker: 2
01:23
So if you kind of look at those charts, who owns treasuries, and be with China, Japan, etcetera, countries. Right now, I think Tether is somewhere around number five. I think within five years, the Internet is going to be the largest holder of US treasuries. Yeah. And and vatsal such a scale that I ai, you know, I’m an engineer. I cannot honestly comprehend how that’s sana change finance, but I think vatsal be transformative.
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01:46
Ai, downside? I mean, are are there concerns there as well with that huge impact and democratization? Or are you kind of a, you know, libertarian, let the chips fall where they may, so to speak?
Speaker: 2
02:00
I think, it’s a huge opportunity to really accelerate American innovation and spread American finance around the world. I think we actually have the best financial system in the world. It’s the most trusted, the most robust, the best regulatory environment for for what it’s worth as well. But it was built after after World War Sai before the internet.
Speaker: 2
02:21
So its APIs are kind of like a sai machine based. What crypto is allowing, I think, is this new technology stack built on top of the internet that’s completely Western aligned. It’s for transparency. It’s for transparency. It’s for capitalism.
Speaker: 2
02:35
But now we can actually interface Western US based finance to the rest of the world. And I think America is going to benefit primarily from this, like more so than Ai
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02:46
dissimilar to our
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02:52
getting Solana off the ground, how much of it was, a technical and architectural vision that you had versus maybe a set of trade offs that you were trying to solve that ETH didn’t fill or Bitcoin didn’t fill. And you said, I’m just sana try and do this.
Speaker: 2
03:09
I I think, you know, I can’t speak for all founders, but, you know, I think founders are driven by kind of a crazy vision. They have to be a little bit insane. So my insane vision is always this idea, like, imagine finance twenty to fifty years from now, the science fiction version of finance.
Speaker: 2
03:26
What I imagine is a single giant ledger, a single computer for every market in the world. That means it’s available in Nairobi, in New York, in London, in Singapore. And all of these things are synchronized at the round trip time of speed of ai through fiber around the world or, you know, through Elon ai.
Speaker: 2
03:46
That’s one hundred and twenty milliseconds.
Speaker: 4
03:48
Yeah.
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03:48
So a dollar can be in New York, in London, in Singapore, in Nairobi in one hundred and twenty milliseconds. So velocity of money, velocity of assets are as fast as physics allow. This is what nerd pilled me on building this. Like, it’s a physics problem. It’s a massive finance problem. It’s a really fun engineering, low latency.
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04:12
And did you feel that you had missed it somehow?
Speaker: 2
04:16
When I when I had my ai of eureka moment and I did the back of the envelope calculation for design, I’m like, oh, this is a thousand times faster than ETH. And when I started talking to folks in the ETH community, they’re focused on settlement. Settlement doesn’t have these latency problems. You can do settlement in minutes. Yeah.
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04:34
And that’s fine. So I always felt that, you know, Ethereum being world settlement layer, Solana is the world’s execution layer. And, you know, I
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04:45
So far so good?
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04:46
Yeah. So far so good. Execution is where all the money’s made. So I think we’re on the right track. And a fast execution engine can also do settlement. That’s kind of a feature.
Speaker: 0
04:56
So You’ve been super critical about two projects, meh coins, even though they do throw off, I think, some revenue for Solana, and also the idea of a crypto strategic reserve. What about those two projects, tweak you a bit?
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05:15
I think meh we could not predict what’s sana happen on chain. We called it blockchain and Vatsal speed. That was our tagline. And the idea was always, how do we get stocks and bonds and treasuries and real world assets on chain from all over all around the world to be traded by everybody around the world?
Speaker: 2
05:33
But it turns out that is a much harder legal and regulation problem than it is an engineering problem. But anybody in the world can create markets for anything, including meme coins, including NFTs, and those things took off. I think in part because of how slow regulation was to catch up.
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05:51
Which makes it annoying that those
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05:53
are the things that come out instead of your true mission.
Speaker: 2
05:55
Meh. For sure.
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05:57
We saw,
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05:57
we saw Dina from NASDAQ here yesterday. She announced the tokenization of, securities that were sana trade on the exchange. There seemed to be a lot of regulated exchanges and businesses that come from that kind of deeply regulated background starting to experiment with blockchain technology.
Speaker: 3
06:14
Do you think they’re going to be advantaged or disadvantaged given where they’re coming from? Does the lock in with regulators, the relationship with regulators, the lock in with the market participants give them some leg up? Or do you think that the disruptors are ultimately gonna be able to operate more freely and more quickly?
Speaker: 2
06:28
This is the big challenge. I think the advantage that we have that we are very nimble and we can operate everywhere in the world, the advantage that they have is that they’re already regulated. They’re they’re already operating with those assets that we want on chain in Ai States. But they don’t have global availability. Vatsal is still in this little sandbox.
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06:49
So we’ll see what happens. I think once the regulators allow, public keys ai cryptography to manage and transfer assets, That’s the interface that you can wrap around and start moving fun you know, start moving anything from inside Nasdaq to Solana and vice versa. Like, once that interface exists, I think you kind of the genie’s out of the bottle. You know, the the toothpaste is out of the tube.
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07:13
Do you ever meet with the regulated exchanges and are there ways to kind of build integration and partnership that benefits both?
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07:19
Yeah. Of course. Yeah. So we’ve we’ve talked to folks, I think, across the spectrum ram banks to regulated exchanges and and regulators themselves. Solana is fundamentally a protocol. It’s like an email standard. It’s a bunch of software. The people that run it don’t report to me.
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07:35
I can’t fire them, so Ai can’t stop it if I wanted to. And if we succeed, if the protocol is awesome and globally synchronous and super fast, Nasdaq would make more money by just running a Solana node and integrating with it more directly. So, like, to me, it’s ultimately a win win. We’re never sana build an exchange that is onboarding US institutions and serving US customers.
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07:57
We want Nasdaq to do that and to run it on Solana, and that would be great.
Speaker: 4
08:01
There’s, there’s a common claim by the masses, meaning, masses meaning not everybody that’s sort of all in on crypto, that it’s still extremely complicated to understand. You know, even if it’s ai just minting and burning or, you know, yield farming, you say it to just ai the norm core person and their eyes glaze over.
Speaker: 4
08:20
What’s the turn in the abstraction of all of this stuff that makes crypto truly mass market?
Speaker: 2
08:28
I actually think that the human brain has to change to adjust to it. I agree with you. It’s really complicated, but I landed in The States in 1992 from The USSR effectively and there’s no way my parents could understand what a web link was. Yeah. Right? So it it’s all whenever you have new technology, it just takes people a long time to adopt it and build a mental model for it. But now they do.
Speaker: 2
08:51
They understand the web after years of of using it. So I think as stablecoins proliferate to the back office in a lot of companies, people will figure out, oh, the secret key is actually really important. I need hardware. I need PKI. I need trusted displays, all of the security stuff. And they will build a mental model for cryptography, having true ownership over something that is globally transferable.
Speaker: 4
09:15
I saw a chart recently that showed that the number of l one and l two projects keep growing year over year over ai the last three or four years. Why is that happening?
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09:25
I ai I think because this
Speaker: 4
09:27
What what need are they filling?
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09:29
Well, I think the opportunity is so big to be the Google of finance. Right? If you’re like the one place where all of finance, all markets run, that is a massive opportunity. So I think people are gonna keep launching l ones and l twos and all competitive. They’re all competing with Solana, and that’s fine.
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09:47
I love competition, until somebody wins it. I think as long as relays are focused on improving the product, making it faster, cheaper, more reliable, we have a really good shot of becoming that global execution engine that’s serving all of finance.
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10:03
Outside of finance, what do you think is the vertical that has the most promise over the next five years?
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10:11
In crypto or in general?
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10:13
In crypto. Whether it’s for Solana or any crypto project, where do you think people aren’t putting enough attention?
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10:22
I think all the stuff that people have tried, it’s kinda like early ninety days experimentation, Frontster, all of those things failed until there was a critical mass of people that understood how the web works, and then Facebook took off. So I think even the weird experiments with NFTs being a way to create a community of artists to build a movie or story and create true new Ai.
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10:43
All that will happen just five years from now or ten years once we hit critical meh.
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10:49
So a lot of false starts. Yeah. And somewhere in that graveyard, you might find some really good ideas.
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10:54
Absolutely.
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10:55
Just like what happened. And then the social network concept always seemed to me to be such a winner, you know, whether it would be ai a dig or a Reddit format where you could vote things up with a cryptocurrency. Your comments were somehow related to that. And there were a couple of little experiments I remember looking at for investment, but candidly, I didn’t think the founders would pull it off and I was right in that case.
Speaker: 0
11:16
Is that the one that you think could break out if Elon put into X, Dogecoin or put in Solana and there was some sort of currency inherent to the objects and the behaviors?
Speaker: 2
11:27
I personally think that you could build a competitive product to TikTok with crypto if the magic you caught that kind of lightning in a bottle because the monetization mechanism with crypto is so different than the ad based one. And the ad based one kind of creates this forcing function for a lot of spam and duplication to ai to the top.
Speaker: 4
11:47
How would that work? Just describe your product thinking there, that new kind of experience. How do you think it would work?
Speaker: 2
11:53
Ai think you’re kind of seeing some of these things play out with meme coins, where you have creators that are associated with a coin that continues to have arya cap and traction. And now the regulatory environment isn’t here ai to clearly tie the success of that creator to the value of that coin.
Speaker: 2
12:10
You need to remove a whole bunch of bottlenecks there, but the product exists. People watch that particular creator ram and go buy that coin. Like, once it’s once it actually looks like an investment thing that Jason would be ai, okay, I have all legal protection to actually put money in here.
Speaker: 2
12:27
Ai think
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12:28
This is related to the financing question I was asking Neil and Ari about, which is, can creators raise funding this way? And then can they deploy that funding, but then the coin holders can actually have equity in that project and in the performance of that project over ai, rather than it just be, you know If
Speaker: 2
12:44
if the regulatory environment changes, like, people have been dancing around this, but, like, there’s this project that I love, Klainosaurus. It’s these cute little dinosaurs that are they’ve that, like, kids love. It looks like a Pixar dinosaur. They’ve won awards for their animations, and they raised funding because they created this collective set of ai.
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13:03
Now, it would be awesome if those dinos could actually have copyright and revenue association ai the future, but like, we can’t do that yet and that’s frustrating, but it could totally happen once we have enough clarity.
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13:15
Just imagine ai we we bought collectibles and if we all bought Marvel comics when we were, you know, younger, but we had equity in Marvel Correct. Thirty, forty years later, those characters hit and you own it.
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13:26
It could be Beast. I meh, it could be Mr. Beast. It could also be the next creator. Like, you’re watching an up and coming creator. You wanna bet on that.
Speaker: 0
13:33
Is that the next piece Sachs is working on? Is that the,
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13:36
the clarity act is the big piece. It’s kind of a big piece of legislation.
Speaker: 0
13:39
Explain it for everybody. Meh.
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13:41
So, again, I’m an engineer. This is from my lens, is raising money in The US and trying to launch a token. We raised a seed seed in AROUND. It was about $14,000,000, which is amazing. It was, you know, ai, outright crazy success for a new a first time founder. I had to spend 2,000,000 of that on lawyer fees, which is more than 10% of my runway to figure out how to launch a token in The United States.
Speaker: 2
14:07
And because I have kids in The US, this is my ai, never leaving it, so I had to do it in America. A lot of founders actually just left to do it outside of The US. So the Clarity Act is a whole bunch of complicated legislation to try to minimize, hopefully, that cost to make it much easier for founders to launch.
Speaker: 0
14:25
It’s far too much friction right now. Yeah.
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14:26
It provides clarity.
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14:27
Our partner David Sachs launched a company a few years ago that was trying to tie crypto to real estate, like a real world asset. Tell us about what that movement is all about and what the utility is that that is there if it works.
Speaker: 2
14:43
So, people want real world assets on on chain because there’s demand for, in DeFi for non correlated assets. Like, if everything that is in crypto, all this innovation around risk management in real time between, you know, borrowers and lenders, it’s useless because if everything’s a meme coin, everything’s correlated, it’ll all crash at the same time.
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15:06
There’s no hedging. Ai? And the only free lunch in finance is uncorrelated assets, if you have true hedging. So we need real estate, bonds, insurance, whatever have you that has
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15:19
Oil, metal, gas. Gas.
Speaker: 2
15:20
Yeah. Exactly. Commodities. But, like, even California fire insurance, it would be awesome to put that on chain because then people could actually buy insurance. All those assets, if thank you. All those assets, if they exist in this kind of global, ai, giant state machine environment, can all be used together to reduce risk for the entire system because they’re uncorrelated.
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15:46
And that’s actually the only free lunch you can get in finance. So there’s a lot of demand for them. And the technology is there to leverage them. Now we just need ai of the regulatory side to catch up.
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15:58
Can I, change tracks a little bit? You’re an engineer. You work in cryptography. Have you visited Quantum Project? What do you think is the state of development in quantum computing? Everyone’s got a different story. How much is ai of hype in marketing? How much is real? And what do you think is sana happen over what period then?
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16:14
Honest answer, I feel like $50.50 within five years, there is a quantum breakthrough. And part of that is because of how fast AI
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16:23
Just ai breakthrough?
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16:24
Like You could run Shor’s algorithm?
Speaker: 2
16:27
We we should migrate Bitcoin to a quantum resistance signature scheme. This is my bet and this is because we’re just so many technologies are converging right now and this asymptotic rate AI and how fast it’s accelerating going from a research paper to an implementation is, like, astounding.
Speaker: 2
16:46
So I would Ai would try to encourage folks to speed things up. My key for this is Google and Apple adopt ai quantum resistant cryptographic stack. This is the time to go migrate because now the consumer side of it is effectively solved, and you don’t have to kind of SPEAKER one:
Speaker: 3
17:03
So you watch where Google’s going?
Speaker: 2
17:05
Yeah. But, yeah, I would I I think the the people you should be worried if you’re in the field. But for the general public, quantum computing is such a massive unlock in terms of how much we can process that it’s going
Speaker: 1
17:20
to be as big of a wealth creator if if we pull it off as AI.
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17:20
So I think this is if we pull it off as AI. Sai I think this is, to me, like, a lot of work, engineering work. We have the right people to do it, but, like, for everyone else, it should be, like, a huge opportunity.
Speaker: 3
17:33
But to your point, the the reports on the breakthroughs on the Willow project at Google are driven by AI modeling. Yep. AI is unlocking a lot of the capabilities to make it real, which seems to be an accelerator. It’s pretty powerful.
Speaker: 4
17:46
What’s the intersection of all of of that world of just AI in general and crypto?
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17:52
This is a funny thing to ask because, I feel like AI is going to be everywhere and crypto is going to be everywhere, but where those lines cross is just really, really hard to pin point. I don’t want to say something lame ai, oh, we all have agents sending money around because that’s kind of obvious.
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18:07
Ai mean, I think
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18:09
the first attempt was to kind of say maybe there are distributed networks of compute and maybe we can run distributed learning inference. But those projects really haven’t taken off and really generated any momentum.
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18:22
Yeah. Not yet. And, again, because they’re competing with a data center that is all co located, that is funded with traditional finance and those things. Ai, yeah, you can put those assets on chain, and that’s a lot of ways how Ai think things are going to integrate. Probably the most ai of singularity meh we can make is you have an agent that is a creator that is a creator that is like an x personality that you can interface with tokens and buy into and pay for the GPUs.
Speaker: 2
18:47
That could be fun.
Speaker: 0
18:48
But Bitcoin has turned out to be surprisingly resilient, but now we’re starting to see certain players, corner of the market on large percentages of it, and that was never supposed to happen. So if something like MicroStrategy owns 6%, that’s actually maybe 50% more than that because there’s so many dead coins out there. Does that worry you, the centralization of bitcoin?
Speaker: 0
19:15
And does that mean there’s an opportunity to start the game anew?
Speaker: 2
19:21
I think bitcoin is resilient to these entities collapsing. Now, it’s not sana to be without painful risk that in terms of, like, people that own Bitcoin, but the thing is it’ll survive that and all the properties of Bitcoin that people value will remain through that transition.
Speaker: 2
19:39
So if you really value Bitcoin, you should see that as ai an opportunity to own more of it.
Speaker: 0
19:45
So Even if somebody were to own 20 or 30%? It seems like there are people who actually have this intent. That’s why I’m asking. Yeah.
Speaker: 2
19:55
I think as long as it’s an open global competition for it to acquire Bitcoin and anyone can participate in that, and we don’t end up in some kind of regulated nightmare, you know, like you can’t acquire gold or something ai in the seventies, I think Bitcoin would survive those kinds of shocks.
Speaker: 4
20:13
Is Bitcoin valuable enough now where it makes sense for I guess North Korea does this, but I was just sana generalize and say ai state sponsored ways of either trying to penetrate it, hack it, take individual accounts, ai, it just seems like there’s an emergent trend here of this.
Speaker: 2
20:30
It is, its beauty is that it’s the simplest protocol you can build. Because it is focused on just settlement, it’s very easy to understand from an engineering point of view and, proof of work is kind of a I don’t know. It is a brilliant It’s
Speaker: 4
20:45
a masterpiece.
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20:46
Yeah.
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20:46
It’s a masterpiece in terms of, like, elegance and simplicity, and it’s very robust to, I think, all sorts of attacks. Now that doesn’t mean that, you know, you can’t have an attack that could cause, you know, rollback that’s unexpected, but I think it’s extremely hard to pull off, very ai, and the internet is so super connected that it can automatically kind of respond and take action.
Speaker: 1
21:09
Well,
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21:09
I I actually meant more just like, you know, states targeting accounts that have large Bitcoin holdings and trying to figure out who owns them and then just basically getting them to give them the coins.
Speaker: 2
21:19
Yeah. The those kind of state sponsored wrench attacks, Ai think what, like, we should do, ai in the in the West, is really have strong opinions about property rights and how important they arya, and how foundational they are to wealth creation in in the Ai and America.
Speaker: 0
21:38
I completely
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21:39
agree with this.
Speaker: 2
21:39
And this is our best defense.
Speaker: 4
21:41
I completely agree with this. And be hyper transparent who owns the coins. Because then it’s like you can’t take away something that everybody knows you own. But when you try to hide your ownership of it, more likely it’s easier for somebody to take it away.
Speaker: 2
21:53
I think privacy is a ai, so it’s somebody’s right
Speaker: 1
21:55
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
21:55
To to be able to do that, but I think our best bet in, you know, wealth creation is actually defending these rights and defending the right of somebody to to own Bitcoin if they want to.
Speaker: 0
22:04
It’s extraordinary that it hasn’t been hacked with so much at stake. Maybe you could speak to it as just a an architect yourself and and
Speaker: 2
22:13
It is. It the reason it hasn’t been hacked is because it’s so simple. And, you know, as an engineer, you always strive for simplicity to achieve a certain outcome. You can’t always always achieve that. Solana is much more complicated because the outcome we’re ai is hyper performance, and it’s just hard.
Speaker: 2
22:30
So, like, Solana is much more complicated as a result of that. But Bitcoin is designed for a very simple settlement layer that is, I think, you know, the coolest thing the coolest piece of software written in the last twenty years is, I would say, the Bitcoin, like, Nakamoto implementation.
Speaker: 4
22:46
There’s been an enormous, re animation in the ETH market recently. Where do you think that comes from? Is that market driven and speculatively bryden? Or do you think that there’s a meh reimagining of where ETH lives in, you know, between Bitcoin over here and Solana over here?
Speaker: 2
23:05
Ai, like, honestly a huge fan of Ethereum. Like, I think Vitalik is an amazing person, amazing engineer, and has a very strong vision. It’s very different from my vision for Sana, and it’s really cool to see those two play out. If I could predict what I do could cause a price change, I’d be a lot more successful.
Speaker: 4
23:25
Well, you’ve been pretty successful too.
Speaker: 2
23:26
But, ai, we’ve it’s just really, really hard to attribute
Speaker: 1
23:30
the work that you do. Okay.
Speaker: 4
23:31
So look, your transaction network is quite liquid. It’s sana become more and more and more as you have more validators, more clients, all that stuff. Another market that seems has built a monopoly or a duopoly around transactions who’s a little bit at risk is Visa, Mastercard. What do you think about that?
Speaker: 2
23:50
My my, like, contrary opinion is that I think Visa and Mastercard are more technology companies. And if you look at their, like, profit margin on the gross payment volume, it’s ai 10 basis points. It’s like vapor. I think the the issuer and receiver bank, those are the most disruptable pieces on there because their profit margins arya, like, two percent, like, much, much bigger.
Speaker: 1
24:15
Ai.
Speaker: 2
24:15
And Visa is a technology company that owns end to end the customer. If they could remove the banks out of the loop and just do stablecoin transfers behind the scenes, I think they become a lot more successful and they can do a lot more for, you know, a lot less.
Speaker: 0
24:29
Long stablecoins, short banks?
Speaker: 2
24:32
That was Ai not an investor, but maybe.
Speaker: 0
24:35
Chamath?
Speaker: 2
24:37
Seems like
Speaker: 4
24:37
a good premise. I can’t comment on this.
Speaker: 0
24:39
Sai that’s a yes, everybody. Everybody short the banks. No. No.
Speaker: 1
24:42
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
Speaker: 1
24:42
Ai
Speaker: 0
24:46
Ai it doesn’t work out.
Speaker: 2
24:52
Thank you so much. Yeah. I appreciate it.
Speaker: 1
24:59
Thank you so much.
Speaker: 0
25:00
Thank you sai much. Thank you. You’re awesome, dude. Appreciate it.