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Joe Tsai on US-China Rivalry, AI’s Future, Owning the Nets/Liberty, Caitlin Clark’s Major Impact Podcast Episode Description
(0:00) Introducing Joe Tsai
(0:49) Owning the Nets and Liberty, Caitlin Clark’s impact on the WNBA, does the NBA need fixing?
(6:07) Alibaba origins, China’s pullback on capitalism
(10:10) US vs China rivalry: the AI race, are we destined for conflict, and what can the US learn from China?
(19:46) AI application in large businesses
(21:52) Managing corporate culture at Alibaba’s scale, Nets predictions
(23:17) AI adoption, job anxiety, and AGI views in China
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Joe Tsai on US-China Rivalry, AI’s Future, Owning the Nets/Liberty, Caitlin Clark’s Major Impact Podcast Episode Top Keywords
Joe Tsai on US-China Rivalry, AI’s Future, Owning the Nets/Liberty, Caitlin Clark’s Major Impact Podcast Episode Summary
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Joe Tsai on US-China Rivalry, AI’s Future, Owning the Nets/Liberty, Caitlin Clark’s Major Impact Podcast Episode Transcript (Unedited)
Speaker: 0
00:01
For people who don’t know who he is, please give
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00:04
us an introduction to Joe Staten.
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00:05
He’s the owner of the Nets, and he’s now chairman of Alibaba. We like innovation from the bottom up.
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00:11
Alibaba just dropped their secret weapon, twin 2.5 max. Alibaba surged 14 and a half percent overnight, beat estimates on nearly every metric. A massive rally alone is you’re adding about a 100,000,000,000 to the stock’s value.
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00:24
You have to have a growth mindset when you compete.
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00:29
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, Joe Tsai. Hey. My man. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to see you, bro.
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00:45
Joe and I’m off. How are you? Good to see you. Good to see you.
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00:47
David, how
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00:48
are you? The Brooklyn Nets. Brooklyn Nets.
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00:52
Brooklyn Nets. And the New York Liberty.
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00:54
And the New York Liberty. Exactly.
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00:56
It’s not easy running a team, is it?
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00:58
It’s, not easy at all.
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01:01
Not easy at
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01:01
all. Because, a basketball any professional team is, both a, business and also it’s an institution. You need to keep the fan base happy. So there’s sort of this church and state element. Yeah. It’s almost like running a news organization.
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01:18
Yeah. There it is.
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01:19
Can we, maybe start with the WNBA and we can shift to business and we can shift to basketball. But I think Kaitlyn Clark is out for the season and there’s just been a lot of controversy and attention that the WNBA is getting. What has it done right? What has it done wrong? Did the Has the league been doing enough to protect her as a as a star in the face of the league?
Speaker: 0
01:37
It’s been a almost a microcosm for just a social discussion. Do you sana just talk about that as what you see?
Speaker: 2
01:43
Kaitlyn Clark definitely had an effect on, the WNBA. All the metrics went up. So this was last saloni, Right? When she first came into the league from college and, we’ve seen all of our metrics from viewership, ticket sales, sponsorship, everything went up on, like, almost four Four x.
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02:04
Four x.
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02:05
Right? I mean, that’s incredible. That’s incredible. So so the so the economic impact that she’s made to the league is is extraordinary.
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02:13
Undeniable.
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02:14
Undeniable. But because of who she is, you know, she’s a a little bit of a different, ai play you know, she is a she’s a point guard. She’s she’s a smaller player. The knock on her was was she gonna be able to withstand all the physicality of the league? And she’s proven that she’s able to do to do that. Unfortunately, there’s been, I think I think it’s always good to have rivalries. Right?
Speaker: 2
02:41
You know, she she has this rivalry with Angel Reese that dated back to college. But some people would like to put it it as, a kind of a, racial thing or is it, you know, this or that. I, I think we need to look past that, and just look at the skill set that’s being brought into the league. Now we have so many great college players.
Speaker: 2
03:01
I mean, the the the rookie of the year potential candidate, is Sana Citron. Have you ever heard of her before she came into the league? Ai mean No. She I think she just broke the record for the highest three point, shooting percentage in the league. So, you know, you you see tremendous amount of saloni, and I think, you you ask what have what have they done right?
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03:27
I I don’t I think it’s a matter of just, a confluence of good things coming into the league.
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03:32
And what about the NBA? So you guys did just an enormous Yeah.
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03:36
Just let me
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03:37
let me
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03:37
but but the one thing that’s really changed that is ai to the Caitlin Clark saloni, your average fan base that watches ESPN basically, you guys are not watching women’s basketball. Maybe some some of them follow college, but certainly not the WNBA.
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03:57
Right.
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03:58
But now, your average ESPN fan base, they are watching the mainstream sports fan base are watching
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04:04
the WNBA. I think she’s
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04:05
ai phenomenal observation about this and you and I are old school basketball heads, you know, watching haven’t watched the eighties and nineties and Patrick Ewing and Charles Barkley. It’s more physical. They’re tougher in the WNBA. And every time LeBron goes up and he gets fouled, and he’s just, and he’s flopping all
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04:22
the way up.
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04:22
How does he do it?
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04:24
You know, it’s a foul. It’s a foul. So maybe you could comment on LeBron being ai
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04:29
We’re just generally the NBA product actually.
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04:31
Yeah. The I meh, the
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04:32
NBA product is great.
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04:32
And then they’re so tough and they’re throwing each other around. It’s a better game.
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04:38
The NBA product is great. I I I don’t think it’s fair to compare whether, the men’s league is more less physical than the women’s league or more one the other the other I mean, they’re both very physical. I mean, if you are sitting there on the floor, you are watching physicality
Speaker: 1
04:54
Sure.
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04:54
And and also athleticism. Right? But the game has you know, the NBA has this, committee called the competition committee. So I I got put on the competition committee. They call me and they say, Joe, we want, you know, we want to be on the competition committee. You know, it’s about rules, about, you know, ai, what does this transition take foul. So the committee is every season there they make these tweak changes.
Speaker: 2
05:18
They make changes to the reffing to make the product better. I mean, when I got the call, I’m like, you want me to sit on the committee with Jason Kidd, Chris Paul, and, Coach K. Like, what do I know about basketball Right. That can, you know, really be smarter than that. But, but what I’ve seen is, I sai as so Silver, the competition committee should be called the product committee because because that is the product, the fan sai it on the floor.
Speaker: 2
05:45
Yeah. If you change let’s sai, if you change the three point line, that is a product decision. Absolutely. Some competition Should they? Is it ai? Sai don’t think so.
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05:55
I don’t think so. When you watch the the Boston Celtics throw up 40 threes in a game, you think it’s a good product?
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06:01
I think it’s a great product because there are 18 different ways you can throw up 40 threes in a game.
Speaker: 0
06:06
Okay. Let’s, transition to Alibaba for a second. It’s an incredible journey, you and Jack Meh, and the whole story has it’s I mean, it’s written in books and there’s just tremendous lore. But can you take us back to your mindset? I mean, I think we’ve heard it’s well documented Jack’s ai, but how you got involved, what you were thinking in that moment, the risk you were taking.
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06:28
I was just mesmerized by Jack’s personality. Every people see the public side of Jack, which is very charismatic. But what I saw was he was able to instill faith in people. I mean, he had a when I walked into his apartment, there were, like, 12 to 15, sort of, very young people, roughly, you know, students that were just coming out of college.
Speaker: 2
06:53
And Jack was ai of the teacher that’s ten years bryden. And he’s able to communicate. He’s able to paint a a very strong vision. That was the part that I really signed on to. His ability to lead is an amazing ability. And, you know, he’s a teacher, by training.
Speaker: 2
07:12
He taught at Zhejiang University. He taught English, actually. You know, teachers, in a way, make natural leaders, because a) you have to communicate well and b, you can identify talent. I think a lot of teachers love to see their students and say, oh, this kid is sana do really well. So they write a recommendation, they do whatever.
Speaker: 2
07:35
And also, teachers have enough humility that they’re willing they’re very happy if their students go off and then they come back and become more successful than they are. And in a comp in building a company, you need to be able to accommodate all sorts of people that are smarter than you are and that’s that’s really important.
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07:53
There was a phase, I guess, in the maybe the early two thousand and tens where it was a lot of it felt like tremendous freewheeling capitalism in China where there was just a just a Cambrian explosion of incredible entrepreneurs, yourself and Jack and all these others, Saloni. And then, I think almost starting with the anti PO, it it it things changed a little bit. Can you walk us through the dynamics of how that changed?
Speaker: 0
08:17
And then I think it all kind of leads to, you know, the lot of foreign direct investment into the Chinese ecosystem has changed pretty dramatically. Just give us a sense of what has happened over that arc that you’ve been in it, working in it, observing it.
Speaker: 2
08:30
Alibaba has been around for twenty six years. I would say the first fifteen years were it it was a complete free market kind of, you know, way of growth. And, we built a lot of businesses organically. And then you we went into a phase where there was extreme competition. Everybody wanted to do e commerce. Why?
Speaker: 2
08:54
It’s because if you have traffic online, e commerce was the best way to monetize your traffic. And today, in today’s market, we have five or six very, very strong competitors, including the parent company of TikTok, ByteDance. They’re doing e commerce. They’re not known as an e commerce company, but they are one of our fiercest competitors.
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09:12
So there’s a you go through a period of extreme competition, then the government felt that this sector has gotten out of line a little bit. First, there’s too much competition and then there are some platforms that have exhibited monopolistic behavior. So then there was a, you know, people may call it a crackdown, whatever.
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09:37
More regulations came in. Regulations, some of the regulations are very good actually. They protected privacy, anti monopoly type regulation. And now we kind of are in a new normal where we arya we believe that the regulatory environment is more predictable. We know what the red lines are and we know where to go and where not to go.
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10:04
And it’s actually made, a a better operating environment because of the predict predictability of it.
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10:11
On a geopolitical level, it seems to be the rhetoric in The United Ai, what they keep drilling into Americans is to look at China as an existential threat to America, that we’re rivals, that we cannot operate and lead the world to prosperity. What do you think? I I I
Speaker: 2
10:33
don’t agree with that view of, the world. I’d be interested in your view, David. I mean, I don’t believe in either. Ai mean, I’m Sai don’t
Speaker: 1
10:41
know why this has to be the only dialogue we have is that we arya bitter rivals.
Speaker: 2
10:46
Yeah. I mean, look at this. The I I think I Ai I could understand why sitting here in America, you look at the rise of China over the last twenty years, twenty five years, China has become strong in terms of, manufacturing. That’s why it’s such an export juggernaut. It has become because of the economic development, it’s, you know, Ai has become a technology juggernaut as well.
Speaker: 2
11:11
And the fear is, well, all that stuff, economic strength and technology strength, is sana flow into military strength and that becomes kind of a national security issue. I I understand that. I I get it. But I think it’s, it ai are the two largest economies in the world. And I think you just need to take a step back and say, well, yeah, on the one hand, we should compete with China. Right? That’s fine.
Speaker: 2
11:39
Our comp the ai companies compete with the Chinese Internet companies globally. But then on the other hand, there there is just so many trouble spots in the world, that what did president Trump say that he stopped seven wars? Right?
Speaker: 0
11:55
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
11:56
Okay. Well, China has didn’t start any of them. China has not started a war in the last, how many years? You know, thirty years, forty years. I think, China was part of the Korean Ram, maybe the Vietnam War, but that was a long time ago in history. So in a way, Ai, you know, if you observe the behavior of the the Chinese people and the Chinese state, it’s a very peaceful nation.
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12:24
China cares about its own economic development. They care about, the well-being of its citizens. And, I think there’s a lot of friction in in the in the course of competition where China feels that The United States is trying to contain China and and stop the rise of China economically.
Speaker: 0
12:44
Just speaking about the the welfare of its citizens, you mentioned ByteDance. I think it was reported ByteDance revenue just passed Meta’s revenue. I mean, it’s a juggernaut.
Speaker: 2
12:54
It’s a private company sai I don’t know. You’re telling Yeah.
Speaker: 0
12:56
Yeah. They they actually release it but Yeah. One of the core products, TikTok, it’s a fundamentally different product here than in than in China. And because of that regulation and a focus on the welfare of its citizens, there’s like strict rules in terms of the content and the curation and the algorithms.
Speaker: 0
13:13
Whereas here, you know, it’s like cat videos and like, you know, all kinds of nonsense. Although now Ai noticed that TikTok put a stem section inside of TikTok in the American product for whatever reason. There’s a wherewithal that China has to think about its citizenry like that.
Speaker: 0
13:30
And I’m just curious how do we embrace more of that principle Because that sort of gets lost in the future.
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13:38
Such a good question. Yeah.
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13:39
What can we learn from China? Yeah.
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13:40
Yeah. What should we be doing more of that China does?
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13:43
Well, first, education. I mean, you have an extremely highly educated population. And, you you know, you talk to every Chinese parent, they want their kids to take the college entrance exam and get into the best universities. You know, if they sana send their kids away to school, they sana go to the Ivy League or Stanford or, you know, all that.
Speaker: 2
14:06
So I I think I think the emphasis on education, I think there are some structural issues here in The United States, like the teachers union that is getting in the way. But but But there are no teachers unions in Ai, so
Speaker: 1
14:25
David, what’s your David, I’m curious looking at this, not in any official capacity, but kind of the same question Chamath and I are sort of probing about here. What is your take on America and China succeeding together? And are we destined to be in conflict with this country forever, or is there a path forward with our incredible, amazing, dynamic president Trump?
Speaker: 3
14:53
Well, I think, you know, professor Mearsheimer explained it at all in Summit last year that The US and China are in a high-tech competition. They’re in a security competition, economic competition. And the reason is because China’s become rich and powerful. And The United States does not tolerate pure competitors.
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15:09
We sana to be the number one country. We want to be the most powerful country. The balance of power is, to some degree, a zero sum game. Economics or not, but power is. And the the history of The United States is we sana to be number one, and we don’t we don’t like having pure competitors.
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15:24
And, I mean, that’s the bottom line. Now, I mean, there are good reasons for this. We live in an anarchic world, meaning there’s no higher authority. If you get in trouble in the global system, you can’t call 911. And so countries privilege their survival over all their considerations, and the way to survive in the international system is to be powerful.
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15:44
And you measure your power based on the gap between you and the next most powerful country. And I think that twenty years ago, China wasn’t seen as a threat because it wasn’t rich and powerful, but now it is. And I think that’s what’s led to a much more hawkish environment in Washington.
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16:00
And Ai, you know, I can’t disagree with all of it because I think it’s very important that The United States win the AI race. We don’t want China, for example, to dominate in AI or or in chips. We want the as Americans, we want The United States to be the most powerful country.
Speaker: 3
16:15
Now, if I were Chinese, I would want China to be the most powerful country, and I don’t have any resentment towards Chinese people who want their country the most powerful country. So, there’s no animosity in saying this, but I want The US to be the most powerful country. And, you know, in my little part of the world, that means winning the AI race.
Speaker: 2
16:35
Can I, respond to that?
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16:37
Yeah.
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16:37
Yeah. I I think it’s really important that the, as an you, you know, you as a patriotic American, you want America to win. But I think when it comes to AI, there’s no such thing as winning the race. I think it’s a long meh. And, you know, you could just see by these model companies, every week there’s a model that’s leading but then the next week another model overtakes them. Right?
Speaker: 2
17:03
So, and the other thing is it’s, AI is one of those, we haven’t figured out what is the business model is. But in our business in e commerce, we have a marketplace model with network ai. But I’m not sure if the development models has those network effects that means winner take all, right? So I don’t think AI is a winner take all field.
Speaker: 2
17:30
I think what ai definition of winning, you know, is not who comes up with the strongest AI model, but who can adopt it faster. And I think, people here in The United States, a lot of resources should go into adoption and diffusion of the technology as opposed to just plowing, you know, Ai mean literally each of the hyperscaler companies is in each of them is investing something like $80,000,000,000 a year.
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18:05
But, you know, I I think if you look at China, a couple things are going on. Number one, China has espoused open source. And and second, a lot of the companies, including ourselves, have launched models that are smaller, you know, not the trillion parameter models but, you know, we have a model that’s 1,700,000,000 parameters, another that’s four, another that’s 8,000,000,000 for ai mobile devices and laptops.
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18:33
So with these types of development, I think it’s more conducive to faster adoption.
Speaker: 3
18:42
Yeah.
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18:42
You want AI to proliferate. So so now, you know, you look at Ai, you know, I’m not saying China technologically is winning in the model war, but in terms of the actual application and also people benefiting from AI, it is, is made a lot of, development. I I’ve seen a survey, of Chinese firms last year, only 8% have are using Ai, were using AI in their business. Now that number is approaching half, 50%.
Speaker: 2
19:16
So the adoption rate has been fairly fast. And I think that the two countries AI is such an important element of life. It’s almost like air. Right. Right?
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19:30
And, why would any one country say we have sole claim to to We we we should, there’s so many things that AI can do that that could, you know, in medicine, in in biology, that, you know, we we I think there’s a lot of room for cooperation.
Speaker: 0
19:47
Joe, one of the key questions that everybody asks when we talk about AI ai whether you spin your own models, which you do, which you’ve done a good job and some people just take them off the shelf is the actual net impact in the operations of the business. Does it change the number of people you hire? At what level does it change it? Does it change the efficiency?
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20:05
Does it change the way you think about certain jobs? What’s the practical application that it’s doing for you guys on the ground inside of Alibaba?
Speaker: 2
20:14
Yeah. The, Ai I definitely made our operations more more efficient. So we we actually can we don’t have to hire as many people. Ai still I’m on this sort of mission to, write our quarterly earnings release with AI, and and maybe just You need to
Speaker: 0
20:33
have a model right?
Speaker: 2
20:34
Yeah. Put yeah. And and also put, AI on the on the analyst conference call, see if people can, you know, tell the difference. But anyway, then then they’ll get rid of everybody in the finance department. But, the the most the biggest ai AI has made is with our, we incorporate AI into all of our consumer facing apps.
Speaker: 2
20:57
So we’re in e commerce, we’re in maps, we have a food food delivery business. Sana, once once you infuse AI, the consumer have a massively better experience and that generate more user base for us. Sai so we are seeing the impact, from the, sort of the the uplift on the on the revenue side.
Speaker: 0
21:18
Is is the workforce then naturally attriting as more and more of the workload is
Speaker: 2
21:23
Yeah. We haven’t, you know, announced any layoffs because of AI. Right. But I think, you know, I keep asking our our engineering leads about how, how much of the code is written by AI today. I think the answer I get is all over the map depending on which department you make, you you ask, but Ai think it’s maybe 30% at this point. Already?
Speaker: 2
21:47
Yeah. Already. I’m doing kind of a weighted average of Yeah. Different Yeah.
Speaker: 0
21:54
Alibaba is an enormous business. It’s in so many countries around the world. How do you build a culture? How do you manage, like, just the insanity of having so many employees, so many needs, so many issues? How do you deal with it?
Speaker: 2
22:08
Focus. So I came into the chair you know, I was sort of ai of phasing out. I was focused on the Brooklyn Nets. Then about a year and a half ago, I came back into the chairmanship of the company. The first thing I said is, we we can’t talk about our company as being in six different businesses. It’s just too confusing.
Speaker: 2
22:26
We’re in two businesses, ecommerce and cloud computing, you know, with an AI element in it. Those are our two businesses, core business. And and so having that focus was absolutely crucial to get our people, our teams to focus and and execute.
Speaker: 0
22:43
Maybe end with just forecast for the season?
Speaker: 2
22:50
The whole league or just the Brooklyn Nets? Maybe just the Nets. Well, Ai have to sai we’re in a we’re in a rebuilding year.
Speaker: 0
22:57
Yeah.
Speaker: 2
22:58
We
Speaker: 1
22:58
You have a lot of picks.
Speaker: 2
23:00
We’ve spent all of our picks. We pick we have five for strong draft picks this past summer. We have one pick, in 2026, and we hope to get a good pick. So you could, you can predict, what kind of strategy we will use, for the season. But we have a we have a very young team.
Speaker: 1
23:19
Sai We’re talking to Dara on the last panel on how China is a bit different and how it looks at autonomy, self driving. There are tests going on there, but they want to also make sure that there is tranquility and peace in the country and people don’t lose those jobs, those driver jobs.
Speaker: 1
23:37
And so what’s the climate in China? What do the Chinese working class think when they see self driving cars and they see tens of millions of people employed as drivers? There have been protests already in Wuhan, and protests in China are a very rare thing, based on what I know. I could be wrong.
Speaker: 1
23:56
I have a superficial knowledge, obviously. You have a deep knowledge. What can you tell us a little bit about how, you know, the the government and the people of China think of this incredible revolution and the impact on jobs?
Speaker: 2
24:09
Oh, I think the government is all in, embracing it. And, in fact, the government just sai few weeks ago launched a ai of AI plus policy, and they say in 02/1930, which is five years from now, they sana to see 90% penetration of AI agents and devices and things like that in in society.
Speaker: 2
24:32
That’s what the government has publicly officially said.
Speaker: 0
24:36
Just an all in
Speaker: 2
24:36
just Just just all in. There’s really not a lot of talk about, people AI replacing human jobs. Maybe there’s isolated incidents. But in general, there is an anxiety about jobs. China graduates about 10,000,000 college graduates every year. And today, if you look at the youth unemployment rate, which is aged between 16 and 24 including graduates, it’s 18%. It’s actually quite high.
Speaker: 2
25:12
Sai there’s a lot of anxiety about about that. It partly is because the economy is even though the overall, conditions of the, of the Chinese economy is is pretty good in terms of infrastructure, access to energy, and all those things, but there is still a malaise right now because China has gone through the last four or five years of a property slump.
Speaker: 2
25:39
Everybody’s, average, home prices are down, like, 30%. So there’s a very negative wealth effect and that’s, still lingering.
Speaker: 3
25:48
Just quickly, is there any fear of AGI in China? You know what I mean by that? That out of control superintelligence, is that is that a fear or is that just an American thing?
Speaker: 2
25:58
I, we, people in government don’t talk about it too much because they believe that, they could control it better, maybe better than in a, you know, society here in in The US. But there’s some lingering fears, but, you know, I was just listening to Denis about, you know, he’s predicting five to ten years, but if he’s saying five to ten years, I think AGI is probably twenty years from now.
Speaker: 2
26:35
And, and it’s because the emphasis is on the word general. You have to be able to your AI has to be able to generalize and apply principles to scenarios that you’ve never seen before. Right?
Speaker: 0
26:51
Joe, thank you very, very much. Thank you. Great to see you. Thank you so meh, Joe. Sykes.
Speaker: 2
26:56
And David Brayton. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker: 0
26:58
Thank you, Joe. Pleasure. Thank you. Fantastic.
Speaker: 2
27:02
Very much. Thank you, brother.